Guy: Welcome to Service Design Principles. I'm Guy
Guy: Martin, joined by the author of the Service
Guy: Design Principles series of Books, founder of
Guy: the Swiss Innovation Academy and service design
Guy: practicioner, the employee of the month, Daniele
Guy: Catalanotto. Hi, Daniele.
Daniele: Employee of the month! So it's the first time I
Daniele: get the employee of the month. So I feel very
Daniele: privileged of being your your employee of the
Daniele: month, this month. Thanks so much for the
Daniele: invitation and I'm excited for a great
Daniele: conversation.
Guy: Yeah, me too. I'm always excited to talk to you
Guy: about service design or any other philosophical
Guy: matters that may come up during the course of
Guy: our conversation. So thanks for being here. Now,
Guy: every episode we look at some of the principles
Guy: from your book Service Design Principles 1 to
Guy: 100. And this time we're talking about the
Guy: workplace. So the practice of service design is
Guy: often conflated with the idea of user experience,
Guy: which is quite focused on how to make the user
Guy: or the customer experience as good as possible.
Guy: But service design is a little more holistic
Guy: than that, and it also includes employee
Guy: experience and even supplier experience in the
Guy: scope of designing services. So why should we be
Guy: concerned about the employee experience, Daniele?
Daniele: So that's this is a very this is a thing that is
Daniele: very dear to me.
Daniele: I feel what makes the difference between service
Daniele: design and other fields is really this - in a
Daniele: technical way, we often say front stage and back
Daniele: stage. So, yes, we look at what needs to happen.
Daniele: what what we want to create for people like the
Daniele: experience that we want users to go through and
Daniele: have with our organisation. But in service
Daniele: design, what I love is that we always ask the
Daniele: question, okay, to make this happen, what's all
Daniele: the shitty work that we have to do? What are all
Daniele: the processes? Who are the partners that we need?
Daniele: Who are the decision makers that we need to
Daniele: convince? it's a kind of like a much more
Daniele: realistic way of thinking about customer
Daniele: experience. And and therefore it shows that,
Daniele: there is not one without the other. You don't
Daniele: have a great experience if you don't have
Daniele: employees making it happen. And if you have no
Daniele: users, you don't have the money to pay for
Daniele: employees it's kind of like there's this yin
Daniele: yang thing where where you need both and you
Daniele: need to take care of both. Or it's this chicken
Daniele: and egg thing where where you can't you don't
Daniele: really know what came first.
Daniele: Was it the client who said, we need something
Daniele: and then you created a or was it the the service
Daniele: provider who said, "oh, we can do this. ". And
Daniele: then they find the client. But but it really
Daniele: shows one thing which is important. And I think
Daniele: the the best example I might have for that is
Daniele: hospitals. And what it shows is, the staff is
Daniele: important. If your nurses, your doctors, are are
Daniele: burned out, too stressed. Hate the admin. Hate
Daniele: all of that. what will happen is when the
Daniele: patient arrives, he will be treated they treat.
Daniele: He will have a moment of he will arrive there at
Daniele: the hospital and feel treated so badly that then
Daniele: it really then has, a psychological effect on
Daniele: the health, too, and then it's it's really a
Daniele: disservice to the person, but then also to the
Daniele: organisation because it will take more time,
Daniele: because these people will have complaints, they
Daniele: will ask to see a second doctor, who will be
Daniele: again pissed off and, and then we will need you
Daniele: will need to see a third doctor and maybe it has
Daniele: then to go up to the lawyers. If managed better,
Daniele: if the employee experience is managed better,
Daniele: all of that doesn't happen because clients are
Daniele: happier. And and so I think this is just
Daniele: understanding that if we take good care of our
Daniele: employees, there is a reciprocity that happens.
Daniele: it's like when you treat well, your kids, and
Daniele: when you are polite with your kids, when you ask
Daniele: them something, you say, please, there is more
Daniele: chance that they are polite back with you,
Daniele: because they mimic they mimic behavior and they
Daniele: think employees not saying that they are
Daniele: children, but saying that they are humans. We
Daniele: humans, we mimic each other's we do what others
Daniele: do to us. If we do good stuff to each other,
Daniele: there is a bigger chance that employees do good
Daniele: stuff to the clients. if we are stressed, put
Daniele: our our staff under pressure. What might happen
Daniele: is just that they pass also clients under
Daniele: pressure. And so this is really the magic I find
Daniele: in the in the in the in the in service design,
Daniele: which is this this kind of double view, and
Daniele: understanding that
Daniele: you treat if you want to treat your customers
Daniele: well, you have to treat your employees well.
Guy: If you treat your employees like crap, then
Guy: you're saying that it's acceptable to treat
Guy: people like crap. And then, you have to expect
Guy: that that maybe your customers will be treated
Guy: like crap as well. So, it all goes back to like
Guy: the culture and, the standards that are set and
Guy: the expectations that are set within the culture
Guy: of the of the workplace as well. Treating your
Guy: employees well doesn't just stop at, being nice
Guy: to them. Right. There's, there's other things
Guy: around just being a pleasant person or a
Guy: pleasant manager or boss to employees. There are
Guy: other more tangible things as well
Daniele: Yeah, absolutely. And principal, uh, 37, says
Daniele: "To improve your service, start by paying your
Daniele: employees well. ". we often say, people don't
Daniele: stay in a job because of the money, you know,
Daniele: but I think many studies show, that money is
Daniele: correlated to a certain level of happiness up to
Daniele: a certain point. And then once you get to the
Daniele: kind of basic needs met, money doesn't make such
Daniele: a big difference anymore. And I think the with
Daniele: salaries basically the same, up to a certain
Daniele: point, salary makes a big difference in the
Daniele: lives of people and in the way that they, are
Daniele: involved in the service or are involved within
Daniele: the organization, And then beyond that, if you
Daniele: add one K or two K more, it doesn't make that
Daniele: big of a difference. But in the service industry,
Daniele: we are often below that tipping points. we are
Daniele: often below the point where, uh, people say, if
Daniele: you would add one K more in my, uh, in my salary,
Daniele: the difference wouldn't be as big. You know, I
Daniele: think a lot of the frontline stuff, is, is
Daniele: definitely paid in a very shitty way and they
Daniele: are very there are a lot of examples, of
Daniele: companies that have taken that seriously and
Daniele: have understood that
Daniele: if they pay well, their employees who are on the
Daniele: front lines because these are the people who
Daniele: create the experiences, then the customer
Daniele: satisfaction goes up, then revenue goes up. And,
Daniele: and so there are these examples and and they
Daniele: exist. You can move them. And so therefore the
Daniele: the kind of view where we where we say, these
Daniele: are the people that the frontline workers are
Daniele: people that are replaceable and therefore we can
Daniele: pay them low wages, is a bad calculation in the
Daniele: end of the day. we have very good examples of
Daniele: that. in certain industries and countries, and
Daniele: as I have a habit of, uh, always naming when
Daniele: it's great and never naming and when it's bad.
Daniele: So I will continue with that because I think
Daniele: it's a good practice, but, uh, I've seen places
Daniele: where really, uh, people then tell you, Oh, I
Daniele: will not help you more because I'm not paid to
Daniele: do this shit, that's kind of like the reaction
Daniele: that I got once from a service worker when they
Daniele: had a few questions, and I was like, Hey, no, I
Daniele: don't understand that. And the guy just said,
Daniele: You know, I'm not paid enough to do that. I was
Daniele: like, okay, at least this is very honest. it's a
Daniele: very honest feedback. But like what view of the
Daniele: service does that give to me? like, okay, now
Daniele: I'm seeing that this doesn't matter so much,
Daniele: but instead, imagine if someone said to you, Oh,
Daniele: go on. I'm paid for that.
Guy: Yeah.
Daniele: That's what we'd love to hear. someone who tells
Daniele: you when you say yourself as a customer or I'm
Daniele: so sorry to ask another question, that maybe
Daniele: this is a very Swiss thing to say, but we as a
Daniele: Swiss guy, I would say if I'm asking if you a
Daniele: few too many questions, I will say, Oh, I'm so
Daniele: sorry to ask you so many questions or to make
Daniele: you work more. And then the person should say,
Daniele: Oh, this is my job. I am paid to do that. Go on.
Daniele: Imagine this is a very different experience.
Guy: I think like I've worked in service industry and
Guy: my wife has worked in service industry and we've
Guy: talk about this before as well when we've
Guy: encountered, bad service or bad conditions in
Guy: workplaces. And I think that a lot of people
Guy: that choose to be in the service industry put up
Guy: with a lot more crap from their employers
Guy: because they get a they get a reward, an
Guy: intrinsic reward from providing a service, from
Guy: being a service provider. And saying, you know,
Guy: I've helped someone today. And so they sort of
Guy: undervalue themselves when it comes to the
Guy: financial aspect. And they say, oh, well, you
Guy: know, I don't get paid that well, but I get to,
Guy: help people or I get to, make someone's day
Guy: better. And I think that may be some employers
Guy: may take advantage of that and say, yeah, but
Guy: you're doing what you love. You're doing what
Guy: you enjoy. Why are you asking about the money
Guy: side of it? Is it just about money? And, you
Guy: know, the way that conversation goes. So, that,
Guy: that as you say, that that baseline almost
Guy: hygiene level of financial security to say, okay,
Guy: I don't feel that I'm underpaid. I feel that I'm
Guy: paid fairly for the work that I do
Guy: is essential. And once you get that, then those
Guy: employees will give back, even more value than
Guy: what you're giving them.
Daniele: Absolutely. And especially if you then go beyond
Daniele: because I think salaries, obviously, as we said,
Daniele: is maybe just one of the first of the aspects.
Daniele: It's a very important aspect. Let's not let's
Daniele: not lie to ourselves. It's kind of the baseline
Daniele: stuff. This is essential.
Daniele: I've seen stuff where trainees said laughing to
Daniele: each other you know the chair I'm sitting on
Daniele: costs more than my monthly salary. And then you
Daniele: hear that kind of talk, this is bad stuff. this
Daniele: this is like if you feel someone valued as much
Daniele: as the place they put their butt on, and that it
Daniele: this is not great stuff. But once you you are
Daniele: beyond that where when you have done the the you
Daniele: have a fair salaries then there are other things
Daniele: that you can make that creates really a great
Daniele: workplace. And I think one of of the the good
Daniele: examples is
Daniele: this notion of "work can wait", putting
Daniele: boundaries to the work as an employer. T is also
Daniele: kind of a great example, I think, of of setting
Daniele: a workplace that is calm where people say, oh, I
Daniele: am excited to get back to work, you know,
Daniele: But for that as an employer, we need to set up
Daniele: the boundaries so that people at ease can say,
Daniele: I'm excited to get back to work because they
Daniele: have stopped to come to come at work at one time.
Guy: Yeah. So, you know, we during COVID especially,
Guy: we had a lot about, work life balance. And then
Guy: then the key word was work life integration. And,
Guy: I've been working remotely for over ten years.
Guy: And so there's always been aspects of that in my
Guy: career. But it's right that it's very important
Guy: that there's an example from, the people that
Guy: are in charge from the decision makers, fr your
Guy: bosses and managers to say, okay, well, human
Guy: first and then work next in a way.
Daniele: Yeah, absolutely. And and remembering people.
Daniele: That's at the end of the day, it's just a job,
Daniele: And a job is basically a transaction where we
Daniele: say, I'm, I'm giving you that many hours of my
Daniele: time or I'm okay to do these activities in
Daniele: exchange for money and a few other benefits. But
Daniele: it has boundaries, and being very clear on that,
Daniele: I think is very healthy. Sometimes we we forget
Daniele: that. And I think even sometimes, people as
Daniele: employees, we get very motivated about our jobs.
Daniele: And it's it's sometimes good to say, hey, uh,
Daniele: it's okay to now stop tomorrow. We can work
Daniele: again. it's like with my kid when I have to say
Daniele: him, I now we going to stop to play Lego, but
Daniele: tomorrow we can play Lego again. it creates
Daniele: value to play in Lego. if we wouldn't stop to
Daniele: play Lego, then it wouldn't be fun again. And
Daniele: and I think work is the same, even if we love it,
Daniele: we have to put a few boundaries to it. And
Daniele: sometimes it's not the one who's playing who has
Daniele: the distance to put the boundaries. Sometimes it
Daniele: is, but especially in the workplace, kind of the
Daniele: authority, the pressure can feel very strong and
Daniele: then having someone setting the example and say
Daniele: it's okay that now we use we stop working is a
Daniele: very good example.
Guy: I see on LinkedIn occasionally these hustle
Guy: culture posts where people are saying, I worked
Guy: 20 hours a day and I only had a small bowl of
Guy: cereal for breakfast. That's all I ate all day.
Guy: But you have to do this in order to succeed. And
Guy: I think that's actually pretty toxic. it feels
Guy: like it's sending the wrong message to people
Guy: that are either an employee or they're starting
Guy: up a business or something that,
Guy: you don't have to hustle so hard to to be a
Guy: success. And in fact, you're moving so fast and
Guy: not taking time for things that are outside the
Guy: work realm actually can reduce your worldview
Guy: and make it narrower. And and you burn out a lot
Guy: quicker. I mean, that's that's part of this,
Guy: right? It's it's it's as you say, it's setting
Guy: boundaries for for for yourself and for your
Guy: people.
Daniele: Absolutely. And I think it goes with this idea
Daniele: that often in service design, we're not in this
Daniele: perspective of trying, just to sell.
Daniele: often, hustle culture from what I see comes
Daniele: often from people who are more on the selling
Daniele: side than on the service side, because on the
Daniele: selling side, you can say, Oh, I've sold now
Daniele: it's done. it's kind of product mindset. I, I've
Daniele: sold 200 bits of that and now it's done. And so
Daniele: if I push more, I can sell more, But in the
Daniele: service mindset, you want to serve people in a
Daniele: sustainable way for years. And so it doesn't
Daniele: bring anything, t hustle because what's the
Daniele: hustle, in the marriage? how can you hustle a
Daniele: marriage? it's it's a relationship. It's
Daniele: something that that you could do for fucking a
Daniele: long time, so you can't really hustle a marriage,
Daniele: you invest time. Y also have to set boundaries.
Daniele: you have to do a lot of that work. And I think
Daniele: it's the same with services where what we're
Daniele: trying to do is not selling, it's not having one
Daniele: night stands with clients. What we're trying to
Daniele: have is marriages. And obviously there are some
Daniele: marriages. that's where that have a type where
Daniele: it's for a few weeks, a few months, a few years
Daniele: and there are lifetime marriages even with
Daniele: clients, and and that's okay. But the difference
Daniele: is really that is that we if we see it long term,
Daniele: then the speed is not so much important anymore.
Daniele: But the break starts to be much more important
Daniele: because we going to have to do that for a long,
Daniele: long, long, long time. And therefore we have to
Daniele: manage our energy level in the right way. And
Daniele: and maybe that's a bit of a shift from
Daniele: especially if you coming a bit from a marketing
Daniele: background or something like that where it's the
Daniele: numbers of stuff that you get out that matters.
Daniele: And here is like how many people you keep in
Daniele: that matters, which is a very different mindset.
Guy: I think work has been sort of based on this
Guy: industrial workplace mentality for so long where
Guy: you can measure productivity with, you know, the
Guy: amount of widgets, the amount of things that get
Guy: produced. But when we're talking about knowledge
Guy: work, and I think many, many people now aren't
Guy: producing widgets directly, they're part of a
Guy: bigger ecosystem that is, you know, a part of
Guy: the administration or they're doing back end
Guy: support or there's so many other things, but
Guy: they're they're based in knowledge. So
Guy: productivity can't be measured with number of
Guy: widgets produced or number of widgets sold. So
Guy: that whole idea of the industrial manufacturing
Guy: idea of productivity, it persists in some
Guy: workplaces today, even though that's not how we
Guy: are productive in today's society, in our in
Guy: today's workplaces. So changing that and
Guy: shifting that and saying, okay, well, it's not
Guy: just about, you know, producing produce and
Guy: producing. There's this balance. And it makes me
Guy: think of of David Marquet's book "Leadership is
Guy: Language", where he talks about the difference
Guy: between red work and blue work and red work is.
Guy: when you're executing stuff and you're doing
Guy: things, but then you need to balance that with
Guy: blue work, which is the the thinking and the
Guy: consideration and and that sort of stuff.
Guy: Because if you just keep on doing, then there's
Guy: no space for learning or reflection or, you know,
Guy: thinking about what's to come. So it's always
Guy: about this balance. So by forcing yourself to,
Guy: to stop responding to emails after 5:00 or
Guy: whatever, it's still means that, okay, it
Guy: doesn't mean that you have to stop thinking
Guy: about stuff. You can still think about it, but
Guy: it's in a different sort of way that you do it.
Guy: It's a more relaxed and different perspective
Guy: way that things can happen. And it may be that
Guy: you have those shower moments - you're in the
Guy: shower at 10:00 at night and go, Oh, I've just
Guy: thought of something that would solve my problem
Guy: for tomorrow. So if you're always hustling and
Guy: you're always working and it doesn't stop,
Guy: there's no room for that sort of reflection.
Daniele: Abso. And, you know, often I try I like to
Daniele: explain it in that way. I say, would you like to
Daniele: have drunk people at work? And then people say,
Daniele: no, I wouldn't like to have a drunk employee at
Daniele: work then. And then I cite the research that is.
Daniele: And that is done on sleep where it has been
Daniele: shown. From what I remember that, you know,
Daniele: someone who is not sleeping right, has kind of
Daniele: like the same issues as someone who's drunk when
Daniele: they drive, Which tells me that if you want
Daniele: people to be overworked, if you want to use them
Daniele: in that way. Basically what you're going to get
Daniele: at the end is drunk people and drunk people.
Daniele: They don't answer great emails. You know, they
Daniele: create more problems with their peers. So I
Daniele: would prefer to say let's make people stop at a
Daniele: at a fair moment so that they can get a fair
Daniele: amount of rest and a fair amount of family time
Daniele: and personal time so that the next day I get not
Daniele: the drunk guy, but they get the well rested guy
Daniele: who when he sees his email list and the problems
Daniele: that arrive from stakeholders, decision makers
Daniele: and people like that, that he isn't like in
Daniele: panic mode, but rather like, okay, I can manage
Daniele: and manages in a good way.
Guy: If I'm going in for surgery with a doctor that's
Guy: been on for 9 hours already, I'd rather wait for
Guy: the next day. Right. Don't put me in in with
Guy: someone that's at the end of their shift and is
Guy: tired and they've been working for 9 hours. Okay?
Guy: And now they've got to make medical decisions
Guy: that could impact my life. I would rather then
Guy: see the doctor first thing at the start of the
Guy: shift. it just feels weird that in the hospitals
Guy: and medical industry and some other industries
Guy: that they have these such long shifts
Guy: when it's been shown that it's not it's not
Guy: conducive to good decision making to to work
Guy: when you're tired.
Daniele: And if in the end of the day, you believe that
Daniele: customer satisfaction, quality of service are
Daniele: important and there are a number of studies that
Daniele: tend to show that all of these things, have an
Daniele: impact on revenue. If you believe that,
Daniele: then the next logical thing to do is to consider
Daniele: rest and positive boundaries as something
Daniele: important. it can be about emails, it can be
Daniele: about work hours, it can be telling people very
Daniele: clearly, we don't expect you to have your
Daniele: messaging work app on your phone, you know, all
Daniele: of these things. Then if people for one reason
Daniele: or the other, you know, want it,
Daniele: then that's another level. But at least the
Daniele: expectation of "sustainable", "long-term"
Daniele: "rested", should be clearly set
Daniele: and obviously if I would look back at my own
Daniele: life, I would say there are still moments and
Daniele: phases in life. You know, in my twenties, I
Daniele: might have been a little bit less mindful and
Daniele: rested then than now. And maybe that was not
Daniele: such a bad thing either in a way that that, you
Daniele: have the energy you want to to learn, etc. and
Daniele: that's a good thing. But the workplace should be
Daniele: still the place where we remind the younger
Daniele: generation who has that energy to say, hey,
Daniele: we're here for the long term, you don't have to
Daniele: burn out tomorrow. If you want to go the extra
Daniele: mile, you're welcome to do it, but we don't
Daniele: expect it. And you will not get a better pay
Daniele: more respect from us. If you do it. You might
Daniele: get more knowledge out of it, but you will not
Daniele: get more respect.
Guy: A lesson Hard learned for some people, I think.
Daniele: Because I've seen many friends, burnout way too
Daniele: early, you know, where
Guy: Yeah.
Daniele: You know, sometimes we we put the responsibility
Daniele: on on the organizations and then maybe that's
Daniele: not it's not the responsibility of the
Daniele: organization to not let people burn themselves.
Daniele: It's a philosophical question, but I would say
Daniele: it's a smart decision for an organization to do
Daniele: it, not from an ethical question, but from a
Daniele: business point of view. It's much better to not
Daniele: let people burn themselves just because of the
Daniele: turnover, and it's a mess to handle and so from
Daniele: a business perspective, it's way more
Daniele: interesting to to think long term think rested
Daniele: and sometimes put a little bit of a break on
Daniele: people who want to go the extra mile and say hey,
Daniele: we don't maybe we don't expect it and sometimes
Daniele: even say we don't want it. I think that's that's
Daniele: something that sometimes we we we have to do.
Guy: So this ties into principle 42.
Guy: Employees should check their emails less often.
Daniele: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so this is a very
Daniele: kind of down to earth way to to show how can you
Daniele: put these boundaries. And this is something that
Daniele: I've learned studying this kind of behavior in
Daniele: big organizations, when you ask an employee what
Daniele: is the expectation that your boss has about how
Daniele: many times you should check your email and then
Daniele: you ask the same question to the boss. The
Daniele: answers are so funny. So
Guy: Hmm.
Daniele: in the case I have studied and I've done
Daniele: research on employees said, oh, two, three, four
Daniele: times a day. And when I asked the boss, they
Daniele: said once a day maximum, because I want them to
Daniele: do the work. And if I have something urgent, I'm
Daniele: going to call them. And you know that the
Daniele: expectation is because it's not said. Because
Daniele: nowhere it's written. Nowhere. it's said. People
Daniele: create an expectation. It's oh, yes, my boss
Daniele: wants that. But the boss doesn't want it. And
Daniele: for good reasons, you know, and obviously then
Daniele: because employees are good employees, you know,
Daniele: they want to overperform. And how do you
Daniele: overperform on emails? You check them eight
Daniele: times a day.
Guy: Yeah.
Daniele: And then in all the research, where we know that
Daniele: each time you switch context, you know, there is
Daniele: a cost and there is time lost.
Daniele: And and therefore we know that if you do that
Daniele: eight times a day, you can do a little bit of
Daniele: math and you quickly see that there are days of
Daniele: work that get lost in the year for nothing.
Guy: Yeah. I mean, one of the things I got used to
Guy: when I started in a new position or got a new
Guy: computer, basically, is I'd go into the
Guy: notification settings and turn them all off for
Guy: email. I don't want that pop up. I don't want
Guy: anything to to come up and and take my attention
Guy: from me to say, Oh, you've got an email because
Guy: that email might be spam, it could be something
Guy: that's completely unimportant. But just that
Guy: notification, just a blip, that's enough to pull
Guy: you out of whatever context you in or whatever
Guy: flow that you are in and derail you in some way.
Guy: So, you know, it can take it may not take 20
Guy: minutes to get back, but it may take 5 minutes
Guy: to get back. And every time that comes up, if
Guy: you've got it notifying you on every new mail,
Guy: that's a lot of little blips throughout the day.
Guy: So, yeah, I always turn it off. And then I
Guy: reduced the amount of times that the email
Guy: client would check for new mail to be, you know,
Guy: as, as wide as I can make. And I think some
Guy: clients only allow every 30 minutes or something
Guy: like this and then I would close the email
Guy: client when I wasn't working with it so that I
Guy: wouldn't just be switching between applications
Guy: and then come across an email and see an unread
Guy: email. And then I kind of I was going to do
Guy: something that now I'm going to deal with this
Guy: email because it will, it will take your
Guy: attention. And attention is one of the most
Guy: valuable things that we have now. You know, even
Guy: more than time. It's how we use that time. It's
Guy: it's what gets our attention. So reducing the
Guy: the noise and the the notifications and all of
Guy: those things that can pull you out of your
Guy: context is super important. So yeah, if it's
Guy: once a day, y say, okay, I'm going to check my
Guy: email at 10:00 in the morning and then that's it.
Guy: Obviously, I think there's some jobs which may
Guy: require you to check it more often if you're
Guy: doing support based on email, But for most
Guy: people they can probably get away with just
Guy: doing it once a day or at least talking to their
Guy: boss or their manager to find out what their
Guy: expectations are.
Daniele: Yeah. it's setting, the expectation about the
Daniele: different channels that we have at work. what's
Daniele: the frequency that we expect for each channel.
Daniele: And then also reflect on what channels do we use
Daniele: for what.
Daniele: Just to share a note. I think we talked about it
Daniele: in the last episode, but there is a great book,
Daniele: so Cal Newport for people who are interested in
Daniele: this kind of stuff, deep work and all of that.
Daniele: He's really he has really good content about all
Daniele: of that. the thing that you said about
Daniele: notifications, there are studies about that, if
Daniele: I remember well, I think IBM did a study and it
Daniele: was kind of 8 minutes lost. Each time you hear a
Daniele: notification just from to get back at the same
Daniele: stage of focus. And if you need some convincing
Daniele: with your boss, I did. Uh, this is something
Daniele: that I did back in the days I, I created a
Daniele: little Excel spreadsheets, where I counted the
Daniele: number of times the person wanted to check their
Daniele: emails, and added to 8 minutes thing from IBM.
Daniele: And then you multiply that over the number of
Daniele: days you work in a year, you know, or in the
Daniele: months.
Guy: Hmm.
Daniele: And then you do the math, you know, And once you
Daniele: do that, you know, the number is crazy, you know,
Daniele: And then you can have this conversation of, is
Daniele: this cost okay for us? And as you said, there
Daniele: are always caveats with this kind of stuff is if
Daniele: you're a customer service guy, your job is email.
Daniele: You know that that's that's your job. if you're
Daniele: a manager, depending on what type of manager you
Daniele: are, your job is email because is answering,
Daniele: stuff from your employees to help them get to do
Daniele: their work, And basically you are an answering
Daniele: machine. For the problems of of your peers, you
Daniele: know, then it's another job. But for many
Daniele: knowledge workers,
Daniele: email is your source of information, but it's
Daniele: not your work. Your work is something else. And
Daniele: and then definitely such a principle can work.
Daniele: And and this is just one example of of a very
Daniele: simple, practical thing we can do to make the
Daniele: workplace just a bit nicer.
Daniele: But there are even some simpler and more stupid
Daniele: things, like putting some plants in at work.
Daniele: There are again, research that has been done
Daniele: that shows that, if you put some plants in, in
Daniele: in an office, it reduces fatigue. You know, one
Daniele: study says that it seems to be able to just
Daniele: reduce fatigue by 30%,
Guy: No.
Daniele: Others have measured that just having a few
Daniele: plants in the office, increases productivity by
Daniele: 15%. And what this shows again, is this notion
Daniele: that if we want to have services that work well,
Daniele: we need to have employees that work well and for
Daniele: employees to work well, we need to think kind of
Daniele: in a sustainable way, which means sleep,
Daniele: boundaries and nature.
Guy: I think I think everyone's been in that in that
Guy: office where there's a fluorescent light that
Guy: just hasn't been fixed and it's flickering and
Guy: you just can't get any work done with that light
Guy: still as it is. So this is taking it to another
Guy: degrees. And if you're in an office like that,
Guy: get that light fixed, because that's a that's a
Guy: very important environmental consideration there
Guy: in terms of people's wellbeing, because it will
Guy: drive people insane. But aside from plants, the
Guy: picture that comes to my mind when I was
Guy: thinking about that fluorescent light is this
Guy: cubicle farm,
Guy: this open office where everyone can see everyone
Guy: and everyone can interact with everyone and and
Guy: I've heard some stories that this sort of plan,
Guy: this layout is not optimal for actually getting
Guy: things done. What do you know about that?
Daniele: Yeah, I have personal experiences, obviously,
Daniele: with this kind of stuff that, where I, I kind of
Daniele: both hated it and loved it. And I think it can
Daniele: work well, obviously. But, some research again
Daniele: shows that it's not always that great. So for
Daniele: example, there is a research that shows that,
Daniele: open spaces create that 32% drop in workers
Daniele: well-being, a 15% reduction of productivity, an
Daniele: 86 minutes per day employees, lost due to
Daniele: distractions, And so these are just examples
Daniele: like and again, you know, some places you can
Daniele: decide to not set up a big open space. Some
Daniele: places you just have the open space and you
Daniele: can't to do all the things. But it doesn't mean
Daniele: that that you can't make it in a different way.
Daniele: So often, you know, uh, when working in open
Daniele: spaces, people tell me a but I'm in an open
Daniele: space, I can't do anything about it because we
Daniele: don't have the space or, or I'm not the one
Daniele: who's deciding. And then you can say, Yeah, but
Daniele: you still can create a culture where distraction,
Daniele: you know, is welcome that moments and not
Daniele: welcome that other moments.
Guy: Hmm.
Daniele: And for that, you know, you can have little,
Daniele: little cultural signals that can help. You know
Daniele: for example, one very simple signals is if I
Daniele: have my headphones on, I'm in a deep work mode.
Daniele: In the words of Cal Newport, meaning I'm working
Daniele: in an Excel spreadsheet, I don't need to be
Daniele: disturbed or this will break my spreadsheets,
Daniele: you know, And then might lose a million just
Daniele: because of you asking me a question. So then
Daniele: headphones on. Good thing to do. You know, it's
Daniele: a signal. Don't disturb me. But there are other
Daniele: moments where we say, Hey, i good to be in the
Daniele: in the in the space where people can just come
Daniele: in and say, hey, I might have a little question.
Daniele: Is now the right time, you know? And then having
Daniele: another signal that says I'm open to full
Daniele: conversations. I'm not in this in this deep work
Daniele: mode is something that can be used. In places
Daniele: where you don't have an open space, what happens
Daniele: is the door is open or the door is closed. You
Daniele: know, that's the signal. But you don't have that.
Daniele: So you have to find other ways to have that
Daniele: signal. And again, it's not that open spaces are
Daniele: pure hell or pure paradise, but often when by
Daniele: default, they generate a lot of of issues. But
Daniele: if you designed them in a smart way and you
Daniele: don't you don't need much, Headphones or maybe
Daniele: some noise canceling headphones. Maybe just some
Daniele: five minute meeting saying, Hey, guys, new rule.
Daniele: I someone has a little sticky note with a bad
Daniele: face on it, don't disturb them. We're going to
Daniele: try that for one week. It doesn't cost anything,
Daniele: You didn't have to spend money on putting walls.
Daniele: But still you get the benefits of having a
Daniele: system to avoid the distractions.
Guy: a lot of this has become
Guy: difficult to work through for office managers
Guy: and people that are designing these offices,
Guy: especially when after COVID and a lot of more
Guy: people moved to remote or hybrid working. And so,
Guy: you would have people that had half empty
Guy: offices. And then how do we utilise the space?
Guy: Better start hot desking and and hoteling and
Guy: things like this where you didn't have an
Guy: assigned desk, you just take the open desk, but
Guy: then you don't, then you feel less of a of a
Guy: human if you don't have an assigned place or if
Guy: you don't, you can't personalize your space at
Guy: work. So there's a lot of moving parts with this.
Guy: And I don't envy the people that are designing
Guy: offices now for, the workplace of tomorrow.
Daniele: Yeah, absolutely.
Daniele: I'm also more on the remote side of work these
Daniele: days, and it comes with a lot of tiny benefits
Daniele: on that part for the focus but I think one type
Daniele: of exercise that I would highly recommend for
Daniele: people who are,
Daniele: having to make those decisions, even if you're
Daniele: just a team leader or something like that is,
Daniele: tak your people in and ask those questions. how
Daniele: do we ensure that, you can get the focus that
Daniele: you need? Yeah. What do you need to do that?
Daniele: What can we change? And there is always like
Daniele: three perspectives. There is an environment
Daniele: perspective where it's what can we change in an
Daniele: environment? There is a technological
Daniele: perspective. what technology can we use to
Daniele: change the things? And then there is a behavior
Daniele: perspective where we can say, what can we change
Daniele: in our way of behaving? So that we signal to
Daniele: each others elements that then make the
Daniele: workplace better? and this again, is a one hour
Daniele: meeting once every year. That you can do and
Daniele: then people can work and at at a better
Daniele: efficiency. And also, removing a few
Daniele: disturbances that everybody hates, but nobody
Daniele: acknowledges because they don't feel that it's
Daniele: so important. But, something that is not so
Daniele: important that happens 20 times a day
Daniele: is important, even if it's just taking 1 minutes.
Daniele: But it's taking one minute of 20 people 20 times
Daniele: a day. That's a lot of minutes for something not
Daniele: very important. And I'm not advocating, for a
Daniele: monk based.
Daniele: Workplace where there is absolute no distraction
Daniele: and no communication between each other, but
Daniele: instead having a bit more intentionality. When
Daniele: is the right time to do what? Again, I often
Daniele: take these examples
Daniele: because that's what I'm living a lot these days
Daniele: with my kids. You know, say now is the playtime,
Daniele: And now as a calm time, now is the time of of
Daniele: learning. Now is the time of eating. And when we
Daniele: eat, we don't play. When we play, we don't eat
Daniele: at the same time. It's, setting to the rhythms.
Daniele: But obviously in one day there is play, there is
Daniele: each, there is education, there is calm. There
Daniele: is all of it. But trying to have all of it at
Daniele: the same time, that's at least to me, feels like
Daniele: a bit of a recipe for chaos or in in Switzerland
Daniele: we will call that bircher muesli. Which is, a
Daniele: recipe where we put all of the rests in there in
Daniele: some yoghurt and we mix it and sometimes it's
Daniele: delicious, but sometimes it's just crap.
Guy: Yeah, well, when you find these, these places
Guy: where things aren't going optimally, when you
Guy: realize, oh, I've made a mistake here, then it
Guy: can be helpful, to share the mistake and share
Guy: the learnings from that and say, okay, well this
Guy: is how I came to this decision. And at the time
Guy: it might have been the right decision, but the
Guy: outcome wasn't great.
Guy: How do we avoid making that mistake again? I
Guy: guess give it some value and share it, which,
Guy: which I'm trying to segue into principle number
Guy: 41 of mistakes are worthy only if
Guy: you share them.
Daniele: So it depends on depending on the culture again.
Daniele: I think if every culture is a bit different,
Daniele: but many in many cultures or work cultures, you
Daniele: we speak mostly about windows and not much about
Daniele: mistakes and we don't celebrate like, Oh, I
Daniele: failed at this and this is what I learned. This
Daniele: is not something that you say. You just say, Oh,
Daniele: we have a new client,We finish this great,
Daniele: great, great. And if it's the case that in their
Daniele: cultures, there is no space given to speak about
Daniele: mistakes. That's a dangerous thing because there
Daniele: is no time to to to improve in some way. You we
Daniele: can just improve by seeing only the great stuff.
Daniele: But there is also a lot of learning from all of
Daniele: what didn't work well, and especially, not just
Daniele: having obviously kind of like the the classical
Daniele: end of project with you is a great learning
Daniele: thing, where it's good for the team, but how can
Daniele: you go beyond that, in a way that it's not just
Daniele: what the mistakes of one team helps that team,
Daniele: but that the mistakes of one team helps kind of
Daniele: like the whole organization. And again, it's not
Daniele: big things here that are needed, but tiny little
Daniele: things where, you could have like a learning
Daniele: wall or if it's remote, a learning channel where
Daniele: you say, hey, this, this week, this or this is a
Daniele: mistake I made and this is what I learned from
Daniele: it. these are very simple practices. where where
Daniele: people can just have a place to share. This is
Daniele: something that broke that didn't work, where I
Daniele: made a mistake. And this is something that I
Daniele: learned out of it. And and if we do that, not
Daniele: again, just each of us for ourselves, but also
Daniele: as an organization, then we can greatly improve
Daniele: also the workplace. And that can be pretty
Daniele: inspiring.
Guy: You have to feel safe in the environment, that
Guy: you can share the mistake and that you're not
Guy: going to be thrown under the bus or it's not
Guy: going to come back in some negative way and that
Guy: it gets celebrated in a way to say, okay, you
Guy: made a mistake, we discovered it and here's what
Guy: we can learn from it. But without that
Guy: psychological safety, it can be risky and people
Guy: would be less inclined to to share their
Guy: mistakes. So I guess it's it's incumbent on the
Guy: on the people that are creating that workplace
Guy: environment and that culture to also encourage
Guy: that culture of mistakes are okay. It's okay to
Guy: make a mistake, and then others will be willing
Guy: to share them.
Daniele: A. And here again, you know, the role of the of
Daniele: the authority figure, be it a team leader, be it
Daniele: to the CEO or whoever else is.
Daniele: setting the tone. You know, imagine the CEO
Daniele: coming in and saying, okay, guys, this is how I
Daniele: made a mistake that cost us over 1 million. And
Daniele: this is what I learned from it. And this was
Daniele: that this is what I'm changing.
Guy: Right.
Daniele: I am going to feel much more eager to share my
Daniele: mistake that just cost one angry email from one
Daniele: customer. Because, 1 million versus one angry
Daniele: customer feels like it's not that terrible. And
Daniele: I'm not the CEO. And so I think therefore,
Daniele: choosing to be clear that it's also our jobs for
Daniele: people who are in these jobs of of being
Daniele: leaders to to showcase that, yes, we do mistakes.
Daniele: And we speak about them and we expect people to
Daniele: do the same. But you can't expect people to do
Daniele: it if you don't do it yourself.
Daniele: And yeah that's that's always this perspective
Daniele: that these are all very dumb lessons you know
Daniele: people sometimes might think but what this is so,
Daniele: so clear so logical, But why don't we do it? You
Daniele: know, that's often a feedback that they get from
Daniele: students, when, when, when they read these books,
Daniele: they are like, but this is so, so clear. Why do
Daniele: people buy your books? I say, beca in the
Daniele: workplace people don't do this stuff that is
Daniele: clear. You know, they focus on the more complex
Daniele: stuff and forget about the simple stuff
Guy: There's an idea that by admitting a mistake or
Guy: showing vulnerability can actually weaken you.
Guy: But it's kind of the opposite. If you if you're
Guy: confident enough to say, you know what, I
Guy: screwed up something here and here was the
Guy: consequences, and I'm happy to admit it and say
Guy: that I'm you know, I'm not an oracle. I don't
Guy: know everything. That that actually goes a long
Guy: way to helping people trust you and and have
Guy: people look up to you. Would you agree with that?
Daniele: Absolutely.
Daniele: And thinking out loud, the one thing that often,
Daniele: uh, inhibits us of doing it, at least one of the
Daniele: things is that, we have a lot of processes, but
Daniele: we don't have processes for this kind of stuff.
Daniele: for example, I have a, a personal process that I
Daniele: do with my boss, which is, every 1 to 3 months I
Daniele: kind of make a summary of the work I've done
Daniele: during that time. And it always includes one
Daniele: thing that usually is not in any report, but
Daniele: which I love, which is, people that you should
Daniele: congratulate. And I always add two or three
Daniele: names of people where I say, This guy did an
Daniele: awesome job and he's part of our little universe
Daniele: of work, you know, and you should know about it,
Daniele: and you should tell him he did a great work
Daniele: about this. Why am I doing this? Because I want
Daniele: to set the example. that it's okay to celebrate
Daniele: the great work of others, and now making the
Daniele: turn back to our topic. You know, I've made the
Daniele: process. Having that line, you know, in a report.
Daniele: What if, in your own reports that you made to
Daniele: your boss, you would add a line which says, this
Daniele: is how I fucked up this months and this is what
Daniele: I learned from it.
Daniele: This is a very powerful thing. You know, this is
Daniele: a very powerful thing to do. And because I was
Daniele: thinking while we were discussing, you know,
Daniele: that will put a lot of of of importance on
Daniele: leadership and that people are listening to us.
Daniele: And I think, yeah, but I'm not in the leadership,
Daniele: so fuck you guys.
Guy: Yeah.
Daniele: What can I do? And you know, you can, you can be
Daniele: the example to, you know,
Daniele: this kind of stuff. Your boss will love to
Daniele: receive a report from you every two or three
Daniele: months about the ways you fucked up and you
Daniele: learn something. obviously I had a few other
Daniele: successes in that, to to also make him happy.
Daniele: That would be great, But this is stuff that you
Daniele: can do. It doesn't cost you anything. It just
Daniele: costs you to have a. Word document for the the
Daniele: Office lovers or a Google doc or whatever, a
Daniele: document as a favourite in your browser. And
Daniele: whenever you make a mistake, write it down there,
Daniele: and what you learned because it's it has a lot
Daniele: of value. It has the self-reflection value of
Daniele: noticing I've made a mistake and then writing
Daniele: down what I've learned out of it. And the fact
Daniele: of writing it is already kind of like a
Daniele: memorizing exercise. And then the fact that
Daniele: you're sharing it, creates a lot of visibility.
Daniele: And someone someone else learns out of it. And
Daniele: then finally, if it's your boss who sees that,
Daniele: it might create in the end, the willingness to
Daniele: say, hey, oh, what Guy is sharing with me? This
Daniele: is something that we all should do. So now a new
Daniele: process guys. We all are going to share once a
Daniele: month, all our fuck-up moments, and that's going
Daniele: to be awesome. But just because Guy thought my
Daniele: boss is not asking it, but I think it's valuable,
Daniele: so I'm just going to share it.
Guy: Yeah, I would. I would also put on this that not
Guy: all bosses will be as generous and and open and
Guy: altruistic maybe as as our hypothetical boss
Guy: here. Some could use this against you. If
Guy: they're wanting to get rid of you, if you have a
Guy: bad relationship, you have to pick your moments,
Guy: I guess you have to understand the the dynamic
Guy: between you and your your managers. And maybe
Guy: don't give more fuel for people to use if the
Guy: relationship isn't that good. But I think that
Guy: the general principle of being willing to admit
Guy: your mistakes even if it's not in a written
Guy: report, but at least in a in a discussion or
Guy: retrospective or something like this, or when
Guy: you're talking about a new project and said, you
Guy: know what, we went down this path in something
Guy: that I was involved with before and we made the
Guy: mistake of doing this or I made the mistake of
Guy: making this decision. So maybe as we go forward
Guy: into this new project to keep that in mind.
Guy: Yeah, I think context plays a part here and, and,
Guy: and you can get some toxic people at all levels
Guy: of the organization,
Daniele: Yeah.
Guy: so.
Daniele: And that's maybe that's maybe a big advice which
Daniele: is, in toxic environments
Daniele: don't play with the good place rules because it
Daniele: will fire back
Daniele: hard lesson learnt. In toxic environments. You
Daniele: have to be careful to not be the altruistic guy,
Daniele: etc., etc., because it can fire back very deeply.
Daniele: And obviously this this means that you you
Daniele: always have to be very mindful of that, saying
Daniele: if you're in a toxic environment, usually it
Daniele: will not get un-toxic. So that's one thing that
Daniele: I have learned over the years is to make a place
Daniele: un-toxic. I have learned that it's not really
Daniele: possible. So if you have to stay in it because
Daniele: of monetary reasons, you know, just do what you
Daniele: can to survive and but try to leave as soon as
Daniele: possible. That's kind of like my peak advice for
Daniele: those places. There are plenty of places where
Daniele: people, are nice to each other. They exist.
Daniele: There is hope. it's like with people I know I
Daniele: always relate that to women beaten by their
Daniele: husbands, who believe that this is normal. This
Daniele: is not normal. toxic environments are not a
Daniele: normal thing. Jus know that it's not normal. And
Daniele: if you have to go through it because you have no
Daniele: other solution, because there is kind of like a
Daniele: fear or something, a good reason to stay, stay
Daniele: as little as you needs, because there is other
Daniele: places that exist where you can find less toxic
Daniele: places. There are a lot of great places to work.
Daniele: And and and and you can find them.
Guy: Yeah, for sure. Now, if we are in one of those
Guy: good places and we do want to do do something to
Guy: to change the environment or to change our
Guy: processes. Does it happen overnight?
Daniele: Absolutely no.
Daniele: Obviously, it's it all takes a shitload of time.
Daniele: You know, there is one thing to know or two
Daniele: things to know. The first is when you will come
Daniele: with the change the first reaction will always
Daniele: be no. This is a very interesting thing that
Daniele: I've learned over the years. Again, is whenever
Daniele: you come with a big with a new idea, it's normal
Daniele: that in all the organizations that people just
Daniele: react with no first, and it's okay. It's just
Daniele: take your time and and come back.And we propose
Daniele: with a bit of a new light with a few changes,
Daniele: you know, and then people will say, uh, let's
Daniele: talk about it another time. And then the third
Daniele: time they will say maybe. And then the fourth
Daniele: time they will say, okay, let's try, you know?
Daniele: So that's kind of like the first thing to know.
Daniele: It's that it takes a bit of time to just
Daniele: convince people that something could be tested.
Daniele: And then once you put something in place, there
Daniele: is one of the
Daniele: studies and we always have to take those with a
Daniele: bit of a grain of salt. But there is one of
Daniele: those studies which says that to do that you
Daniele: need to repeat a behaviour for 66 days to create
Daniele: a new habit. And this obviously works for
Daniele: personal habits, but also for work habits. You
Daniele: know, that repetition is really key to put in
Daniele: place something. So if we're speaking of, you
Daniele: know, sharing failures and learnings, you know,
Daniele: doing it once will not be enough to say now it's
Daniele: a process. Now it's something that happens
Daniele: automatically and you're going to need a few
Daniele: weeks, a few months so that it's really
Daniele: ingrained in your culture. And knowing that is
Daniele: interesting, not in the sense that it makes us
Daniele: think, Oh shit, it's going to be hard, but
Daniele: rather to have a bit of patience and to think
Daniele: about the ways we can support people while they
Daniele: are slowly creating the habits because they are
Daniele: not. The habit isn't there yet. So what are the
Daniele: reminders that we can put in the, uh, 13 first
Daniele: weeks of a new process? You know, what can we do
Daniele: to help people transition to this new habit? And
Daniele: I think that's a very interesting thing to know.
Daniele: So. People will say, no, that's normal.
Guy: Right.
Daniele: And once they said maybe you're going to need a
Daniele: little bit of time to to get them used to it and
Daniele: therefore, think about how you can on board them,
Daniele: remind them about it and then make it easier for
Daniele: them.
Guy: Mm hmm. So do you think that a lot of these
Guy: change efforts fail, or because they they lack
Guy: that patience, they say, okay, here's the new
Guy: process. Go for it. And then they're kind of
Guy: people are abandoned to it just to make of it
Guy: what they will. And they don't get that support
Guy: through that that change phase, that transition
Guy: phase.
Daniele: Yeah, I would say I would say there is two
Daniele: reasons. The first one is like making change and
Daniele: stopping there. the other one is making change
Daniele: and educating and stopping there. And when I
Daniele: feel it works is when you make the change. You
Daniele: make the education,and you set up the routines.
Daniele: It's not just the process, but the work, which
Daniele: is that it's embedded in the way we work. and
Daniele: then it works. Well, I think a pretty great book
Daniele: about this is Atomic Habits. obviously it's a
Daniele: book which is more for personal productivity,
Daniele: but a lot of the ideas behind it you can reuse
Daniele: also for work, So there are ideas like habit
Daniele: stacking,which is the idea that in order to
Daniele: create a new habit, instead of creating a new
Daniele: habit, stack it or bundle it with something that
Daniele: people do.A simple example. I know Guy you are
Daniele: already fit and very muscular, but maybe I'm not
Daniele: as fit. Clear as you are. And to get there, I
Daniele: might say every time I brush my teeth, I am
Daniele: going to do 20 push ups, you know, And so I
Daniele: don't even have to do that much work because
Daniele: brushing teeth means push ups. And then maybe on
Daniele: my toothbrush, I add a sticky note or something
Daniele: or a where photo of me being extra fit with a
Daniele: little bubble that says Now is your time to do
Daniele: your pushups, then yeah, you know, and, and it
Daniele: automatically happens that I will be fit as guy
Daniele: in the next few years. And so this is just
Daniele: showing that obviously this is a very personal
Daniele: life thing, but. Again in in work. We also have
Daniele: habits and things that happen and like how can
Daniele: we bundle these things? So this is just one
Daniele: example. But the that book
Daniele: Atomic Habit has a few of those elements that
Daniele: you can kind of steal for for that phase.But
Daniele: I'm curious. Guy. What's your take on on
Daniele: how to create workplaces that are
Daniele: more sustainable and where people, you know, are
Daniele: doing great work more easily?
Guy: There's a lot. We talked about leadership a bit
Guy: and the idea of the leader being the one that's
Guy: in authority. And that's one sort of idea that
Guy: I've come to have my mind changed about, because
Guy: I think that a leader doesn't have to have
Guy: authority to lead that, that anyone in a
Guy: workplace or in an organization of any type can
Guy: be a leader and they can lead through their
Guy: behavior and their actions and their attitude
Guy: and their their integrity and and how they
Guy: present themselves without having any authority,
Guy: without having a formal position of authority.
Guy: So if you have that in mind, you don't have to
Guy: be a manager to make a change that can make a
Guy: difference to you. So if you want to make a
Guy: positive impact on your workplace, then then you
Guy: can lead yourself in that direction. You don't
Guy: have to wait for someone else to give you
Guy: permission to do that as long as it's not
Guy: affecting other people. You can you can do as
Guy: many changes to yourself as you want, as long as
Guy: it doesn't affect other people negatively. And
Guy: then as you start to show these changes, other
Guy: people may become interested and say, Oh, how
Guy: are you doing this? Or what's happening here?
Guy: And then the conversation starts. So there's
Guy: this type of leadership that comes from the
Guy: ground up as opposed to having positional
Guy: authority. So that's one one thing I would say
Guy: about creating a better workplace for yourself
Guy: if if those that are in authority are unwilling
Guy: or unable to.
Guy: And then having that that ability to like, as we
Guy: said before, to to share your mistakes and admit
Guy: your mistakes. And I, I mean, even in those
Guy: scenarios where it's possibly not a great idea
Guy: because of the people that are involved, I still
Guy: want to do it. I still want to say, you know
Guy: what, I screwed this up or I made a mistake here,
Guy: because then it comes to my own integrity. And I
Guy: think it's very difficult to sort of say, okay,
Guy: well, if something's been gone very well and
Guy: then you've exposed some mistakes that happened
Guy: in the process. But the the end outcome was fine.
Guy: It's a lot harder to to put a negative slant on
Guy: that and say, oh, well, you failed and you
Guy: should be punished or you should be fired or
Guy: something like this, because overall the outcome
Guy: was was positive and an outcome can be positive
Guy: as well even if the project fails because
Guy: there's learnings from that and things like this.
Guy: Listening I think is also very important, like
Guy: to listen to your colleagues, to listen to your
Guy: managers. I mean, they expect you to listen, but
Guy: actually listen between the lines sometimes
Guy: because there may be other things going on and
Guy: they're being able to, as the Japanese say, they
Guy: they read the air. Right. Breathe the air in the
Guy: room, understands the the unspoken context of
Guy: things. That can be very useful, but you need to
Guy: kind of tune in. You need to achieve your senses
Guy: to be able to do that. I think that can be very
Guy: important as well. But just demonstrating an
Guy: active listening and intentional listening to
Guy: people can make a huge difference as well,
Guy: because then that encourages other people that
Guy: that puts you into a more
Guy: thoughtful sort of position and and you learn a
Guy: lot. I mean, the less that you're talking, the
Guy: more you're listening, I think the more that you
Guy: actually learn. So that's where I'll stop
Guy: talking. . .
Daniele: Yeah, it's
Daniele: It's impressive, you know, how we can kind of
Daniele: bring all of this back to Just one idea that, uh,
Daniele: which again, sounds a bit cheesy. Sounds very
Daniele: simple, but it's often forget, which is
Daniele: do what you would like people to do for you. Be
Daniele: that example, you know. Do you think we should
Daniele: listen more? Listen more? You know. Do you think
Daniele: it will be great that we share more compliments
Daniele: about each other's work? Share compliments.
Daniele: People will do the same, you know. And you think
Daniele: it's important that we learn from mistakes.
Daniele: Share your mistakes.
Daniele: And I think this is one thing that is extremely
Daniele: important at work, which is
Daniele: instead of waiting that the change happens at
Daniele: work, make it happen at your own level and show
Daniele: it so that it can be an example and then others
Daniele: can copy it, adapt it more fit, and then
Daniele: suddenly it becomes something that that's that
Daniele: gets shared and it gets more important. And if
Daniele: we do that, it saves the organisation, obviously.
Daniele: And if we come back to our services and in view
Daniele: of things, it then also serves better to
Daniele: the people.
Guy: Absolutely. This has been a really good
Guy: conversation and maybe we'll revisit it in the
Guy: future in some other areas. So I'm sure that it
Guy: will come up again at some point. But for today,
Guy: thanks for the great in-depth conversation. I
Guy: think we covered quite a lot. And yeah, it's a
Guy: it's just a joy to have these conversations with
Guy: you, Danielle.
Daniele: It's always a great moment to share these these
Daniele: reflections with you. Hearing your your point of
Daniele: view is always something that is fascinating to
Daniele: me and you always add a level of
Daniele: contextualization, which I love, you know,
Daniele: especially, you know, like, oh, be careful about
Daniele: that. You know, just like not follow, which is
Daniele: by the letter, you know, the there is a bit more
Daniele: context to it, which, which is something that I
Daniele: feel I feel is very important and, a yeah I
Daniele: think if we can just give one call to action is
Daniele: you know that people, you know, it's in the word
Daniele: service design, you know, we design services,
Daniele: but to make these services we also decide how
Daniele: work is happening. So, you know, design your
Daniele: workplace, design how work happens.
Guy: Very insightful. Thank you very much, Daniel.
Guy: And we'll look forward to the next one.
Daniele: Absolutely. See you guys.
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