WEBVTT 00:02.588 --> 00:04.688 Welcome to Service Design Principles. I'm Guy 00:04.688 --> 00:06.548 Martin, joined by the author of the Service 00:06.548 --> 00:08.708 Design Principles series of Books, founder of 00:08.708 --> 00:10.958 the Swiss Innovation Academy and service design 00:10.958 --> 00:13.598 practicioner, the employee of the month, Daniele 00:13.598 --> 00:15.008 Catalanotto. Hi, Daniele. 00:15.816 --> 00:18.816 Employee of the month! So it's the first time I 00:18.816 --> 00:22.146 get the employee of the month. So I feel very 00:22.146 --> 00:25.446 privileged of being your your employee of the 00:25.446 --> 00:28.236 month, this month. Thanks so much for the 00:28.236 --> 00:30.936 invitation and I'm excited for a great 00:30.936 --> 00:31.716 conversation. 00:32.505 --> 00:35.535 Yeah, me too. I'm always excited to talk to you 00:35.745 --> 00:38.205 about service design or any other philosophical 00:38.205 --> 00:39.915 matters that may come up during the course of 00:39.915 --> 00:43.755 our conversation. So thanks for being here. Now, 00:43.755 --> 00:45.915 every episode we look at some of the principles 00:45.915 --> 00:48.135 from your book Service Design Principles 1 to 00:48.135 --> 00:50.745 100. And this time we're talking about the 00:50.745 --> 00:54.712 workplace. So the practice of service design is 00:54.712 --> 00:57.772 often conflated with the idea of user experience, 00:57.772 --> 01:00.412 which is quite focused on how to make the user 01:00.652 --> 01:02.902 or the customer experience as good as possible. 01:03.621 --> 01:05.811 But service design is a little more holistic 01:05.811 --> 01:08.091 than that, and it also includes employee 01:08.091 --> 01:10.461 experience and even supplier experience in the 01:10.461 --> 01:13.424 scope of designing services. So why should we be 01:13.424 --> 01:15.344 concerned about the employee experience, Daniele? 01:16.132 --> 01:19.982 So that's this is a very this is a thing that is 01:19.982 --> 01:20.912 very dear to me. 01:22.949 --> 01:25.889 I feel what makes the difference between service 01:25.889 --> 01:30.676 design and other fields is really this - in a 01:30.676 --> 01:34.336 technical way, we often say front stage and back 01:34.336 --> 01:40.036 stage. So, yes, we look at what needs to happen. 01:40.036 --> 01:42.846 what what we want to create for people like the 01:42.856 --> 01:47.796 experience that we want users to go through and 01:47.806 --> 01:50.656 have with our organisation. But in service 01:50.656 --> 01:53.356 design, what I love is that we always ask the 01:53.356 --> 01:58.350 question, okay, to make this happen, what's all 01:58.350 --> 02:01.260 the shitty work that we have to do? What are all 02:01.260 --> 02:04.440 the processes? Who are the partners that we need? 02:04.710 --> 02:06.720 Who are the decision makers that we need to 02:06.720 --> 02:08.970 convince? it's a kind of like a much more 02:08.970 --> 02:13.290 realistic way of thinking about customer 02:13.290 --> 02:18.492 experience. And and therefore it shows that, 02:18.822 --> 02:22.452 there is not one without the other. You don't 02:22.452 --> 02:25.632 have a great experience if you don't have 02:25.992 --> 02:30.972 employees making it happen. And if you have no 02:30.972 --> 02:33.672 users, you don't have the money to pay for 02:33.672 --> 02:36.152 employees it's kind of like there's this yin 02:36.162 --> 02:39.492 yang thing where where you need both and you 02:39.492 --> 02:42.402 need to take care of both. Or it's this chicken 02:42.402 --> 02:45.192 and egg thing where where you can't you don't 02:45.192 --> 02:46.542 really know what came first. 02:48.552 --> 02:50.892 Was it the client who said, we need something 02:50.892 --> 02:54.852 and then you created a or was it the the service 02:54.852 --> 02:57.422 provider who said, "oh, we can do this. ". And 02:57.432 --> 03:01.131 then they find the client. But but it really 03:01.131 --> 03:03.621 shows one thing which is important. And I think 03:03.621 --> 03:07.881 the the best example I might have for that is 03:07.881 --> 03:13.201 hospitals. And what it shows is, the staff is 03:13.201 --> 03:20.069 important. If your nurses, your doctors, are are 03:20.339 --> 03:24.569 burned out, too stressed. Hate the admin. Hate 03:24.569 --> 03:28.019 all of that. what will happen is when the 03:28.019 --> 03:30.717 patient arrives, he will be treated they treat. 03:31.714 --> 03:35.974 He will have a moment of he will arrive there at 03:35.974 --> 03:40.234 the hospital and feel treated so badly that then 03:40.234 --> 03:43.284 it really then has, a psychological effect on 03:43.284 --> 03:46.224 the health, too, and then it's it's really a 03:46.224 --> 03:48.804 disservice to the person, but then also to the 03:48.804 --> 03:51.834 organisation because it will take more time, 03:51.924 --> 03:54.474 because these people will have complaints, they 03:54.474 --> 03:58.014 will ask to see a second doctor, who will be 03:58.014 --> 04:02.064 again pissed off and, and then we will need you 04:02.064 --> 04:05.034 will need to see a third doctor and maybe it has 04:05.034 --> 04:10.781 then to go up to the lawyers. If managed better, 04:10.811 --> 04:13.151 if the employee experience is managed better, 04:13.391 --> 04:18.392 all of that doesn't happen because clients are 04:18.392 --> 04:22.472 happier. And and so I think this is just 04:22.472 --> 04:26.762 understanding that if we take good care of our 04:26.762 --> 04:30.723 employees, there is a reciprocity that happens. 04:31.353 --> 04:34.953 it's like when you treat well, your kids, and 04:35.733 --> 04:38.973 when you are polite with your kids, when you ask 04:38.973 --> 04:41.853 them something, you say, please, there is more 04:41.853 --> 04:44.343 chance that they are polite back with you, 04:45.693 --> 04:49.713 because they mimic they mimic behavior and they 04:49.713 --> 04:52.353 think employees not saying that they are 04:52.353 --> 04:55.413 children, but saying that they are humans. We 04:55.413 --> 04:59.433 humans, we mimic each other's we do what others 04:59.433 --> 05:02.853 do to us. If we do good stuff to each other, 05:03.513 --> 05:06.213 there is a bigger chance that employees do good 05:06.213 --> 05:10.675 stuff to the clients. if we are stressed, put 05:10.675 --> 05:14.545 our our staff under pressure. What might happen 05:14.545 --> 05:18.595 is just that they pass also clients under 05:18.595 --> 05:22.465 pressure. And so this is really the magic I find 05:22.465 --> 05:26.375 in the in the in the in the in service design, 05:26.395 --> 05:30.475 which is this this kind of double view, and 05:30.475 --> 05:31.675 understanding that 05:33.695 --> 05:37.005 you treat if you want to treat your customers 05:37.005 --> 05:39.105 well, you have to treat your employees well. 05:40.331 --> 05:42.881 If you treat your employees like crap, then 05:42.881 --> 05:44.501 you're saying that it's acceptable to treat 05:44.501 --> 05:47.471 people like crap. And then, you have to expect 05:47.471 --> 05:49.811 that that maybe your customers will be treated 05:49.811 --> 05:53.651 like crap as well. So, it all goes back to like 05:53.651 --> 05:55.961 the culture and, the standards that are set and 05:55.961 --> 05:58.241 the expectations that are set within the culture 05:58.241 --> 06:01.754 of the of the workplace as well. Treating your 06:01.754 --> 06:06.118 employees well doesn't just stop at, being nice 06:06.118 --> 06:08.008 to them. Right. There's, there's other things 06:08.008 --> 06:10.738 around just being a pleasant person or a 06:10.738 --> 06:14.548 pleasant manager or boss to employees. There are 06:14.548 --> 06:17.098 other more tangible things as well 06:17.507 --> 06:23.086 Yeah, absolutely. And principal, uh, 37, says 06:23.506 --> 06:25.666 "To improve your service, start by paying your 06:25.666 --> 06:28.816 employees well. ". we often say, people don't 06:28.816 --> 06:32.296 stay in a job because of the money, you know, 06:33.466 --> 06:38.026 but I think many studies show, that money is 06:38.026 --> 06:41.356 correlated to a certain level of happiness up to 06:41.356 --> 06:45.996 a certain point. And then once you get to the 06:45.996 --> 06:49.386 kind of basic needs met, money doesn't make such 06:49.386 --> 06:51.816 a big difference anymore. And I think the with 06:51.816 --> 06:55.506 salaries basically the same, up to a certain 06:55.506 --> 06:58.206 point, salary makes a big difference in the 06:58.206 --> 07:02.256 lives of people and in the way that they, are 07:02.256 --> 07:05.676 involved in the service or are involved within 07:05.676 --> 07:09.846 the organization, And then beyond that, if you 07:09.846 --> 07:14.391 add one K or two K more, it doesn't make that 07:14.391 --> 07:17.991 big of a difference. But in the service industry, 07:18.381 --> 07:21.801 we are often below that tipping points. we are 07:21.801 --> 07:26.841 often below the point where, uh, people say, if 07:26.841 --> 07:30.741 you would add one K more in my, uh, in my salary, 07:31.191 --> 07:34.071 the difference wouldn't be as big. You know, I 07:34.071 --> 07:38.181 think a lot of the frontline stuff, is, is 07:38.181 --> 07:44.006 definitely paid in a very shitty way and they 07:44.006 --> 07:46.346 are very there are a lot of examples, of 07:46.346 --> 07:49.556 companies that have taken that seriously and 07:49.556 --> 07:50.996 have understood that 07:52.772 --> 07:55.562 if they pay well, their employees who are on the 07:55.562 --> 07:58.002 front lines because these are the people who 07:58.132 --> 08:01.702 create the experiences, then the customer 08:01.702 --> 08:04.642 satisfaction goes up, then revenue goes up. And, 08:04.882 --> 08:07.882 and so there are these examples and and they 08:07.882 --> 08:11.812 exist. You can move them. And so therefore the 08:11.962 --> 08:14.002 the kind of view where we where we say, these 08:14.002 --> 08:16.912 are the people that the frontline workers are 08:16.912 --> 08:19.822 people that are replaceable and therefore we can 08:20.542 --> 08:23.702 pay them low wages, is a bad calculation in the 08:23.702 --> 08:26.156 end of the day. we have very good examples of 08:26.156 --> 08:29.456 that. in certain industries and countries, and 08:29.456 --> 08:32.936 as I have a habit of, uh, always naming when 08:32.936 --> 08:35.616 it's great and never naming and when it's bad. 08:35.616 --> 08:37.646 So I will continue with that because I think 08:37.856 --> 08:41.636 it's a good practice, but, uh, I've seen places 08:41.636 --> 08:46.846 where really, uh, people then tell you, Oh, I 08:46.846 --> 08:50.266 will not help you more because I'm not paid to 08:50.266 --> 08:52.486 do this shit, that's kind of like the reaction 08:52.486 --> 08:55.006 that I got once from a service worker when they 08:55.006 --> 08:57.646 had a few questions, and I was like, Hey, no, I 08:57.646 --> 08:59.536 don't understand that. And the guy just said, 09:00.556 --> 09:04.371 You know, I'm not paid enough to do that. I was 09:04.371 --> 09:08.391 like, okay, at least this is very honest. it's a 09:08.391 --> 09:14.721 very honest feedback. But like what view of the 09:14.721 --> 09:17.321 service does that give to me? like, okay, now 09:17.321 --> 09:20.954 I'm seeing that this doesn't matter so much, 09:22.902 --> 09:26.724 but instead, imagine if someone said to you, Oh, 09:26.724 --> 09:28.824 go on. I'm paid for that. 09:29.534 --> 09:29.944 Yeah. 09:29.840 --> 09:31.970 That's what we'd love to hear. someone who tells 09:31.970 --> 09:35.030 you when you say yourself as a customer or I'm 09:35.030 --> 09:37.610 so sorry to ask another question, that maybe 09:37.610 --> 09:41.660 this is a very Swiss thing to say, but we as a 09:41.660 --> 09:45.260 Swiss guy, I would say if I'm asking if you a 09:45.260 --> 09:47.660 few too many questions, I will say, Oh, I'm so 09:47.660 --> 09:49.670 sorry to ask you so many questions or to make 09:49.670 --> 09:53.570 you work more. And then the person should say, 09:54.290 --> 09:58.509 Oh, this is my job. I am paid to do that. Go on. 09:59.444 --> 10:02.894 Imagine this is a very different experience. 10:03.623 --> 10:06.203 I think like I've worked in service industry and 10:06.203 --> 10:08.843 my wife has worked in service industry and we've 10:09.303 --> 10:11.213 talk about this before as well when we've 10:11.723 --> 10:14.663 encountered, bad service or bad conditions in 10:14.663 --> 10:17.525 workplaces. And I think that a lot of people 10:17.525 --> 10:21.335 that choose to be in the service industry put up 10:21.335 --> 10:24.185 with a lot more crap from their employers 10:24.425 --> 10:28.865 because they get a they get a reward, an 10:28.865 --> 10:31.415 intrinsic reward from providing a service, from 10:31.415 --> 10:34.535 being a service provider. And saying, you know, 10:34.685 --> 10:38.393 I've helped someone today. And so they sort of 10:38.393 --> 10:40.493 undervalue themselves when it comes to the 10:40.493 --> 10:42.683 financial aspect. And they say, oh, well, you 10:42.683 --> 10:46.373 know, I don't get paid that well, but I get to, 10:46.433 --> 10:49.103 help people or I get to, make someone's day 10:49.103 --> 10:52.493 better. And I think that may be some employers 10:52.493 --> 10:55.433 may take advantage of that and say, yeah, but 10:55.523 --> 10:57.083 you're doing what you love. You're doing what 10:57.083 --> 10:59.363 you enjoy. Why are you asking about the money 10:59.363 --> 11:02.333 side of it? Is it just about money? And, you 11:02.333 --> 11:05.763 know, the way that conversation goes. So, that, 11:05.843 --> 11:09.623 that as you say, that that baseline almost 11:09.623 --> 11:13.133 hygiene level of financial security to say, okay, 11:13.373 --> 11:16.073 I don't feel that I'm underpaid. I feel that I'm 11:16.433 --> 11:18.923 paid fairly for the work that I do 11:20.753 --> 11:24.533 is essential. And once you get that, then those 11:24.533 --> 11:27.263 employees will give back, even more value than 11:27.263 --> 11:28.013 what you're giving them. 11:28.068 --> 11:31.158 Absolutely. And especially if you then go beyond 11:31.158 --> 11:34.668 because I think salaries, obviously, as we said, 11:35.058 --> 11:37.868 is maybe just one of the first of the aspects. 11:37.878 --> 11:40.638 It's a very important aspect. Let's not let's 11:40.638 --> 11:43.458 not lie to ourselves. It's kind of the baseline 11:43.458 --> 11:45.018 stuff. This is essential. 11:46.788 --> 11:50.777 I've seen stuff where trainees said laughing to 11:50.777 --> 11:53.177 each other you know the chair I'm sitting on 11:53.177 --> 11:56.237 costs more than my monthly salary. And then you 11:56.237 --> 11:59.507 hear that kind of talk, this is bad stuff. this 11:59.747 --> 12:02.687 this is like if you feel someone valued as much 12:02.687 --> 12:08.477 as the place they put their butt on, and that it 12:08.657 --> 12:11.777 this is not great stuff. But once you you are 12:11.777 --> 12:15.107 beyond that where when you have done the the you 12:15.107 --> 12:19.587 have a fair salaries then there are other things 12:19.587 --> 12:22.647 that you can make that creates really a great 12:22.647 --> 12:26.067 workplace. And I think one of of the the good 12:26.067 --> 12:27.177 examples is 12:27.387 --> 12:30.957 this notion of "work can wait", putting 12:31.017 --> 12:35.427 boundaries to the work as an employer. T is also 12:35.427 --> 12:39.607 kind of a great example, I think, of of setting 12:39.607 --> 12:43.917 a workplace that is calm where people say, oh, I 12:43.927 --> 12:46.057 am excited to get back to work, you know, 12:47.867 --> 12:51.947 But for that as an employer, we need to set up 12:51.947 --> 12:54.257 the boundaries so that people at ease can say, 12:54.617 --> 12:58.347 I'm excited to get back to work because they 12:58.347 --> 13:01.557 have stopped to come to come at work at one time. 13:02.395 --> 13:06.355 Yeah. So, you know, we during COVID especially, 13:06.355 --> 13:09.655 we had a lot about, work life balance. And then 13:10.285 --> 13:12.925 then the key word was work life integration. And, 13:13.195 --> 13:16.915 I've been working remotely for over ten years. 13:16.915 --> 13:20.575 And so there's always been aspects of that in my 13:20.575 --> 13:25.975 career. But it's right that it's very important 13:25.975 --> 13:30.275 that there's an example from, the people that 13:30.275 --> 13:32.435 are in charge from the decision makers, fr your 13:32.435 --> 13:35.615 bosses and managers to say, okay, well, human 13:35.615 --> 13:37.715 first and then work next in a way. 13:37.481 --> 13:40.601 Yeah, absolutely. And and remembering people. 13:40.601 --> 13:44.511 That's at the end of the day, it's just a job, 13:44.811 --> 13:50.191 And a job is basically a transaction where we 13:50.191 --> 13:53.611 say, I'm, I'm giving you that many hours of my 13:53.611 --> 13:58.321 time or I'm okay to do these activities in 13:58.321 --> 14:03.871 exchange for money and a few other benefits. But 14:03.871 --> 14:07.171 it has boundaries, and being very clear on that, 14:07.481 --> 14:11.551 I think is very healthy. Sometimes we we forget 14:11.551 --> 14:16.411 that. And I think even sometimes, people as 14:16.411 --> 14:19.301 employees, we get very motivated about our jobs. 14:19.301 --> 14:22.491 And it's it's sometimes good to say, hey, uh, 14:22.951 --> 14:26.971 it's okay to now stop tomorrow. We can work 14:26.981 --> 14:30.371 again. it's like with my kid when I have to say 14:30.371 --> 14:35.251 him, I now we going to stop to play Lego, but 14:35.251 --> 14:39.451 tomorrow we can play Lego again. it creates 14:39.441 --> 14:41.941 value to play in Lego. if we wouldn't stop to 14:41.931 --> 14:45.341 play Lego, then it wouldn't be fun again. And 14:45.751 --> 14:48.211 and I think work is the same, even if we love it, 14:48.211 --> 14:52.251 we have to put a few boundaries to it. And 14:52.251 --> 14:57.351 sometimes it's not the one who's playing who has 14:57.351 --> 15:00.161 the distance to put the boundaries. Sometimes it 15:00.181 --> 15:04.501 is, but especially in the workplace, kind of the 15:04.491 --> 15:10.191 authority, the pressure can feel very strong and 15:10.351 --> 15:12.681 then having someone setting the example and say 15:12.951 --> 15:17.211 it's okay that now we use we stop working is a 15:17.211 --> 15:18.141 very good example. 15:18.547 --> 15:23.017 I see on LinkedIn occasionally these hustle 15:23.497 --> 15:26.947 culture posts where people are saying, I worked 15:26.947 --> 15:30.947 20 hours a day and I only had a small bowl of 15:30.947 --> 15:32.717 cereal for breakfast. That's all I ate all day. 15:32.717 --> 15:35.987 But you have to do this in order to succeed. And 15:35.987 --> 15:38.567 I think that's actually pretty toxic. it feels 15:38.567 --> 15:41.837 like it's sending the wrong message to people 15:41.837 --> 15:45.437 that are either an employee or they're starting 15:45.437 --> 15:46.907 up a business or something that, 15:49.647 --> 15:52.437 you don't have to hustle so hard to to be a 15:52.427 --> 15:56.087 success. And in fact, you're moving so fast and 15:56.097 --> 15:59.387 not taking time for things that are outside the 15:59.397 --> 16:03.647 work realm actually can reduce your worldview 16:03.657 --> 16:06.947 and make it narrower. And and you burn out a lot 16:06.947 --> 16:10.557 quicker. I mean, that's that's part of this, 16:10.557 --> 16:12.597 right? It's it's it's as you say, it's setting 16:12.597 --> 16:15.677 boundaries for for for yourself and for your 16:15.717 --> 16:16.107 people. 16:16.526 --> 16:19.196 Absolutely. And I think it goes with this idea 16:19.196 --> 16:24.006 that often in service design, we're not in this 16:24.006 --> 16:27.956 perspective of trying, just to sell. 16:29.936 --> 16:33.806 often, hustle culture from what I see comes 16:33.806 --> 16:37.226 often from people who are more on the selling 16:37.226 --> 16:40.766 side than on the service side, because on the 16:40.766 --> 16:43.496 selling side, you can say, Oh, I've sold now 16:43.496 --> 16:48.186 it's done. it's kind of product mindset. I, I've 16:48.186 --> 16:52.236 sold 200 bits of that and now it's done. And so 16:52.386 --> 16:55.956 if I push more, I can sell more, But in the 16:55.956 --> 16:59.196 service mindset, you want to serve people in a 16:59.196 --> 17:03.486 sustainable way for years. And so it doesn't 17:04.476 --> 17:08.406 bring anything, t hustle because what's the 17:08.406 --> 17:11.636 hustle, in the marriage? how can you hustle a 17:11.636 --> 17:13.946 marriage? it's it's a relationship. It's 17:13.946 --> 17:16.676 something that that you could do for fucking a 17:16.676 --> 17:19.946 long time, so you can't really hustle a marriage, 17:20.216 --> 17:23.696 you invest time. Y also have to set boundaries. 17:23.696 --> 17:26.066 you have to do a lot of that work. And I think 17:26.066 --> 17:28.586 it's the same with services where what we're 17:28.586 --> 17:31.436 trying to do is not selling, it's not having one 17:31.436 --> 17:34.466 night stands with clients. What we're trying to 17:34.646 --> 17:38.205 have is marriages. And obviously there are some 17:38.205 --> 17:41.631 marriages. that's where that have a type where 17:41.631 --> 17:44.631 it's for a few weeks, a few months, a few years 17:44.901 --> 17:48.621 and there are lifetime marriages even with 17:48.621 --> 17:52.071 clients, and and that's okay. But the difference 17:52.071 --> 17:57.331 is really that is that we if we see it long term, 17:58.581 --> 18:02.031 then the speed is not so much important anymore. 18:02.901 --> 18:06.621 But the break starts to be much more important 18:06.621 --> 18:09.261 because we going to have to do that for a long, 18:09.261 --> 18:12.831 long, long, long time. And therefore we have to 18:12.831 --> 18:16.261 manage our energy level in the right way. And 18:16.761 --> 18:20.121 and maybe that's a bit of a shift from 18:20.121 --> 18:21.981 especially if you coming a bit from a marketing 18:21.981 --> 18:25.731 background or something like that where it's the 18:25.731 --> 18:28.551 numbers of stuff that you get out that matters. 18:28.971 --> 18:33.201 And here is like how many people you keep in 18:33.321 --> 18:36.921 that matters, which is a very different mindset. 18:37.589 --> 18:41.429 I think work has been sort of based on this 18:41.429 --> 18:45.029 industrial workplace mentality for so long where 18:45.029 --> 18:47.909 you can measure productivity with, you know, the 18:47.909 --> 18:49.679 amount of widgets, the amount of things that get 18:49.679 --> 18:52.019 produced. But when we're talking about knowledge 18:52.019 --> 18:56.369 work, and I think many, many people now aren't 18:56.369 --> 18:59.219 producing widgets directly, they're part of a 18:59.219 --> 19:01.889 bigger ecosystem that is, you know, a part of 19:01.889 --> 19:04.169 the administration or they're doing back end 19:04.169 --> 19:06.869 support or there's so many other things, but 19:06.869 --> 19:08.519 they're they're based in knowledge. So 19:08.519 --> 19:10.949 productivity can't be measured with number of 19:10.949 --> 19:14.429 widgets produced or number of widgets sold. So 19:14.429 --> 19:20.969 that whole idea of the industrial manufacturing 19:20.999 --> 19:25.729 idea of productivity, it persists in some 19:25.729 --> 19:29.899 workplaces today, even though that's not how we 19:29.899 --> 19:33.499 are productive in today's society, in our in 19:33.499 --> 19:36.889 today's workplaces. So changing that and 19:36.879 --> 19:39.639 shifting that and saying, okay, well, it's not 19:39.639 --> 19:42.109 just about, you know, producing produce and 19:42.099 --> 19:46.539 producing. There's this balance. And it makes me 19:46.549 --> 19:51.649 think of of David Marquet's book "Leadership is 19:51.639 --> 19:53.899 Language", where he talks about the difference 19:53.889 --> 19:56.779 between red work and blue work and red work is. 19:56.769 --> 19:58.869 when you're executing stuff and you're doing 19:58.879 --> 20:01.489 things, but then you need to balance that with 20:01.479 --> 20:04.119 blue work, which is the the thinking and the 20:04.129 --> 20:06.609 consideration and and that sort of stuff. 20:07.299 --> 20:10.779 Because if you just keep on doing, then there's 20:10.779 --> 20:15.489 no space for learning or reflection or, you know, 20:15.489 --> 20:18.639 thinking about what's to come. So it's always 20:18.639 --> 20:22.989 about this balance. So by forcing yourself to, 20:23.059 --> 20:26.499 to stop responding to emails after 5:00 or 20:26.499 --> 20:29.739 whatever, it's still means that, okay, it 20:29.739 --> 20:31.329 doesn't mean that you have to stop thinking 20:31.329 --> 20:33.069 about stuff. You can still think about it, but 20:33.069 --> 20:35.499 it's in a different sort of way that you do it. 20:35.499 --> 20:39.009 It's a more relaxed and different perspective 20:39.009 --> 20:41.259 way that things can happen. And it may be that 20:41.469 --> 20:42.969 you have those shower moments - you're in the 20:42.969 --> 20:45.729 shower at 10:00 at night and go, Oh, I've just 20:45.729 --> 20:47.229 thought of something that would solve my problem 20:47.229 --> 20:50.759 for tomorrow. So if you're always hustling and 20:50.769 --> 20:53.019 you're always working and it doesn't stop, 20:53.549 --> 20:55.529 there's no room for that sort of reflection. 20:57.057 --> 21:02.737 Abso. And, you know, often I try I like to 21:02.737 --> 21:06.067 explain it in that way. I say, would you like to 21:06.067 --> 21:11.337 have drunk people at work? And then people say, 21:11.337 --> 21:14.667 no, I wouldn't like to have a drunk employee at 21:14.667 --> 21:18.567 work then. And then I cite the research that is. 21:19.017 --> 21:22.497 And that is done on sleep where it has been 21:22.497 --> 21:25.707 shown. From what I remember that, you know, 21:25.707 --> 21:29.217 someone who is not sleeping right, has kind of 21:29.217 --> 21:32.727 like the same issues as someone who's drunk when 21:32.727 --> 21:36.947 they drive, Which tells me that if you want 21:36.947 --> 21:40.067 people to be overworked, if you want to use them 21:40.067 --> 21:42.887 in that way. Basically what you're going to get 21:42.887 --> 21:46.297 at the end is drunk people and drunk people. 21:46.307 --> 21:49.547 They don't answer great emails. You know, they 21:49.547 --> 21:53.387 create more problems with their peers. So I 21:53.387 --> 21:57.457 would prefer to say let's make people stop at a 21:57.797 --> 22:02.297 at a fair moment so that they can get a fair 22:02.297 --> 22:05.777 amount of rest and a fair amount of family time 22:05.777 --> 22:10.347 and personal time so that the next day I get not 22:10.347 --> 22:15.477 the drunk guy, but they get the well rested guy 22:15.567 --> 22:18.567 who when he sees his email list and the problems 22:18.567 --> 22:22.137 that arrive from stakeholders, decision makers 22:22.137 --> 22:24.867 and people like that, that he isn't like in 22:24.867 --> 22:29.607 panic mode, but rather like, okay, I can manage 22:29.937 --> 22:31.947 and manages in a good way. 22:32.447 --> 22:35.057 If I'm going in for surgery with a doctor that's 22:35.057 --> 22:39.467 been on for 9 hours already, I'd rather wait for 22:39.467 --> 22:43.907 the next day. Right. Don't put me in in with 22:43.907 --> 22:46.247 someone that's at the end of their shift and is 22:46.247 --> 22:48.217