WEBVTT 00:02.738 --> 00:05.108 Welcome to the Service Design Principles on Guy 00:05.108 --> 00:06.998 Martin, joined by the author of the Service 00:06.998 --> 00:09.218 Design Principles series of Books, founder of 00:09.218 --> 00:11.588 the Swiss Innovation Academy and Service Design 00:11.588 --> 00:14.618 Practitioner. The emblematic Daniele Catalanotto. 00:14.888 --> 00:15.488 Hi, Daniele. 00:16.050 --> 00:19.740 I agree. Such a pleasure as always. Not only to 00:19.740 --> 00:22.500 see how you fit your face, but also here, your 00:22.560 --> 00:25.800 lovely and beautiful way voice, and to get the 00:25.800 --> 00:28.290 chance to chat with your awesome brain. 00:28.961 --> 00:30.851 Thank you very much. I don't know how to respond 00:30.851 --> 00:33.071 to that many compliments in a row, but I'll just 00:33.071 --> 00:35.231 say thank you and say likewise. So that's the 00:35.231 --> 00:36.371 easiest way out, isn't it? 00:38.331 --> 00:42.381 So I've said emblematic today because an emblem 00:42.381 --> 00:44.771 is like a symbol representing something else. 00:44.781 --> 00:47.331 And every episode we look at some of the 00:47.331 --> 00:48.921 principles from your book service Design 00:48.921 --> 00:51.441 Principles 1 to 100. And today we're talking 00:51.441 --> 00:55.927 about naming what better emblem than that? So 00:55.927 --> 00:58.117 the book has three principles that relate 00:58.117 --> 01:00.427 specifically to naming. And as we're both 01:00.427 --> 01:02.887 parents and unlike certain tech industry 01:02.887 --> 01:04.987 billionaires, we recognize the importance of a 01:04.987 --> 01:06.877 good an appropriate name when it comes to our 01:06.877 --> 01:10.124 children. So a name is just as important in 01:10.124 --> 01:10.904 business as well. 01:11.287 --> 01:14.977 Yes, absolutely. I think there are a few stories 01:14.977 --> 01:17.407 that they can share about the importance of a 01:17.407 --> 01:17.827 name 01:19.676 --> 01:24.386 Back in the days when my parents set up a church 01:24.386 --> 01:26.606 in the south of Switzerland. So my parents are 01:26.606 --> 01:31.164 both pastors. They set up a church in in the 01:31.164 --> 01:34.074 south of Switzerland, and it was a church that 01:34.074 --> 01:38.867 wasn't yet of that region. And therefore it was 01:38.867 --> 01:42.817 very new for the people out there and they had a 01:43.257 --> 01:47.117 bit of a problem. The way usually that church 01:47.117 --> 01:53.447 calls its location in French was post. It's like 01:53.447 --> 01:56.957 it was called a post, like a post office, which 01:56.957 --> 02:00.197 made sense from a historical perspective and 02:00.197 --> 02:03.917 things in other regions. But in that region, if 02:03.917 --> 02:07.487 you called it a post, people would say, Oh, is 02:07.487 --> 02:09.857 this the post office? You know, And they will 02:09.857 --> 02:13.787 come in and and say, do you do you sell stamps, 02:14.147 --> 02:16.487 you know, and which creates that kind of a very 02:16.487 --> 02:20.327 strange relationship for people coming to buy 02:20.327 --> 02:22.727 stamps. And then senior pastor say, no, but I 02:22.727 --> 02:26.237 can speak about God if you want. So so therefore 02:26.237 --> 02:29.507 they had to think about how do we call this, you 02:29.507 --> 02:31.997 know, and and there was kind of like a 02:31.997 --> 02:38.306 reflection on if we don't choose a name, what 02:38.306 --> 02:40.956 will happen is people will choose a name for it. 02:40.988 --> 02:41.308 Hmm. 02:42.309 --> 02:44.919 And which we might not like, which might not 02:45.249 --> 02:48.279 give the right values. And so the reflection 02:48.279 --> 02:51.309 that they had, they said we don't want our 02:51.309 --> 02:54.999 members to call it the post, because if they 02:54.999 --> 02:56.829 call it the Post, it makes no sense for the 02:56.829 --> 03:00.189 people in the region. And so they said, we're 03:00.189 --> 03:05.079 going to call that location at Max's because the 03:05.079 --> 03:09.931 street name was called Max Street. And therefore 03:09.951 --> 03:13.521 they said, oh, let's call it at Max's. So it's 03:13.651 --> 03:17.401 it kind of has this connotation of so this is 03:17.401 --> 03:20.011 kind of a family place. It's a place where where 03:20.011 --> 03:22.941 we meet and where we're and, you know, like a 03:22.981 --> 03:27.601 friend's place. And what they noticed is to make 03:27.601 --> 03:31.051 that shift happen, you know, over weeks and 03:31.051 --> 03:34.501 months, you know, they had to use that name 03:34.591 --> 03:36.841 again and again and again and say to each other, 03:37.051 --> 03:39.181 oh, we're going to meet at Max's. We're going to 03:39.481 --> 03:43.948 where? Yes, you at the 1 p.m. at Max. Just to 03:43.948 --> 03:47.278 create the thing. And now it's like 20 years 03:47.278 --> 03:51.983 later. My parents don't work there anymore. But 03:52.163 --> 03:54.353 there are new people who are the pastors there. 03:54.653 --> 03:57.203 And still today, when people speak of that 03:57.203 --> 03:59.933 location, they say, Let's meet at Max's. 04:00.102 --> 04:00.392 Right. 04:01.098 --> 04:02.358 Not at the post. 04:02.385 --> 04:02.665 Hmm. 04:03.021 --> 04:06.321 Which is weird name or as something which would 04:06.321 --> 04:08.511 be an acronym know because often then people 04:08.511 --> 04:11.301 tell you make an acronym of the long name of. 04:11.861 --> 04:15.251 You know, and we'd say, Oh, let's meet at.. It's 04:15.251 --> 04:17.471 "The Salvation Army". They would say, Oh, let's 04:17.471 --> 04:18.551 meet at TSA. 04:18.475 --> 04:18.825 Okay. 04:19.201 --> 04:21.361 Again, wouldn't mean anything. It wouldn't bring 04:21.361 --> 04:26.641 any value. And so they were able to to to buy by 04:26.641 --> 04:28.951 design in some way, you know, by by design, 04:28.951 --> 04:32.941 choosing a name that has a lot of meaning. And I 04:32.941 --> 04:35.941 think this is something that we we can do not 04:35.941 --> 04:38.851 only for places, but also for projects. 04:38.502 --> 04:38.832 Hmm. Hmm. Hmm 04:38.911 --> 04:41.851 You know, when you get a new project at work, 04:42.271 --> 04:44.281 you know, think, what is the way I'm going to 04:44.281 --> 04:47.641 name the file. Each file, you know, when you 04:47.761 --> 04:50.221 have file names, usually you have presented John 04:50.461 --> 04:52.951 and then something Project X, 04:52.658 --> 04:53.018 Mmhmm. 04:52.951 --> 04:55.561 you know, instead of being Project X, what's the 04:55.831 --> 04:58.351 project name that you're going to give it the 04:58.351 --> 05:01.201 project, you know, the folder name, the channel 05:01.201 --> 05:04.351 name, so that it always gives kind of either the 05:04.351 --> 05:08.671 values or the vision that you want for, for 05:08.671 --> 05:09.331 people to have. 05:10.143 --> 05:13.303 Yeah, it's like the codename for the project. 05:13.303 --> 05:17.173 And in many cases, sometimes the the code name 05:17.173 --> 05:18.913 or the project name ends up being the product 05:18.913 --> 05:21.133 name in the end as well, because it just so 05:21.433 --> 05:24.662 suited that that product really well. 05:25.741 --> 05:28.951 Absolutely. And and, you know, a project named 05:28.951 --> 05:31.861 can really make or break a project. This is 05:31.861 --> 05:35.191 something that I've seen often, is that we are 05:35.191 --> 05:38.001 not careful about the project name, you know, 05:38.011 --> 05:41.341 and it can create expectations, you know. So for 05:41.361 --> 05:43.771 a good example is if you say, oh, we're going to 05:43.771 --> 05:46.351 call it strategy or, you know, it's a strategy, 05:46.891 --> 05:49.651 and then if you call it project, this is a 05:49.651 --> 05:52.711 strategy project, you know, it might create the 05:52.711 --> 05:54.211 expectation, Oh, we're going to change 05:54.211 --> 05:56.761 everything so I can bring my ideas about 05:56.761 --> 05:59.041 changing this and that and that, you know, And 05:59.041 --> 06:00.961 then all the stakeholders might say, Oh, if 06:00.961 --> 06:02.641 you're doing your strategy, we need to be in the 06:02.641 --> 06:05.881 conversation because, hey, it's a strategy. 06:06.184 --> 06:06.434 Hmm. 06:06.322 --> 06:09.012 Important. So we want you to have power on that. 06:09.322 --> 06:12.642 Then it starts to become a mess. But if you say 06:12.682 --> 06:16.482 no, it's obviously it's something strategic, but 06:16.482 --> 06:19.482 it's a strategy of what you know or what 06:19.482 --> 06:22.902 strategy is it? Or maybe the word is not 06:22.902 --> 06:27.582 strategy, you know, is future of the service. 06:27.612 --> 06:29.532 Like, okay, this is another thing. It's much 06:29.532 --> 06:32.412 more narrow, much more clear, and therefore a 06:32.412 --> 06:37.362 name at work also creates a is extremely 06:37.362 --> 06:42.372 important, but also a name for the the your the 06:42.372 --> 06:44.862 service you have for the clients is makes a lot 06:44.862 --> 06:49.902 of sense to a little example also is when I 06:49.902 --> 06:52.782 speak of the Swiss Innovation Academy I've 06:52.782 --> 06:56.967 always thought how do I say you? Way because 06:56.967 --> 06:59.187 Swiss Innovation Academy is way too long, you 06:59.187 --> 07:03.747 know. And so I never say as a a I always said 07:04.287 --> 07:07.857 academy and I forced myself to also when I say 07:07.857 --> 07:10.767 to my wife, Oh, well, what did you work on today? 07:10.767 --> 07:15.367 I said, Oh, the academy stuff. So that's that. 07:15.367 --> 07:18.427 When people speak about it in a short way, they 07:18.427 --> 07:22.477 use that short thing, which for me gives much 07:22.477 --> 07:26.707 more value than if it was an acronym, because 07:26.707 --> 07:28.927 the danger with acronyms is there are so many 07:28.927 --> 07:31.507 acronyms and they don't mean anything. So think 07:31.507 --> 07:34.537 about how your long company name, your long 07:34.537 --> 07:37.207 service name, your long project name, what will 07:37.207 --> 07:39.127 be the short version of it also? 07:39.968 --> 07:42.158 So in a former employer of mine, there were 07:42.158 --> 07:43.928 different groups of people that would come 07:43.928 --> 07:47.220 together for different things. And depending on 07:47.220 --> 07:50.730 what the purpose of the the group was, it would 07:50.730 --> 07:52.800 have a different name. So there would be some 07:53.250 --> 07:56.310 committees and there would be some councils and 07:56.310 --> 07:59.250 there would be some working groups and they 07:59.250 --> 08:01.380 would all have different meanings. And it got to 08:01.380 --> 08:04.500 the point where it's like, are is this a council 08:04.500 --> 08:06.690 or is this a committee or is this a working 08:06.690 --> 08:10.220 group? And it ended up that as part of the 08:10.220 --> 08:13.220 governance of the organisation, we said, okay, 08:13.220 --> 08:15.980 well this is what a council does. A council has 08:15.980 --> 08:19.520 representation from these different divisions 08:20.030 --> 08:22.910 and they can make a strategic decision about the 08:22.910 --> 08:25.910 thing that the council is made for. A committee 08:26.060 --> 08:28.400 doesn't have that decision making ability. They 08:28.400 --> 08:30.170 have representatives from the different 08:30.170 --> 08:33.830 divisions, but they need to defer to a higher 08:33.830 --> 08:35.930 power to make the actual decision. They can 08:35.930 --> 08:39.080 provide recommendations and then working groups 08:39.260 --> 08:41.090 are things where you're taking an existing 08:41.090 --> 08:43.400 strategy and you're saying, how do we execute on 08:43.400 --> 08:45.620 that strategy? And you still have different 08:45.620 --> 08:48.050 disciplines that are crossing over to join that 08:48.050 --> 08:50.930 working group. But then it was clear that, okay, 08:51.050 --> 08:55.160 it wasn't there to create new strategies or make 08:55.160 --> 08:57.830 those sorts of decisions around that, but to 08:57.860 --> 09:01.955 decide how to implement something. So before 09:02.045 --> 09:05.075 these definitions were made, the names were 09:05.075 --> 09:07.385 random. It was like, okay, well, I'm going to 09:07.385 --> 09:10.804 create this Health and Safety Council. But then 09:10.924 --> 09:13.174 then there would be some people that would say, 09:13.444 --> 09:15.454 I have certain expectations of what a council 09:15.454 --> 09:17.374 does, and that would be different to what other 09:17.374 --> 09:19.054 people, including the people inside, were. 09:19.595 --> 09:23.215 Absolutely. And it shows that there is a lot in 09:23.215 --> 09:26.365 the name and that sometimes having a bit of 09:26.365 --> 09:29.425 clarity, how we name things, you know, what is a 09:29.425 --> 09:31.575 committee, what is a working group, etc., 09:32.965 --> 09:36.385 makes a lot of sense. And the same goes for 09:36.385 --> 09:37.515 strategy. You know, like 09:37.745 --> 09:38.045 Mm 09:38.005 --> 09:40.645 when we say strategy, what we what do we mean 09:40.645 --> 09:42.595 with it? You know, what's what's the meaning 09:42.595 --> 09:46.375 behind the word? The word and the and especially 09:46.375 --> 09:49.135 for within on the backstage, kind of like the 09:49.135 --> 09:54.205 workplace stuff, that's where you can also kind 09:54.205 --> 09:56.875 of reveal why did we choose that name, 09:57.073 --> 09:57.403 hmm. 09:57.235 --> 10:00.265 you know, So we're calling this group. 10:01.311 --> 10:06.471 Committee, Zebra, because we are working between 10:06.471 --> 10:09.861 the lines, you know? Okay. Now, I understand why 10:09.861 --> 10:13.401 you're called the zebra as it's not just because 10:13.401 --> 10:18.121 it's a fancy African horse. Now it makes much 10:18.121 --> 10:21.241 more sense. And yeah, that's definitely 10:21.241 --> 10:24.991 something. And but but then there is, you know, 10:24.991 --> 10:28.771 as I'm going to steal your your role because 10:28.771 --> 10:31.141 your role usually in the podcast is then to say 10:31.411 --> 10:32.491 but that really. 10:33.784 --> 10:38.351 Context. Be aware. This rule doesn't apply to 10:38.351 --> 10:40.671 everything, and I think I'm going to steal that 10:40.671 --> 10:43.991 throughout. Because the other thing is obviously 10:44.231 --> 10:46.151 it's important to name things. 10:46.330 --> 10:46.610 H. 10:47.523 --> 10:51.273 But it's not needed to reinvent the wheel every 10:51.273 --> 10:54.363 time and to invent silly names for standard 10:54.363 --> 10:56.823 stuff. You know, Apple does that wonderfully 10:56.823 --> 10:59.133 well. You know, where everything they do, you 10:59.133 --> 11:03.183 know, it's like the latest is at the time of 11:03.183 --> 11:06.033 recording is you know, they are not calling 11:06.333 --> 11:10.413 their VR headset a VR headset to it's spatial 11:10.413 --> 11:11.283 computing. 11:11.500 --> 11:11.900 Ron. 11:12.030 --> 11:15.420 Which is a completely odd thing, obviously, you 11:15.420 --> 11:18.840 know, which there is some some some some reasons 11:18.840 --> 11:22.446 behind it and. Etc.. There is also kind of like 11:22.446 --> 11:25.116 this notion that sometimes, you know, just using 11:25.266 --> 11:29.106 the names that have been defined for specific 11:29.106 --> 11:31.746 things, you can use those. And I think your 11:31.746 --> 11:34.536 example of in the workplace makes sense also to 11:34.536 --> 11:37.776 see, you know, how how do usually other 11:37.776 --> 11:40.386 companies or organizations use the names? 11:41.173 --> 11:44.353 Committees, work work group, etc., 11:44.564 --> 11:44.864 Hmm. Hmm. 11:44.713 --> 11:48.793 or council. And what's the definition? And can 11:48.793 --> 11:52.483 we just use one of those definitions as a bit of 11:52.483 --> 11:53.203 a standard? 11:53.394 --> 11:53.694 Hmm. Hmm. 11:54.515 --> 11:57.455 So it's a bit of this thing when it comes to 11:57.455 --> 12:00.845 naming. Sure. Using a name. Having a name for it 12:00.845 --> 12:03.725 is important so that we know what we are talking 12:03.725 --> 12:07.805 about. But sometimes there is always your name 12:07.805 --> 12:09.965 that exists for it. There is already a standard. 12:10.415 --> 12:13.865 And if the standard works? No, just use the 12:13.865 --> 12:15.065 standard. Don't call it 12:16.676 --> 12:20.851 spacial computing when it's just an idea. Or in 12:20.851 --> 12:23.761 the case of Apple, maybe it just made sense just 12:23.761 --> 12:27.201 to say it, to show people it's different enough. 12:28.665 --> 12:31.275 I think I think like when you brought the Apple 12:31.275 --> 12:33.615 example up, I feel that they have used this 12:33.615 --> 12:36.885 spatial computing term because they want to 12:36.885 --> 12:40.755 define the the space that they're working. They 12:40.755 --> 12:42.735 don't they're not saying this isn't just another 12:42.735 --> 12:47.671 VR headset. This is a whole new way of working 12:47.671 --> 12:50.701 and define that. So I kind of understand that in 12:50.701 --> 12:54.051 a way. But then if you're trying to get someone 12:54.291 --> 12:57.626 on board to help them understand it, then you 12:57.626 --> 13:00.356 can't just start with spatial computing. You 13:00.356 --> 13:02.456 sort of go, Oh, well, this is Apple's version of 13:02.456 --> 13:05.006 a VR headset. You kind of have to relate it back 13:05.006 --> 13:07.826 to some other term that the person knows already 13:08.246 --> 13:10.916 and then they can make that connection and say, 13:10.916 --> 13:13.826 Oh, okay. So that's kind of what this is, but 13:13.826 --> 13:15.356 it's just Apple's version of it 13:15.798 --> 13:19.421 Absolutely. Absolutely. And so that that shows 13:19.421 --> 13:22.031 that, you know, have no wing or at least, you 13:22.031 --> 13:25.271 know, before. I think that's also that is that. 13:26.322 --> 13:29.862 If you invent a new name for it, you know, there 13:29.862 --> 13:31.262 should be good reason for it. And 13:31.152 --> 13:31.272 Hmm. 13:31.272 --> 13:34.542 I think obviously Apple has made the reflection 13:34.542 --> 13:38.532 and they thought they thought, hey, we we have a 13:38.532 --> 13:42.582 bit of another take on it. And this take is 13:43.332 --> 13:46.842 different enough that we're going to we're going 13:46.842 --> 13:48.792 to call it in another way, because we think 13:48.792 --> 13:52.512 there is a kind of a a fear of rupture. Can we 13:52.512 --> 13:55.182 say that that in English or kind of like a big 13:55.182 --> 13:56.322 difference between 13:55.966 --> 13:56.236 Hmm. Hmm. 13:56.442 --> 13:58.542 how it's done before and how we do it and 13:58.542 --> 14:00.672 therefore it needs another name, 14:00.655 --> 14:00.925 Yeah. 14:01.122 --> 14:05.082 but in often off and also sometimes you don't 14:05.082 --> 14:08.322 need a fancy name for that specific thing and 14:08.322 --> 14:10.422 you can just call it what it is. 14:10.386 --> 14:10.706 Mm hmm 14:11.452 --> 14:14.892 I think in the in the book I speak about an 14:14.892 --> 14:18.102 example from a research from the News and Norman 14:18.102 --> 14:23.382 Group where on an NGO website, you know, they 14:23.382 --> 14:29.781 had kind of a special naming, you know, for. For 14:29.781 --> 14:32.781 volunteers and members where they said, Oh, 14:32.781 --> 14:35.661 these are called Dreamers here. And then it got 14:35.661 --> 14:38.181 people confused, you know, about the whole 14:39.081 --> 14:42.051 donating process like they were okay. But I just 14:42.051 --> 14:43.971 want to become a member. I don't want to become 14:43.971 --> 14:44.451 a dreamer, 14:44.218 --> 14:44.698 Right. 14:44.721 --> 14:47.241 you know? And and so there was kind of like a 14:47.241 --> 14:50.301 bit of a for those who a bit nerdy, a bit of a 14:50.301 --> 14:53.541 UX copy issue there, you know. 14:54.059 --> 14:54.229 Mm 14:54.265 --> 14:56.905 Trying to rename things that are obvious, like 14:57.265 --> 15:00.295 donate button and saying, Oh, this is not about 15:00.295 --> 15:04.405 donating, it's about giving hope. And I don't 15:04.405 --> 15:06.105 want to give hope. I want to give money. When 15:06.125 --> 15:07.195 raised money things. 15:08.254 --> 15:08.644 Right. 15:08.406 --> 15:11.709 That's that's for some aspects. We repeat, we 15:11.769 --> 15:16.239 still need to be a bit. Even if it would be fun 15:16.239 --> 15:19.569 to have a give hope. But it still should be 15:19.579 --> 15:22.399 clear that it's what it is behind it. 15:22.995 --> 15:25.515 Yeah, it's a it's a financial transaction. And 15:25.515 --> 15:28.635 not just the Facebook hopes and prayers comment 15:28.635 --> 15:29.295 that you're going to do. 15:29.469 --> 15:30.249 Absolutely. 15:31.615 --> 15:34.875 Was I was going to say that I can think of, uh, 15:35.755 --> 15:39.235 a counterexample to this because I can't. I have 15:39.235 --> 15:41.985 to play the devil's advocate all the time. But 15:42.375 --> 15:44.955 the Disney Corporation, in their theme parks, 15:44.955 --> 15:49.035 they have created names for a lot of things 15:49.035 --> 15:52.485 which are not standard. So when people visit 15:52.485 --> 15:54.335 their parks, they're not visitors, they're 15:54.365 --> 15:58.245 they're their guests. And the employees of the 15:58.245 --> 16:01.805 park are cast. And then you have like in 16:01.805 --> 16:03.605 actually, like in service design, you have a 16:03.605 --> 16:07.145 front stage and you have a backstage as well. So 16:07.205 --> 16:11.225 they have this when a cast member goes out of 16:11.225 --> 16:13.175 sight of the public and into like a service 16:13.175 --> 16:14.585 tunnel or something like this, they're going 16:14.585 --> 16:17.615 backstage and guests are never allowed backstage, 16:17.615 --> 16:20.885 you know, So they've got all this whole naming 16:20.885 --> 16:24.275 convention around how they talk about the 16:24.275 --> 16:26.615 visitors to the park. And I think it's 16:26.615 --> 16:30.294 intentional and it works well because they want 16:30.294 --> 16:33.384 to treat everyone like a guest role. And it puts 16:33.384 --> 16:36.894 that mindset that for the employee, when they're 16:36.894 --> 16:40.434 a cast member and they go on stage, there is a 16:40.434 --> 16:42.714 performance that's expected because that's what 16:42.714 --> 16:45.354 happens when cast members go on stage, they go 16:45.354 --> 16:49.674 on to perform for guests. So having that sort of 16:51.054 --> 16:54.294 naming it sounds a bit silly. Like if I went 16:54.294 --> 16:57.264 down to the the local supermarket and they 16:57.384 --> 16:59.364 started talking about, you know, their cast 16:59.364 --> 17:01.584 members, I'd think that they've gone a bit loopy. 17:02.364 --> 17:06.144 But for Disney, it it works. So I guess again, 17:06.144 --> 17:10.704 it comes back to this idea of context and where 17:11.034 --> 17:13.134 it really works for an entertainment company 17:13.134 --> 17:16.014 like Disney, Disney to use these these terms, 17:16.014 --> 17:18.414 whereas it may not work for another company 17:18.414 --> 17:20.544 that's, you know, has nothing to do with, you 17:20.544 --> 17:21.294 know, entertainment. 17:20.749 --> 17:24.769 Yeah, absolutely. And it I think we can have a 17:24.769 --> 17:29.209 bit of a two criterias, which are, you know, is 17:29.209 --> 17:33.229 the name that you're using context relevant. You 17:33.229 --> 17:35.479 know that's I think the question that you're 17:35.479 --> 17:40.069 bringing a second one is, you know, does the 17:40.069 --> 17:44.249 name add the value in India? For example, in the 17:44.249 --> 17:48.749 spirit of what Disney those, you know, same cast. 17:49.489 --> 17:53.419 Helps. Also the employee know that once they go 17:53.419 --> 17:56.059 to the front stage, they are in another role. 17:56.809 --> 17:59.959 They are in the role of being an example for the 17:59.959 --> 18:02.899 kids, etc.. So it's not just your normal service 18:02.899 --> 18:05.059 job. This is very different. So 18:04.957 --> 18:05.287 Hmm. 18:05.209 --> 18:09.409 it adds its value. And then the third one, which 18:09.409 --> 18:12.819 will be a bit of a bit of a bonus, is, you know, 18:13.459 --> 18:16.729 does it create a sense of 18:18.169 --> 18:22.669 clarity or does it add fuzziness, as was the 18:22.669 --> 18:24.559 example of the donate button, which is not 18:24.559 --> 18:25.279 called codes in. 18:25.727 --> 18:26.297 Confusion. 18:25.819 --> 18:27.989 Exactly confusion. So if we have this 18:27.989 --> 18:31.159 physicality, as is saying, you want to name 18:31.159 --> 18:34.009 something, okay, Does the name help with the 18:34.009 --> 18:36.619 context? Yes. Does it fit with the context? Yes. 18:37.189 --> 18:41.209 Does the name add a value? You know where it 18:41.209 --> 18:44.299 tells a story. It helps people to realize what 18:44.299 --> 18:46.519 they have to do. It gives them an information. 18:46.729 --> 18:50.359 And then the third one, the does it add clarity 18:50.359 --> 18:52.909 and does it avoid confusion? If all of these 18:52.909 --> 18:55.729 things are true, then the name definitely is 18:55.729 --> 18:59.179 needed. If not, maybe just revert back to 18:59.179 --> 19:01.159 something that's already existing. 19:02.279 --> 19:04.919 Yeah, but I guess that brings up that the to be 19:04.919 --> 19:07.679 intentional when you're choosing names 19:07.324 --> 19:07.804 Absolutely. 19:08.129 --> 19:10.829 as opposed to just, you know, pulling a fun name 19:10.829 --> 19:12.899 from a hat and going, Oh, this sounds good. 19:12.899 --> 19:14.719 We'll go with that. Think it through. 19:14.594 --> 19:15.134 Absolutely. 19:14.729 --> 19:14.959 Right. 19:16.134 --> 19:19.134 And in that. Think it through aspect I think 19:19.134 --> 19:22.704 there there is a bit of the last principle in 19:22.704 --> 19:27.204 the in the book about that is this principle 47 19:27.204 --> 19:27.774 which says 19:28.164 --> 19:30.354 "Don't assume that I know how to spell your 19:30.354 --> 19:31.014