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Welcome to the NGI Zero podcast, where we talk to the people who are building the next generation

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internet.

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Hi, I'm Ronny Lam.

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And I'm Tessel Renzenbrink.

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We're both from NLnet, a foundation which supports people who are working on a free

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and open internet.

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Our guests today are Kirill Zholnay and Inex Code.

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Kirill is the founder of LoRaType, a text messenger device using LoRa radio to communicate

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so you can chat independent of the internet.

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He's also the founder of SelfPrivacy, the project funded by NGI Zero we will be speaking

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about today.

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Inex Code is the lead full-stack engineer at SelfPrivacy.

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SelfPrivacy is a free application that helps you set up and manage your self-hosted services.

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The goal is to create an accessible tool that gives everyone the opportunity to create

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their own self-hosted infrastructure.

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Hi Kirill and Inex, welcome.

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Hello everybody, how are you?

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If we talk about the internet, what are the key issues that you see today with the internet?

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Oh, I am mature enough to remember the internet in the 2000s.

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Back then it was academic and decentralized, not commercial and centralized.

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It was about sharing information and not controlling users.

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Big tech didn't track your every move.

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Today the biggest problem is lack of privacy and it's getting worse.

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On the bright side, the European Union has improved things with GDPR, but it's unclear

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how well big tech is following the rules.

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As a system engineer, I think even if you ask your data to be deleted, it will remain

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in backups and cold storage.

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There are also negative trends such as chat control.

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And how does SelfPrivacy contribute to addressing those issues?

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When ordinary users realize they are being tracked, they seek ethical services.

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Not so bad, they switch to another big tech company, maybe more ethical, but still centralized

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like Matrix, Signal, Proton, Tuta.

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In the best case, they discover open source self-hosting, but it's too hard to set up

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and maintain these services securely.

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Even for experienced IT professionals, we make self-hosting painless.

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Self-privacy's main goal is to enable ordinary users to own their private services without

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relying on big tech.

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And how do you offer this service?

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What does it look like?

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In IT terms, our project is like Ansible and Terraform combined into an easy-to-use app.

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Users simply sign up to the same service providers that professional system admins use.

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It's virtual server providers, DNS servers, and backup storage.

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SelfPrivacy is not a service provider.

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We don't have any information about or access to the user's server.

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We know nothing about them.

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Our application is basically a set of scripts that set up, configure, and update user's

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server.

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Okay, and so I was looking at it, and I really like the idea of having a lot of support from

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you to set up the self-hosting.

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And you tell me, as a system engineer, that you will not be able to see my data or my

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credentials, but how do I, as a non-technical person, know that it's true?

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You say you work with zero trust, but how can I verify that you don't know my stuff?

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Inex, do you want to say something?

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It's an interesting question.

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First of all, we don't have any access to your server.

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Our application doesn't send any information to us.

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While the server downloads from our server the configuration for the server, the module

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is to set up all the services.

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These are all the same for everyone.

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If you have the skills to check the NixOS code, you can read it.

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Yeah, so even if I personally can't check it, I can ask somebody who understands, who can

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read the code, to check it for me?

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Yes, like everywhere in the open source.

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You can remove our application and use your server without us.

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You can update your server manually if you want.

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You don't need SelfPrivacy for it.

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Yeah, thanks.

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That answers my question.

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You just mentioned NixOS.

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Can you tell me a bit more about the NixOS ecosystem?

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NixOS is a declarative operating system based on the package manager Nix, which allows us

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to declare all the system configuration and service configuration in one place.

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As it is powered by a Nix programming language, we were able to adapt the single configuration

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to address the needs of different users.

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We have a single Nix config, which loads the data of the user, like which services users

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want to launch, which configuration values does the user want, and using Nix language,

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we can modify the system without modifying the Nix files themselves on the user's machine.

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There are a lot of projects that are like ours.  They try different approaches.

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There are projects like YunoHost.  They use Debian installation scripts and stuff like

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this, like in the usual style of how things on Linux are done.

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There are projects that use Docker, Kubernetes, and other container systems.

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And when the project started, we saw that and we tried to do this using NixOS. Because

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initially, SelfPrivacy was a hackathon project, so we tried to do this with Kubernetes, and

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it ended up badly.

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So, as I know, we are the only project that tries to achieve this goal using Nix, and

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it is not easy.  As for now, we see that if we try to use different approaches

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that are used by other projects, in many ways, it will be easier to implement, but advantages

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of using NixOS came out to be quite dramatic for us.  And we are still sticking to this.

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We are trying to do stuff that wasn't done yet in this ecosystem.

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I think we are doing quite good at this.

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Shortly, we hate Docker and Kubernetes.

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We hear that a lot.

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How do you handle updates?

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As a user, do I need to log in to the server itself?  Or will that be done from the app front-end?

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There are two options.

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If you have automatic updates enabled, your server will update itself every day.

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If you disabled automatic updates, you will have to open the app and click a big shiny

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button, update server.  And that's it.

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You will see the progress with the recent updates that we will release this

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week.

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You will see in real time the process of NixOS rebuilds.

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And that also handles major revisions of NixOS?

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Could you please repeat?

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And that also handles major revisions of NixOS like 23.11 to 24.05?

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Well, previously, major releases of NixOS were such a pain for us because we had to

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switch channels.  And it's not something you can quite automatically do with a single

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predetermined command.

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And in the previous year, we moved to using Flakes.  And this allowed us to actually pin

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not just channel, but commit in the Nix packages.

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And now we may actually push updates of the new major releases.

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The problem was that when a new major NixOS release comes out, there are incompatible changes

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in the configuration that must be addressed.

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And before, when the channel and configuration updates were separate, they were out of sync,

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and it caused problems.

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Now, as our configuration itself pins a NixOS version, we can update them at the same time.

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And nowadays, when you click update, it will just update to a new version.

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It's clearly for end user.

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We hide this from the user, well, because user doesn't really need to know about this,

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like these technical details.

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We just made it so you click a button and it updates.

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Yeah, nice.

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And also, the setup is also very nice, that you handle it from an app on your phone, and

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the rest is being done automatically.

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Can you tell us something about working on this project?

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What is hard about working on it?

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First of all, our technology stack is complex.

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NixOS, Flutter, Dart, Python, GraphQL. Inex tell me more.

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Well, that's a lot of technologies.  And NixOS is quite niche.

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It's hard to find specialists in this field. And our needs with NixOS are quite advanced.

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So, the hardest part here was to find people who are capable enough to actually implement

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our needs in the Nix language.

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How to implement different features such as single sign-on and others declaratively

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in Nix?

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How do we integrate everything?

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One of the most difficult tasks is also integrating everything.

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We have three layers.

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It's the Nix layer, where we have our configuration.

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We have API layer, which connects the system itself with the application,

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which modifies the Nix inputs.

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And the application itself is also quite complex.

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Second, the mission is challenging.

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We are creating automated cloud hosting for non-technical users.

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And third, the other one is political.

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I am Russian by birth, was in Ukraine before the war.

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And now I am in Germany.

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Jetzt lerne ich Deutsch.

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Our team of six people is based in Georgia.

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It's difficult.

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Talking about that, can you tell us something as to why you started making SelfPrivacy?

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I was amazed by the high level of privacy when I first saw DeltaChat.

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DeltaChat is my crush.

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Sorry, one moment.

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Can you explain what is DeltaChat for people who don't know?

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Improvise.

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He has better English.

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In a nutshell, DeltaChat is an email client, which behaves like a messenger, which also

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encrypts all the messages end-to-end.

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And it also allows group chats, and all the messages are encrypted.

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And it has quite a nice UX, UI.

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But the only way to achieve full privacy for DeltaChat is for both parties to use their own

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email servers.

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That was four years ago.

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There is still no easy way for non-technical users to set up their own mail server.

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SelfPrivacy does this in a few clicks and gives you unlimited email addresses for the

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cost of VPS.

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It's around 5 euros per month.

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And why do you think it is important to give non-technical users this possibility?

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They have no way to do it privately.

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I think only us.

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If you want an email server, what should you do?

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Well, you might contact other people who can set up the server, but do you trust them?

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Is it private?

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There are email server providers which will do it for you for money, but all your data

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is handled by them.

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Do you trust them?

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You likely do not trust.

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That's a very good reason.

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So earlier we talked about what the hard parts are of working on this project, but can you

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also tell me something that you really like about it?

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Oh, we enjoy reading feedback, like "it just works", "it's magic".

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It's very motivating.

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Many people know the difficulty of setting up an email server and getting the DNS setting

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correct.

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We just make it work.

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That's really nice.

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Yeah, I like the zero trust model that you use,

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and also, I mean, you are creating a communication channel for people that do not trust other

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servers, other companies, and especially not the Signal and the Telegrams of this world.

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One thing that I was thinking is, do you also use an encrypted file system on the server?

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Because it might be possible.

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One of the options that you offer through Hetzner, for example, is that those companies

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look into the server and read the files that are in there.

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Or am I now describing a feature request?

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Currently, users can choose Hetzner or DigitalOcean as their VPS provider.

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However, we plan to add Proxmox as a bare-metal server to increase independence and security.

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And then you can edit the encryption for the file system.

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I might also add that this is a feature request that we received, and we thought about it a lot.

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So the problem here is, for example, if we encrypt a virtual machine on Hetzner, they

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might just dump the operating memory and extract the keys.

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So this encryption only protects the data at rest.

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So it actually won't protect anything, and you still have to trust the provider.

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So that's why we are working on allowing you to set up SelfPrivacy on any provider

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or at your home.  And only after that, we will add new providers to our application.

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For full privacy, you should use a dedicated server.

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Yeah, true.

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You're also working together with or making use of deSEC.io, which is also another NLNet-funded project.

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Why did you choose them, and how does that work out for you?

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I say, but maybe Inex repeats more correctly.

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Firstly, we are using Cloudflare because they have a DNS API.

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Nobody has it, but NGI told me about deSEC, and we are happy to use it.

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Inex, could you repeat correctly?

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Well, quite a lot of DNS providers have DNS API.

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They are not ethical.

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We are not sure they don't collect information.

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It is not ethical either, but we used it because it is only a DNS, so no user data actually

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passed through it.

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And it is really used because of the ease of its API.

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At first, when it was SelfPrivacy was a prototype, so it was the first one that was supported,

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and then we added deSEC because we wanted a more private alternative,

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and we knew that it was also NLNet-funded.

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It was also the reason we chose it.

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And it was lucky for us that deSEC also has an API, and it works well with our application.

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And in the future, we are planning to add many more DNS providers, but it will take some time.

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If you have an ethical VPS provider, we will be happy.

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Is running or having DNS inside the SelfPrivacy server, is that something that is or might be on the roadmap?

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We had talks about it, and it might be possible, but it's harder to implement.

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And here is a chicken and egg problem.

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How do we stop access to the server when it is not yet created?

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We still need DNS records to access it

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because we use TLS, encrypted connections, and we need a domain for that.

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What you might do, then, is use the initial hostname that is being set by the VPS provider.

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Well, not every provider actually provides it.

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And the server also needs to actually learn this address somehow from itself and acquire TLS certificates for it.

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There are technical difficulties with this.

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00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:23,760
Maybe it is possible to implement, but it is not in our priorities currently.

236
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:30,760
Our current priority is to add more DNS providers and implement other features right now.

237
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:39,760
It is not private.  Upstream traffic can read.

238
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,760
They can read the DNS requests?

239
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,760
Requests, yeah.

240
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:50,760
What is your target audience?

241
00:22:50,760 --> 00:23:00,760
What people do you have in mind that should be using SelfPrivacy?

242
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:15,760
My dream is everybody use family servers for a loved one.

243
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:22,760
I am not a businessman.  I am a bad marketing guy.  I am just technical.

244
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:32,760
I see the problem and I know how to fix it with technical possibilities.

245
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:40,760
Well, you are not entirely a bad marketing guy because I looked at your website and it is very clear.

246
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:48,760
It is kind of funny, I think.  And it has these really nice cartoons on it.  Who made those?

247
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:55,760
It is our designer, Nevfy.  She is awesome.

248
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,760
It is so young and so cool.

249
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:05,760
It is presented really nice and as I said, it also really explains what SelfPrivacy does.

250
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:16,760
We are not sure.  Even IT guys don't understand what we are doing and why.  I don't know why.

251
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,760
It is because we are here.

252
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:35,760
Talking about business, what steps are you taking to ensure the longer-term sustainability of your projects?

253
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:45,760
I think about it every time.  This project is expensive for me.

254
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:56,760
I spent a lot of money and time for it but I didn't see an ethical way to monetization.

255
00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:06,760
We don't want to be engaged with a service provider because it is not zero trust.

256
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,760
We don't want to know our clients.

257
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:21,760
Maybe we can create a subscription in the marketplaces.

258
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:26,760
For example, Google Play Market

259
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:41,760
We tried to publish our software to the Apple Store but we were banned or something else.

260
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,760
Nobody responded to us.

261
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:59,760
But I want SelfPrivacy free always for Android users.

262
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,760
It's very critical.

263
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:10,760
Maybe we can add a commercial project in the SelfPrivacy-like platform.

264
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:17,760
For example, some data analytics.

265
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:19,760
I don't know.

266
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:32,760
Now we have a platform for any open-source software which allows NixOS.

267
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,760
And I like that.

268
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:42,760
If you have some business mentor I will be happy to speak with them.

269
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,760
Actually, we do.

270
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:51,760
The NGI Zero Coalition also offers practical support.

271
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:59,760
One of those supports is organizations like Apple or CCT

272
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,760
they offer mentor support for business models.

273
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:08,760
We could definitely help you with that.

274
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,760
Awesome.

275
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,760
And did you think about a donation model?

276
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,760
I don't believe that.

277
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:26,760
I know nobody who can earn with donation.

278
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,760
Maybe I have a lack of information.

279
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,760
But I know one.

280
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:42,760
It was...  If you know TOGAF

281
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,760
ArchiMate program

282
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:52,760
it's enterprise architecture software

283
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:57,760
and they can live on donation.

284
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:05,760
If I understand correctly you are basically funding this yourself, right?

285
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,760
Yeah.

286
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:12,760
You're paying people to develop it.

287
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,760
Yeah, I'm paying every week.

288
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:20,760
For Georgia it's fine.

289
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,760
It's impossible to do in Europe.

290
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,760
Europe is too expensive.

291
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:34,760
So you have other businesses where you earn the money and then you just put it into SelfPrivacy?

292
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,760
Yeah, you're right.

293
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,760
That's true dedication.

294
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,760
It is, yeah.

295
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:51,760
And I can also recommend doing some donation model

296
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,760
putting a donation button on your website

297
00:28:54,760 --> 00:29:05,760
because I'm very sure that there are donors out there that really believe in privacy

298
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,760
and would like to fund you.

299
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,760
Okay, thank you.

300
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:12,760
But I need help with it.

301
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:24,760
And I'm afraid that Google banned us because Google don't like donation on the site.

302
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:32,760
Google doesn't like it when you put links or use payments outside of the Google system.

303
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,760
So we might add it to the Android flavor donation button.

304
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:43,760
But speaking with Google Play, maybe it will be easier just to make an application paid in the Google Play and free in the F-droid

305
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:45,760
like, for example, OsmAnd does.

306
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,760
Yeah.

307
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:52,760
What are the next steps for SelfPrivacy?

308
00:29:52,760 --> 00:30:01,760
At the moment, SelfPrivacy offers services such as email, video meetings, password management and file server.

309
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:06,760
We are planning to add more communication and collaboration services

310
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:12,760
in particular Fediverse services such as PeerTube, Mastodon and Castopod.

311
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:23,760
What I really like about that list of projects is that you are choosing truly open-source projects.

312
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,760
Yeah, that's an amazing list.

313
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:35,760
I might say that we add services that we use ourselves

314
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:40,760
because we all are self-hosters with a large experience.

315
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,760
Me, for example, I self-host for years already

316
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:51,760
and I know all the pain of setting everything up on different systems

317
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:58,760
how it is actually not always easy to maintain everything.

318
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,760
It might be easy to set up something

319
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,760
but maintaining is a chore

320
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,760
and sometimes it is not a chore you actually want to do.

321
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,760
But you have to,

322
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,760
because, for example, there are security advisories,

323
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,760
there are updates that you have to apply,

324
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:17,760
you run out of space,

325
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:19,760
something is down, you have to up this and

326
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:26,760
sometimes it's just sad seeing all of this.

327
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:34,760
What can the listeners of our podcast do to help you to bring your project further?

328
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,760
Just install SelfPrivacy,

329
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,760
communicate with your loved ones via DeltaChat,

330
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,760
and escape big tech surveillance.

331
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,760
Send me a nice message on DeltaChat if you want.

332
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:57,760
When I want to speak with someone I want to send an email to the private server.

333
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,760
I have a private server.

334
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:06,760
I want everyone to have a private server.

335
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,760
That's really nice.

336
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:14,760
Can you tell us something about how NGI Zero helped your project?

337
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,760
NGI Zero has been a lot of help.

338
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:24,760
First of all, it's confirmation that we are doing the right thing.

339
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:35,760
When I look at other projects that NGI has supported, I feel that there is still hope for privacy on the Internet.

340
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:42,760
Can you give advice to people who are also considering to apply for NGI Zero?

341
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:43,760
Be brave.

342
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,760
Apply and don't be afraid to discuss your ideas.

343
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,760
Your idea could be a breakthrough.

344
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,760
It could change everything for the better.

345
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,760
Unfortunately, many IT professionals are too shy.

346
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:03,760
That's beautiful advice.

347
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:16,760
To go back to the start of this conversation we asked you both what are the issues today with the Internet.

348
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:26,760
You are giving a slice of the solution by creating and maintaining SelfPrivacy.

349
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:35,760
Do you see any other initiatives or trends that are contributing to improving the Internet a bit?

350
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,760
Maybe I'm too pessimistic.

351
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:44,760
So far, all I can see is that privacy is getting worse.

352
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:49,760
I've also heard that NGI might have funding problems

353
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,760
but I hope for the best

354
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:59,760
and we will continue to develop SelfPrivacy as much as I can.

355
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:09,760
If we are to solve the problems of privacy on the Internet what should be done?

356
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,760
What would be the fundamental steps that would improve it?

357
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:15,760
Inex?

358
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:30,760
My first thought is that it's educating people about privacy, about their data, about how the data is processed, what can be done with it.

359
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:39,760
Because Big Tech did a great job at educating people of their own paradigm.

360
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,760
It is hard for people to move to actually private services.

361
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:48,760
Federated protocols are very confusing for ordinary people.

362
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,760
We see a lot of problems people have,

363
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,760
things like choosing a server,

364
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:55,760
what server

365
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,760
do I have to choose? What is a server anyway?

366
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,760
And a lot of people...

367
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,760
I'm not sure about places like Germany.

368
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,760
I heard that in Germany people really like privacy.

369
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,760
But in other places it is a common thing to hear, like

370
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,760
"I don't have anything to hide!"

371
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:25,760
It's hard to actually change this mind usually, from the people.

372
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,760
NGI has supported a lot of great independent initiatives.

373
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:42,760
The best thing you can do is keep doing this for the long term and make the Internet healthier.

374
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,760
Yeah, I think that's a good combination of solutions.

375
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:56,760
On the one hand to educate the end users and on the other hand make the Internet actually better so that they have something to choose from.

376
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:58,760
It's really good advice.

377
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:00,760
Thank you.

378
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,760
Do you have any more questions, Ronny?

379
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:12,760
No, I think this was a wonderful conversation about a very interesting project.

380
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:14,760
Thank you.

381
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,760
I can end it.

382
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:24,760
There would be no room for conflict if the world could exchange ideas without being watched.

383
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:32,760
People can all agree on anything when there is no asymmetry of access to information.

384
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:34,760
That's beautiful.

385
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,760
That's a beautiful way to work towards.

386
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,760
Well, thank you Kirill and Inex very much for this great conversation

387
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:47,760
and even more for the SelfPrivacy project that you are working on

388
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,760
because it's really contributing to a better Internet for all.

389
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:52,760
Thank you very much.

390
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:53,760
Thank you.

391
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:54,760
Thank you.

392
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,760
Большое спасибо!