1 00:00:00,245 --> 00:00:03,815 Guy: Six. It's your fucking job to know what I should buy. 2 00:00:04,836 --> 00:00:08,556 Guy: Welcome to Service Design Principles I'm Guy Martin, joined by the author of the Service 3 00:00:08,556 --> 00:00:12,786 Design Principles series of books. Founder of the Swiss Innovation Academy and Service Design 4 00:00:12,786 --> 00:00:16,086 Practitioner, The explicit Daniele Catalanotto. 5 00:00:16,706 --> 00:00:20,036 Daniele: Hi Guy, Definitely one of the adjectives my mum will love. 6 00:00:20,473 --> 00:00:25,511 Guy: It's a good adjective for this one, because this episode has the explicit tag. Each episode 7 00:00:25,511 --> 00:00:30,061 we look at one of the principles from your books, the Service Design Principles 1-100. And today 8 00:00:30,061 --> 00:00:35,641 it is principle number six. It's your fucking job to know what I should buy. So first things 9 00:00:35,641 --> 00:00:38,281 first. It sounds like this is personal, Daniele. 10 00:00:38,582 --> 00:00:43,352 Daniele: Indeed it is. You know, it's. It's one of those stories, you know, where where after 11 00:00:43,352 --> 00:00:48,332 the experience, you go out and you're just swearing a bit in the streets. And. And that's 12 00:00:48,332 --> 00:00:54,475 basically what happens here. basically I was buying flowers for my wife and I'm very bad at 13 00:00:54,475 --> 00:01:03,325 buying flowers. And so I came in saying to the person, I don't know anything about flowers, so 14 00:01:03,325 --> 00:01:11,335 here's what I'm trying to do. As I know my wife loves yellow. I have a budget of 50 bucks 15 00:01:11,572 --> 00:01:11,842 Guy: Mm hmm. 16 00:01:12,325 --> 00:01:17,425 Daniele: and I don't care that much about how it looks because I don't understand it. Culture. 17 00:01:17,425 --> 00:01:20,035 Help me do something with 50 bucks in yellow 18 00:01:20,172 --> 00:01:20,552 Guy: Sure. 19 00:01:20,815 --> 00:01:21,205 Daniele: and 20 00:01:21,152 --> 00:01:21,812 Guy: You're the expert. 21 00:01:22,075 --> 00:01:25,855 Daniele: you're the expert. I don't know that stuff. I'm not so interested. Let's be honest. 22 00:01:26,845 --> 00:01:34,765 And then, you know, the person just kept on asking questions and I was like, No, it's you 23 00:01:34,765 --> 00:01:41,275 know, I've been clear in the relationship. I'm giving you the power to make decisions based on 24 00:01:41,275 --> 00:01:48,145 this new information. Could you just take could you just use the power and know the person? Okay, 25 00:01:48,175 --> 00:01:57,175 Do you think she prefers this type of flowers or maybe more roses? I have no idea. But. And do 26 00:01:57,175 --> 00:02:04,585 you think it will be more something vertical or more something horizontal? I, I don't know about 27 00:02:04,585 --> 00:02:06,025 this. And, you know, and. 28 00:02:06,032 --> 00:02:08,402 Guy: But she's asking questions. That's good, right? Isn't it? 29 00:02:08,485 --> 00:02:13,075 Daniele: Yeah, but the whole deal for me was please don't ask me question. Don't make me feel 30 00:02:13,075 --> 00:02:15,565 even dumber than what I am, you know, 31 00:02:15,422 --> 00:02:15,812 Guy: Ah, right! 32 00:02:15,565 --> 00:02:16,105 Daniele: And 33 00:02:15,842 --> 00:02:16,222 Guy: Mm hmm. 34 00:02:16,105 --> 00:02:21,295 Daniele: that was very hard for me. It was like she this person coming back and asking questions 35 00:02:21,805 --> 00:02:29,035 where it's revealed how illiterate I am with flowers, you know, and how maybe I'm in an 36 00:02:29,035 --> 00:02:34,735 unemotional husband because I don't know what's her favorite flower, you know, And I don't know 37 00:02:34,735 --> 00:02:40,675 if she likes tall flowers or small flowers. And and there, you know, you you I think maybe 38 00:02:40,675 --> 00:02:46,825 emotionally I got out like, feeling like I'm a bad husband, you know, even if I bought flowers 39 00:02:46,825 --> 00:02:52,345 for it for for my wife, you know, which I think wasn't the goal for me, you know, in the in that 40 00:02:52,345 --> 00:02:52,945 experience. 41 00:02:53,662 --> 00:02:57,772 Guy: So you want you want some guidance on on. You know, I don't know the answers to any of 42 00:02:57,772 --> 00:03:03,082 your questions, but let's. Let's try some. It's a first draft again, right? That's, you know, 43 00:03:03,112 --> 00:03:08,182 these flowers. I don't know. Maybe when I take them home, I'll know a little bit more next time. 44 00:03:08,572 --> 00:03:13,822 But I'm telling you now, whatever question you can ask me, I'm going to say I'm not sure. I 45 00:03:13,822 --> 00:03:14,332 don't know. 46 00:03:14,437 --> 00:03:19,417 Daniele: Yeah. And, and even if you want to, to, to have this conversation bit where you say it's 47 00:03:19,417 --> 00:03:26,377 important that the person interacts, you know, then you still can frame it in a way you know, 48 00:03:26,437 --> 00:03:28,207 that is helpful. 49 00:03:28,146 --> 00:03:28,386 Guy: Mm. 50 00:03:28,362 --> 00:03:32,772 Daniele: for example Try to get in questions where you know people have the answer. 51 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:41,349 Daniele: if the person asked, might I ask, how old is your wife? Oh, she's about 34. Okay. And 52 00:03:42,159 --> 00:03:47,019 do you live in a home or do you do you live in a home or in apartments? You know, and asking 53 00:03:47,019 --> 00:03:51,069 these kind of questions where I didn't feel like, oh, I know my wife, I'm a good husband, you know, 54 00:03:51,759 --> 00:03:56,259 But then it gives her information maybe to select the type of flower based on age and 55 00:03:56,439 --> 00:03:57,099 preferences 56 00:03:57,066 --> 00:03:57,486 Guy: Right. 57 00:03:57,339 --> 00:04:02,289 Daniele: and then say, okay, so based on what you're telling me, you know, as you are living 58 00:04:02,289 --> 00:04:07,899 in the city, which is a bit far away from here, I'm going to pick a type of flower that will 59 00:04:07,899 --> 00:04:15,429 stay healthy until you go home. And at that age, usually, you know, my other customers who are 60 00:04:15,429 --> 00:04:20,349 female prefer to buy this kind of flowers. So I would recommend that one. And then I would feel 61 00:04:20,349 --> 00:04:22,809 like, Oh, this is very personalized, this is special. 62 00:04:23,005 --> 00:04:26,935 Guy: Mm hmm. So it's not that you are being asked questions. It was the type of questions. 63 00:04:26,935 --> 00:04:27,355 It was 64 00:04:27,413 --> 00:04:29,663 Daniele: it's like asking questions that I don't have the answer about. 65 00:04:29,425 --> 00:04:31,555 Guy: And you've been clear that you didn't have the answers, too. 66 00:04:31,533 --> 00:04:35,853 Daniele: And which then gives you the feeling that there is incompetence because you're like, 67 00:04:37,323 --> 00:04:43,083 if you're asking me questions that I don't have the answer about, it means that you don't know 68 00:04:43,083 --> 00:04:44,823 what you what you're doing. 69 00:04:45,135 --> 00:04:51,375 Guy: You can't connect my needs to what you're offering and say, okay, well, I live an hour 70 00:04:51,375 --> 00:04:55,095 away, so I need something that will last. You can't connect that to you know. Well, that 71 00:04:55,095 --> 00:04:59,175 eliminates this particular type of flower or this particular arrangement or something. Right. 72 00:04:59,075 --> 00:05:03,095 Daniele: so I'm extremely happy that we have these conversations because because sometimes 73 00:05:03,095 --> 00:05:07,925 there is kind of like a light bulb moment and and this is happening, which is I think what's 74 00:05:07,925 --> 00:05:12,065 happening here is that it's a lot about 75 00:05:15,545 --> 00:05:23,375 revealing that the person that the service provider isn't in in a power where he when he 76 00:05:23,375 --> 00:05:29,975 asks the question, it's a question that generates an answer which is not I don't know, 77 00:05:29,975 --> 00:05:36,935 but which always the people can answer with yes, no or something specific. Because when you do 78 00:05:36,935 --> 00:05:42,425 that, it gives the impression to people that you know of what you're talking about, because you 79 00:05:42,425 --> 00:05:46,895 would never ask a question that where the answer will be, I don't know. 80 00:05:47,479 --> 00:05:47,869 Guy: Mm. 81 00:05:48,455 --> 00:05:53,675 Daniele: And therefore, this is a very good point here, which is it's the way you're asking 82 00:05:53,675 --> 00:06:02,435 questions can change how people feel about your own and about your own competences. So if you 83 00:06:02,435 --> 00:06:09,935 ask a question where people can answer all the ways, then you will figure, Oh, the person 84 00:06:09,935 --> 00:06:14,495 asking me the question is very competent because she asked me a question when I can feel 85 00:06:14,495 --> 00:06:15,125 competent. 86 00:06:15,286 --> 00:06:15,716 Guy: Right 87 00:06:15,286 --> 00:06:20,356 Guy: . You're not expected to be a florist and be able to answer the questions that a florist 88 00:06:20,356 --> 00:06:20,836 would answer 89 00:06:21,225 --> 00:06:21,905 Daniele: Exactly. 90 00:06:21,796 --> 00:06:24,736 Guy: or that your your wife would answer, you know, because you're not 91 00:06:24,665 --> 00:06:24,935 Daniele: Yeah. 92 00:06:24,736 --> 00:06:25,516 Guy: your wife either. 93 00:06:25,985 --> 00:06:26,765 Daniele: Yeah, indeed. 94 00:06:26,596 --> 00:06:33,046 Guy: So no, that's, that's really good. I, I also go to florists occasionally and buy my 95 00:06:33,076 --> 00:06:37,126 flowers. You know, go back to our first episode where we talked about, you know, you don't just 96 00:06:37,126 --> 00:06:42,474 have the courtship. You have to keep delivering throughout the marriage. there's two flowers 97 00:06:42,474 --> 00:06:47,814 that my wife doesn't like. And I'm sure to say that, but anything else. I don't know. So I say, 98 00:06:47,814 --> 00:06:53,724 okay, I need a bunch of flowers without this flower and this flower because it reminds my 99 00:06:53,724 --> 00:06:57,504 wife of funerals that, you know, death flowers or something 100 00:06:57,433 --> 00:06:57,743 Daniele: Mm. 101 00:06:57,504 --> 00:07:02,684 Guy: like these. But then it's like, Oh, what colours that I don't know what's in season. Okay. 102 00:07:02,694 --> 00:07:06,864 And these are. I'll put something together for you and then I'll do something. And then it's 103 00:07:06,864 --> 00:07:11,274 like I learn something from it as I. Why did you pick that? It allows also for me to ask 104 00:07:11,274 --> 00:07:18,384 questions and learn. And there's a, a, a potential for education there that actually as 105 00:07:18,384 --> 00:07:22,434 this relationship goes on and I continue to come back and buy flowers from you because you've, 106 00:07:22,524 --> 00:07:28,674 you know, provided such good service and you've made it easy for me to come back that that I can 107 00:07:28,674 --> 00:07:33,594 learn more. And then my requests in future will make your job easier as well, because I'll come 108 00:07:33,594 --> 00:07:38,304 in and say, okay, I need a bunch of flowers. That's this budget. I don't want this, I don't 109 00:07:38,304 --> 00:07:43,344 want this. It's going to be this colour and it's for this particular occasion and and throw that 110 00:07:43,344 --> 00:07:44,754 in. Everything else is up to you. 111 00:07:45,133 --> 00:07:49,243 Daniele: yeah. And, and this kind of interactions, you know, that, that there are 112 00:07:49,243 --> 00:07:54,643 learning interactions too, which is I think a very good point is that if people don't know, 113 00:07:54,943 --> 00:08:01,443 you know, you can kind of give a bit of a of an extra information and see if they're interested 114 00:08:01,453 --> 00:08:06,153 in it. And if you feel that they are interested in it, then you can give a bit more and then 115 00:08:06,313 --> 00:08:10,873 they they see, Oh, I wasn't just buying flowers. I learned something about flowers, which means 116 00:08:10,873 --> 00:08:13,633 that next time I will ask this question. 117 00:08:13,644 --> 00:08:14,094 Guy: hmm. 118 00:08:14,623 --> 00:08:17,473 Daniele: So that's, oh, now I've learned something. 119 00:08:17,654 --> 00:08:23,294 Guy: It's a really interesting interaction to do it that way. And I try. Maybe I'm an annoying 120 00:08:23,294 --> 00:08:28,454 person. I always try and learn something from every interaction I have or come away at least 121 00:08:28,454 --> 00:08:33,054 with, with some extra value. So, yeah, I think it's important that if I'm coming to you as an 122 00:08:33,054 --> 00:08:39,179 expert that that you show that competency in the questions that you ask and if I'm if I, if I 123 00:08:39,179 --> 00:08:42,989 don't know something that you feel, oh well you should probably know this, then help me, help me 124 00:08:42,989 --> 00:08:48,869 understand it. And the next time it won't be as slow a transaction or as annoying or I don't 125 00:08:48,869 --> 00:08:49,079 know. 126 00:08:49,248 --> 00:08:53,448 Daniele: Absolutely. I think there is a very important thing that you said here, which is 127 00:08:53,868 --> 00:08:59,988 when I come to you as an expert, which means that I believe you are the expert. 128 00:09:00,094 --> 00:09:00,354 Guy: Hmm. 129 00:09:00,288 --> 00:09:02,598 Daniele: And and I think this is very important as 130 00:09:03,828 --> 00:09:12,888 salespeople have to notice this, like to who am I coming today among am I coming to the expert 131 00:09:13,128 --> 00:09:18,408 or am I coming to someone who's selling? Because sometimes you perfectly know what you want. And 132 00:09:18,788 --> 00:09:21,558 the thing that you don't want is people asking you questions, 133 00:09:21,664 --> 00:09:22,024 Guy: Right. 134 00:09:22,218 --> 00:09:28,428 Daniele: you know, because you say, Hey, I want 12 roses. This colour, please do it. And it's 135 00:09:28,428 --> 00:09:33,768 like, okay, I'm just coming to buy flowers. Other times it's like, Oh, I'm coming to an 136 00:09:33,768 --> 00:09:38,088 expert and other times I'm coming to an educator, 137 00:09:38,194 --> 00:09:38,534 Guy: Mm 138 00:09:38,838 --> 00:09:44,508 Daniele: which means now I'm not coming just for a service where you give me something grades 139 00:09:44,838 --> 00:09:51,198 based on the little knowledge I have, but you expand also my knowledge and being able to to 140 00:09:51,198 --> 00:09:56,448 see that sometimes I'm coming to you because I want the expert. Sometimes I'm coming to you 141 00:09:56,448 --> 00:10:02,898 because I want something from you. But I'd love to you to educate me. And sometimes I don't want 142 00:10:02,898 --> 00:10:06,288 anything from you outside of the product that I'm asking. 143 00:10:06,369 --> 00:10:08,003 Guy: Perfect place to end it. Thanks very much. 144 00:10:08,410 --> 00:10:10,210 Daniele: Thanks to you. Cheers!