1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,580 (upbeat music) 2 00:00:02,580 --> 00:00:09,180 LAUREN: - Hello and welcome listeners. 3 00:00:09,180 --> 00:00:11,460 You are listening to Stories of Openness, 4 00:00:11,460 --> 00:00:15,380 a limited series podcast created by the Open Education Team 5 00:00:15,380 --> 00:00:17,260 at Deakin University Library. 6 00:00:17,260 --> 00:00:20,100 My name is Lauren Halcomb-Smith, and I'm your host. 7 00:00:20,100 --> 00:00:22,940 I'm a lecturer of Open Education at Deakin, 8 00:00:22,940 --> 00:00:25,420 and I'm on a mission to explore the impact 9 00:00:25,420 --> 00:00:28,660 that Open Educational Resources, or OER, 10 00:00:28,660 --> 00:00:32,020 are having on learning and teaching at Deakin. 11 00:00:32,020 --> 00:00:35,260 OER are free textbooks and other learning materials 12 00:00:35,260 --> 00:00:38,500 that anyone can use, adapt, and share, 13 00:00:38,500 --> 00:00:41,820 unlike traditional textbooks, which can be expensive, 14 00:00:41,820 --> 00:00:45,140 and limited by copyright and licensing restrictions. 15 00:00:45,140 --> 00:00:47,800 In this series, I'm talking with Deakin academics 16 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:52,700 about their experiences of creating and using Open Resources. 17 00:00:52,700 --> 00:00:55,100 This podcast is part of a research project 18 00:00:55,100 --> 00:00:58,220 that uses podcasting as a research methodology. 19 00:00:58,220 --> 00:01:01,140 So this conversation is both a podcast 20 00:01:01,140 --> 00:01:03,060 and open research data. 21 00:01:03,060 --> 00:01:04,140 I'm coming to you today 22 00:01:04,140 --> 00:01:06,860 from the beautiful, traditional, and unceded lands 23 00:01:06,860 --> 00:01:08,660 of the Bunurong people. 24 00:01:08,660 --> 00:01:11,860 I gratefully acknowledge them as the traditional custodians 25 00:01:11,860 --> 00:01:14,540 of these lands, seas, and skies, 26 00:01:14,540 --> 00:01:16,700 and recognize that this has been a place 27 00:01:16,700 --> 00:01:21,060 of learning, teaching, and rich conversation for millennia. 28 00:01:21,060 --> 00:01:22,540 And today we're in for a real treat 29 00:01:22,540 --> 00:01:26,740 because I'm joined by a whole team of OER creators. 30 00:01:26,740 --> 00:01:29,940 Simon James, Chris Rawson, and Erin Cheffers. 31 00:01:29,940 --> 00:01:31,740 Simon and Chris are the co-authors 32 00:01:31,740 --> 00:01:35,580 and Erin is the illustrator of the beautiful open textbook 33 00:01:35,580 --> 00:01:39,220 æMathematical Reasoning and InvestigationÆ. 34 00:01:39,220 --> 00:01:41,820 Simon is an associate professor in mathematics 35 00:01:41,820 --> 00:01:44,340 at Deakin's faculty of science, engineering, 36 00:01:44,340 --> 00:01:46,820 and built environment, and has been recognized 37 00:01:46,820 --> 00:01:49,740 with the Deakin University Award for excellence in teaching 38 00:01:49,740 --> 00:01:52,020 for his work with undergraduate math students. 39 00:01:52,020 --> 00:01:54,500 And Chris, at the time of writing a textbook, 40 00:01:54,500 --> 00:01:57,420 was a senior educational designer for Deakin 41 00:01:57,420 --> 00:02:00,740 with a background in learning design and librarianship. 42 00:02:00,740 --> 00:02:02,660 And Chris now works in the Deakin library 43 00:02:02,660 --> 00:02:04,740 as a scholarly services librarian. 44 00:02:04,740 --> 00:02:07,420 And - fun fact - is a colleague of mine. 45 00:02:07,420 --> 00:02:11,220 And finally, Erin is a graphics and user interface designer 46 00:02:11,220 --> 00:02:14,500 for Deakin's strategic educational initiatives unit. 47 00:02:14,500 --> 00:02:16,300 And at the time of writing the textbook, 48 00:02:16,300 --> 00:02:19,700 Erin was a student of design and visual communication 49 00:02:19,700 --> 00:02:20,940 and was part of the project 50 00:02:20,940 --> 00:02:25,180 by Deakin's wildly successful Students as Partners Program. 51 00:02:25,180 --> 00:02:27,180 Welcome, Simon, Chris, and Erin. 52 00:02:27,180 --> 00:02:29,460 Thank you so much for being here today. 53 00:02:29,460 --> 00:02:30,820 SIMON: - Thanks for having us. 54 00:02:30,820 --> 00:02:34,500 LAUREN: - We're gonna get started with a few questions for you, Simon. 55 00:02:34,500 --> 00:02:38,220 What's the story behind the creation of this OER? 56 00:02:38,220 --> 00:02:42,700 SIMON: - Chris and I just before the pandemic got to know one another 57 00:02:42,700 --> 00:02:46,420 who was helping me redevelop a unit at Deakin. 58 00:02:46,420 --> 00:02:50,500 And so I found that experience really rewarding 59 00:02:50,500 --> 00:02:52,460 being able to kind of bounce ideas off someone 60 00:02:52,460 --> 00:02:55,260 and have someone help me really structure 61 00:02:55,260 --> 00:02:57,260 and plan a unit properly. 62 00:02:57,260 --> 00:03:01,300 Unfortunately, because it was just before the pandemic, 63 00:03:01,300 --> 00:03:04,260 when the pandemic hit, we didn't really get an opportunity 64 00:03:04,260 --> 00:03:06,700 to finish all of the things we would have liked 65 00:03:06,700 --> 00:03:08,180 to have done with that unit. 66 00:03:08,180 --> 00:03:10,580 And so when the opportunity to apply 67 00:03:10,580 --> 00:03:14,220 for these open grants came around, he emailed me 68 00:03:14,220 --> 00:03:16,820 and said I think the work that we did on that unit 69 00:03:16,820 --> 00:03:20,820 would be a really good thing to turn into a textbook. 70 00:03:20,820 --> 00:03:24,220 And he said it won't be much work and he'll do all of it 71 00:03:24,220 --> 00:03:26,420 and all I have to do is agree. 72 00:03:26,420 --> 00:03:28,380 And I thought, yes, that sounds good. 73 00:03:28,380 --> 00:03:29,980 I liked working with Chris. 74 00:03:29,980 --> 00:03:33,860 So really the content was kind of all there, 75 00:03:33,860 --> 00:03:36,700 but we had to make a lot of, cut a lot of things short. 76 00:03:36,700 --> 00:03:39,540 And one thing in particular, my unit compared 77 00:03:39,540 --> 00:03:41,620 to some other maths units that we're getting redeveloped 78 00:03:41,620 --> 00:03:44,540 at the time was we didn't benefit 79 00:03:44,540 --> 00:03:49,380 from some really nice visual illustration things. 80 00:03:49,380 --> 00:03:51,860 So we saw this as an opportunity, yes, 81 00:03:51,860 --> 00:03:55,260 to make it much prettier and more presentable. 82 00:03:55,260 --> 00:03:57,940 LAUREN: Chris, you were just shaking your head and laughing. 83 00:03:57,940 --> 00:03:59,540 What was all that about? 84 00:03:59,540 --> 00:04:02,020 CHRIS: - First of all, Simon's unit was very good 85 00:04:02,020 --> 00:04:02,860 to begin with. 86 00:04:02,860 --> 00:04:05,460 It's one of the best units in one of the best shape 87 00:04:05,460 --> 00:04:09,420 I ever came across in the five or six years 88 00:04:09,420 --> 00:04:13,100 I was doing unit redesigns. 89 00:04:13,100 --> 00:04:17,540 Besides that, I do remember telling Simon it would be easy 90 00:04:17,540 --> 00:04:19,820 and I would do most of the work. 91 00:04:19,820 --> 00:04:22,180 And unfortunately it was not easy 92 00:04:22,180 --> 00:04:24,700 and Simon did a lot of the work, 93 00:04:24,700 --> 00:04:28,020 but I think we'll get around to that later. 94 00:04:28,020 --> 00:04:29,780 But yes, that's on me. 95 00:04:29,780 --> 00:04:33,020 LAUREN: - Simon mentioned that there was a grant program 96 00:04:33,020 --> 00:04:35,060 and for listeners who may not be familiar 97 00:04:35,060 --> 00:04:36,940 with the library's micro grant scheme, 98 00:04:36,940 --> 00:04:40,180 can you tell us a little bit about what the program was 99 00:04:40,180 --> 00:04:42,260 that you suggested to Simon? 100 00:04:42,260 --> 00:04:46,220 CHRIS: - Yeah, so this was a program that was offering grant funding 101 00:04:46,220 --> 00:04:49,100 to produce open educational resources 102 00:04:49,100 --> 00:04:51,140 or textbooks at the time. 103 00:04:51,140 --> 00:04:53,420 And there were fairly small grants, 104 00:04:53,420 --> 00:04:55,460 I can't remember the exact amount, 105 00:04:55,460 --> 00:04:59,740 but I think we got somewhere between $2,000 and $5,000, 106 00:04:59,740 --> 00:05:03,620 which we used for employing Erin through the Students 107 00:05:03,620 --> 00:05:05,460 as Partners Program. 108 00:05:05,460 --> 00:05:09,940 And I should say, financially the Cloud First project 109 00:05:09,940 --> 00:05:12,220 also tipped in a little bit of money. 110 00:05:12,220 --> 00:05:14,100 So to help with Erin as well, 111 00:05:14,100 --> 00:05:16,100 as well as giving you a little bit of time, 112 00:05:16,100 --> 00:05:17,740 at least to Erin as well. 113 00:05:17,740 --> 00:05:20,580 LAUREN: - So Simon, it was an undergraduate maths course 114 00:05:20,580 --> 00:05:23,300 that you had redesigned prior to that pandemic, 115 00:05:23,300 --> 00:05:25,180 but it didn't feel done. 116 00:05:25,180 --> 00:05:29,380 What was the need that the project was gonna fill for you? 117 00:05:29,380 --> 00:05:33,140 SIMON: - I mean, so other than finishing some things, 118 00:05:33,140 --> 00:05:36,460 I guess the other thing we saw was this was an opportunity 119 00:05:36,460 --> 00:05:40,700 to make our textbooks more widely available. 120 00:05:40,700 --> 00:05:42,980 When you have a unit at Deakin, 121 00:05:42,980 --> 00:05:46,580 it's closed to only be available to Deakin students, 122 00:05:46,580 --> 00:05:49,140 but the nice thing about open resources 123 00:05:49,140 --> 00:05:51,300 is I could then guilt free, 124 00:05:51,300 --> 00:05:53,620 be able to share all of these resources 125 00:05:53,620 --> 00:05:55,500 with anyone that wants them. 126 00:05:55,500 --> 00:05:57,460 Chris and I both kind of thought 127 00:05:57,460 --> 00:06:00,060 that some of the content of the unit is things 128 00:06:00,060 --> 00:06:01,780 that could be shared a bit wider 129 00:06:01,780 --> 00:06:05,540 because there's a lot of maths content out there 130 00:06:05,540 --> 00:06:08,420 and a lot of maths units are very standard, 131 00:06:08,420 --> 00:06:11,820 but this particular unit is a little bit different 132 00:06:11,820 --> 00:06:13,900 in its problem-solving approach 133 00:06:13,900 --> 00:06:16,420 and the way it presents its mathematics. 134 00:06:16,420 --> 00:06:20,940 So we did think they could potentially be some outside, 135 00:06:20,940 --> 00:06:23,100 yeah, outside scope for interest, 136 00:06:23,100 --> 00:06:27,660 but I guess the main need in terms of what we were delivering 137 00:06:27,660 --> 00:06:31,020 at Deakin, 'cause it had already been taught, 138 00:06:31,020 --> 00:06:34,940 but can you say there's a need for Erin's work? 139 00:06:34,940 --> 00:06:38,140 I think we can say that it definitely needed Erin's work 140 00:06:38,140 --> 00:06:41,900 to make it more appealing to the target audience. 141 00:06:41,900 --> 00:06:45,740 LAUREN: - I think a visual element communicates to readers 142 00:06:45,740 --> 00:06:48,020 or users of whatever piece of work it is 143 00:06:48,020 --> 00:06:50,500 that this piece of work is of high quality. 144 00:06:50,500 --> 00:06:52,460 So it might be the content is of high quality, 145 00:06:52,460 --> 00:06:54,460 but if you don't have great visuals, 146 00:06:54,460 --> 00:06:55,580 there's sort of a mismatch there. 147 00:06:55,580 --> 00:06:57,900 So I think visuals are a really important way 148 00:06:57,900 --> 00:07:00,260 that we communicate to learners 149 00:07:00,260 --> 00:07:03,460 that something is important, it's high quality 150 00:07:03,460 --> 00:07:04,820 and it's credible. 151 00:07:04,820 --> 00:07:08,780 CHRIS: I agree Lauren entirely, beyond that I also think, 152 00:07:08,780 --> 00:07:11,140 particularly Erin's great work 153 00:07:11,140 --> 00:07:13,940 where she really did her homework 154 00:07:13,940 --> 00:07:17,340 and put some great imagery together. 155 00:07:17,340 --> 00:07:21,900 It communicated a lot of the messages and tone and feel. 156 00:07:21,900 --> 00:07:25,980 It became part of the language of the book. 157 00:07:25,980 --> 00:07:29,020 That was such an important thing 158 00:07:29,020 --> 00:07:31,700 and so worthwhile doing. 159 00:07:31,700 --> 00:07:33,780 LAUREN: - Was there other motivations for you 160 00:07:33,780 --> 00:07:36,180 from the perspective of a learning designer 161 00:07:36,180 --> 00:07:39,860 that drew you or motivated you to want to create an OER? 162 00:07:39,860 --> 00:07:44,220 CHRIS: - Yeah, look, it was the content in a lot of ways, Lauren. 163 00:07:44,220 --> 00:07:46,700 I had a background doing a lot of work 164 00:07:46,700 --> 00:07:49,540 with Future Learn for Deakin previously, 165 00:07:49,540 --> 00:07:54,540 which is not open that it is publicly available content. 166 00:07:54,540 --> 00:07:58,980 When I was looking at this material the first time 167 00:07:58,980 --> 00:07:59,940 in the back of my mind, 168 00:07:59,940 --> 00:08:02,820 I was thinking this would be a good fit for Future Learn again, 169 00:08:02,820 --> 00:08:07,380 just because it fit nicely with a general purpose audience. 170 00:08:07,380 --> 00:08:11,340 I guess for me, it was also a bit of a personal thing 171 00:08:11,340 --> 00:08:14,540 in that Simon mentioned that this takes a different approach 172 00:08:14,540 --> 00:08:17,340 to mathematics and problem solving. 173 00:08:17,340 --> 00:08:20,020 One of the things I said in the book 174 00:08:20,020 --> 00:08:23,380 are in introducing it and really want to reiterate 175 00:08:23,380 --> 00:08:28,380 is that this was a genuinely transformational process 176 00:08:30,180 --> 00:08:33,500 of learning for me. One of the things that I like to do 177 00:08:33,500 --> 00:08:36,100 when I'm doing learning design is really immersed myself 178 00:08:36,100 --> 00:08:38,940 in the content so that I can get a good handle of it 179 00:08:38,940 --> 00:08:42,180 so that may working through the material itself. 180 00:08:42,180 --> 00:08:44,980 I am, it turns out there's research out there 181 00:08:44,980 --> 00:08:46,420 to say that I'm very typical. 182 00:08:46,420 --> 00:08:48,700 I thought that I was terrible at maths, 183 00:08:48,700 --> 00:08:51,780 the thought of doing maths, hard math, 184 00:08:51,780 --> 00:08:54,980 was sort of like anticipating someone 185 00:08:54,980 --> 00:08:56,820 was going to give me a punch or something, 186 00:08:56,820 --> 00:08:59,740 almost like anticipating physical pain. 187 00:08:59,740 --> 00:09:01,660 I genuinely believed I can't do it. 188 00:09:01,660 --> 00:09:04,260 And I kind of also thought maths is 189 00:09:04,260 --> 00:09:09,260 this procedural, structured, boring uncreative process. 190 00:09:09,260 --> 00:09:14,580 What Simon did, and this approach to mathematics 191 00:09:14,580 --> 00:09:18,380 that looks at it from a much more constructivist lens 192 00:09:18,380 --> 00:09:23,380 that asked you to solve really loose problems 193 00:09:23,380 --> 00:09:26,020 that have potential real-world applications 194 00:09:26,020 --> 00:09:28,380 and ask you to think about different ways 195 00:09:28,380 --> 00:09:30,500 that you can approach a problem. 196 00:09:30,500 --> 00:09:33,100 Think about working out how you can then 197 00:09:33,100 --> 00:09:36,380 take that solution, justify it, 198 00:09:36,380 --> 00:09:39,020 and generalise that to other kinds of maths problems 199 00:09:39,020 --> 00:09:42,380 that you've kind of changed my understanding of 200 00:09:42,380 --> 00:09:44,420 not necessarily what was possible with mathematics 201 00:09:44,420 --> 00:09:46,180 but my relationship with mathematics. 202 00:09:46,180 --> 00:09:50,700 All of a sudden I realise that doing maths well is fun 203 00:09:50,700 --> 00:09:53,260 that it is really creative. 204 00:09:53,260 --> 00:09:57,060 Like a good mathematician is a very creative person 205 00:09:57,060 --> 00:10:00,420 and solving any real-world problems. 206 00:10:00,420 --> 00:10:03,660 I think Simon says that something along the lines of 207 00:10:03,660 --> 00:10:06,300 æif it's really a problem you might be able to find 208 00:10:06,300 --> 00:10:08,540 a solution in the back of a bookÆ, 209 00:10:08,540 --> 00:10:10,660 that's just sort of a process. 210 00:10:10,660 --> 00:10:12,780 So yeah, I wanted to share that experience 211 00:10:12,780 --> 00:10:15,980 with other people from a general audience 212 00:10:15,980 --> 00:10:19,180 and make people realise the maths is creative 213 00:10:19,180 --> 00:10:22,540 and fun and enjoyable and all of that sort of thing. 214 00:10:23,540 --> 00:10:27,300 LAUREN: Erin, we've talked about you, but we haven't talked to you yet. 215 00:10:27,300 --> 00:10:30,500 Can you tell us what was your role on the project team? 216 00:10:30,500 --> 00:10:32,620 ERIN: I was the visual designer. 217 00:10:32,620 --> 00:10:34,980 I was actually still studying at the time. 218 00:10:34,980 --> 00:10:38,180 I was in my third year of my visual communication design 219 00:10:38,180 --> 00:10:40,700 course at Deakin, so I was just about to finish. 220 00:10:40,700 --> 00:10:42,980 And I was asked by Chris and Simon 221 00:10:42,980 --> 00:10:46,260 through my manager at the time as I was working 222 00:10:46,260 --> 00:10:49,580 as a Student as Partners in internship at Cloud First. 223 00:10:49,580 --> 00:10:52,100 So I had worked with Chris a little bit 224 00:10:52,100 --> 00:10:53,820 on a project before I'm pretty sure. 225 00:10:53,820 --> 00:10:56,140 But it was a really interesting opportunity. 226 00:10:56,140 --> 00:10:58,300 I will say when I heard it was maths, 227 00:10:58,300 --> 00:11:00,460 I was a bit of a bit scared. 228 00:11:00,460 --> 00:11:04,980 But when I spoke to Simon and Chris kind of learned 229 00:11:04,980 --> 00:11:07,300 a bit more about the project and what an OER was, 230 00:11:07,300 --> 00:11:09,540 I was really excited to get my hands in 231 00:11:09,540 --> 00:11:11,180 and work with them. 232 00:11:11,180 --> 00:11:12,780 LAUREN: Simon, back to you. 233 00:11:12,780 --> 00:11:15,140 Can you sort of walk us through the OER? 234 00:11:15,140 --> 00:11:16,700 Like, what's it about? 235 00:11:16,700 --> 00:11:17,660 How's it structured? 236 00:11:17,660 --> 00:11:18,900 How's it put together? 237 00:11:18,900 --> 00:11:23,380 SIMON: This unit is like the subject and the OER. 238 00:11:23,380 --> 00:11:26,340 It's aimed at primary school teachers 239 00:11:26,340 --> 00:11:29,020 who are going to specialize in mathematics. 240 00:11:29,020 --> 00:11:31,580 The aim of the unit really is to change 241 00:11:31,580 --> 00:11:34,340 the perception of mathematics as you go in, 242 00:11:34,340 --> 00:11:35,780 you learn how to do a problem, 243 00:11:35,780 --> 00:11:37,020 you see similar problems, 244 00:11:37,020 --> 00:11:39,420 and then you apply that same routine to other things. 245 00:11:39,420 --> 00:11:41,260 That is a part of mathematics. 246 00:11:41,260 --> 00:11:44,460 And it's important that people work on their skills. 247 00:11:44,460 --> 00:11:47,700 But I think it's a real disservice to mathematics 248 00:11:47,700 --> 00:11:50,340 that people go through all of their schooling, 249 00:11:50,340 --> 00:11:54,060 thinking that's all that mathematics is. 250 00:11:54,060 --> 00:11:57,940 And so as Chris said, saying all the beautiful things 251 00:11:57,940 --> 00:12:00,300 that we love to hear, you know, mathematics 252 00:12:00,300 --> 00:12:01,900 is a very creative pursuit. 253 00:12:01,900 --> 00:12:04,020 Real world problems are messy. 254 00:12:04,020 --> 00:12:06,940 And probably actually the lens through which I worked 255 00:12:06,940 --> 00:12:08,780 on this material and framed it was, 256 00:12:08,780 --> 00:12:12,180 yeah, there was another few education mathematics people 257 00:12:12,180 --> 00:12:15,220 that put out a book probably quite a long time ago 258 00:12:15,220 --> 00:12:16,820 called Thinking Mathematically. 259 00:12:16,820 --> 00:12:20,260 And that was really just about problem solving. 260 00:12:20,260 --> 00:12:25,420 And so I kind of saw an opportunity to still teach topics 261 00:12:25,420 --> 00:12:29,980 and still teach content that fits into a university degree, 262 00:12:29,980 --> 00:12:32,220 but kind of think of it or, you know, 263 00:12:32,220 --> 00:12:34,580 approach it through this problem solving idea. 264 00:12:34,580 --> 00:12:38,980 So yeah, we touch on a few interesting and fun math things. 265 00:12:38,980 --> 00:12:42,180 Not easy, you know, a lot of the mathematics is hard. 266 00:12:42,180 --> 00:12:45,180 We've got things like base conversion in there 267 00:12:45,180 --> 00:12:47,180 and some graph theory. 268 00:12:47,180 --> 00:12:49,700 Yeah, always with that idea of, 269 00:12:49,700 --> 00:12:53,500 you want to build intuition and build a relationship 270 00:12:53,500 --> 00:12:56,100 with enjoying and exploring mathematics 271 00:12:56,100 --> 00:12:59,020 rather than just how do I get the answer, 272 00:12:59,020 --> 00:13:00,980 just teach me the way to get the answer. 273 00:13:00,980 --> 00:13:03,780 And then I will show you that I can do it. 274 00:13:03,780 --> 00:13:08,140 LAUREN - What other elements can a reader of Mathematical Reasoning 275 00:13:08,140 --> 00:13:13,140 and Investigation expect looking at this open textbook 276 00:13:13,140 --> 00:13:17,300 compared to a traditional mathematics textbook? 277 00:13:17,300 --> 00:13:20,980 CHRIS: - So for me, what really makes this book stand out 278 00:13:20,980 --> 00:13:23,140 is A) the problem solving approach 279 00:13:23,140 --> 00:13:25,340 And B) just those problems themselves, 280 00:13:25,340 --> 00:13:27,580 which, yeah, SimonÆs put together 281 00:13:27,580 --> 00:13:29,380 with so much thought and care, 282 00:13:29,380 --> 00:13:31,380 really make the book enjoyable. 283 00:13:31,380 --> 00:13:34,220 And it's not Simon. ErinÆs work 284 00:13:34,220 --> 00:13:37,580 making those problems look beautiful. 285 00:13:37,580 --> 00:13:39,580 They all have their own illustration. 286 00:13:39,580 --> 00:13:43,500 - Yeah, it really makes it, it brings it to the next level. 287 00:13:43,500 --> 00:13:45,620 SIMON: - It does, you know, compared to a normal, 288 00:13:45,620 --> 00:13:47,060 normal, normal textbook, you know, 289 00:13:47,060 --> 00:13:50,340 we do embed video explanations into things, 290 00:13:50,340 --> 00:13:53,420 which, yeah, they were already there before 291 00:13:53,420 --> 00:13:55,620 we went into the OER, 292 00:13:55,620 --> 00:13:58,300 but they had to be cleaned up and made 293 00:13:58,300 --> 00:14:01,540 a little more copyright friendly than they had been. 294 00:14:01,540 --> 00:14:04,580 They kind of already had set a little bit of the tone 295 00:14:04,580 --> 00:14:06,980 of, yeah, only within my abilities, 296 00:14:06,980 --> 00:14:11,060 but of the kind of approachable artwork style. 297 00:14:11,060 --> 00:14:13,580 And also it's got coding in it. 298 00:14:13,580 --> 00:14:17,220 So it uses the scratch platform, 299 00:14:17,220 --> 00:14:21,660 which, yeah, it's a fantastic coding platform developed by MIT. 300 00:14:21,660 --> 00:14:24,060 And so it uses coding as a way 301 00:14:24,060 --> 00:14:26,820 to kind of explore mathematical questions 302 00:14:26,820 --> 00:14:28,740 as one of the approaches that we have 303 00:14:28,740 --> 00:14:32,700 of kind of problem solving and understanding things too. 304 00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:34,660 LAUREN: - Sounds like it offers so much more 305 00:14:34,660 --> 00:14:38,100 than a traditional paper textbook 306 00:14:38,100 --> 00:14:41,500 that becomes a laptop stand for many students 307 00:14:41,500 --> 00:14:43,300 after they finish their degree. 308 00:14:43,300 --> 00:14:47,060 Simon, you had funding as we've already discussed a little bit. 309 00:14:47,060 --> 00:14:50,220 You had some funding and you chose to use that funding 310 00:14:50,220 --> 00:14:53,420 for a graphic designer who was Erin. 311 00:14:53,420 --> 00:14:55,900 Can you tell us a little more about why graphic design 312 00:14:55,900 --> 00:14:58,340 was so important to this project? 313 00:14:58,340 --> 00:15:02,020 SIMON: - I am a big fan of things looking nice. 314 00:15:02,020 --> 00:15:07,220 And yeah, I agree with you, you know, having high quality artwork, 315 00:15:07,220 --> 00:15:10,540 yeah, it elevates things. Artwork in general 316 00:15:10,540 --> 00:15:13,020 and not having just straight text on a page. 317 00:15:13,020 --> 00:15:16,420 I don't know, I guess it must provide people reading it 318 00:15:16,420 --> 00:15:18,180 with a little bit of rest or, you know, 319 00:15:18,180 --> 00:15:19,420 breaking up the monotony. 320 00:15:19,420 --> 00:15:23,100 All of those, I'm sure there's research that supports 321 00:15:23,100 --> 00:15:26,860 that those kind of things help people digest material 322 00:15:26,860 --> 00:15:29,700 if it's got those kind of breaks and things 323 00:15:29,700 --> 00:15:33,140 that can let your mind wander a bit. 324 00:15:33,140 --> 00:15:37,380 When we do have the opportunity to get funding at university, 325 00:15:37,380 --> 00:15:39,660 you know, one of the best things I think you can do 326 00:15:39,660 --> 00:15:43,300 is support students and support someone who's career 327 00:15:43,300 --> 00:15:45,340 is kind of going forward. 328 00:15:45,340 --> 00:15:48,460 I think that's a better use of money than buying something 329 00:15:48,460 --> 00:15:51,340 or getting, I don't know, something material 330 00:15:51,340 --> 00:15:54,220 or say paying for the rights to use something 331 00:15:54,220 --> 00:15:57,980 or being able to give students like a real opportunity 332 00:15:57,980 --> 00:16:00,380 to develop their skills, I think is really important. 333 00:16:00,380 --> 00:16:04,660 And probably in terms of the work that we needed, you know, 334 00:16:04,660 --> 00:16:07,580 there were other things that we kind of tossed up with 335 00:16:07,580 --> 00:16:10,460 whether students could review some of the work 336 00:16:10,460 --> 00:16:15,620 or whether students could make some kind of contributions. 337 00:16:15,620 --> 00:16:18,900 But I guess the amount of funding that we had 338 00:16:18,900 --> 00:16:23,700 and how it would really contribute to the product at the end, 339 00:16:23,700 --> 00:16:26,140 graphic design from my perspective 340 00:16:26,140 --> 00:16:27,580 was the best way to use that money. 341 00:16:27,580 --> 00:16:32,260 I'm not sure if Chris had something to support or refute 342 00:16:32,260 --> 00:16:33,300 any of that. 343 00:16:33,300 --> 00:16:37,340 CHRIS: Oh, no, just to support that it was such a worthwhile investment. 344 00:16:37,340 --> 00:16:40,860 And as I said earlier that the illustration 345 00:16:40,860 --> 00:16:45,700 has become such an integral part of the text. 346 00:16:45,700 --> 00:16:49,140 And that's because Erin worked so hard to take 347 00:16:49,140 --> 00:16:52,940 Our sometimes quite vague instructions, 348 00:16:52,940 --> 00:16:55,420 looked at what we'd written and really thought hard 349 00:16:55,420 --> 00:16:59,220 about how to make something on the page that would flow 350 00:16:59,220 --> 00:17:03,740 as support the content and did such a good job of that yet 351 00:17:03,740 --> 00:17:06,540 that it's just become seamlessly integrated 352 00:17:06,540 --> 00:17:07,540 into the rest of the text. 353 00:17:07,540 --> 00:17:09,940 You did a fantastic job. 354 00:17:09,940 --> 00:17:12,980 LAUREN: And before we hear from Erin because we really 355 00:17:12,980 --> 00:17:15,340 want to hear more about these illustrations, 356 00:17:15,340 --> 00:17:17,740 Chris, if I'm not mistaken, there is research 357 00:17:17,740 --> 00:17:21,940 that shows that having visuals in learning environments 358 00:17:21,940 --> 00:17:23,860 does support learning, isn't there? 359 00:17:23,860 --> 00:17:26,220 CHRIS: Yes, it's the short answer. 360 00:17:26,220 --> 00:17:27,860 And you're putting me on the spot. 361 00:17:27,860 --> 00:17:30,140 So we'll probably cut this bit out. 362 00:17:30,140 --> 00:17:33,420 LAUREN: I guess what I was thinking when Simon was talking about visuals 363 00:17:33,420 --> 00:17:36,580 providing a brain break, I'm thinking like, yes, 364 00:17:36,580 --> 00:17:39,620 that's universal design for learning right there. 365 00:17:39,620 --> 00:17:40,140 CHRIS: Oh, I see. 366 00:17:40,140 --> 00:17:42,780 LAUREN: That's like multiple means of my presentation. 367 00:17:42,780 --> 00:17:45,660 And it reduces the cognitive load. 368 00:17:45,660 --> 00:17:48,660 CHRIS: I think it's more than just that reduction of cognitive load. 369 00:17:48,660 --> 00:17:51,620 And that's part of it. 370 00:17:51,620 --> 00:17:53,100 I think it's more integral than that. 371 00:17:53,100 --> 00:17:56,460 I think it plays a really central role in telling the story. 372 00:17:56,460 --> 00:17:59,420 It's a narrative device. 373 00:17:59,420 --> 00:18:03,580 This is why it's so important that I praise Erin 374 00:18:03,580 --> 00:18:05,820 for really integrating that work and doing that work 375 00:18:05,820 --> 00:18:07,860 to think about the visuals because it 376 00:18:07,860 --> 00:18:10,860 and be distracting have visuals there 377 00:18:10,860 --> 00:18:14,220 that don't fit very well with the story. 378 00:18:14,220 --> 00:18:18,380 Ensuring that you have a single unified text 379 00:18:18,380 --> 00:18:21,740 that's pointing together, that comes down to teamwork. 380 00:18:21,740 --> 00:18:24,820 But it also comes down to Erin's good work. 381 00:18:24,820 --> 00:18:27,220 And I think there's that sense of narrative. 382 00:18:27,220 --> 00:18:29,300 But there's also, as you said, 383 00:18:29,300 --> 00:18:35,700 multiple interpretations are easier when it comes to visuals. 384 00:18:35,700 --> 00:18:39,500 That ability to bring your own self to the text. 385 00:18:39,500 --> 00:18:42,780 It just makes it, it gives extra access points 386 00:18:42,780 --> 00:18:45,060 for people to engage with the work as well. 387 00:18:45,060 --> 00:18:47,860 Yeah, it's a lot more than just window dressing 388 00:18:47,860 --> 00:18:50,300 and a lot more than just it makes it credible. 389 00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:53,180 Although I agree, at least the base level it 390 00:18:53,180 --> 00:18:54,900 needs to do that. 391 00:18:54,900 --> 00:18:58,500 It becomes a really important part of the story 392 00:18:58,500 --> 00:19:00,060 of the textbook itself. 393 00:19:00,060 --> 00:19:04,060 LAUREN: Erin, can you tell us about the illustrations in the OER? 394 00:19:04,060 --> 00:19:05,980 ERIN: Yes, there's a lot to say. 395 00:19:05,980 --> 00:19:10,100 I think how we kind of started it was that the unit already 396 00:19:10,100 --> 00:19:13,780 had a visual made and it was with an astronaut. 397 00:19:13,780 --> 00:19:17,260 And we kind of took that and expanded upon it. 398 00:19:17,260 --> 00:19:21,060 So we decided on three, I think, different themes, 399 00:19:21,060 --> 00:19:24,420 which kind of went from the space to land, 400 00:19:24,420 --> 00:19:27,580 which is kind of like a zoo, I think, and then underwater. 401 00:19:27,580 --> 00:19:30,500 And we split those into chapters, different chapters. 402 00:19:30,500 --> 00:19:33,700 Well, obviously, we needed to relate that to the content. 403 00:19:33,700 --> 00:19:37,100 Each banner has its own relation to the content. 404 00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:39,100 So it will have something to do with the maths 405 00:19:39,100 --> 00:19:41,380 that the students are learning. 406 00:19:41,380 --> 00:19:44,900 And that was also a bit of a tricky thing to do, 407 00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:46,540 especially because it is an OER. 408 00:19:46,540 --> 00:19:48,580 So we had to have the right licensing 409 00:19:48,580 --> 00:19:52,980 to use what I was making, because I was outsourcing 410 00:19:52,980 --> 00:19:55,660 from, I think, it was Flat Icon at the time, 411 00:19:55,660 --> 00:19:58,260 as well as making my own graphics. 412 00:19:58,260 --> 00:20:00,260 So we were incorporating those together. 413 00:20:00,260 --> 00:20:02,780 But yet, altogether, I think we-- 414 00:20:02,780 --> 00:20:06,020 I think the different outputs from the illustrations 415 00:20:06,020 --> 00:20:08,500 were banners main thing. 416 00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:12,620 We had a few inline graphics, so diagrams and graphs 417 00:20:12,620 --> 00:20:13,780 and stuff like that. 418 00:20:13,780 --> 00:20:16,740 And then, I think, finally, it was our cover, which 419 00:20:16,740 --> 00:20:19,380 was very exciting to make, because I got to intertwine 420 00:20:19,380 --> 00:20:22,220 all the things together with the final cover. 421 00:20:22,220 --> 00:20:23,620 LAUREN: And for anyone listening, I really 422 00:20:23,620 --> 00:20:27,420 encourage you to look at the OER for no other reason 423 00:20:27,420 --> 00:20:28,820 than the graphics. 424 00:20:28,820 --> 00:20:32,820 The astronaut has so much character and so much personality. 425 00:20:32,820 --> 00:20:36,780 My favorite one is, I think, it's the astronaut doing a moonwalk 426 00:20:36,780 --> 00:20:39,140 or some kind of dance, maybe, on Mars. 427 00:20:39,140 --> 00:20:41,980 Did the astronaut get a name along the way? 428 00:20:41,980 --> 00:20:43,340 ERIN: I'm not sure. 429 00:20:43,340 --> 00:20:47,260 CHRIS: I guess not, because the astronaut is the problem solver. 430 00:20:47,260 --> 00:20:51,100 So we all assume they're all of the astronaut. 431 00:20:51,100 --> 00:20:53,900 LAUREN: We're all the astronauts. 432 00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:55,020 That's amazing. 433 00:20:55,020 --> 00:20:56,540 Let's shift gears a little bit, because I 434 00:20:56,540 --> 00:21:00,220 want to hear about how the OER landed when you actually 435 00:21:00,220 --> 00:21:02,180 published it or you started using it. 436 00:21:02,180 --> 00:21:03,740 Because if I understand correctly, 437 00:21:03,740 --> 00:21:07,940 it was created for a specific unit that isn't being taught 438 00:21:07,940 --> 00:21:08,780 anymore. 439 00:21:08,780 --> 00:21:10,940 But did you notice that it was having 440 00:21:10,940 --> 00:21:13,580 any impact on the students at the time? 441 00:21:13,580 --> 00:21:17,620 CHRIS: The student experience probably is still fairly similar, 442 00:21:17,620 --> 00:21:19,420 the students that are enrolled at Deakin. 443 00:21:19,420 --> 00:21:25,860 Because we used the OER to pretty up the unit site. 444 00:21:25,860 --> 00:21:29,460 But overall, what the students from one trimester 445 00:21:29,460 --> 00:21:34,900 to another experience would have been fairly similar. 446 00:21:34,900 --> 00:21:36,220 But yeah, so it was really more-- 447 00:21:36,220 --> 00:21:39,380 well, you know, and we do know that it was kind of being 448 00:21:39,380 --> 00:21:40,900 used externally. 449 00:21:40,900 --> 00:21:45,140 I don't know whether I can trust all of the stats on the site 450 00:21:45,140 --> 00:21:46,100 where it was housed. 451 00:21:46,100 --> 00:21:48,460 But it seemed to be getting, you know, 452 00:21:48,460 --> 00:21:51,220 some good interaction. 453 00:21:51,220 --> 00:21:55,460 We had had, yeah, some people from outside as well, who-- 454 00:21:55,460 --> 00:21:58,380 yeah, who'd contacted me kind of similar time 455 00:21:58,380 --> 00:22:01,580 to making some of the resources about using the resources 456 00:22:01,580 --> 00:22:02,540 in their things. 457 00:22:02,540 --> 00:22:06,220 And so it was kind of all part of that as well. 458 00:22:06,220 --> 00:22:08,020 LAUREN: Were you hearing anything from the students 459 00:22:08,020 --> 00:22:10,340 that were using it any feedback? 460 00:22:10,340 --> 00:22:14,540 CHRIS: Look, they might not talk to me about the pictures as much. 461 00:22:14,540 --> 00:22:18,540 But obviously, whenever-- yeah, I probably also 462 00:22:18,540 --> 00:22:20,620 was too-- I didn't give them an option to tell them 463 00:22:20,620 --> 00:22:22,740 because I would just say, look at this unit site. 464 00:22:22,740 --> 00:22:23,340 It's beautiful. 465 00:22:23,340 --> 00:22:23,980 Look at this. 466 00:22:23,980 --> 00:22:25,140 Look at these pictures. 467 00:22:25,140 --> 00:22:27,900 Aren't you excited to be studying this unit with me? 468 00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:30,740 And so all they could really do was agree. 469 00:22:30,740 --> 00:22:34,140 So unfortunately, I didn't properly 470 00:22:34,140 --> 00:22:36,180 get the extra feedback after that. 471 00:22:36,180 --> 00:22:39,220 But I mean, it's obvious that they would enjoy it. 472 00:22:39,220 --> 00:22:40,300 LAUREN: Well, yeah. 473 00:22:40,300 --> 00:22:41,660 Just look at it. 474 00:22:41,660 --> 00:22:44,380 Chris, do you have any stories to share about the impact 475 00:22:44,380 --> 00:22:48,020 the OER has had on learning at Deakin? 476 00:22:48,020 --> 00:22:51,740 LAUREN: Well, I hope that the approach that Simon took 477 00:22:51,740 --> 00:22:53,860 and the approach to Cloud First took 478 00:22:53,860 --> 00:22:56,500 has had resulted in the improvement 479 00:22:56,500 --> 00:23:01,100 of learning experiences for students in a number of ways. 480 00:23:01,100 --> 00:23:03,860 Without talking in generalities, the best 481 00:23:03,860 --> 00:23:05,980 particular unit, I think 482 00:23:05,980 --> 00:23:10,660 that what it really meant was students, particularly 483 00:23:10,660 --> 00:23:13,660 pre-service teachers, making a much clearer link 484 00:23:13,660 --> 00:23:17,260 between the content that they were working through 485 00:23:17,260 --> 00:23:21,020 and how that might sit in a classroom. 486 00:23:21,020 --> 00:23:24,660 I don't necessarily have the feedback 487 00:23:24,660 --> 00:23:27,020 to justify that comment. 488 00:23:27,020 --> 00:23:30,820 But that was certainly one of our signature intentions 489 00:23:30,820 --> 00:23:34,140 when we reviewed the content itself. 490 00:23:34,140 --> 00:23:38,020 I think that the visuals make a really huge difference. 491 00:23:38,020 --> 00:23:41,380 I think just to be clear for listeners, 492 00:23:41,380 --> 00:23:44,460 we're talking in some ways about slightly separate things. 493 00:23:44,460 --> 00:23:48,140 So the OER textbook that we made 494 00:23:48,140 --> 00:23:52,660 goes out to general audience, but the unit site, 495 00:23:52,660 --> 00:23:56,660 which we worked on initially, formed the basis 496 00:23:56,660 --> 00:24:00,060 of the textbook, Erin did some graphics. 497 00:24:00,060 --> 00:24:02,140 Simon and I revised some of the content 498 00:24:02,140 --> 00:24:05,660 and added a little bit more in, but it's essentially 499 00:24:05,660 --> 00:24:07,100 a very similar product. 500 00:24:07,100 --> 00:24:09,860 That being said, students working through the unit site 501 00:24:09,860 --> 00:24:13,980 aren't strictly speaking, working through the OER textbook 502 00:24:13,980 --> 00:24:15,460 if that makes sense. 503 00:24:15,460 --> 00:24:18,580 LAUREN: I almost feel like it's a distinction 504 00:24:18,580 --> 00:24:21,860 that doesn't need to be made because the nature of OER 505 00:24:21,860 --> 00:24:24,340 is that they are always in evolution. 506 00:24:24,340 --> 00:24:27,820 So whether it was technically an OER at the time 507 00:24:27,820 --> 00:24:31,060 that it was being taught, and is there 508 00:24:31,060 --> 00:24:33,340 a specific point at which something is, 509 00:24:33,340 --> 00:24:36,580 or it's now crossed over the threshold 510 00:24:36,580 --> 00:24:37,620 into being an OER. 511 00:24:37,620 --> 00:24:39,340 I don't know if that's necessarily 512 00:24:39,340 --> 00:24:41,180 a super helpful distinction to make. 513 00:24:41,180 --> 00:24:45,380 I think it's fair to say that all open education projects 514 00:24:45,380 --> 00:24:49,980 are at some point in the journey towards openness. 515 00:24:49,980 --> 00:24:51,660 Some of them are more open than others. 516 00:24:51,660 --> 00:24:55,660 So what I'm hearing is that it's hard to measure 517 00:24:55,660 --> 00:24:58,900 the impact that a specific resource has on learning 518 00:24:58,900 --> 00:25:02,340 unless you're doing very specific research about it, 519 00:25:02,340 --> 00:25:06,100 but that the impression is that it supported their learning 520 00:25:06,100 --> 00:25:08,820 in a positive way in the form that it was in 521 00:25:08,820 --> 00:25:11,380 before it was sort of officially published 522 00:25:11,380 --> 00:25:13,420 as an open education resource. 523 00:25:13,420 --> 00:25:15,940 CHRIS: Yeah, and I would certainly say 524 00:25:15,940 --> 00:25:19,980 that there's plenty of reason and good, 525 00:25:19,980 --> 00:25:23,220 justifiable robust evidence to suggest 526 00:25:23,220 --> 00:25:28,220 that in the form of the unit that students went through, 527 00:25:28,220 --> 00:25:35,660 it was a well-regarded and well-enjoyed unit by students, 528 00:25:35,660 --> 00:25:39,220 and I'm certain that students would have gotten 529 00:25:39,220 --> 00:25:40,700 something important out of it 530 00:25:40,700 --> 00:25:42,980 that they could bring into their classrooms. 531 00:25:42,980 --> 00:25:45,220 'Cause as we said, right, the start, 532 00:25:45,220 --> 00:25:48,340 the whole point of this OER textbook is 533 00:25:48,340 --> 00:25:51,860 that people redefine their relationship with mathematics 534 00:25:51,860 --> 00:25:55,220 to see it as a creative pursuit to solve problems 535 00:25:55,220 --> 00:25:59,260 rather than just a series of steps 536 00:25:59,260 --> 00:26:03,860 to get to the same answer that the back of the book has. 537 00:26:03,860 --> 00:26:06,900 LAUREN: Like many open education projects at Deakin, 538 00:26:06,900 --> 00:26:09,580 the students that engaged with this project 539 00:26:09,580 --> 00:26:11,460 were not just the students in the unit itself. 540 00:26:11,460 --> 00:26:13,700 You also had a student as partner. 541 00:26:13,700 --> 00:26:17,580 So Erin, I'm really curious to hear about your experience 542 00:26:17,580 --> 00:26:21,140 as a student at Deakin that this project had on you 543 00:26:21,140 --> 00:26:22,700 because you, as you've mentioned, 544 00:26:22,700 --> 00:26:24,620 you were a graphic design student at the time 545 00:26:24,620 --> 00:26:25,740 that it was created. 546 00:26:25,740 --> 00:26:29,380 What was it like for you to join this project team? 547 00:26:29,380 --> 00:26:30,220 ERIN: - Interesting. 548 00:26:30,220 --> 00:26:32,940 I'd say, I was quite nervous. 549 00:26:32,940 --> 00:26:36,940 I had basically no professional experience 550 00:26:36,940 --> 00:26:39,300 as a graphic designer except for my internship. 551 00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:41,820 And through that, I had my manager 552 00:26:41,820 --> 00:26:43,940 who I could obviously talk to a lot 553 00:26:43,940 --> 00:26:47,220 and this was me leading the graphics, 554 00:26:47,220 --> 00:26:50,700 which was a bit terrifying, I would say. 555 00:26:50,700 --> 00:26:53,820 - I remember being extremely quiet 556 00:26:53,820 --> 00:26:55,300 when we first started meeting 557 00:26:55,300 --> 00:26:57,740 and not contributing much to the conversation 558 00:26:57,740 --> 00:27:01,540 of the graphics, but I think this experiences helped me 559 00:27:01,540 --> 00:27:04,900 and during the process helped me gain a lot of confidence 560 00:27:04,900 --> 00:27:08,580 in the discussion of design and that, yeah. 561 00:27:08,580 --> 00:27:11,060 LAUREN: - So as a graphic design student, 562 00:27:11,060 --> 00:27:14,540 did this experience have any impact on you 563 00:27:14,540 --> 00:27:16,740 as a student outside of the project? 564 00:27:16,740 --> 00:27:17,860 ERIN: - Yeah, I would say so. 565 00:27:17,860 --> 00:27:21,340 I mean, we didn't have a lot of experiences 566 00:27:21,340 --> 00:27:25,500 with actual clients during our time in the degree. 567 00:27:25,500 --> 00:27:27,300 And so I think that's something 568 00:27:27,300 --> 00:27:30,340 that really was beneficial in this project 569 00:27:30,340 --> 00:27:33,860 'cause I could actually talk to both Chris and Simon 570 00:27:33,860 --> 00:27:37,340 about what they wanted and be able to gain feedback 571 00:27:37,340 --> 00:27:39,380 from them as real people. 572 00:27:39,380 --> 00:27:40,700 So that was really good. 573 00:27:40,700 --> 00:27:43,780 And then obviously teamwork was one of the things 574 00:27:43,780 --> 00:27:47,500 I feel would have very much benefited me 575 00:27:47,500 --> 00:27:50,660 at going back into working like serving as a student 576 00:27:50,660 --> 00:27:53,500 and working with my other graphic design students. 577 00:27:53,500 --> 00:27:54,660 And yeah. 578 00:27:54,660 --> 00:27:57,100 LAUREN: - And has the experience had any impact 579 00:27:57,100 --> 00:27:59,380 on you since you've graduated? 580 00:27:59,380 --> 00:28:00,300 ERIN: - Yeah, definitely. 581 00:28:00,300 --> 00:28:01,540 It's one of those things where I can, 582 00:28:01,540 --> 00:28:04,260 I can put it on my portfolio and show it off of it. 583 00:28:04,260 --> 00:28:06,860 And obviously talk about it at job interviews 584 00:28:06,860 --> 00:28:08,700 and put it on my CV. 585 00:28:08,700 --> 00:28:12,060 That's a really good thing to be able to talk about this 586 00:28:12,060 --> 00:28:14,820 and especially 'cause it was such a good experience 587 00:28:14,820 --> 00:28:15,860 to have as well. 588 00:28:15,860 --> 00:28:18,060 So I can always talk about highly about it. 589 00:28:18,060 --> 00:28:19,980 - I just want to point out for the listeners 590 00:28:19,980 --> 00:28:22,220 'cause we're not recording video for this 591 00:28:22,220 --> 00:28:25,860 but I just want to highlight how emphatically 592 00:28:25,860 --> 00:28:29,060 Chris and Simon are nodding in support 593 00:28:29,060 --> 00:28:30,860 and encouragement of you, Erin. 594 00:28:30,860 --> 00:28:35,380 I think you have two very strong cheerleaders in these two. 595 00:28:35,380 --> 00:28:39,340 CHRIS: - Absolutely, look, Erin's work is exceptional. 596 00:28:39,340 --> 00:28:44,340 When I asked Erin's manager who from her experience 597 00:28:44,580 --> 00:28:47,340 we should employ for this project. 598 00:28:47,340 --> 00:28:50,580 She did not hesitate to push Erin forward 599 00:28:50,580 --> 00:28:54,060 and we couldn't be happier with the work that she did for us. 600 00:28:54,060 --> 00:28:55,940 LAUREN: - All right, well, we're gonna shift gears again 601 00:28:55,940 --> 00:28:58,580 'cause I wanna hear about the impact that this had 602 00:28:58,580 --> 00:29:02,620 on you, Simon and Chris as teachers. 603 00:29:02,620 --> 00:29:05,180 So Simon, can you tell me any stories 604 00:29:05,180 --> 00:29:09,500 about how this OER project shaped your teaching practice? 605 00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:11,660 CHIRS: - Yes, being involved in this project 606 00:29:11,660 --> 00:29:14,740 was really eye-opening, I guess. 607 00:29:14,740 --> 00:29:19,580 I've always been very pro-free education 608 00:29:19,580 --> 00:29:24,220 and think that resources should always be made available 609 00:29:24,220 --> 00:29:25,900 as widely as possible. 610 00:29:25,900 --> 00:29:30,460 But of course, I never really understood any of the, 611 00:29:30,460 --> 00:29:32,980 any of how you actually do it and what's legal 612 00:29:32,980 --> 00:29:36,020 and what's not illegal and what the university allows 613 00:29:36,020 --> 00:29:37,820 and what it doesn't allow. 614 00:29:37,820 --> 00:29:41,340 So it definitely helped me get a much better understanding 615 00:29:41,340 --> 00:29:45,060 of that, which has influenced how I then go on to develop 616 00:29:45,060 --> 00:29:46,180 other units. 617 00:29:46,180 --> 00:29:47,740 Being part of this project also means 618 00:29:47,740 --> 00:29:49,540 that you get to see some of the other projects 619 00:29:49,540 --> 00:29:50,460 that are being done. 620 00:29:50,460 --> 00:29:53,380 And so actually that was probably one of my favorite bits 621 00:29:53,380 --> 00:29:55,180 about being involved in the OER. 622 00:29:55,180 --> 00:29:58,020 I was seeing all of the other really fantastic 623 00:29:58,020 --> 00:30:00,780 and interesting ways that other people use their grants 624 00:30:00,780 --> 00:30:01,980 at the university. 625 00:30:01,980 --> 00:30:06,180 So yes, I look forward to listening to all of your podcasts 626 00:30:06,180 --> 00:30:08,340 that talk about those in a little bit more detail 627 00:30:08,340 --> 00:30:10,500 'cause I only ever would have gotten the five 628 00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:12,940 or 10 minute version of what was going on. 629 00:30:12,940 --> 00:30:16,260 So certainly those things would have had an impact. 630 00:30:16,260 --> 00:30:19,060 Some of the positive stories, I don't know whether this is 631 00:30:19,060 --> 00:30:23,300 the best place, best time in the conversation to mention them. 632 00:30:23,300 --> 00:30:27,900 But some of the material that we'd used and drawn up on 633 00:30:27,900 --> 00:30:31,420 in the book, we had to either get permission to use it 634 00:30:31,420 --> 00:30:33,780 or we had to cut it out. 635 00:30:33,780 --> 00:30:36,700 There were a lot of things that can't be used 636 00:30:36,700 --> 00:30:37,660 or can't be used. 637 00:30:37,660 --> 00:30:41,140 And we actually had some really positive experiences 638 00:30:41,140 --> 00:30:43,300 in getting approval for some of those. 639 00:30:43,300 --> 00:30:48,060 So the Shell Centre for Learning had produced this very nice 640 00:30:48,060 --> 00:30:52,140 resource in the '80s, I think, or '70s or '80s. 641 00:30:52,140 --> 00:30:55,700 And one of my chapters was completely really their problems 642 00:30:55,700 --> 00:30:58,460 and even their graphics are done kind of a 643 00:30:58,460 --> 00:31:01,140 adaption of their graphics to use. 644 00:31:01,140 --> 00:31:04,700 And because it was in the '80s, they didn't have CC 645 00:31:04,700 --> 00:31:07,540 licenses back then or as far as I know. 646 00:31:07,540 --> 00:31:11,340 And so, but they immediately said, yes, our intention 647 00:31:11,340 --> 00:31:14,020 in what we released, and it was a free resource, 648 00:31:14,020 --> 00:31:18,500 and really it was kind of meant to be in the same vein as a CC. 649 00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:21,500 And they were really supportive and wanted to see the product 650 00:31:21,500 --> 00:31:23,100 once we'd released it. 651 00:31:23,100 --> 00:31:27,620 So even stories like that, always having positive interactions 652 00:31:27,620 --> 00:31:31,660 around something like open education resources 653 00:31:31,660 --> 00:31:35,580 where lots of people can have similar life philosophies 654 00:31:35,580 --> 00:31:38,380 and having those positive interactions is really great. 655 00:31:38,380 --> 00:31:39,820 I don't know how much I've wandered off 656 00:31:39,820 --> 00:31:41,540 from the original question, but yeah, 657 00:31:41,540 --> 00:31:44,860 that was some of the positive stories that come to mind for me. 658 00:31:44,860 --> 00:31:47,700 LAUREN: - It sounds like the experience of creating an OER 659 00:31:47,700 --> 00:31:50,540 and going through the process and through the program 660 00:31:50,540 --> 00:31:53,020 did have an impact on you as a teacher 661 00:31:53,020 --> 00:31:56,700 and you learned a lot of important skills and competencies 662 00:31:56,700 --> 00:31:59,580 that work well in your toolkit as a teacher. 663 00:31:59,580 --> 00:32:02,300 What was it like teaching with the resource 664 00:32:02,300 --> 00:32:04,540 in whatever form it was along the way? 665 00:32:04,540 --> 00:32:08,460 SIMON: - Having a resource that you've developed yourself, 666 00:32:08,460 --> 00:32:10,340 I guess it works two ways. 667 00:32:10,340 --> 00:32:13,180 It's always nice to be able to deliver the message 668 00:32:13,180 --> 00:32:16,460 that you want to deliver and have that kind of reinforced 669 00:32:16,460 --> 00:32:19,340 As teachers rather than having a resource where you might 670 00:32:19,340 --> 00:32:23,140 use it by necessity or you want to take some problems 671 00:32:23,140 --> 00:32:25,100 forward, but you don't necessarily agree 672 00:32:25,100 --> 00:32:28,460 with how material is presented or with the strictness 673 00:32:28,460 --> 00:32:30,380 of the answers that they come up with. 674 00:32:30,380 --> 00:32:32,980 And so you're constantly kind of creating maybe 675 00:32:32,980 --> 00:32:36,420 a little bit of dissonance between what the students are learning 676 00:32:36,420 --> 00:32:40,020 from the resources and what you intended them to learn 677 00:32:40,020 --> 00:32:41,700 or what you want them to get out of them. 678 00:32:41,700 --> 00:32:45,340 So I guess in that sense, having something that you've had 679 00:32:45,340 --> 00:32:50,340 a good hand in and something that you feel is shareable 680 00:32:50,340 --> 00:32:55,460 and widely shareable I think is a really nice thing 681 00:32:55,460 --> 00:32:59,020 and if it wasn't as much work as it is, 682 00:32:59,020 --> 00:33:02,140 I'd be wanting to push that on a lot of units 683 00:33:02,140 --> 00:33:06,220 to do similar things, but yeah, probably is a lot of upfront work. 684 00:33:06,220 --> 00:33:08,820 LAUREN: Chris, you are a learning designer. 685 00:33:08,820 --> 00:33:10,380 You're a librarian now. 686 00:33:10,380 --> 00:33:14,060 Both of these are arguably part of the teaching profession. 687 00:33:14,060 --> 00:33:19,020 So how did this experience shape how you approach your role 688 00:33:19,020 --> 00:33:21,580 as a member of the teaching profession? 689 00:33:21,580 --> 00:33:24,500 CHRIS: Well, obviously if those roles are members 690 00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:27,260 of the teaching profession, it's not at the coal face. 691 00:33:27,260 --> 00:33:30,620 It's in that third space that looks at influence. 692 00:33:30,620 --> 00:33:34,380 One of the things I was thinking as Simon was speaking 693 00:33:34,380 --> 00:33:37,860 is that most of the time when you're working 694 00:33:37,860 --> 00:33:43,180 on a unit revision, it involves a little bit of risk, 695 00:33:43,180 --> 00:33:46,260 particularly for everybody involved, to be honest, 696 00:33:46,260 --> 00:33:49,980 but for teaching stuff because often we are asking people 697 00:33:49,980 --> 00:33:55,220 to teach in a way that we can sit people down 698 00:33:55,220 --> 00:33:57,020 and show them the evidence that this is going 699 00:33:57,020 --> 00:33:58,980 to be the most effective way of teaching, 700 00:33:58,980 --> 00:34:01,340 but it's not necessarily the way that they used to doing it. 701 00:34:01,340 --> 00:34:06,780 And often, there needs to be all kinds of both contingencies, 702 00:34:06,780 --> 00:34:08,900 but also training sessions, put into place 703 00:34:08,900 --> 00:34:11,020 to ensure that tutors understand the approach 704 00:34:11,020 --> 00:34:14,220 and that it's taught in the way that it's intended. 705 00:34:14,220 --> 00:34:16,180 And that's part of the reason as well 706 00:34:16,180 --> 00:34:18,140 that there's so much upfront work that goes 707 00:34:18,140 --> 00:34:22,780 into the redevelopment of one of these digitally-led units 708 00:34:22,780 --> 00:34:26,140 that take what's now called the Deakin Design approach 709 00:34:26,140 --> 00:34:28,540 as part of that Cloud First project 710 00:34:28,540 --> 00:34:32,060 is that it means that students, no matter who's teaching it, 711 00:34:32,060 --> 00:34:35,460 get that consistently high quality unit. 712 00:34:35,460 --> 00:34:40,460 But a lot of that work around changing your mindset 713 00:34:40,460 --> 00:34:43,580 when it comes to teaching around ensuring 714 00:34:43,580 --> 00:34:46,580 that there are structures and training in place 715 00:34:46,580 --> 00:34:50,220 just seem totally redundant with Simon and Simon's unit. 716 00:34:50,220 --> 00:34:54,140 And a big part of that is Simon himself 717 00:34:54,140 --> 00:34:58,220 is already a really proactive and reflective teacher 718 00:34:58,220 --> 00:35:00,260 and that's really obvious to me, 719 00:35:00,260 --> 00:35:04,900 even before I had met him just looking through the unit content. 720 00:35:04,900 --> 00:35:08,220 And I think I said earlier that Simon's was one of the units 721 00:35:08,220 --> 00:35:11,820 and the best shapes that I had ever encountered 722 00:35:11,820 --> 00:35:15,580 during that sort of five, six year period I was doing unit revisions. 723 00:35:15,580 --> 00:35:19,380 But I do think that working through the process 724 00:35:19,380 --> 00:35:24,020 of revising that content, looking at it just with fresh eyes, 725 00:35:24,020 --> 00:35:26,540 being able to have these discussions, 726 00:35:26,540 --> 00:35:30,780 hopefully means that those, that kind of additional work 727 00:35:30,780 --> 00:35:33,420 that as a learning designer and additional things 728 00:35:33,420 --> 00:35:35,060 that we need to put into place, 729 00:35:35,060 --> 00:35:38,180 I just felt more and more confident weren't necessary. 730 00:35:38,180 --> 00:35:42,140 And I do think that the process of developing that content 731 00:35:42,140 --> 00:35:46,260 even in OER form really helped with that. 732 00:35:46,260 --> 00:35:49,820 And I think the other thing for me is it's about 733 00:35:49,820 --> 00:35:55,020 thinking judiciously about where an OER might be appropriate. 734 00:35:55,020 --> 00:35:59,940 Now, having being a colleague of yours in the library as well 735 00:35:59,940 --> 00:36:03,260 Lauren I think sometimes we get a slightly insulated view 736 00:36:03,260 --> 00:36:07,100 on what people's attitudes to open access 737 00:36:07,100 --> 00:36:08,900 and OER are. 738 00:36:08,900 --> 00:36:12,340 I know that there are a significant group of people 739 00:36:12,340 --> 00:36:15,620 who would only, what say they would only employ 740 00:36:15,620 --> 00:36:18,540 living there in the right circumstances. 741 00:36:18,540 --> 00:36:21,140 There's a sense that there's a lot of time involved 742 00:36:21,140 --> 00:36:23,060 and there is that was our experience as well. 743 00:36:23,060 --> 00:36:24,900 We would never have been able to do it without 744 00:36:24,900 --> 00:36:25,900 a grant. 745 00:36:25,900 --> 00:36:31,900 But also there's a sense that sometimes people's value 746 00:36:31,900 --> 00:36:34,620 as a teacher is in the content that they can deliver 747 00:36:34,620 --> 00:36:37,540 and they don't want to effectively replace themselves. 748 00:36:37,540 --> 00:36:40,140 There's a sense that goes along with that, 749 00:36:40,140 --> 00:36:43,500 that the university's IP is important 750 00:36:43,500 --> 00:36:45,620 and in part of what makes the university. 751 00:36:45,620 --> 00:36:47,340 But at the same time, that's usually 752 00:36:47,340 --> 00:36:49,940 balanced against a sense that we're making a difference 753 00:36:49,940 --> 00:36:52,580 and that the content that we're teaching is important. 754 00:36:52,580 --> 00:36:56,220 There's that philosophical debate that's always going on 755 00:36:56,220 --> 00:36:57,980 and then there's always the question 756 00:36:57,980 --> 00:37:00,220 from that learning design perspective. 757 00:37:00,220 --> 00:37:02,300 It's similar to AI. 758 00:37:02,300 --> 00:37:07,020 When it comes to just redeveloping a unit, 759 00:37:07,020 --> 00:37:10,540 it kind of would prefer in some ways 760 00:37:10,540 --> 00:37:13,100 that the unit development team 761 00:37:13,100 --> 00:37:15,140 were just grabbing something off the shelf 762 00:37:15,140 --> 00:37:16,500 and trying to plug something in. 763 00:37:16,500 --> 00:37:19,540 You want to see that they are interacting, 764 00:37:19,540 --> 00:37:21,940 bringing something important of themselves 765 00:37:21,940 --> 00:37:26,820 to the content and that the unit that's developed 766 00:37:26,820 --> 00:37:29,740 is developed in a way that is coherent 767 00:37:29,740 --> 00:37:32,460 with the rest of the course structure as well, 768 00:37:32,460 --> 00:37:34,300 which doesn't always lend itself 769 00:37:34,300 --> 00:37:37,020 well to general audience work. 770 00:37:37,020 --> 00:37:40,500 Now, I'm not mentioning all of these things to be a doubt 771 00:37:40,500 --> 00:37:41,860 because I think this is a great project 772 00:37:41,860 --> 00:37:43,740 and I think there are some really great projects 773 00:37:43,740 --> 00:37:45,140 that should OER. 774 00:37:45,140 --> 00:37:48,820 I think it'd be great if by default people could sit down 775 00:37:48,820 --> 00:37:51,580 and look at whether or not the information 776 00:37:51,580 --> 00:37:54,260 might be useful for a general audience 777 00:37:54,260 --> 00:37:58,380 or a more open audience and resources be allocated to that. 778 00:37:58,380 --> 00:38:01,180 I know it's not the reality of where we are. 779 00:38:01,180 --> 00:38:03,740 That's full circle to that point that I feel 780 00:38:03,740 --> 00:38:05,540 that having been through the work, 781 00:38:05,540 --> 00:38:08,180 being through put Simon through the ringer 782 00:38:08,180 --> 00:38:11,220 of developing a lot of that copyrighted content 783 00:38:11,220 --> 00:38:14,980 that I told him fully confident would be really simple 784 00:38:14,980 --> 00:38:16,620 and it would all be if you know 785 00:38:16,620 --> 00:38:19,500 copyright implications of any real worry 786 00:38:19,500 --> 00:38:24,500 to be concerned about and some 100 hours or more later 787 00:38:24,500 --> 00:38:27,380 of Simon and I, but mostly Simon, 788 00:38:27,380 --> 00:38:30,900 going through video and work and re-developing content 789 00:38:30,900 --> 00:38:33,580 to make sure it's copyright compliant. 790 00:38:33,580 --> 00:38:36,740 That was a painful lesson, but an important and good one 791 00:38:36,740 --> 00:38:40,460 that shows that OER needs to be something 792 00:38:40,460 --> 00:38:44,780 that you commit to fully and go into with your eyes open 793 00:38:44,780 --> 00:38:48,900 but that it is possible and that in some ways 794 00:38:48,900 --> 00:38:51,940 where it's possible and where we have the resources. 795 00:38:51,940 --> 00:38:54,420 I feel as a university, you know, 796 00:38:54,420 --> 00:38:57,500 if we believe - and I certainly do - that education 797 00:38:57,500 --> 00:38:59,340 can have the power to transform the way 798 00:38:59,340 --> 00:39:03,020 that people understand the world and relate to it 799 00:39:03,020 --> 00:39:07,540 and relate to others, then it's part of our social imperative 800 00:39:07,540 --> 00:39:11,660 I think to be open when we can with our teaching material. 801 00:39:11,660 --> 00:39:15,620 LAUREN: - So what I heard Chris is that there were a lot of challenges 802 00:39:15,620 --> 00:39:18,860 especially in terms of time and time as a resource 803 00:39:18,860 --> 00:39:21,660 and maybe implications about creating an OER 804 00:39:21,660 --> 00:39:23,220 that you weren't fully aware of. 805 00:39:23,220 --> 00:39:26,300 But it also sounds like the opportunity to work 806 00:39:26,300 --> 00:39:29,660 with an educator like Simon was incredibly fulfilling 807 00:39:29,660 --> 00:39:33,100 for you from the perspective of a learning designer 808 00:39:33,100 --> 00:39:36,100 and perhaps one of the impacts that it had on you 809 00:39:36,100 --> 00:39:39,700 was recognizing how fulfilling open education projects 810 00:39:39,700 --> 00:39:44,700 could be from sort of a pedagogical philosophy perspective. 811 00:39:44,780 --> 00:39:47,700 What I also heard was as a librarian, 812 00:39:47,700 --> 00:39:50,740 it's given you a more in depth understanding 813 00:39:50,740 --> 00:39:54,740 about OER creation projects that then you bring 814 00:39:54,740 --> 00:39:56,940 into your practice as a librarian, 815 00:39:56,940 --> 00:40:00,140 perhaps not being quite so evangelical 816 00:40:00,140 --> 00:40:03,780 as about open education and open access 817 00:40:03,780 --> 00:40:06,060 as some of us are, myself included. 818 00:40:06,060 --> 00:40:09,100 So it does sound like it had a really balanced impact 819 00:40:09,100 --> 00:40:10,900 on you as a teaching professional Chris. 820 00:40:10,900 --> 00:40:12,700 Is that fair to say? 821 00:40:12,700 --> 00:40:16,660 CHRIS: - Yeah, I suppose it is, then those are all kind things to say. 822 00:40:16,660 --> 00:40:20,180 And yeah, the only other thing I'd add to that is 823 00:40:20,180 --> 00:40:23,140 it may be more aware of the challenges 824 00:40:23,140 --> 00:40:27,220 and so more aware of where OER might be appropriate 825 00:40:27,220 --> 00:40:30,500 but that doesn't make me any less evangelical 826 00:40:30,500 --> 00:40:33,260 where it clearly is appropriate 827 00:40:33,260 --> 00:40:37,340 and where we have the time and money to do it. 828 00:40:37,340 --> 00:40:40,020 Again, I think there is a real social imperative 829 00:40:40,020 --> 00:40:41,900 to do it where it's appropriate. 830 00:40:41,900 --> 00:40:46,020 LAUREN: There's an expression that we often use in open land 831 00:40:46,020 --> 00:40:49,940 as open as possible, as closed as necessary. 832 00:40:49,940 --> 00:40:51,860 I would be really remiss in my job 833 00:40:51,860 --> 00:40:54,460 if what people took away from this project 834 00:40:54,460 --> 00:40:58,060 was that the idea that everyone should create an OER 835 00:40:58,060 --> 00:41:01,420 and that everything should be an OER creation project. 836 00:41:01,420 --> 00:41:04,860 If anything, what I would like to see is more people 837 00:41:04,860 --> 00:41:09,260 knowing about your OER and adopting your OER 838 00:41:09,260 --> 00:41:11,740 and the other OER that Deakin has published 839 00:41:11,740 --> 00:41:15,660 at other institutions, we wouldn't want every single institution 840 00:41:15,660 --> 00:41:19,900 to have a bespoke OER if there are these beautiful resources 841 00:41:19,900 --> 00:41:21,980 like yours already available. 842 00:41:21,980 --> 00:41:25,540 And there are swathes of them around the world, 843 00:41:25,540 --> 00:41:28,500 these free resources that anyone can access, 844 00:41:28,500 --> 00:41:30,580 anyone can download, anyone can share, 845 00:41:30,580 --> 00:41:32,740 anyone can change up a little bit. 846 00:41:32,740 --> 00:41:35,660 So I think that part of our job is also, 847 00:41:35,660 --> 00:41:39,940 my job, is also helping people consider existing OER 848 00:41:39,940 --> 00:41:43,100 as a pathway to being an open education practitioner 849 00:41:43,100 --> 00:41:46,340 and not that the only pathway to being an open education 850 00:41:46,340 --> 00:41:49,860 practitioner is to create a brand new resource. 851 00:41:49,860 --> 00:41:52,860 SIMON: - Another thing in support of all of these resources. 852 00:41:52,860 --> 00:41:54,900 So I mean, I've done more recently 853 00:41:54,900 --> 00:41:58,980 I have been developing units using an existing OER 854 00:41:58,980 --> 00:42:03,820 and then adding some extra open quiz system. 855 00:42:03,820 --> 00:42:05,940 So NumBas is an absolutely awesome, 856 00:42:05,940 --> 00:42:07,860 very flexible quiz system. 857 00:42:07,860 --> 00:42:11,260 So you're still able to give your, 858 00:42:11,260 --> 00:42:12,700 so just what Chris was talking about, 859 00:42:12,700 --> 00:42:17,260 still able to give your flavor to the open resource. 860 00:42:17,260 --> 00:42:20,500 So you're not completely outsourcing your learning, 861 00:42:20,500 --> 00:42:22,500 you're taking something that exists 862 00:42:22,500 --> 00:42:24,940 and then integrating it in the way 863 00:42:24,940 --> 00:42:26,260 that you want to teach the subject. 864 00:42:26,260 --> 00:42:29,660 But if we don't do this, there's so many risks 865 00:42:29,660 --> 00:42:31,980 that we come up to if you force students 866 00:42:31,980 --> 00:42:35,380 to pay for a textbook or use the software 867 00:42:35,380 --> 00:42:37,500 even that's associated with textbooks. 868 00:42:37,500 --> 00:42:40,540 You know, it starts out at $10 per student 869 00:42:40,540 --> 00:42:42,860 and then they jack up the price at half way down 870 00:42:42,860 --> 00:42:44,860 and then you've already invested all of this time 871 00:42:44,860 --> 00:42:47,060 and money maybe into creating a resource 872 00:42:47,060 --> 00:42:47,980 that you don't own. 873 00:42:47,980 --> 00:42:50,380 So that's the best thing about or one of the things 874 00:42:50,380 --> 00:42:52,700 that a lot of these things I kind of take for granted. 875 00:42:52,700 --> 00:42:56,380 So I am essentially evangelical as well. 876 00:42:56,380 --> 00:42:59,620 But you know, when you're dependent on someone else's resource 877 00:42:59,620 --> 00:43:03,740 and they control the way that that resource is delivered to you, 878 00:43:03,740 --> 00:43:06,300 it gives you a huge risk 879 00:43:06,300 --> 00:43:07,860 in terms of what you're doing in the future. 880 00:43:07,860 --> 00:43:12,100 So that's the other reason why I think OER are very handy. 881 00:43:12,100 --> 00:43:14,700 LAUREN: Simon, are you hearing any stories of colleagues 882 00:43:14,700 --> 00:43:18,100 at other institutions using your OER? 883 00:43:18,100 --> 00:43:22,500 SIMON: There was a team in America, maybe Chicago or something 884 00:43:22,500 --> 00:43:24,540 that had wanted to use one of the videos 885 00:43:24,540 --> 00:43:27,460 that's included in the OER as a resource 886 00:43:27,460 --> 00:43:30,380 for a teaching program that they were making for. 887 00:43:30,380 --> 00:43:32,500 Yeah, essentially similar kind of cohort to us. 888 00:43:32,500 --> 00:43:35,500 So I think maybe teachers that were already out there 889 00:43:35,500 --> 00:43:38,780 that were kind of getting upskilling and everything like that. 890 00:43:38,780 --> 00:43:43,940 So being able to, you know, often if people come across a resource 891 00:43:43,940 --> 00:43:47,820 through a university site that's not necessarily cleared, 892 00:43:47,820 --> 00:43:50,580 then being able to share it is not necessarily easy, 893 00:43:50,580 --> 00:43:53,500 but because this was part of OER, I'm like, you know, 894 00:43:53,500 --> 00:43:56,900 it's open access, you can use it, go for it. 895 00:43:56,900 --> 00:43:57,860 So that was kind of cool. 896 00:43:57,860 --> 00:43:59,180 I hope that's being used well. 897 00:43:59,180 --> 00:44:02,220 I don't really have insight into exactly how 898 00:44:02,220 --> 00:44:05,980 it's used or how it's been going, but I love the idea of it. 899 00:44:05,980 --> 00:44:08,420 LAUREN: My last question, second to last question actually. 900 00:44:08,420 --> 00:44:12,020 Second to last question is a little bit introspective, 901 00:44:12,020 --> 00:44:13,700 a little bit meta, you might say. 902 00:44:13,700 --> 00:44:16,220 So we know that this is not just a podcast 903 00:44:16,220 --> 00:44:19,260 to celebrate your work and surface the stories. 904 00:44:19,260 --> 00:44:21,020 It's also a research project. 905 00:44:21,020 --> 00:44:23,860 This conversation is going to become research data 906 00:44:23,860 --> 00:44:26,700 that the team and I are going to analyze. 907 00:44:26,700 --> 00:44:30,020 I'm really curious what you all think it all means. 908 00:44:30,020 --> 00:44:33,220 What do your stories tell us about the impact 909 00:44:33,220 --> 00:44:36,980 that open educational resources have on learning and teaching? 910 00:44:36,980 --> 00:44:38,860 SIMON: I guess for me, one of the things that's 911 00:44:38,860 --> 00:44:41,580 been really obvious in the conversations 912 00:44:41,580 --> 00:44:44,980 that we've had, you know, the impact can be everywhere, 913 00:44:44,980 --> 00:44:47,860 like on, you know, as part of the creation process, 914 00:44:47,860 --> 00:44:52,220 as part of having a nice finished resource that, you know, 915 00:44:52,220 --> 00:44:55,460 Erin talks about the, it's a nice finished product 916 00:44:55,460 --> 00:44:56,500 that she can show. 917 00:44:56,500 --> 00:44:59,820 It's a nice set of experiences that she can speak positively 918 00:44:59,820 --> 00:45:02,180 to when she's going out to things. 919 00:45:02,180 --> 00:45:05,620 It's a nice symbol of the collaborations 920 00:45:05,620 --> 00:45:07,500 that we've all done together. 921 00:45:07,500 --> 00:45:10,100 It's always we've got all of our names together 922 00:45:10,100 --> 00:45:12,620 on the front cover of that very nice resource. 923 00:45:12,620 --> 00:45:15,660 So all of those things, I think, can be very nice. 924 00:45:15,660 --> 00:45:19,260 I said nice a lot, but yeah, in creating OEAs, 925 00:45:19,260 --> 00:45:22,260 it is that lasting impact as part of the process 926 00:45:22,260 --> 00:45:24,500 of creating it, part of the process of using it, 927 00:45:24,500 --> 00:45:28,140 part of the process of learning about other OEAs as well. 928 00:45:28,140 --> 00:45:32,140 I think, you know, it really is not a compartmentalised thing 929 00:45:32,140 --> 00:45:34,820 that has small impacts. 930 00:45:34,820 --> 00:45:36,460 LAUREN: Chris, what do you think the impact is? 931 00:45:36,460 --> 00:45:38,300 What are your stories tell us? 932 00:45:38,300 --> 00:45:43,140 CHIRS: Look, I think that this story tells us that when teachers 933 00:45:43,140 --> 00:45:45,780 and potentially people in that third space 934 00:45:45,780 --> 00:45:48,900 can have the time and resources to come together 935 00:45:48,900 --> 00:45:52,180 and collaborate, then it can change the way 936 00:45:52,180 --> 00:45:55,540 that we approach tertiary education. 937 00:45:55,540 --> 00:45:57,700 Taking that, digitally led approach 938 00:45:57,700 --> 00:46:01,620 and having time to sit back and reflect about 939 00:46:01,620 --> 00:46:03,300 what's going to be best for students, 940 00:46:03,300 --> 00:46:06,220 what's going to make a great learning experience for them, 941 00:46:06,220 --> 00:46:08,820 how that might work, how it might integrate 942 00:46:08,820 --> 00:46:10,900 with classes and assessment, 943 00:46:10,900 --> 00:46:15,580 and really taking that holistic, big picture view 944 00:46:15,580 --> 00:46:19,020 can produce really fantastic outcomes for students. 945 00:46:19,020 --> 00:46:21,940 And we have talked about it being a lot of work 946 00:46:21,940 --> 00:46:26,340 and we won't lie, it is, but front loading that work 947 00:46:26,340 --> 00:46:28,740 means that a lot of the work down the track 948 00:46:28,740 --> 00:46:30,260 and the teaching is already done. 949 00:46:30,260 --> 00:46:32,060 The content creation is there. 950 00:46:32,060 --> 00:46:34,020 It's a really great quality. 951 00:46:34,020 --> 00:46:36,460 The lesson plans are there, in place 952 00:46:36,460 --> 00:46:39,020 and things, you know, should run smoothly, 953 00:46:39,020 --> 00:46:40,620 especially after a couple of runs. 954 00:46:40,620 --> 00:46:44,060 So, yeah, just as a way of approaching the design 955 00:46:44,060 --> 00:46:47,420 and development of learning content, 956 00:46:47,420 --> 00:46:52,140 I feel like that digitally driven open mindset approach 957 00:46:52,140 --> 00:46:53,660 is something, yeah. 958 00:46:53,660 --> 00:46:56,100 I mean, you used the term evangelical, something 959 00:46:56,100 --> 00:46:59,340 I'm extremely passionate and evangelical about. 960 00:46:59,340 --> 00:47:02,180 LAUREN: My very last question, this one's actually the last one. 961 00:47:02,180 --> 00:47:05,740 For anyone, what is your favorite part of the OER? 962 00:47:05,740 --> 00:47:09,020 SIMON: Very obviously, Erin's pictures. 963 00:47:09,020 --> 00:47:10,540 LAUREN: Any picture in particular? 964 00:47:10,540 --> 00:47:12,900 SIMON: Yeah, the one that probably comes to mind 965 00:47:12,900 --> 00:47:15,620 is for a sequences topic and she just 966 00:47:15,620 --> 00:47:18,300 had all of the animals kind of in line. 967 00:47:18,300 --> 00:47:19,580 It was always nice. 968 00:47:19,580 --> 00:47:21,900 Yes, Erin did have to work with real people here 969 00:47:21,900 --> 00:47:23,980 to give very vague ideas and just say, 970 00:47:23,980 --> 00:47:26,020 "I just kind of do something with what we have." 971 00:47:26,020 --> 00:47:27,580 And so, I don't know. 972 00:47:27,580 --> 00:47:30,380 The intrigue of just kind of looking at her images 973 00:47:30,380 --> 00:47:33,780 and saying, "First, what's the connection to the material?" 974 00:47:33,780 --> 00:47:36,420 I think is very enjoyable for me 975 00:47:36,420 --> 00:47:39,740 and I assume enjoyable for other people, but yes. 976 00:47:39,740 --> 00:47:41,700 LAUREN: Chris, favorite thing about the OER? 977 00:47:41,700 --> 00:47:44,500 SIMON: Well, how can I go past what Simon just said? 978 00:47:44,500 --> 00:47:46,580 Definitely the imagery. 979 00:47:46,580 --> 00:47:49,460 It took it to another level. 980 00:47:49,460 --> 00:47:53,220 I mean, I enjoyed the experience of collaborating with others too, 981 00:47:53,220 --> 00:47:56,180 but in terms of the finished product, absolutely. 982 00:47:56,180 --> 00:47:59,220 I can think of another one, which is an underwater one, 983 00:47:59,220 --> 00:48:03,060 a series of bubbles rising in the perfect bell curve, 984 00:48:03,060 --> 00:48:08,260 which just shows how much time and effort Erin put into 985 00:48:08,260 --> 00:48:10,660 developing those images because you'll be, 986 00:48:10,660 --> 00:48:12,500 but I don't think it either of us sat down 987 00:48:12,500 --> 00:48:14,300 and explained to her what a bell curve was 988 00:48:14,300 --> 00:48:15,380 and what it was supposed to look like. 989 00:48:15,380 --> 00:48:16,900 She figured that out. 990 00:48:16,900 --> 00:48:19,140 LAUREN: Erin, do you have a favorite part of the OER? 991 00:48:19,140 --> 00:48:23,180 ERIN: Maybe getting rid of my fear of maths a little bit. 992 00:48:23,180 --> 00:48:26,820 No, I really just enjoyed talking to these guys 993 00:48:26,820 --> 00:48:29,980 and figuring out how to make these banners 994 00:48:29,980 --> 00:48:32,780 because the banners, I will say, are my favorite part, 995 00:48:32,780 --> 00:48:36,580 especially making them because they had so many awesome ideas, 996 00:48:36,580 --> 00:48:41,380 especially how to show the maths in terms of animals and space. 997 00:48:41,380 --> 00:48:43,300 So that was really cool to work on. 998 00:48:43,300 --> 00:48:46,460 LAUREN: I really want to thank the three of you so much 999 00:48:46,460 --> 00:48:48,380 for sitting down with me today 1000 00:48:48,380 --> 00:48:50,060 and having this conversation. 1001 00:48:50,060 --> 00:48:53,020 I'll take us out with some credits, very short. 1002 00:48:53,020 --> 00:48:55,340 Stories of Openness is a limited series 1003 00:48:55,340 --> 00:48:58,780 from the Open Education team at Deackin University Library. 1004 00:48:58,780 --> 00:49:02,340 It's part of a research by Podcast Project led by me, 1005 00:49:02,340 --> 00:49:05,740 Lauren Halcomb-Smith, with Angie Williamson, Danni Johnson, 1006 00:49:05,740 --> 00:49:06,900 and Eddie Puvuna. 1007 00:49:06,900 --> 00:49:08,860 We choose Open wherever possible, 1008 00:49:08,860 --> 00:49:12,420 including Audacity for Editing, Castopod for hosting, 1009 00:49:12,420 --> 00:49:14,260 and Music by Scott Holmes Music. 1010 00:49:14,260 --> 00:49:16,180 This podcast by Deakin University 1011 00:49:16,180 --> 00:49:20,420 is licensed under a CC by NC 4.0 license. 1012 00:49:20,420 --> 00:49:23,300 For more information and full acknowledgments, 1013 00:49:23,300 --> 00:49:25,220 please see our show notes. 1014 00:49:25,220 --> 00:49:26,700 Thank you so much for listening, 1015 00:49:26,700 --> 00:49:29,860 and thank you again, Simon, Chris, and Erin. 1016 00:49:29,860 --> 00:49:32,440 (gentle music) 1017 00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,020 (gentle music)