1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:11,240 Welcome to the NGI Zero podcast where we talk to the people who are building the next generation 2 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:12,240 internet. 3 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:14,040 I am Ronny Lam. 4 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:15,640 And I am Tessel Renzenbrink. 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:20,100 We're both from NLnet, a foundation which supports people who are working on free and 6 00:00:20,100 --> 00:00:22,300 open source technologies. 7 00:00:22,300 --> 00:00:27,760 For season two of this podcast we will be focusing on digital sovereignty through free 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,320 and open source technologies. 9 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,400 Our guest today is Christophe Alexandre. 10 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:37,160 Together with Noam Cohen they founded Kepler Tech. 11 00:00:37,160 --> 00:00:42,320 We will be talking about their project Naja EDA, an open source Electronic Design Automation 12 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:43,320 tool. 13 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,440 Welcome Christophe and thank you for joining us. 14 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,120 Hello, I'm very happy to join you. 15 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:58,760 So Christophe, I was wondering, where do we meet semiconductors in our lives? 16 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:03,000 Well you know, basically pretty much everywhere. 17 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,320 Even if we don't often realize it. 18 00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:14,400 Nowadays semiconductors or chips are the invisible force behind the modern world. 19 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:15,400 They're everywhere. 20 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:24,920 They power the devices we rely on every day like laptops, smartphones, cars, TVs, even 21 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,600 fridges in your kitchen. 22 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:33,640 And now of course with the rise of artificial intelligence they're more essential than 23 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:34,640 ever. 24 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:39,600 They provide the computing power that makes AI possible. 25 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:46,320 So yes, we may not think about them often, but without semiconductors today's digital 26 00:01:46,320 --> 00:01:50,200 life simply wouldn't exist. 27 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:57,120 Yeah that shows very well how important it is in our lives. 28 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:03,920 So thinking about how important it is, it's interesting to see that during the COVID pandemic, 29 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:11,040 supply chain, the global supply chain was disrupted seriously and there were severe 30 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,360 chip shortages. 31 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:19,320 And next to that there's also the current geopolitical situation that has placed technological 32 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,720 sovereignty high on the agenda in Europe. 33 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:27,800 And there is a push for to increase the domestic production. 34 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:32,640 Can you explain why the semiconductor industry is so vulnerable to disruptions? 35 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:41,680 Yes, so due to its complexity the semiconductor industry is very global and very interconnected. 36 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:48,520 So it makes it sort of fragile in some sense. 37 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:58,080 And since the early 2000s most chip companies have adopted what is called the Fabless model. 38 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:05,360 So this means they focus only on designing chips while the actual manufacturing is outsourced 39 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:10,040 to very specialized foundries. 40 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:18,040 A good example which makes the news from time to time is TSMC in Taiwan. 41 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:25,600 They produce the most advanced chips like the ones that are using 3 nanometer technology. 42 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,560 But there is also a dependency here. 43 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:35,920 Those foundries, they rely on extremely sophisticated machines, photolithography systems, which 44 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,280 are almost entirely produced by just one company. 45 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,360 It's ASML in the Netherlands. 46 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:49,100 So there you've got a situation where just a few players in very specific locations are 47 00:03:49,100 --> 00:03:52,880 responsible for the entire global chip supply. 48 00:03:53,160 --> 00:04:01,000 If anything disrupts one link in that chain, be it a pandemic, a political crisis or just 49 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:08,480 a delay in shipping, it creates a ripple effect that you can feel all around the world. 50 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,820 So we saw this during COVID. 51 00:04:10,820 --> 00:04:17,440 And now of course the geopolitical tensions are making countries, especially in Europe, 52 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,500 rethink how much they rely on external sources. 53 00:04:21,500 --> 00:04:32,180 So that's why there's a push toward technological sovereignty and to boost domestic production. 54 00:04:32,180 --> 00:04:36,660 Can you tell us something about the process of designing and manufacturing chips and specifically 55 00:04:36,660 --> 00:04:40,460 about what Electronic Design Automation is? 56 00:04:40,460 --> 00:04:41,820 Yes, sure. 57 00:04:41,820 --> 00:04:47,380 So designing modern chips is incredibly complex. 58 00:04:47,380 --> 00:04:53,180 We are talking about billions of transistors just packed in few square centimeters of silicon. 59 00:04:53,180 --> 00:05:01,340 So it won't be a surprise to anybody that this design process heavily relies on advanced 60 00:05:01,340 --> 00:05:02,520 software. 61 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:08,020 So that's where Electronic Design Automation or EDA comes in. 62 00:05:08,020 --> 00:05:15,140 So EDA, it's a suite of tools and software that automates and manage every step of the 63 00:05:15,340 --> 00:05:22,900 chip design process from the initial architecture all the way down to physical layout. 64 00:05:22,900 --> 00:05:28,220 And you can think of this as a sort of digital twin of the chip. 65 00:05:28,220 --> 00:05:37,280 Interestingly, this concept exists in EDA even long before this term digital twin became 66 00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:40,540 popular in other industries. 67 00:05:40,540 --> 00:05:45,260 Because designing a chip can cost hundreds of millions of dollars. 68 00:05:45,260 --> 00:05:48,500 So accuracy here is really critical. 69 00:05:48,500 --> 00:05:57,980 And any bug that makes it into the final design sent to the foundry can really kill the entire 70 00:05:57,980 --> 00:06:00,300 investment. 71 00:06:00,300 --> 00:06:11,820 That's why even around 55% of the time that is concentrated in a typical project in EDA 72 00:06:11,820 --> 00:06:14,220 will go towards verification. 73 00:06:14,220 --> 00:06:21,160 Because you need to check and recheck that everything works as intended before manufacturing 74 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,980 happens. 75 00:06:23,980 --> 00:06:31,780 And the other point also in EDA, it is an industry that is dominated by three companies 76 00:06:31,780 --> 00:06:36,340 which control about 85% of the market. 77 00:06:36,340 --> 00:06:42,140 So this kind of monopoly situation tends to limit innovation in a way. 78 00:06:42,140 --> 00:06:48,680 Because with so few players and little competition, the pace of progress in EDA tool is often 79 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,640 slower than what the industry might need. 80 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:57,440 Especially at a time when chip complexity is growing exponentially. 81 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,720 Okay, that's super interesting. 82 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,580 And also about this monopoly that you speak about. 83 00:07:03,580 --> 00:07:09,160 So what then is the role of open source EDA tools in this story? 84 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:16,600 Yes, so for a long time the EDA world was not famous for its openness. 85 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:22,160 It's not like in other software sectors like AI today where open source tools and share 86 00:07:22,180 --> 00:07:24,980 standards are everywhere. 87 00:07:24,980 --> 00:07:30,380 EDA has traditionally been closed. 88 00:07:30,380 --> 00:07:34,580 And not only were open source tools rare, but even the standards themselves weren't 89 00:07:34,580 --> 00:07:36,800 always fully open or consistent. 90 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:42,820 And it's not uncommon to see different companies interpret the same standard in incompatible 91 00:07:42,820 --> 00:07:47,960 ways and this slows progress and collaboration. 92 00:07:47,980 --> 00:07:55,820 But now there's a push to customize hardware for specific workloads. 93 00:07:55,820 --> 00:08:03,860 So you see big software players like Apple and all the GAFAM group that are investing 94 00:08:03,860 --> 00:08:06,560 in their own chip designs. 95 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:13,080 And it's now not just the tech giants, but you also see startups and SMEs that are jumping 96 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,060 into. 97 00:08:15,060 --> 00:08:27,720 So the open source ecosystem can be, we think, a very good answer to those new needs. 98 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:34,660 So the next big challenge is to evolve this open source ecosystem and to improve tool 99 00:08:34,660 --> 00:08:43,220 integration, to handle more complex hierarchical design, and to be able to ultimately support 100 00:08:43,620 --> 00:08:52,020 industrial grade chips at advanced nodes, which means the advanced foundry technologies. 101 00:08:53,460 --> 00:09:00,920 That's where open source can really start to democratize chip design and really spark 102 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,980 the kind of innovation we've seen in other software fields. 103 00:09:05,540 --> 00:09:06,500 Yeah, sounds good. 104 00:09:07,460 --> 00:09:15,620 So can you explain what Naja is and how does it fit in the EDA field? 105 00:09:15,620 --> 00:09:18,500 And why did you choose to make it open source? 106 00:09:19,460 --> 00:09:29,380 Yes, so Naja is an open source EDA project we created to help build the next generation 107 00:09:29,380 --> 00:09:32,180 of EDA tools. 108 00:09:32,180 --> 00:09:40,180 So, especially in the area of physical synthesis, which is a critical and complex part of chip 109 00:09:40,180 --> 00:09:42,340 design. 110 00:09:42,340 --> 00:09:48,980 And our main goal is to provide industrial quality APIs that can serve as a foundation 111 00:09:48,980 --> 00:09:52,820 for other open source tools. 112 00:09:52,820 --> 00:09:59,700 So we've built Naja since day one with industry level performance in mind. 113 00:09:59,700 --> 00:10:07,860 So we have the core of the APIs and the tools that are in C++ for speed and efficiency. 114 00:10:07,860 --> 00:10:13,860 But we also provide a clean and easy to install Python interface. 115 00:10:13,860 --> 00:10:20,980 So that means even people who aren't C++ experts, like students, researchers, or startups, can 116 00:10:20,980 --> 00:10:24,900 use it and contribute. 117 00:10:24,900 --> 00:10:30,820 And today you can literally install it with just a pip install command and get started. 118 00:10:32,900 --> 00:10:35,620 And so why we made it open source? 119 00:10:35,620 --> 00:10:41,140 So it's really because we believe openness can drive innovation. 120 00:10:42,100 --> 00:10:49,140 And we think the semiconductor industry can't keep relying on closed and tools that are 121 00:10:49,140 --> 00:10:52,820 in silos if we want to see real progress. 122 00:10:53,540 --> 00:11:02,100 And so we want Naja to be a sort of catalyst for this change and to empower engineers and 123 00:11:02,100 --> 00:11:10,980 researchers to build better tools faster and to help bring open source EDA to the same 124 00:11:10,980 --> 00:11:17,140 level of maturity as other fields in software like AI, for instance. 125 00:11:17,380 --> 00:11:22,580 So with your work with Naja, you obviously know a lot about the semiconductor industry. 126 00:11:22,580 --> 00:11:27,860 Can you tell us something more about whether the industry welcomes innovation? 127 00:11:29,300 --> 00:11:36,980 So in a way, I mean, it has to, because the semiconductor industry depends on constant 128 00:11:36,980 --> 00:11:42,020 innovation to keep up with the technological progress. 129 00:11:42,660 --> 00:11:50,100 So everybody knows about Moore's Law, and now it's even if it's slowing, but we're going 130 00:11:50,100 --> 00:11:57,140 beyond, but there is this constant pressure about the evolving underlying technologies 131 00:11:57,140 --> 00:11:58,340 and the complexity. 132 00:11:58,980 --> 00:12:01,060 So innovation has to be there. 133 00:12:01,780 --> 00:12:08,100 But at the same time, it's a very close and cautious ecosystem because designing and 134 00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:12,420 manufacturing chips is incredibly complex and high risk. 135 00:12:13,380 --> 00:12:19,140 So there is a long standing trust between EDA vendors, chip designers and foundries, 136 00:12:19,140 --> 00:12:21,460 and this plays a big role in this industry. 137 00:12:22,660 --> 00:12:28,020 So newcomers aren't exactly always welcomed with open arms. 138 00:12:28,980 --> 00:12:31,700 You don't get in just by being innovative. 139 00:12:32,340 --> 00:12:37,460 You need to bring solid proven solutions to very serious problems. 140 00:12:39,060 --> 00:12:46,100 That said, we're starting to see shifts because the rise of software driven companies, 141 00:12:46,660 --> 00:12:54,660 startups and SMEs entering the space is beginning to challenge the status quo. 142 00:12:55,220 --> 00:13:00,820 So while change is slow, there is movement and for us, it's promising. 143 00:13:00,980 --> 00:13:11,220 So how then can an open source EDA tools like Naja contribute to a more resilient 144 00:13:11,700 --> 00:13:14,020 semiconductor industry? 145 00:13:14,900 --> 00:13:23,620 Yes, so open source EDA can be a game changer when it comes to building a more resilient 146 00:13:24,660 --> 00:13:26,660 and accessible chip ecosystem. 147 00:13:27,140 --> 00:13:36,420 So first, it lowers the barrier to entry for startups, researchers that can prototype 148 00:13:37,860 --> 00:13:42,900 chip design or tool developments without needing millions in licenses. 149 00:13:43,780 --> 00:13:45,780 So this is already huge for innovation. 150 00:13:46,980 --> 00:13:54,100 But it also enables more specialized tools tailored to new types of hardware instead 151 00:13:54,100 --> 00:14:01,460 of relying on one size fits all solution from the big vendors. 152 00:14:02,900 --> 00:14:13,220 But also it's not just about startups or SMEs because to build a long term pipeline of talents, 153 00:14:14,260 --> 00:14:18,660 we need to empower students and researchers too. 154 00:14:18,820 --> 00:14:26,260 And here open source tools gives universities and academia in general full access to the entire 155 00:14:26,260 --> 00:14:32,260 chip design flow, letting students actually build and test real design. 156 00:14:33,860 --> 00:14:41,860 There is a great example of this, which is a company or a project that is called Tiny Tapeout. 157 00:14:41,860 --> 00:14:49,140 Tiny Tapeout uses open tools to teach newcomers how to design chips. 158 00:14:49,780 --> 00:14:53,300 And it's really from idea to silicon. 159 00:14:54,180 --> 00:15:02,020 And that kind of hands on experience is exactly what the industry needs to grow stronger and more 160 00:15:02,020 --> 00:15:03,060 self reliant. 161 00:15:03,940 --> 00:15:05,220 Yeah, it's really interesting. 162 00:15:05,780 --> 00:15:12,660 You explained really well how open source can help make changes in chip production. 163 00:15:13,940 --> 00:15:19,940 And that brings me to the question about the chips act. 164 00:15:21,060 --> 00:15:26,260 So to increase its technological sovereignty, Europe wants to boost its domestic chip 165 00:15:26,260 --> 00:15:29,620 production from 10% to 20% in 2030. 166 00:15:30,660 --> 00:15:33,220 Can you tell us how this works? 167 00:15:33,380 --> 00:15:38,500 So the EU chips act has been launched in 2023. 168 00:15:39,380 --> 00:15:48,740 And it aims to double Europe's share of global chip production from 10% to 20% by 2030. 169 00:15:49,540 --> 00:15:53,860 So it's a very important step in the development of the chip industry. 170 00:15:54,660 --> 00:16:01,460 And it's also a very important step in the development of the global chip industry. 171 00:16:02,020 --> 00:16:09,780 So the EU chips act is focused on increasing the chip production from 10% to 20% by 2030. 172 00:16:11,140 --> 00:16:13,700 And so it focuses on three main areas. 173 00:16:14,580 --> 00:16:21,140 Investing in research and skills, which is skills is a big subject there. 174 00:16:22,180 --> 00:16:26,500 And also boosting manufacturing by building advanced fabs. 175 00:16:26,980 --> 00:16:34,900 And of course, improving the supply chain resilience to avoid the kind of disruptions 176 00:16:34,900 --> 00:16:36,740 we've seen during the COVID period. 177 00:16:37,380 --> 00:16:42,980 And in this supply chain resilience, EDA plays a key role. 178 00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:50,340 So I think it's really a much needed move. 179 00:16:50,980 --> 00:16:57,860 But here, ambition alone isn't enough. 180 00:16:57,860 --> 00:17:01,780 So the act needs a clear strategic roadmap. 181 00:17:02,900 --> 00:17:06,260 But it must go beyond just factories. 182 00:17:07,300 --> 00:17:11,940 To truly compete globally, we also need to invest in the full ecosystem. 183 00:17:12,740 --> 00:17:19,060 And especially open source EDA to empower innovation from the ground up. 184 00:17:20,020 --> 00:17:26,660 Yeah, so you mean not only just physical manufacturing, but also the skills to actually 185 00:17:26,660 --> 00:17:27,940 design the chips. 186 00:17:27,940 --> 00:17:30,100 And for that, you need the EDA tools. 187 00:17:30,100 --> 00:17:32,900 Yeah, the tools, yes. 188 00:17:33,620 --> 00:17:41,860 And also the skills, meaning engineers, that are trained, 189 00:17:42,100 --> 00:17:44,020 students. 190 00:17:45,780 --> 00:17:53,460 So yeah, a full ecosystem to be able to have a full chain that is addressed. 191 00:17:55,460 --> 00:18:03,620 And because much has been closed sourced, a lot of people couldn't develop these skills. 192 00:18:03,620 --> 00:18:08,820 And one of the reasons you want these open source EDA tools is that it's a lower barrier 193 00:18:09,460 --> 00:18:14,740 for people to get these tools into their skills. 194 00:18:16,180 --> 00:18:17,300 Yes, exactly. 195 00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:20,660 It's about people that can be trained on tools. 196 00:18:21,460 --> 00:18:29,780 And it's also tool builders that will have a lower entry barrier to start building their 197 00:18:29,780 --> 00:18:34,980 own contribution, their part of the tools on top of something that is open source. 198 00:18:35,060 --> 00:18:40,100 And in EDA specifically, it's really not the case until recently. 199 00:18:40,100 --> 00:18:49,860 You have to build a full stack from ground to be able to start having a tool that is 200 00:18:49,860 --> 00:18:51,780 useful for users. 201 00:18:53,380 --> 00:18:59,540 So how can open source EDA tools contribute to Europe's push for more independence in 202 00:19:00,420 --> 00:19:01,140 chip production? 203 00:19:01,780 --> 00:19:07,140 And is there enough attention of policymakers for the potential of open source EDA tools? 204 00:19:08,500 --> 00:19:19,700 Yes, so it's true that reaching 20% of domestic chip production by 2030 is an extremely ambitious 205 00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:25,700 goal. And many now believe it may not be achievable. 206 00:19:26,580 --> 00:19:32,340 There's some articles in newspapers that say it's going to be very difficult. 207 00:19:33,140 --> 00:19:35,620 So it doesn't mean we should give up on it. 208 00:19:36,660 --> 00:19:44,500 And of course, recent global events have made it even more clear that some technological 209 00:19:44,500 --> 00:19:46,740 dependence matters. 210 00:19:48,020 --> 00:19:55,060 So one strategic way to keep m strategic way oving towards that goal, we think it's by embracing open 211 00:19:55,060 --> 00:20:00,580 source EDA tools, because these tools can play a key role in building a stronger and 212 00:20:00,580 --> 00:20:08,580 more connected ecosystem, especially by bridging chip design with other fast moving fields 213 00:20:08,580 --> 00:20:10,740 like machine learning and AI. 214 00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:18,500 And they also make it easier for newcomers to get started by providing solid, accessible 215 00:20:18,500 --> 00:20:25,620 foundations that don't require massive initial investment or deep legacy knowledge. 216 00:20:26,900 --> 00:20:34,420 So in a way, open source can act like a sort of time machine. It can accelerate the creation of 217 00:20:34,420 --> 00:20:42,020 a local semiconductor ecosystem by breaking down the traditional barriers and opening up innovation. 218 00:20:42,980 --> 00:20:50,580 So trying to grow a new EDA ecosystem in Europe just by using the old closed and behind the gates 219 00:20:50,580 --> 00:20:58,020 model just doesn't seem realistic anymore. And if we want to build something resilient, open 220 00:20:58,020 --> 00:21:00,740 source needs to be a core part of the strategy. 221 00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:11,620 And so in this matter, the policy makers have clearly identified 222 00:21:12,580 --> 00:21:23,460 this item. And there is in the CHIPS Act, a dedicated call that there's consortiums 223 00:21:24,420 --> 00:21:32,340 implying all the open source European community that have created consortiums to apply for this 224 00:21:32,340 --> 00:21:40,980 call that is directly identifying open source EDA as a key component of this overall strategy. 225 00:21:41,540 --> 00:21:45,060 That's really positive to hear that there's attention for that. 226 00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:46,200 Yes. 227 00:21:46,980 --> 00:21:53,860 So if the open source EDA to ecosystem is to help Europe become more technologically independent, 228 00:21:54,420 --> 00:21:56,020 what kind of support does it need? 229 00:21:58,580 --> 00:22:06,180 Yes. So if we really want open source EDA tools to contribute to Europe's technological sovereignty, 230 00:22:07,140 --> 00:22:13,380 we need a long-term commitment from the EU and its member states. 231 00:22:14,660 --> 00:22:21,140 And this is because developing EDA tools and developing a full flow isn't something that 232 00:22:22,100 --> 00:22:28,900 can be rushed. The open source community needs time and stable financial support 233 00:22:29,460 --> 00:22:33,300 to build up the tools and infrastructure properly. 234 00:22:33,300 --> 00:22:40,820 But also beyond funding, we think that the most critical support needs also to come within the 235 00:22:40,820 --> 00:22:48,020 European semiconductor industry itself. We need the local companies, startups, 236 00:22:48,020 --> 00:22:55,380 and SMEs, but also the larger players to actively invest in using these emerging tools. 237 00:22:56,340 --> 00:23:00,260 That means they need to dedicate both time and money 238 00:23:00,340 --> 00:23:07,300 but also something equally valuable for developing such complex tools, which means direct feedback. 239 00:23:08,100 --> 00:23:12,100 Because no matter how much effort goes into developing open source tools, 240 00:23:12,980 --> 00:23:20,180 they won't reach industrial standards unless you have real users that are testing them, 241 00:23:20,980 --> 00:23:26,900 pushing their limits, and helping improve them during the development process. 242 00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:35,220 So it's really about creating a healthy, sustainable ecosystem that will be connected. 243 00:23:35,220 --> 00:23:41,940 So developers, researchers, and industrial users are working side by side. 244 00:23:43,380 --> 00:23:47,540 Of course, this won't happen overnight, but if we invest now, 245 00:23:47,620 --> 00:23:51,700 we think we can build a kind of serious and production ready tools 246 00:23:52,340 --> 00:23:57,140 that Europe needs for long-term independence in chip design. 247 00:23:58,100 --> 00:24:05,460 Sounds good. Can you give us some insights into the open source EDA ecosystem? 248 00:24:06,340 --> 00:24:09,140 Is it large? Is it active? Is it well organized? 249 00:24:09,140 --> 00:24:15,860 The open source EDA ecosystem is still relatively small compared to other open source domains, 250 00:24:17,140 --> 00:24:24,900 but it's nowadays very active. It's gaining structure and there is a momentum. 251 00:24:25,940 --> 00:24:31,380 There is really a sense of purpose. 252 00:24:31,540 --> 00:24:35,140 in this community happening right now. 253 00:24:36,180 --> 00:24:42,020 You see regular communication through conferences, 254 00:24:43,060 --> 00:24:51,220 meetings, and a lot of community calls. 255 00:24:52,020 --> 00:24:59,780 Of course, initiatives like the EU Chips Act is helping to push for more coordination and define 256 00:25:00,180 --> 00:25:02,100 long-term visions. 257 00:25:03,940 --> 00:25:10,740 So what is exciting in this ecosystem is that it now spans a wide range of tools, 258 00:25:10,740 --> 00:25:23,220 so from validation, synthesis, simulation, and you have now also analog and mixed signal design. 259 00:25:24,020 --> 00:25:29,620 It's really not just isolated tools anymore. There's really a growing effort to build 260 00:25:29,620 --> 00:25:33,060 full design flows and connect the pieces together. 261 00:25:34,420 --> 00:25:40,260 As I said before, we are seeing the formation of consortiums and working groups that are 262 00:25:40,260 --> 00:25:48,260 focused on sharing knowledge, avoiding duplication, and building towards industrial grade capabilities 263 00:25:49,780 --> 00:25:50,420 together. 264 00:25:51,380 --> 00:25:57,380 That sounds so good. There's so much that sounds like there's a lot of energy and a lot of 265 00:25:58,500 --> 00:26:02,900 goodwill to get there together. That's really nice to hear. 266 00:26:03,940 --> 00:26:10,820 So one final question would then be what has been the role of NGI Zero funding for the open 267 00:26:10,820 --> 00:26:12,260 source EDA ecosystem? 268 00:26:12,900 --> 00:26:22,980 Yeah, so NGI Zero funding has played a massive role in shaping the open source EDA ecosystem. 269 00:26:24,420 --> 00:26:31,380 As we know it today, it has supported the growth of key existing projects. 270 00:26:32,580 --> 00:26:41,780 So we can name Yosys, for instance, or Coriolis. So Yosys is a very important 271 00:26:42,660 --> 00:26:51,700 both European projects and it also helped launch completely new projects. So like our own project, 272 00:26:51,700 --> 00:26:56,820 Naja. And this kind of support has been really essential. 273 00:26:58,660 --> 00:27:06,500 The need of open source EDA ecosystem is now widely recognized both in academic circles and 274 00:27:06,580 --> 00:27:13,380 in the broader tech economy. But we wouldn't be where we are today without that early and 275 00:27:13,380 --> 00:27:19,700 sustained investment from NGI Zero. And in the case of Naja specifically, 276 00:27:21,300 --> 00:27:25,300 I can say it very clearly, it simply wouldn't exist without that funding. 277 00:27:26,020 --> 00:27:35,300 It gave us the time, the stability, and the trust to turn our ideas into working tools and APIs. 278 00:27:36,580 --> 00:27:40,340 And to do so in a way that contributes to the wider community. 279 00:27:42,020 --> 00:27:47,620 So yeah, we can say it thanks a lot to NGI Zero help here. 280 00:27:48,820 --> 00:27:55,380 Yeah, good to hear. But maybe one follow up question. You mentioned academia. 281 00:27:56,260 --> 00:28:06,340 Do you see adoption already within academia? Are they using it in lectures? 282 00:28:07,940 --> 00:28:20,740 So yes, open source EDA, I think there is an adoption movement that is already quite happening 283 00:28:20,980 --> 00:28:29,460 in academia. And that is already entering the SME space. And so yeah, we see a direction that 284 00:28:31,780 --> 00:28:38,020 if we follow up this direction, it could really be adopted by the wider industry. 285 00:28:38,020 --> 00:28:46,820 So there are tools that are, let's say, really reaching the standard level today. So there is 286 00:28:47,540 --> 00:28:55,540 the tool that is called Yosys, which is to summarize going from the human description, 287 00:28:56,260 --> 00:29:02,260 it's called a synthesizer. So it's going to the human description to an interconnection of 288 00:29:02,260 --> 00:29:09,540 standard gates. Then you have the place and route tools. So you have the most famous one, 289 00:29:09,540 --> 00:29:15,940 which is OpenRoad. It's coming from the US. It's also widely used. And you have the equivalent 290 00:29:15,940 --> 00:29:25,140 that is also used, which is Coriolis, which is a project based in France. You also have a project, 291 00:29:25,140 --> 00:29:34,660 which is a physical design editor, which is called K-Layout. And it's also, yes, not only 292 00:29:34,660 --> 00:29:42,500 used in academia, it's also used by industrial grade users. And one also very important point 293 00:29:42,580 --> 00:29:52,100 here is that you have the full flow connection. If you see, for instance, the IHP from Germany, 294 00:29:52,820 --> 00:30:03,220 IHP is a foundry that provides open source PDK, which is an open source technology. 295 00:30:03,780 --> 00:30:09,780 And this means that with low investment, with all the tools I cited before, and also this open 296 00:30:09,780 --> 00:30:17,140 source foundry, you can go from human description to the real layout by using now this full flow, 297 00:30:17,140 --> 00:30:24,900 which covers the entire process. Great. Thank you. Yeah. And I also wanted to come back to what you 298 00:30:25,860 --> 00:30:31,460 said about that the funding of NGi Zero helped the OpenEDA ecosystem, because this is exactly 299 00:30:31,460 --> 00:30:38,420 the idea of the next generation internet, that you help fund stuff from the bottom up so that 300 00:30:39,460 --> 00:30:46,820 things can start just by the enthusiasm and wish of the people that have the great ideas. 301 00:30:47,220 --> 00:30:52,260 And that you water the ground a bit, but then it will flower really quickly and good, 302 00:30:53,860 --> 00:31:01,620 because you just provide the opportunity to the people with the ideas. So I'm really happy to hear 303 00:31:02,260 --> 00:31:06,260 that it really worked like that for the open 304 00:31:06,260 --> 00:31:11,300 source EDA ecosystem. 305 00:31:16,820 --> 00:31:25,620 So on that note, Christophe, thank you so much for this super interesting story about 306 00:31:26,580 --> 00:31:32,100 definitely not only Naja, but the entire EDA ecosystem and telling us about how the 307 00:31:32,100 --> 00:31:37,060 semiconductor industry works. I have really learned a lot today. So thank you very much. 308 00:31:38,020 --> 00:31:43,940 Yeah. Thanks a lot for having me in this podcast. It was a super interesting questions and 309 00:31:43,940 --> 00:31:52,020 I hope my answers were clear enough. It's a technical field, so it's not always easy to 310 00:31:54,260 --> 00:32:01,860 explain to a broader assembly like this, but yeah, it's super cool. 311 00:32:02,980 --> 00:32:11,300 No, it was very clear what you have to say. So thank you. Thank you very much.