WEBVTT 00:00:02.700 --> 00:00:04.440 Welcome to Service Design Principles. 00:00:04.600 --> 00:00:14.500 I'm Guy Martin, joined by the author of the Service Design Principles series of books, founder of the Swiss Innovation Academy, and service design practitioner, the empathetic Daniele Catalanotto. 00:00:14.580 --> 00:00:15.140 Hi, Daniele. 00:00:16.740 --> 00:00:18.620 Such a pleasure to be again with you today. 00:00:19.640 --> 00:00:22.320 Yeah, it's fantastic whenever we get to meet up. 00:00:22.480 --> 00:00:23.460 So thank you for coming. 00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:29.020 Now, each episode, we look at some of the principles from Daniele's book, Service Design Principles 1-100. 00:00:29.040 --> 00:00:31.520 And today we're talking about waiting. 00:00:32.300 --> 00:00:38.500 Now, waiting is almost inevitable, whether it's in the line at the airport or on the phone, waiting for a customer service representative. 00:00:39.020 --> 00:00:41.820 And in most cases, our time is really important to them. 00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:42.920 Well, so they say. 00:00:43.340 --> 00:00:46.140 So how can businesses make waiting more bearable? 00:00:47.720 --> 00:00:49.860 Yeah, it's a very good question. 00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:53.820 And it's a thing that I have evolved with, you know. 00:00:53.880 --> 00:01:02.700 You know, when I started in service design, I was like, very driven in no way it shouldn't be a thing that is happening, you know. 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:10.220 You know, and being very much into this kind of fight of, oh, this sucks, this is bad. 00:01:10.620 --> 00:01:16.080 And now I'm like, hey, but sometimes we should let people wait a little bit. 00:01:16.340 --> 00:01:18.800 You know, there is value in the slowness also. 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:33.920 So I have now a bit of a more nuanced answer, but basically the one key element for me that comes when we speak about wait is understanding that time is a perception. 00:01:34.540 --> 00:01:37.640 And once we understand that, it unlocks a lot. 00:01:40.640 --> 00:01:45.960 So go into that a little more, especially about it may be okay to make people wait. 00:01:46.200 --> 00:01:46.420 Yeah. 00:01:46.440 --> 00:01:58.120 Yeah, so there is a, I don't remember the name right now, but there is this great guy doing behavioral economics stuff. 00:01:58.500 --> 00:02:11.600 And he has a very good TED talk about that, where he basically gives you an example where he says, so imagine being in a train from London to Paris, and no Wi-Fi, it sucks. 00:02:12.720 --> 00:02:29.040 Now imagine you're in the same train, you have no Wi-Fi, but you have waiters and waitresses who bring you champagne and who are in the most lovely dresses and costumes that you could dream of. 00:02:30.480 --> 00:02:36.840 Once you arrive to Paris, what you would say is, could I just go back to London and redo that again? 00:02:36.860 --> 00:02:52.740 And so this is a very interesting way of seeing time, where it's not just only how much time do I spend in it, how much time do I invest in it, but how's the quality of the time I have? 00:02:53.040 --> 00:02:57.600 And so I think there, there is a lot of elements that we can play with. 00:02:58.820 --> 00:03:02.440 And so there are simple changes that we can do. 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:08.220 So changing the perception that people have of the time they're spending, so giving them something to do. 00:03:08.480 --> 00:03:23.240 You know, obviously when you're busy, time flies by, but when you're just waiting and doing nothing, you know, there is even a study that is very interesting where they realize that people would prefer to get electric shocks that wait. 00:03:25.220 --> 00:03:27.360 So it's, so waiting doing nothing. 00:03:27.500 --> 00:03:30.940 So that's the important caveat here, waiting doing nothing. 00:03:31.320 --> 00:03:35.200 And so people are not used to get alone with their thoughts. 00:03:35.560 --> 00:03:39.460 So changing our perception of time is definitely one of the elements. 00:03:39.700 --> 00:03:43.660 But wait is something that can be very important too. 00:03:44.040 --> 00:04:10.480 So for example, there are key medical procedures, at least here in Switzerland, where when you want to get one, you'll get first a meeting with the doctor, and then he will tell you, okay, before we can do the medical procedure, we'll have by law to make you wait, a number of months, and then you can take your decision. 00:04:11.040 --> 00:04:23.760 So we inform you about all the risks or what it implies, but by law, we want you to wait because we believe that rushed decisions are sometimes not the best decisions. 00:04:24.180 --> 00:04:26.300 So sometimes wait is good. 00:04:27.220 --> 00:04:34.260 So similar to when you go and buy a car, in some countries it's mandated you have three days cooling off period. 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:35.540 Oh, I didn't know that. 00:04:36.180 --> 00:04:40.880 Once you sign the documents, you have three days where you can back out of the deal with no penalty. 00:04:41.540 --> 00:04:49.920 So, and it's funny that they call it a cooling off period because again, it's, you know, making that rash decision and forcing you to wait. 00:04:50.540 --> 00:04:57.080 If we look at the wait time to get a gun license or to buy a gun, this is probably also a good thing, right? 00:04:57.100 --> 00:05:14.220 If you're hot under the collar and you're angry, you've just had a bad experience and you want to, you know, emotionally get revenge or something like this, it's probably good for society that you have to wait before you can go out and purchase a gun and, you know, purchase ammunition and things like this if you didn't already have it. 00:05:15.080 --> 00:05:16.380 And there are studies that back this up. 00:05:16.580 --> 00:05:25.080 So I've been once in a, don't ask me why, but I've been in a suicide prevention convention for a week. 00:05:25.520 --> 00:05:34.300 And so had the chance to get a lot of the academic people teaching all the things that work for suicide prevention. 00:05:34.660 --> 00:05:42.600 And one of the things that really works well is kind of these delays where you say, we're gonna put in, and it's just a policy matter, you know. 00:05:42.860 --> 00:06:04.140 So that's kind of like, you know, age during this thing, you know, where being maybe a bit younger, I had maybe a view of weight being this thing that we have to chase and make feel, so maybe not remove it, but at least change the perception so that you don't feel that you weight. 00:06:04.640 --> 00:06:14.920 But I feel that sometimes, you know, getting older, giving space for people to weight, even if it sucks, you know, sometimes it's good. 00:06:15.380 --> 00:06:20.040 And so that's kind of like how I would give a bit of more nuanced aspect. 00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:33.520 But if we are also deeply honest, you know, a lot of the waiting time that happens in businesses, you know, could be avoided easily and isn't of a profound quality that brings reflection. 00:06:33.540 --> 00:06:39.460 You know, when I'm waiting at the dentist, it's not that time where I reflect deeply on my life choices. 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:44.380 And I assume there's no waitresses bringing champagne to you at the dentist as well. 00:06:45.200 --> 00:06:46.480 And which would be great. 00:06:46.700 --> 00:06:48.020 That could be an idea. 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:49.860 I would go to that dentist. 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:51.020 There's an opportunity there. 00:06:54.020 --> 00:06:56.960 So that's kind of like the bit of the introduction to KFS. 00:06:57.380 --> 00:07:12.540 It's not all the way it is bad, but also recognizing that a lot of the wait that happens is not needed or can be kind of changed through simple things of perception. 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:12.900 Right. 00:07:13.300 --> 00:07:30.040 So talking about perception, how can we like, if there's a forced wait, if I'm on the phone to my telephone provider, or I have to go and do something with the local government or something like this, where inevitably I have to wait and there's no joy in that. 00:07:30.760 --> 00:07:37.860 So what can we do or what can those organizations do to make that more tolerable or even enjoyable? 00:07:38.340 --> 00:07:49.520 So there are a few very simple things, which then depend on if it's a hotline, obviously then comes all the technological question of the hotline system that you bought, et cetera. 00:07:50.360 --> 00:08:06.540 But today you see a few companies doing something which is pretty smart, which is a kind of a callback thing, where instead of waiting in line that someone serves you, you just say, okay, I'd like to get a phone callback. 00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:10.660 And so there are basically two ways of doing it, from what I've seen. 00:08:11.260 --> 00:08:15.140 One, which is kind of the low-cost way, which is scheduling an appointment. 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:18.040 So I'm speaking now for the small businesses. 00:08:18.540 --> 00:08:26.060 So for a small business that says, oh, we don't have a hotline thing, we just have a phone number, but people have to wait, we put them on hold. 00:08:26.860 --> 00:08:36.180 You can use tools like Calendly, where people just can see a calendar and they book a time and say, yes, I want to speak with someone. 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:39.320 Maybe it's not right now, right now, that's okay. 00:08:39.660 --> 00:08:45.760 And a lot of cases, it's not right now, right now, and it could wait an hour, it could wait a day. 00:08:46.220 --> 00:08:49.640 But then people choose the time that is best for them. 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:53.660 They say, oh, I have my kids at school between that time and that time. 00:08:53.680 --> 00:08:55.220 That's a perfect time to call me back. 00:08:56.420 --> 00:08:57.620 So that's one way of doing it. 00:08:57.780 --> 00:09:01.100 It's kind of like it's unexpected that they didn't want to wait. 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:03.300 If they could get through straight away, that would be great. 00:09:03.520 --> 00:09:14.080 But then you're giving them the solution to that as well and saying, okay, but I know this is annoying, but here's a way that we can solve this that's not too difficult or not too hard on you. 00:09:14.260 --> 00:09:19.700 Exactly, and so basically what you could do at that moment is say, hey, is it something extremely urgent? 00:09:19.800 --> 00:09:27.020 Then call this number, you might have to wait a few minutes or schedule a call and you can choose the best time for you. 00:09:28.280 --> 00:09:33.720 So that's kind of like the not getting people in the hotline first element. 00:09:34.380 --> 00:09:44.920 And the other one is when you call hotline, so this is something that happens now also is that they say, Oh, would you like us to call you back when there is someone free? 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:46.980 And then you say, OK, cool. 00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:49.140 So I don't have to listen to the stupid music. 00:09:49.340 --> 00:09:52.740 I don't have to put it on loud so that I hear it. 00:09:52.740 --> 00:09:57.420 And, you know, it's kind of messing my email flow while I'm waiting and doing that. 00:09:57.440 --> 00:10:00.720 And I'm getting angry because I'm hearing for the hundredth time. 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:02.600 Your time is precious to us. 00:10:02.940 --> 00:10:05.160 It's like, yeah, fuck you. 00:10:06.580 --> 00:10:07.100 Prove it. 00:10:07.100 --> 00:10:08.540 So this is kind of one thing. 00:10:09.380 --> 00:10:13.400 And then there are the little kind of, how would you say that? 00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:15.780 The little polite things, you know. 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:27.800 If we know that people might wait more than three minutes, how is it that these loops in hotlines, you know, are 30-second loops? 00:10:28.500 --> 00:10:29.540 Oh, that's a good point. 00:10:29.900 --> 00:10:35.460 So maybe we just have to think about a loop that's, you know, design a loop of five minutes. 00:10:36.040 --> 00:10:36.360 Right. 00:10:36.420 --> 00:10:41.820 And then, you know, don't say stuff that if you would hear it a second time, would get you angry. 00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:43.900 So your time is precious. 00:10:44.260 --> 00:10:45.520 Hearing it once is good. 00:10:45.800 --> 00:10:48.480 Hearing it twice, it really sucks. 00:10:48.800 --> 00:10:56.520 So just be a mindful guy, like thinking, if I'm giving this information twice, will they be happy to have it twice or not? 00:10:57.540 --> 00:10:57.840 Yeah. 00:10:57.860 --> 00:11:04.900 No, it's a really good point because when you start to hear, you start to recognize, oh, hang on. 00:11:04.920 --> 00:11:10.420 I've heard this horrible music before, or even nice music, even if they have nice music. 00:11:10.680 --> 00:11:23.760 But you've heard it before or you've heard it the third time, you start to go, okay, I've been waiting for a while here because this classical piece of music that normally lasts 10 minutes has now repeated because they've only taken a short clip. 00:11:24.220 --> 00:11:26.080 So again, it's about that perception. 00:11:27.080 --> 00:11:35.340 By adding music, if you're not mindful about the length of that music, you can actually make the perception of waiting worse. 00:11:36.160 --> 00:11:43.560 And especially if, because often there are these edge cases, you know, average waiting time is maybe three minutes. 00:11:43.640 --> 00:11:47.120 So you think, oh, we're going to do it perfectly for these three minutes. 00:11:48.060 --> 00:12:04.740 But the few people who have to wait 20 minutes having a three minute loop, you know, it will feel like horror because they will notice that you designed it not for them because they will notice they never thought that it could be repeated 200 times. 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:09.280 And so you know now that this is an error that is happening. 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:14.440 But if it was meant to be something long, then you say, okay, it's okay. 00:12:14.500 --> 00:12:15.300 Kind of normal. 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:16.540 You know, they have a lot of people. 00:12:17.540 --> 00:12:18.120 It happens. 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:18.740 Shit happens. 00:12:18.760 --> 00:12:19.300 It's okay. 00:12:20.460 --> 00:12:28.040 Maybe I'm a bit angry, but I don't realize it's like the music doesn't add to it that this isn't normal. 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:31.920 I think this is definitely an important point. 00:12:32.260 --> 00:12:41.220 But I'm very curious because, Guy, you have a very good sensibility for service design stuff and service experiences. 00:12:41.560 --> 00:12:59.840 So what are the things that you have seen in waiting time where you said, oh, this is smart, or where you have been through something which was difficult and where you were like, oh, if they just did that, this would have changed completely my experience. 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:08.100 The first thing that comes to mind when I start thinking about changing the perception of waiting time was something that they did with elevators. 00:13:08.280 --> 00:13:11.600 And so I can't claim any credit on this at all. 00:13:11.620 --> 00:13:20.960 This was a study that was done a number of years ago when they're trying to reduce the perception of waiting times with elevators and they put a mirror there. 00:13:21.800 --> 00:13:23.960 So they didn't change anything about the elevators. 00:13:24.060 --> 00:13:32.000 They didn't change the sequencing or the times or speed them up or spend hundreds of thousands of euro to upgrade them. 00:13:32.300 --> 00:13:35.080 They just put a mirror in on each of the lift lobbies. 00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:41.480 And then that time that you're spent waiting was then occupied because we like to look at ourselves. 00:13:41.560 --> 00:13:42.300 Fix our hair. 00:13:42.620 --> 00:13:43.220 Exactly. 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:54.760 And even on like a video conference call or something, the default is that your video is visible and then you're drawn to looking at yourself because you're always saying, am I making a good impression? 00:13:55.360 --> 00:14:04.380 So, incidentally, that's one of the first things I try and switch off so that I can connect better to people and move the focus from me to the camera, something like this. 00:14:05.160 --> 00:14:09.540 Anyway, so by adding that mirror, we're now occupying our time. 00:14:09.980 --> 00:14:13.060 And then suddenly the perception of the wait times decreases. 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:16.080 So that was a good study. 00:14:16.180 --> 00:14:25.340 And then there was another study, a change that they made, and I think it might have been at one of the US airports. 00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:35.420 And they discovered that if you get to the baggage carousel before your bags, you get even more frustrated and you say, oh, I have to wait so long. 00:14:36.060 --> 00:14:46.020 So they rerouted the route from the plane, from the terminal where you arrive, and you had to walk longer to get to the baggage carousel. 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:48.820 So by the time you got there, your bag was waiting for you. 00:14:49.460 --> 00:14:52.700 And the satisfaction ratings with the airport actually went up. 00:14:52.860 --> 00:14:54.200 And I thought that was really clever. 00:14:56.660 --> 00:15:00.200 It's lovely how these examples, they're pretty well known. 00:15:00.460 --> 00:15:03.680 I've included, I think, that one in one of the next books of the series. 00:15:04.300 --> 00:15:15.840 And they really show that, which is sometimes doing something which is counterintuitive, like making it longer, indeed just makes it shorter in the mind of people. 00:15:15.860 --> 00:15:18.580 And I think this is definitely very inspiring. 00:15:19.460 --> 00:15:37.880 And I'd be curious, you know, so from the conversation we're having, I'm kind of having a bit of a mental framework that I'm coming up with, which is how to choose when weight is good, when weight should be fixed, and when you should work on the perception. 00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:42.740 Because I think there is kind of these elements, you know, because not all weight is weight. 00:15:43.180 --> 00:15:57.860 So if we imagine this, you know, I think the first question that we should ask ourselves when we have something that is weight is like, okay, does it add value that it's weight? 00:15:59.060 --> 00:16:00.080 This is the first question. 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:13.520 And if you say yes, because it makes people think, you know, and it gives them the space, even if it's uncomfortable, you know, sometimes it's uncomfortable to be alone with your thoughts, but it's really needed. 00:16:13.540 --> 00:16:16.500 Then you say, no, okay, this is something needed. 00:16:17.140 --> 00:16:20.940 Or how can we make it something that brings a value? 00:16:21.060 --> 00:16:22.460 So this is kind of the first question. 00:16:22.700 --> 00:16:29.660 And if we say no, this is not needed, then the question is, is it technically feasible to remove that weight? 00:16:30.820 --> 00:16:45.760 So can we just remove it because it's just a process logistical thing where, hey, a few departments have to work together and they can streamline stuff and no weight will happen, or we have to buy another technology and we can remove it. 00:16:46.460 --> 00:16:47.840 And then there is the other question. 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:52.480 And so if the answer is no, because it will cost too much, it's too complex, etc. 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:55.140 then we can jump on the perception. 00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:57.540 So how can we change the perception of time? 00:16:59.260 --> 00:17:18.640 And it's only then that we can then really go and say, okay, if we can't change anything, and if it has no value, then we can add to it elements that it's a mirror, it's make it a bit longer, so that people do something else, you know, giving distractions. 00:17:19.660 --> 00:17:28.260 Or, you know, as Disney does that also, you know, in the waiting line, they use the waiting line to give pre-shows of other elements. 00:17:28.320 --> 00:17:32.500 So while you're waiting, because you have to wait, there is no possibility to not make you wait. 00:17:33.020 --> 00:17:34.900 They say, hey, we're going to put a clown in the middle. 00:17:35.800 --> 00:17:46.000 And, you know, kids maybe will say at the end of the thing, oh, you know, the space mountain thing, which was enormous, wasn't fun, but the clown, he was really cool. 00:17:46.740 --> 00:17:47.340 And that's okay. 00:17:48.080 --> 00:17:53.340 It's like you bring home a toy or something for your cat and the cat ends up playing with the box more. 00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:56.520 It doesn't want to play with the toy. 00:17:56.620 --> 00:17:57.460 Yeah, exactly. 00:17:57.740 --> 00:18:04.420 And which would be kind of the best sign, you know, if you have someone say, oh, the best moment of your experience was the waiting time. 00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:04.640 Yeah. 00:18:04.660 --> 00:18:06.680 And it's like, okay, we did a great job. 00:18:06.940 --> 00:18:11.520 But that doesn't mean that you should try and extend the waiting times to extend satisfaction. 00:18:11.540 --> 00:18:13.500 It doesn't quite work that way, I'm guessing. 00:18:13.700 --> 00:18:14.300 Yeah, indeed. 00:18:15.700 --> 00:18:30.440 You mentioned the queues at Disney, and I think one thing that they do well, and I'm thinking I live close to Legoland in Denmark, is putting the waiting times or the estimated times in the queue. 00:18:30.460 --> 00:18:34.660 So there's physical signs to say, from this point, you can expect to wait about 10 minutes. 00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:36.800 From this point, you can expect to wait about 8 minutes. 00:18:36.920 --> 00:18:42.800 You know, and giving a lot of information to the guests. 00:18:43.460 --> 00:18:48.000 So I guess it's important because there's one thing about perception. 00:18:49.040 --> 00:18:57.600 But then there's also information and transparency and reducing uncertainty, which I suppose also helps in these situations. 00:18:57.860 --> 00:18:58.640 Yeah, definitely. 00:18:59.220 --> 00:19:06.640 And there is the same under-promise over-delivery. 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:09.620 And in these moments, you can do basically the same. 00:19:09.820 --> 00:19:15.300 If you know that usually it takes 15 minutes, say that it takes 20. 00:19:16.540 --> 00:19:17.060 Build a buffer. 00:19:17.080 --> 00:19:17.640 It's a good thing. 00:19:18.380 --> 00:19:25.480 Worst case happens is the one who's waiting 20 minutes, he will say, they got it really on time. 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:27.480 They did their math really well. 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:32.600 And the 95% of the people will say, hey, they are quicker than they should. 00:19:33.600 --> 00:19:35.220 But it's just because you changed the promise. 00:19:35.700 --> 00:19:44.780 And I think often we, as professionals, we want to sell our best selves or as organizations. 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:51.820 And sometimes we should better sell our worst self and let people be surprised by how good we can be. 00:19:52.780 --> 00:20:01.720 I was going to say, it's like the Scotty Principle from Star Trek, where he says, you know, I think he's teaching an apprentice or something like this. 00:20:01.740 --> 00:20:04.440 And you say, you never tell them how long it's actually going to take. 00:20:04.460 --> 00:20:07.100 You always double it and then, you know, you deliver before. 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:09.440 And that's how you end up a star engineer sort of thing. 00:20:09.860 --> 00:20:13.120 And I think a lot of project managers and things have taken that on board as well. 00:20:13.140 --> 00:20:19.100 And sort of, you know, overestimate the time that it might take to deliver something and then deliver it early. 00:20:20.100 --> 00:20:24.880 So that might be a whole other set of principles there though. 00:20:24.900 --> 00:20:28.160 But I think, you know, it shows how these elements are linked together. 00:20:28.180 --> 00:20:31.540 You know, that waiting time isn't just about waiting time. 00:20:31.540 --> 00:20:33.160 It's also a promise that you're making. 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:36.800 And that when you make promises, you should be smart about it. 00:20:38.560 --> 00:20:43.700 And that there is, again, that too little information will be a problem. 00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:46.260 You know, not knowing how much it usually takes will be a problem. 00:20:46.860 --> 00:21:00.680 But seeing, you know, a panel every five meters that says, okay, now from here it should be 20 minutes from here, 15 minutes from here, 10 minutes, will get you like, okay, I'm going to look at my stopwatch to see if it is true. 00:21:01.160 --> 00:21:06.280 You know, and then it gets in another way, which isn't useful. 00:21:06.780 --> 00:21:30.440 But there is one specific element that when it comes to waiting time, thinking about Disney and this is, you know, I think a lot of services could steal stuff from Disney, especially because their way of thinking, you know, they are made for kids who have no patience, you know, and I think there are very good examples. 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:42.420 For example, there is one which is, you know, an airport in London, I don't remember which one, but they do something which is very smart, where they have these lines where you have to go through security. 00:21:42.820 --> 00:21:52.000 And obviously security in England, you know, doesn't feel like security in Switzerland, where security in England, you know, there you have terrorist attack and stuff, where you see people with guns. 00:21:52.260 --> 00:21:56.920 So for us Swiss people, you know, this is normal, you know, we don't know what is a terrorist attack. 00:21:57.220 --> 00:22:03.140 So for us going through security is just like seeing a nice guy saying hello, and that's it. 00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:06.540 But there it feels like a very, very strange... 00:22:06.560 --> 00:22:07.380 A different experience. 00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:08.640 Yeah, it's a different experience, yeah. 00:22:08.780 --> 00:22:19.320 And if you're with kids, you know, it's going to be a stressful one, because you don't want your kids to do fun stuff in the middle of that waiting line, you know, and shouting and doing... 00:22:19.660 --> 00:22:42.500 So they did one thing that is very smart, you know, at the start of the line, you have a little box where kids can take a little game, which is a thing on paper, and they give a pen, where it's then a little kind of game that they have to do while they are on the pass of the waiting line. 00:22:42.760 --> 00:22:58.900 And so they have cues that come through the line with little problems that they have to solve, and it then gives them the solution of the mystery once they arrive to the police guy, which is super smart, because then you're like, hey, okay, so we're going to work on this clue, and the next one is there. 00:22:59.020 --> 00:23:18.800 Okay, so now we can work a little bit on that, and the kid has to stay next to you, because there is a reason to stay on the line now, and I think there there is a lot to think about, you know, when we go look at how other industries deal with time and weight, and then we can say, hey, how could we import this? 00:23:20.060 --> 00:23:21.700 And then we see examples like that one. 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:41.820 I don't know if they stole it directly from Disney, but it feels like it, you know, that they understood that children are also a part of the waiting time and that if the kids get angry, it's going to make the parents angry, which will make the kids even more angry, which will fuck up the situation for everybody who is in the room. 00:23:42.100 --> 00:23:42.500 Right. 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:47.240 And understanding that is definitely another element, which can be interesting. 00:23:47.300 --> 00:23:49.880 I think that game might be fun for the adults as well. 00:23:49.900 --> 00:23:51.180 They start to get invested in it too. 00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:51.420 Yeah. 00:23:53.220 --> 00:24:09.220 And they did it in a very smart way, because instead of being a random game, it was a game about airport security and this kind of stuff where it taught you why is there so much security? 00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:10.460 Why is it important? 00:24:12.860 --> 00:24:13.820 Why is there a dog? 00:24:13.820 --> 00:24:15.080 What can the dog do? 00:24:15.180 --> 00:24:16.720 It's like, oh, this is interesting. 00:24:17.220 --> 00:24:20.820 So it's not only a fun moment, it's also an education moment. 00:24:21.380 --> 00:24:24.760 And maybe this brings us to another principle. 00:24:24.780 --> 00:24:26.840 You know, there are so many about wait. 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:37.900 You see, I could ramble for hours, but I will just share that one more, which is a company does that on their hotline, which is super smart. 00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:41.200 So you're on the hotline, you're waiting. 00:24:41.900 --> 00:24:45.280 And while you wait, they teach you something about their service. 00:24:45.840 --> 00:24:48.060 So they say, did you know that? 00:24:49.360 --> 00:24:54.100 And they speak to you about a hidden feature, or one of these pro features that you have. 00:24:54.660 --> 00:24:59.720 Oh, in fact, I didn't know that I could do that in that software or in that service. 00:25:00.040 --> 00:25:08.760 And so you go out of the thing thinking, hey, sure, I had to wait, but now I'm going to be more productive with what I learned. 00:25:08.760 --> 00:25:09.880 So it's kind of okay. 00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:15.580 Yeah, except when they're halfway through in the saying, and the secret to this is, hello. 00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:27.000 You mentioned here in principle 18 and 19, you're talking about using phones and being able to use your smartphone. 00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:30.220 Now, in some circumstances, that's not okay. 00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:36.000 Like in the customs line or the security line at the airport, very often they say, do not use your phone. 00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:40.760 Although I think that's more about taking pictures than it is actually using your phone. 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:50.460 But in a way, you say that you shouldn't forbid people from using their phone or occupying themselves. 00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:56.220 And I guess that's about using their time effectively or in a way that they feel they're in more control. 00:25:56.900 --> 00:25:58.080 Yeah. 00:25:58.080 --> 00:26:01.900 Another way of seeing it is, which is a bit more critical. 00:26:02.600 --> 00:26:05.480 Obviously, age makes you a little bit more critical. 00:26:07.560 --> 00:26:08.860 Most people are addicts. 00:26:11.740 --> 00:26:15.300 And you wouldn't take the drugs out of an addict in a waiting line. 00:26:17.380 --> 00:26:18.940 That would be a very bad idea. 00:26:19.700 --> 00:26:27.200 Saying to an addict, oh, I'm going to make you wait for a few hours, and all the drugs that you're used to, that you take every three seconds, I'm going to take them out. 00:26:28.220 --> 00:26:29.320 That's basically the phones. 00:26:29.600 --> 00:26:31.960 And most people are addicted to their technology. 00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:39.040 When they don't know what to do, they open it, they scroll a little bit, they go on Instagram, check their mails, and do this kind of stuff. 00:26:39.520 --> 00:26:43.020 So if you want to get people angry, take out their addiction. 00:26:43.020 --> 00:26:44.280 That's going to work really well. 00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:50.720 So it's a bit critical to say it like that, because it says something bad about the state of our world. 00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:54.800 But at the same time, I think it's not as... 00:26:55.520 --> 00:27:01.980 Depending on the businesses, it's not our place to give a judgment on that. 00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:08.340 But there are places where it's good to make that judgment. 00:27:08.360 --> 00:27:18.020 For example, there are some cafes, I know one in Geneva, where they very clearly tell you, if you enter in here, we don't want to see any device. 00:27:18.140 --> 00:27:20.200 This is a device-free zone. 00:27:20.260 --> 00:27:24.240 This is a place where we speak to people, we watch people in the eyes. 00:27:24.560 --> 00:27:27.560 Even when we wait, it's a human experience. 00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:29.300 It's a choice. 00:27:30.260 --> 00:27:36.740 Obviously, there are some people who will never go there because they will say, you're stealing my addiction, which is not good. 00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:46.180 But for many places, it's how important is it really that you forbid people to use a phone? 00:27:47.280 --> 00:27:55.300 As you said, I think the really important thing, security-wise or privacy-wise, is that people don't take pictures. 00:27:55.860 --> 00:28:03.280 I think that's true for hospitals, that's true for government services, where you don't want people to take pictures. 00:28:03.800 --> 00:28:06.980 That's a reasonable thing to ask for. 00:28:07.420 --> 00:28:11.040 But there are so many other things that people can do on their phones and take pictures. 00:28:13.080 --> 00:28:16.440 I would prefer to say, just allow people. 00:28:16.460 --> 00:28:20.020 What's the cost of allowing people to be on their phone? 00:28:20.780 --> 00:28:21.360 That makes sense. 00:28:22.760 --> 00:28:28.220 Our smartphone usage is in a way making us dumber. 00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:30.300 These smartphones make us dumber in some respects. 00:28:31.420 --> 00:28:33.480 Or they make us more dependent. 00:28:33.500 --> 00:28:35.760 You talk about the little dopamine hits and things like this. 00:28:38.020 --> 00:28:39.400 It relates to addiction. 00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:41.080 Addiction is the right word for it. 00:28:41.320 --> 00:28:48.460 As you say, stopping people from doing it, you're passing judgment. 00:28:49.980 --> 00:28:55.360 However, you can recognize that people need this little dopamine hit. 00:28:55.380 --> 00:29:03.740 Recognizing that makes their experience or their perception of that waiting experience a little bit more tolerable. 00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:10.400 Taking it away makes it incredibly less tolerable. 00:29:10.420 --> 00:29:20.700 Especially because the places where people ask you to not have the phone is definitely the place where I think people should have the choice to have their phone. 00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:23.740 So it's the waiting room of a hospital. 00:29:24.680 --> 00:29:33.500 Before getting the answer on do you have cancer or not, I have to say it's maybe not the moment where I be the most mindful. 00:29:34.980 --> 00:29:40.320 Where I might just want to look at something to be distracted. 00:29:40.360 --> 00:29:43.160 And I think it's a very valid thing to ask for that. 00:29:44.980 --> 00:29:52.320 Or being in a government office where you got fined for something and you have to go and chat with someone. 00:29:53.080 --> 00:29:54.580 It's not a comfortable thing. 00:29:55.160 --> 00:29:58.760 You know that you will be in a conversation that you don't want to have, but you will have. 00:29:59.980 --> 00:30:15.960 So giving people just this five-minute break in their life before they get into the very shitty situation, I think it's something where we can be graceful enough to say, hey, it's okay. 00:30:17.520 --> 00:30:20.300 Don't make the rules for the worst of the people. 00:30:20.940 --> 00:30:30.300 Not everyone is going to do it, but if you ask politely, please don't take photos and you can use your phone, the majority will respect that, and they'll understand why as well. 00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:40.740 And I think here you bring also this point, which is very important, which is the why of the weight, and why we put some constraints on aspects of the weight in time. 00:30:42.300 --> 00:30:59.180 A good example here again is a hospital in Biel, in Switzerland, where when you enter in it and you're in the weighting area, there is a big poster explaining to you how weight happens here. 00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:05.320 Basically, they say, based on the emergency, someone might get before you. 00:31:06.300 --> 00:31:07.060 That's normal? 00:31:07.220 --> 00:31:07.760 Triage. 00:31:07.820 --> 00:31:08.320 Exactly. 00:31:08.700 --> 00:31:10.100 Basically, they explain it to you. 00:31:10.560 --> 00:31:12.500 They say, this is how we do it. 00:31:13.580 --> 00:31:23.100 Basically, we're saying you should wait 30 minutes, but that is if no bigger emergency than you arrives. 00:31:23.220 --> 00:31:28.360 We're thankful of your patience when something bigger than you is coming. 00:31:29.660 --> 00:31:30.920 I think this is smart. 00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:31.860 Yeah, absolutely. 00:31:31.880 --> 00:31:37.900 Especially in that situation where most of the time, we expect that first in is first served. 00:31:38.060 --> 00:31:40.160 You get into a queue and then you get served. 00:31:40.180 --> 00:31:42.680 But in this case, it doesn't work like that. 00:31:43.840 --> 00:31:52.840 People are coming in expecting to wait in the same way that they've waited before, and then suddenly they see people skipping the queue in front of them, quote unquote. 00:31:53.300 --> 00:31:55.020 But they're not skipping the queue. 00:31:55.020 --> 00:31:57.880 It's a different waiting process. 00:31:58.300 --> 00:32:00.780 So explaining that is super critical, I would think. 00:32:01.140 --> 00:32:03.660 And explain the value of the wait. 00:32:03.900 --> 00:32:05.980 That's something that we can do. 00:32:07.660 --> 00:32:11.560 And explain the why is definitely also an important element. 00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:22.060 So if we summarize these different elements, so we have this selection process where we say, okay, not all wait is the same. 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:28.240 So we can say, hey, once we identify that there is wait, is it useful? 00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:30.600 Yes, no. 00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:32.680 If no, can it be removed? 00:32:33.080 --> 00:32:33.740 Yes, no. 00:32:33.880 --> 00:32:38.120 If no, then what can we do to change the perception? 00:32:38.600 --> 00:32:43.900 And then in general, we can add to that, that if there is wait, we can always explain the why. 00:32:45.700 --> 00:33:00.460 And then when there is wait, we can then also use it as an opportunity to create relationship, to create knowledge, or also just to offer, you know, fun, amusement. 00:33:00.660 --> 00:33:03.080 So we can use it as a proxy for other things. 00:33:03.540 --> 00:33:12.260 And so getting there, I think, is just the understanding that not all wait is equal and we can be very creative with it. 00:33:12.440 --> 00:33:20.080 There's another waiting scenario, which I think benefits maybe the people on the business side as opposed to the customer side. 00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:23.860 And so there's two situations that I can think of. 00:33:24.260 --> 00:33:33.680 When you have an outage, for example, and someone's phoning up and they want to say, okay, well, my electricity is out or my TV is out or something like this. 00:33:35.280 --> 00:33:41.340 And normally you would expect to, okay, I've got to talk to someone and tell them that my TV is out. 00:33:41.800 --> 00:33:58.420 But if you put them on hold and there's a message on that on hold to say, we're aware of outages in your area and it'll be fixed within 30 minutes or we have people working on it, then that may already have saved you from hanging on. 00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:00.280 And you can say, oh, okay, well, I'll hang up. 00:34:00.300 --> 00:34:01.080 They know about it. 00:34:01.580 --> 00:34:03.460 It's being done. 00:34:03.620 --> 00:34:09.260 But if you got straight through to a person, you have to explain to them and they go, yes, we know about it, so blah, blah, blah. 00:34:09.820 --> 00:34:13.820 So in that case, maybe it's easier that you don't get through to a person straight away. 00:34:14.020 --> 00:34:20.840 So that little enforced waiting time of, you know, even if someone's available of 10, 20, 30 seconds is maybe okay. 00:34:21.200 --> 00:34:27.280 And then if your problem doesn't relate to that outage, then you can hang on and still talk to them. 00:34:27.720 --> 00:34:34.500 And it may be in that case that the customer service representatives are super busy anyway because they're dealing with this outage. 00:34:35.260 --> 00:34:38.060 So it reduces the demand on those representatives. 00:34:39.300 --> 00:34:41.620 So that was one thing that came to mind. 00:34:42.700 --> 00:34:53.320 The other thing I think is, and it's kind of a paradox, but it reminds me of the outage of teaching someone to fish as opposed to fishing for them. 00:34:54.000 --> 00:35:04.160 So when I've worked in service roles before and someone has phoned up or they've sent a message in saying, I need some help with this. 00:35:05.020 --> 00:35:08.780 And you go, okay, in a way, I feel that you should already know how to do this. 00:35:08.980 --> 00:35:12.100 I'm not saying this to them, but in my head, I'm saying that. 00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:14.280 So I'm actually just going to wait. 00:35:14.420 --> 00:35:21.880 I'm going to wait for half an hour before I respond to this and just see what happens, because in this case, it's not a life-threatening situation. 00:35:22.200 --> 00:35:24.340 It's something that they're just used to. 00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:25.200 I have a problem. 00:35:25.240 --> 00:35:26.160 I have to call support. 00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:30.460 But then making them wait for 30 minutes, they go, what can I do with that 30 minutes? 00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:31.800 Maybe I'll try and fix it myself. 00:35:31.860 --> 00:35:35.160 Or maybe I'll go back through the manual and see if there's anything I can do. 00:35:36.160 --> 00:35:43.360 And then in the end, 25 minutes later, I get another message saying, actually, I worked it out. 00:35:43.540 --> 00:35:44.300 Thank you anyway. 00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:56.700 So that enforced waiting has helped them work out the answer to the problem themselves, which I guess gives them a bit of satisfaction to say, they were pretty clever to figure it out themselves. 00:35:57.020 --> 00:35:59.680 They didn't have to wait for someone to get back. 00:35:59.700 --> 00:36:04.060 And the next time that happens, maybe they won't call support first thing. 00:36:04.240 --> 00:36:06.240 Maybe they'll just try again themselves. 00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:09.000 And so there's that education and that knowledge thing there. 00:36:09.980 --> 00:36:16.980 But if I had answered the call straight away and responded instantly, that opportunity may have never occurred. 00:36:18.060 --> 00:36:18.480 Indeed. 00:36:18.900 --> 00:36:29.920 And it asks the question, you know, what's the brand image that our waiting time gives? 00:36:30.940 --> 00:36:35.200 So for example, or service image too, you know. 00:36:35.220 --> 00:36:57.820 So for example, here in that case, I would assume this is a service that is very professional, you know, that wants people to be educated, that wants people to be able to solve the problem by themselves, because it might be something quite expensive, where we say, hey, we don't want you to be forced to call us for every problem and that we have to bill you for everything. 00:36:58.080 --> 00:36:59.560 It's not our interest. 00:36:59.600 --> 00:37:10.100 Our interest is that you can use what we offered in a way that's working for you, that you can manage it, and when we need it, we are always here for you. 00:37:10.580 --> 00:37:14.760 But we would love for you to feel independent. 00:37:15.160 --> 00:37:30.800 So once the service is that, then adding that weight is also kind of a brand thing where you're giving people this moment of, okay, there are not the people that are going to answer in the second. 00:37:31.300 --> 00:37:46.180 But if I'm at a luxury hotel where basically the brand image that I want to give is we are of your service for everything and anything because you pay so much that even if you want strawberries at 3 a.m. 00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:49.400 we're going to get you the strawberries at 3 a.m. 00:37:49.640 --> 00:37:50.620 We have a guy for that. 00:37:51.100 --> 00:37:51.660 No worries. 00:37:52.100 --> 00:37:54.040 And we answer the phone in the second. 00:37:55.260 --> 00:38:11.000 But then it's a brand image thing where it's not needed per se, but because you want people to have this image of you of being the pure servant, then obviously speed is extremely important. 00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:27.900 But when we say our service is not a servant, our service is a coach, a professional, a colleague, then an answer in the second will be like the Savior Syndrome. 00:38:28.540 --> 00:38:46.600 You're trying to step in the life of the person, fixing problems that you shouldn't solve, which the person will be very happy to have the solution for, but which will never create a healthy functioning relationship. 00:38:46.620 --> 00:38:50.680 It's all a question about what's the kind of relationship that we want to create. 00:38:51.120 --> 00:38:59.220 Again, there is no one answer to it, which is what makes it very interesting in one way. 00:39:01.140 --> 00:39:06.720 It shows also that there is an opportunity here to think about the branding of the waiting time. 00:39:08.260 --> 00:39:10.100 What's the image that we want to create? 00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:13.040 What's the relationship that we want to create? 00:39:13.060 --> 00:39:18.900 Do we want to be the servant that is here every time, every two seconds? 00:39:19.340 --> 00:39:23.600 Or do we want to be the big brother who comes when it's needed? 00:39:24.720 --> 00:39:33.080 Do we want to be the coach that guides, doesn't do the work for you, but guides? 00:39:33.220 --> 00:39:34.500 It's a very different relationship. 00:39:35.620 --> 00:39:36.020 Yeah. 00:39:36.340 --> 00:39:46.200 It's been a very interesting conversation journey through this idea about waiting because I came into it thinking, okay, we have to solve waiting. 00:39:47.080 --> 00:39:52.440 Waiting is a problem, but actually what we've discovered is it's not always a problem. 00:39:52.680 --> 00:39:57.800 Sometimes it's a benefit, and sometimes it's actually intentional. 00:39:58.420 --> 00:40:01.280 I guess from that perspective, it depends. 00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:06.820