1 00:00:00,770 --> 00:00:04,850 Guy: Eight. Do the penis test and think about what could go wrong. 2 00:00:06,620 --> 00:00:10,640 Guy: Welcome to Service Design Principles. I'm Guy Martin, Joined by the author of the Service 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:15,170 Design Principles series of books. Founder of the Swiss Innovation Academy and Service design 4 00:00:15,170 --> 00:00:17,870 practitioner, the eloquent Daniele Catalanotto. 5 00:00:19,030 --> 00:00:20,590 Daniele: Hi Guy, such a pleasure to be here. 6 00:00:21,590 --> 00:00:26,540 Guy: Same here. Now, each episode we look at one of the principles from your book, the Service 7 00:00:26,540 --> 00:00:31,520 Design Principles 1 to 100. And today it's principle number eight. Do the penis test and 8 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:32,720 think about what could go wrong. 9 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:37,130 Guy: Now, I'm a little nervous to ask, Daniele, but what is the penis test and is it going to 10 00:00:37,130 --> 00:00:37,430 hurt? 11 00:00:40,150 --> 00:00:42,580 Daniele: No, it's not going to hurt. It's. It's going 12 00:00:42,500 --> 00:00:42,860 Guy: Phew. 13 00:00:42,580 --> 00:00:43,900 Daniele: to be fine. It's going to be fine. 14 00:00:44,330 --> 00:00:44,930 Guy: Okay, 15 00:00:45,660 --> 00:00:52,750 Daniele: So basically the penis test is based on an old app. Maybe you remember that one because 16 00:00:52,750 --> 00:00:56,980 we are both very old. It is. Do you remember ChatRoulette 17 00:00:57,725 --> 00:00:59,855 Guy: I've heard of it. I've heard of it. Yeah. 18 00:01:00,250 --> 00:01:03,820 Daniele: Which was back in the days I don't know if it still exists, but back in the days, it was 19 00:01:03,820 --> 00:01:09,040 a service where where you could just randomly get in a video call with someone from around the 20 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:14,950 world. And. And then. And then you would meet new people in a way that where at the start of 21 00:01:14,950 --> 00:01:18,880 the Internet, which was something where people would say, Oh, that's a great idea, you know? 22 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:24,970 Daniele: Suddenly I'm with someone in India suddenly, I'm with someone from Helsinki etc. So 23 00:01:25,330 --> 00:01:33,490 really cool idea. But then obviously, you know, people the people found ways to do make that 24 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:40,510 more interesting. And so suddenly, the one joke that happened is that you would try to connect 25 00:01:40,510 --> 00:01:43,060 with someone and what you would see is basically just a penis. 26 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:43,820 Guy: Oh, 27 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,900 Daniele: Whic would be quite disturbing, obviously, because the service was not used only 28 00:01:49,900 --> 00:01:54,370 by people of age, but also by children and teenagers. 29 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:54,810 Guy: Right. Yeah. 30 00:01:54,370 --> 00:01:59,170 Daniele: And so which then creates a big problem, you know, because then you say, okay, something 31 00:01:59,170 --> 00:02:07,150 which was made to promote an idea that we are all citizens of the same world and we can meet 32 00:02:07,150 --> 00:02:13,270 other cultures in a very simple way. Even if you can't afford a plane ticket, you can experience 33 00:02:13,270 --> 00:02:19,000 the world and suddenly it becomes a thing where you get harassed. And this just shows that 34 00:02:19,210 --> 00:02:26,680 sometimes it's just important to think, how could people misuse the thing that you're 35 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,310 building? Meaning, could they put a penis somewhere? 36 00:02:30,138 --> 00:02:30,708 Guy: Right. 37 00:02:30,940 --> 00:02:34,960 Daniele: Could they write something you never could they write penis, you know, could they do 38 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:41,710 something? And and sometimes just thinking about how people could misuse it can help you trust to 39 00:02:42,130 --> 00:02:50,830 to remove some parts which maybe are not necessary or just add some safety elements that 40 00:02:50,830 --> 00:02:53,170 make it sure that that it doesn't happen. 41 00:02:54,440 --> 00:03:01,730 Guy: Right. Okay. That makes sense. So basically, it's ensuring that the users of the service, 42 00:03:02,635 --> 00:03:07,765 they're still empowered. They still have a choice over how they're using the service, and 43 00:03:07,765 --> 00:03:11,845 they're not suddenly presented with something that they never signed up for and they didn't 44 00:03:11,845 --> 00:03:19,251 want. You know, it's a if someone uses Zoom or Skype or something and they want to show their 45 00:03:19,251 --> 00:03:24,738 genitals, I guess that's up to the parties involved. But on a service like this where, the 46 00:03:24,738 --> 00:03:30,288 video just switches on straight away that, you know, you don't have that choice. And that's I 47 00:03:30,288 --> 00:03:35,268 mean, in the real world, outside of a video call that's assault, right? You're exposing yourself 48 00:03:35,268 --> 00:03:35,748 to someone. 49 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:36,230 Daniele: Absolutely. 50 00:03:36,288 --> 00:03:43,368 Guy: So it should have you know, you should think about the same potential consequences of 51 00:03:43,368 --> 00:03:45,468 that even in a virtual environment. 52 00:03:45,579 --> 00:03:50,309 Daniele: And there are very simple things you can do. For example, Twitter back back in the 53 00:03:50,309 --> 00:03:56,039 days when it was still called Twitter, the one thing that they did knowing doing a bit for them, 54 00:03:56,549 --> 00:04:03,209 their own penis test was, okay, people are going to put photos on this, okay, We're going to 55 00:04:03,209 --> 00:04:11,039 remove all the metadata about geolocation. Geolocation. It doesn't change that people can 56 00:04:11,039 --> 00:04:17,939 put the photo. But what is changed is, is that if a kid puts a photo, you can't find where this 57 00:04:17,939 --> 00:04:22,709 kid was just by downloading the photo and then reading the metadata. 58 00:04:22,229 --> 00:04:23,189 Guy: Metadata. Right. 59 00:04:23,309 --> 00:04:28,049 Daniele: Yeah. And that's very simple things. But then you can you can also expand it to to 60 00:04:28,049 --> 00:04:36,299 more funny stuff where back in the days when I was in working in graphic design, when we did 61 00:04:36,299 --> 00:04:43,559 logos, we always did a game which was could this be seen as boobs, a penis or a vagina? 62 00:04:43,369 --> 00:04:43,819 Guy: Right. 63 00:04:43,919 --> 00:04:49,199 Daniele: You know, if you wanted, you know, it's like trying to, to, to look at the form and say, 64 00:04:49,409 --> 00:04:51,929 could someone think this is not what we meant? 65 00:04:52,378 --> 00:04:52,828 Guy: Sure. 66 00:04:53,189 --> 00:04:53,639 Daniele: And 67 00:04:54,179 --> 00:04:58,199 Daniele: and you know, I have stories where this happened to to some of my colleagues, you know, 68 00:04:58,289 --> 00:05:04,379 where they did something which was never meant to to to to be seen like that. And then it 69 00:05:04,379 --> 00:05:09,599 created a huge chaos because then suddenly someone said, oh, this kind of looks like two 70 00:05:09,599 --> 00:05:16,169 people having sex is like, that wasn't the idea. How do you why do you see that illustration that 71 00:05:16,169 --> 00:05:20,039 way? And then, you know, they turned it and said, but, you know, if you turn it that way, you 72 00:05:20,039 --> 00:05:21,989 could definitely see them licking each other. 73 00:05:21,769 --> 00:05:22,099 Guy: Yeah. 74 00:05:22,199 --> 00:05:22,469 Daniele: It's like, 75 00:05:22,489 --> 00:05:23,149 Guy: It's obvious. 76 00:05:22,889 --> 00:05:23,609 Daniele: oh, 77 00:05:23,149 --> 00:05:23,389 Guy: Yeah. 78 00:05:23,669 --> 00:05:28,559 Daniele: that was seriously, you know, and and and for you as a designer, as a creator, you're 79 00:05:28,559 --> 00:05:33,449 like, now, but come on, you know, we don't have to see sex in everything, you know, 80 00:05:33,497 --> 00:05:33,827 Guy: Yeah. 81 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:38,729 Daniele: But still there are people would do it and therefore you have to to just mitigate that 82 00:05:38,729 --> 00:05:44,249 risk by, by being a bit silly and saying, oka, how could people do something bad with this? 83 00:05:44,179 --> 00:05:48,859 Guy: Yeah. And as the creator, you have the intent in your mind about the design of 84 00:05:48,859 --> 00:05:52,759 something. But the people looking at that for the first time, they don't have that same intent. 85 00:05:53,059 --> 00:05:58,129 They're interpreting it just as they see it. So if they see if they see a penis or they see two 86 00:05:58,129 --> 00:06:03,829 people having sex, that's what they'll see. And they'll forever associate it with that as well. 87 00:06:04,260 --> 00:06:06,180 Daniele: which is not a problem in many cases. 88 00:06:05,858 --> 00:06:06,218 Guy: No, 89 00:06:06,180 --> 00:06:10,530 Daniele: You know, sometimes it's even, you know, if you are, I don't know, an alcohol brand, you 90 00:06:10,530 --> 00:06:15,090 know, could be very cool. You know, if it's Red Bull doing that and by mistake, you know, they 91 00:06:15,090 --> 00:06:19,830 could even even play with it. But in the case that that that I know it was a church, 92 00:06:19,865 --> 00:06:20,255 Guy: Right. 93 00:06:20,340 --> 00:06:25,320 Daniele: you know, and then it was a bit of a problem, you know, having a church thing where 94 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:30,900 you could think that it was two people having sex and it was not. It was just someone playing 95 00:06:30,900 --> 00:06:31,500 the trumpet 96 00:06:31,505 --> 00:06:31,955 Guy: Right. 97 00:06:31,770 --> 00:06:36,360 Daniele: and another one singing in a in a microphone. But then the microphone could be 98 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:42,870 seen as a penis. And it's like, oh, okay, that wasn't so. And obviously, you're always smarter 99 00:06:42,870 --> 00:06:43,620 after the fact. 100 00:06:43,535 --> 00:06:43,885 Guy: Yeah. 101 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:48,330 Daniele: And that's why having this kind of little principles, you know, they help you just, 102 00:06:48,330 --> 00:06:51,840 you know, be smarter after the fact. That before the fact 103 00:06:52,430 --> 00:06:59,000 Guy: Yep. Well, it's true. I didn't have to be nervous about the penis test, and it didn't hurt 104 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:03,110 in the way I thought it would, but it could still hurt. As I as a designer, you might have 105 00:07:03,110 --> 00:07:08,600 to rethink some of your. Your designs and original ideas if it doesn't pass the penis test. 106 00:07:08,895 --> 00:07:13,875 Daniele: Yeah. It didn't hurt the in between the legs, but your heart is maybe bleeding a little 107 00:07:13,875 --> 00:07:14,145 bit. 108 00:07:14,215 --> 00:07:17,215 Guy: Indeed. Thanks very much, Daniele. 109 00:07:17,558 --> 00:07:18,728 Daniele: Thank you. Cheers.