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(upbeat music)

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LAUREN: Hello and welcome listeners.

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You are listening to Stories of Openness,

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a limited series podcast created by the Open Education Team

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at Deakin University Library.

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My name is Lauren Halcomb-Smith, and I'm your host.

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I'm a lecturer of Open Education at Deakin,

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and I'm on a mission to explore the impact

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that Open Educational Resources, or OER,

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are having on learning and teaching at Deakin.

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OER are free textbooks and other learning materials

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that anyone can use, adapt, and share,

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which is unlike traditional textbooks

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that are locked behind high costs and copyright restrictions.

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In this series, I'm talking with Deakin academics

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about their experiences of creating

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and using open resources.

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This podcast is part of a research project

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that uses podcasting as a research methodology.

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So this conversation is both a podcast episode

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and open research data.

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I am coming to you today from the beautiful,

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traditional and unseated lands of the Boonwurrung people,

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and I gratefully acknowledge them

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as the traditional custodians of the lands, seas, and skies.

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And I recognize that this has been a place

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of learning, teaching, and rich conversations for millennia.

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And speaking of rich conversations,

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today I am joined by associate professor Sagarika Mishra

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from Deakin's Faculty of Business and Law.

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Sagarika is an interdisciplinary researcher

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with expertise in AI and corporate settings,

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corporate culture, corporate governance,

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and climate risk on financial markets.

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And in addition to her research teaching and publishing work,

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Sagarika is a co-author of an open textbook

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titled Business Finance, which was published in 2023.

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This resource was developed with international students in mind

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with a view to making business finance concepts

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more easily understood without overwhelming readers.

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The book balances theory and practice

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with clear explanations, real-world examples,

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and problem-solving exercises.

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Welcome, Sagarika.

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Thank you so much for being here today.

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How are you this morning?

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SAGARIKA: I'm good, Lauren.

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And many thanks for this opportunity.

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I think this is a brilliant idea what you're working on.

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And I was really excited when I was

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doing my-- when I was preparing the OER

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for my business finance students.

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So very happy to be here.

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LAUREN: Oh, excellent.

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Thank you.

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LAUREN: Now, I'm so curious, Sagarika, what led you

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to want to create an OER about business finance?

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SAGARIKA: Great question.

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So yeah, resource actually emerged

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from a fairly practical classroom observation rather

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than a grand plan.

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You know, I never had a plan to prepare something like that.

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But what I noticed is that there is a mismatch between textbook

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and how students actually engage with learning materials.

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And the textbooks are expensive, as you know.

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And their language can be quite dense.

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And in most subjects, we only rely on a relative small portion

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of them.

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And for many students, especially those

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from the lower socio-economic backgrounds,

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purchasing a book for every single subject

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is simply not realistic, right?

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And then it becomes a financial decision rather

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than a learning decision.

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So by doing this OER, it's allowed

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me to design something more targeted.

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And I could focus directly on the concepts students

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struggle with and present them in a clear manner

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and update the material frequently, right?

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So the motivation was really about accessibility, clarity,

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and alignment with how teaching actually works rather

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than any grand plan.

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LAUREN: And so you were noticing that your students weren't buying

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the textbook?

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SAGARIKA:No, no, they were buying.

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But not all of them, right?

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I mean, they would often, like, you know,

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when I finished the first class, they would come to me

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and tell me, do I have to buy the textbook?

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And I would like, you know, because it's a prescribed textbook,

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then I cannot say that no, you can do without a textbook,

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because it's important that they go through the, you know,

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concepts, you know, they need something

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to actually read and understand,

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because it's not possible for me to actually talk about everything

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in the class, right?

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And because my class duration was like two hours

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and I have to cover, like, you know, a whole topic within that.

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So at a maximum, I can spare, like, you know,

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couple of slides for a concept, right?

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But they need actually more information

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about to understand it properly, right?

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So I have to have the book as a prescribed textbook for the unit.

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So there were, like, copies in the library,

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but obviously, you know, my class size was like 400 plus students.

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So it's, and the library cannot keep that many copies

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in the library, right?

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So it's just not possible.

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So we used to have, like, a e-book version in the library.

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So there were multiple e-copies that student can access.

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But still, you know, and I feel that student,

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when they're studying, they would like to have the book with them.

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That gives them the, you know, confidence that, okay, yes, I have it.

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I can just go and open it any time and look for the concept.

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Rather than thinking, okay, I'm going to go and find the book

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in the library or, you know, or basically go online

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and find the e-book.

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What if the e-book is not available?

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Or, you know, the internet is not there, right?

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So there are a whole lot of issues.

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And I understand it actually because, you know,

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if I'm reading something, right, I would like to have the book with me.

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So that gives me the mental peace that, you know, yes, I have the book.

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I can open it and read it any time I want, right?

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And when they come to me asking whether they have to buy the book,

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I could understand that, you know, maybe it is a financial pressure.

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And they would often ask me, can I get an older edition?

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Because older editions are usually cheaper.

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So these are the issues that led me to think about creating my own resources

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for the students so that, you know, it's easier for a student to access.

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LAUREN: Do you remember how much the textbook cost the buy?

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SAGARIKA:Yeah, it's $150 or $160.

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LAUREN: Wow. SAGARIKA: And we would actually use only 10% or 5% of the book

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because it is, you know, a undergrad class, right?

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So obviously, I do not require to cover 100 pages

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that is allocated for a specific topic or maybe, you know, 50 pages or so, right?

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Because they don't need to.

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They have to do masters or, you know, even go higher like PhD to learn the other stuff, right?

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So they just need to get the basics and, yeah, I mean, that's the story.

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LAUREN: I guess it's probably a story that so many of us, myself, you, our listeners,

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can probably relate to this experience of, okay, I'm going to spend $160 on a textbook,

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which is a lot for an undergraduate student.

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SAGARIKA:Yeah.

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LAUREN: And then there's the frustration of maybe not using it, the frustration

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when it's not fit for purpose for your class.

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Or if you take the other path and you try and use the ebook or use the library book,

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it's just another barrier for students, you know, that not even the actual barrier

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if the book isn't available, but the additional time and effort

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that students have to go to to gain access to the book, even if it is available.

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It's a story we hear all the time in the open education space.

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SAGARIKA: Yeah.

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LAUREN: And so you decided my students need an open textbook that's fit for purpose.

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SAGARIKA: Yeah.

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LAUREN: What happened next?

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SAGARIKA: Yeah, I decided and initially I actually wasn't planning to have the whole book.

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You know, I was just thinking maybe I'll just focus on the part where the

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the concept that students find, you know, difficult to follow.

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But then as I was starting to prepare, you know, putting things together, you know,

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then I thought maybe given that I'm already starting, might as well just go for the whole whole thing.

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It would take a bit of time.

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Luckily, I actually started a bit earlier.

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So the book was published in 2023, but I started sometimes, you know, late 2022.

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So I just thought that, you know, okay, I can spare some more time and I have a complete

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resource for my students.

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And there was an advertisement about, you know, promotion about like OER grant from Deakin Library.

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So I applied for the grant and then I basically mentioned the factors that I just mentioned

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to you about like the OER story, like the accessibility student accessibility and student

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coming from low socioeconomic background and, you know, how the content is dense.

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And then I applied for a grant to actually prepare the OER.

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And I got the grant and that basically started the process.

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I would say it took me like three months or so because I was kind of focusing on full-time.

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Full time, meaning most of the time I was trying to, you know,

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most of the time I was trying to like focus on the writing the OER.

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And one thing was that because I have been teaching this unit since 2016.

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And over the years, when I was changing like, okay, how should I explain this concept?

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So I had some notes as well.

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So every time I'm taking a new approach, so I have that note.

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So I was trying to like put it together.

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Okay, what did I do with a couple of years ago and what I'm saying now.

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And then just trying to combine and, you know, rewriting those things.

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So that also helped, like, you know, because that I was teaching it for some time.

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Because I was in the space as you can understand, right?

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I mean, and every time, and every time actually I'm teaching, even though I'm teaching the same subject,

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I try to think about how best I can communicate this.

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So later on in the later stage, actually, I was using a case study to explain business finance concept.

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So I was using the case study in the class.

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But, you know, in the OER, I don't think I mentioned about the case study.

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So it was a standalone concept.

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And in the class, they were understanding that concept in the context of a case study.

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LAUREN: I love this because what it sounds like to me is the material that went into the OER

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is really tried and tested over several years.

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And you have your own sort of observations as evidence of the success in your approach.

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SAGARIKA: Yeah, that actually helped me to put it together in a relatively short amount.

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Because, you know, I have been teaching this.

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And I have some, you know, notes around like how I want to explain over the years.

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Yeah, so that's basically helped a lot.

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LAUREN: And so you worked with the library with the open education librarians.

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And presumably the copyright team.

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So all of the material in the resource would be completely openly available.

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SAGARIKA: Yes, that's a very important piece actually.

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And that's what the library team also mentioned.

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That, you know, I need to put images and figures.

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Those are freely available because, you know, there is this copyright issue.

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So what was happening is that I was preparing chapter by chapter.

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Because in it, a Deakin we have a trimester system, right?

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So we have 10 weeks and 10 weeks of lectures.

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So I was preparing material week by week.

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And then I was sending it to the library team to go through.

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And you know, to make sure that the images or the figures that I have used.

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There is no copyright to it.

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And couple of times they have actually flagged that, okay, this is a copyright image.

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So then I have gone back.

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Sometimes they help me to find, you know, like alternative image

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and figures that I can use.

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And sometimes I have tried to construct, like, make the image myself, you know,

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to put it in the, in the, OER.

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So that way it was very helpful, you know, that library colleagues were very helpful in helping me put this thing together.

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LAUREN: And so there's nine chapters.

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Does that correspond to the structure of the unit?

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SAGARIKA:Yes, the 10 chapters actually, 10 chapters.

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And we have 11 weeks.

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And the final week is the revision week.

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So there is no new content we cover in week 11.

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So the 10 chapters basically corresponds to the 10 weeks that we have at Deakin.

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LAUREN: So you've gone from a textbook where your students are maybe only using 10% of a $160 text

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to an open textbook that's free that they're using every week.

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And it really fit for purpose.

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SAGARIKA: Yes. Yeah, the good thing about the OER is that I have a lot of flexibility, right?

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So I want to change something next year.

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Okay, I have something like, you know, okay, maybe I don't like.

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I realize that, you know, when I'm teaching.

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And then next year I can just go back and edit that.

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So that's how, you know, it gives me the flexibility to actually edit it multiple times.

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Or however many times that I like.

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And that way I can keep it current as well.

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Because once, if you think about books, once it is published,

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it's very hard to revise it because it's very, very expensive to revise

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and then, you know, print it all over again.

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But in the case of OER, because, you know,

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I have the freedom and flexibility to go and change.

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So if something happening in the business finance world in corporate business,

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I can actually, if I find a current example,

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I can just incorporate it right away, right?

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So that is also another best part of OER.

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LAUREN: And I think this really speaks to the quality of OER in general,

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which is one of the misconceptions around the OER is that they're,

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you know, they lack rigor.

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But what we actually see is because they're born digital and they're,

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you can update them fully and transparently.

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You know, you see, you know, we are people state the revisions.

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It means that you can maintain the quality.

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SAGARIKA: Yeah, 100%.

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You know, like quality, I don't think OER has any quality issue.

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Because, you know, like, I'm, I'm thinking that, you know,

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academics like us will be, you know, writing the OER for their students.

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So it’s more targeted.

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And, you know, it may be like, you know, a simplified version of, you know,

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what we see in the books.

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So it actually depends.

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If I'm writing an OER for my second year students at Deakin,

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then it has to be at that level, right?

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I mean, I have to bring in the rigor at the undergrad level.

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I don't want to bring in the rigor of a master's level,

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because that book is the OER is not for master's student, right?

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LAUREN: Well, I think that would just put up another barrier, right?

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If it's written for a level beyond the students, it just creates more barriers.

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SAGARIKA: Yeah. So, you know, it actually depends for who we are writing the, the OER.

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And the level of rigor would come based on that.

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So you have to think about quality in the context of the student, level of degree,

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I would say, whether they're doing a bachelor's or whether they're doing a master's.

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So the rigor would depend on that.

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If the chapters are written in a simplified manner,

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that does not mean that, you know, the quality is bad.

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It's just meant for a first-year-level student, you know,

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who would easily understand that.

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LAUREN: So the book was published in 2023,

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where at the start of 2026 now,

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is the book being used actively in Deakin units?

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SAGARIKA: Yes. I think the book went on one round of revision

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because I was teaching this unit until 2024.

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And 2025, I took a break because I was teaching something else.

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By end of 2024, it was about 9,000 views or 9,000 visitors.

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Yeah, about 14,143 page views by end of 2024.

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If you look at the figure for end of 2025,

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it is actually even bigger.

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We have about 19,000 visitors and 32,379 page views.

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Right? So it's basically the page views tells you that

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it's not that they're just clicking on it.

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They are actually reading the concepts that is there on that page.

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LAUREN: So I know it's getting used. Are you hearing stories about the impact

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that it's having on learning?

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SAGARIKA: Definitely when I was teaching the unit,

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student would definitely come up to me and tell me, you know,

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that this is a really great resource because it's

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made concepts very easy to understand.

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It's very accessible.

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So I have heard a lot of stories around how helpful this is.

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When I was teaching, and as you look at the analytics of the book,

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19,000 visitors, so many thousands of page views,

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that basically says that it's a really great resource for students

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so that students keep coming back to it.

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And it's not just our Deakin students.

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It's also used by other reference as well.

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I mean, if you're looking for a concept in Google,

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you know, Google probably can draw from that OER and present,

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that present that to whoever is searching for the concept.

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Because that's what in the analytics,

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that's what we also see that, you know,

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there are so many referrals from google.com and other Bing.com,

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even chatgpt.com for Perplexity AI.

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So it's being referred by many resources, many other resources as well.

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LAUREN: And when you were teaching with the textbook, with the OER,

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what did you notice about your students in terms of their success in the unit?

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SAGARIKA: Success is actually related.

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I mean, being successful in the unit, a lot depends on whether they understand the concept.

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That's one thing.

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And also, you know, it also depends on how well they can articulate that

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when it comes to exam, right?

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I mean, so there are two sides of things.

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So definitely, you know, I have a very good success rate in my unit.

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So the fail rate was down in the unit.

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So that basically, you know, tells me that, you know,

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probably the resources are adequate for the students to do well in the unit.

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LAUREN: Did you sort of notice that on a day-to-day basis when teaching?

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But they seem to understand better?

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SAGARIKA: Yes, definitely.

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Because I was teaching a big class,

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it's basically hard to actually see that on a day-to-day basis

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that, you know, whether students are understanding.

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But I would guess that from their performance in the assessment,

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and also, you know, the type of questions that I get in the discussion forum.

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I mean, in the discussion forum, if I do not see very basic questions,

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then I would say that, okay, they're getting those concepts.

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Well, right? So they're only asking about concepts that are a bit complex for them.

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And also, if I see less number of questions in the discussion forum,

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then I would also feel that, okay, maybe they understand.

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So they do not have a whole lot of questions about what we cover in the lecture.

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LAUREN: And what was that like for you as a teacher?

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SAGARIKA: Right. Obviously, I was feeling very good about it.

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This is even before, when we made it available for students in my 2023 trimester,

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first trimester one, but by writing the finishing the OEA

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actually gave me a lot of satisfaction to tell you the truth.

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I mean, for myself that, okay, I was able to create something

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which student can access.

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They actually do not have to buy the textbook if they don't want to.

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There were some students who wanted to have a book for whatever reason.

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So when I taught in T1 2023,

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so I basically told them that, look, I have created this resource.

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This is a free resource.

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You can download it.

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You can make a copy of it, you know, it is completely free.

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But this is the book.

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This is the prescribed textbook that I have, that I have been prescribing for the last couple of years.

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But this is also there if you want to buy a book, you know, feel free to buy the book.

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Because there were like few students who wanted to buy the book.

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So, you know, so they have the freedom to buy the book if they want to.

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LAUREN: And so with the new OER in place as the prescribed textbook,

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what else changed in terms of how you were teaching the unit?

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SAGARIKA: When I go to class for like, you know, let's say I'm going to class in week two,

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as preparation, I used to like tell students to go through if I'm prescribing a textbook,

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then I have to actually go through the pages of the book, right?

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And to and prescribe to student that, okay, go, go over page 25 to 27.

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And then 32 to 33.

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Because it's all, you know, like in different space,

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it's not a continuous thing that, okay, you read 25 to page 30 and your prep will be done.

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So it was like, you know, for me to look for within the textbook,

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which are the relevant pages.

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And sometimes the relevant page would be like three, four chapters beyond.

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Like I'm talking, I'm doing topic two in my lecture.

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And the relevant content would come from chapter three, chapter five,

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and chapter seven in the book, right?

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Because they were like all scattered, scattered,

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but it's probably organized from the point of view of the book, right?

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I mean, because the authors of the book have something in mind that's how they have organized it.

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But for me, prescribing is a bit hard, right?

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Because I'm picking things from different chapters from different from the book.

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In the context of OER, I can just say, okay, you just read chapter two from the OER,

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because it has the complete package for week two content.

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So prescribing to student, what they need to prepare before coming to class was a lot easier with OER.

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LAUREN: Sounds like a lot less preparation for you.

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SAGARIKA: Yeah, yeah, meaning I have already done my preparation by writing that OER, right?

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I mean, I do not have to do additional preparation.

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And in this case, I can just say that, okay, you go over chapter two of the OER,

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and that would get you ready for whatever we are going to cover in week two.

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LAUREN: Did you find that you were spending less time on the basics because they were in the OER?

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SAGARIKA: Yeah, like given that I have written that OER, so I have a plan in my mind, right?

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And I know that whenever I'm covering some concepts,

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I know the associated content is there in the OER.

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So, you know, I don't have to worry about it.

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If they don't get it fully, they can go back to the OER and read it.

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So, that way, you know, there was lesser amount of anxiety for me about, okay,

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whether students are following this, whether they are going to get it.

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And I am very big on that in a sense that, you know, if I'm teaching something,

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and this actually varies from person to person, I am very, very particular

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about our students getting what I'm teaching, right?

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It's very important for me that what I'm teaching students should understand that,

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because, you know, obviously, it's important and we are building future generation.

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So, it's a big deal for me.

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For me, having that mental peace that, yes, I have given them what they require

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to do well to understand the concepts is very important.

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So, that way, it gave me a lot of satisfaction.

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LAUREN: I love this.

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Did the experience of creating an OER and being sort of part of the open education space,

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was that something that you were already pretty invested in?

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Or did you learn a lot about open education through this process?

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SAGARIKA: No, actually, yes.

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I mean, I didn't know about OER until library colleagues told me about it.

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So, I was always thinking about, you know, creating my own resources.

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But, as you can understand it is, it could be a bit time consuming.

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I wasn't actually aware of the idea of OER and everything,

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but once I got to know from the library colleagues that, you know,

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this is something that we can create, I just love the idea.

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And now I'm very much familiar with the OER resources.

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LAUREN: Has that experience changed the way that you teach at all?

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SAGARIKA: Having the OER on the side gave me a lot of satisfaction in terms of

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that, yes, I have built something which is relevant and targeted for the students that I am teaching.

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That way, you can say that, you know, I can be more relaxed in the classroom.

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I used to use a case study when I was teaching business finance.

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So, that actually helped me focus more on the case study that I was doing.

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Rather than, you know, worrying too much about whether they have enough resources

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to actually understand this.

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Because when you are using a case study, so there are some case study related, you know,

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could be technical terms or, you know, because we are trying to understand a business, right?

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So, there are different, many different aspects of the business.

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Important thing is that what we always do in theory may not match in the practical setting.

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So, I can actually spend more time on talking about what is happening in the practical context

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and draw parallel to what we know from theory and what we actually see in the context of a real

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business, right? And that would be difference. Having the OER actually helped me focus on the

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practical aspect or how the concept is actually used in the business.

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I could focus more on that rather than, you know, spending more time on the theory bit.

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Because I know that the theory part is taken care of.

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LAUREN: And are you hearing stories of impact that this OER is having beyond Deakin?

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SAGARIKA: I don't know whether this 19,000 visitors are all from Deakin because my class size is

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definitely not that big. Definitely it has been used beyond Deakin and that we can actually see

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just from the stats, from the analytics of like how many page views and where it is referred.

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I know that Deakin students know it's there, so they are not going to go to Google or, you know,

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to chat GPT or, you know, anywhere else to search for concepts, right? So maybe others are searching

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and that's how it's referring to the OER that we have.

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LAUREN: Are you hearing yet from any other institutions or from colleagues who are sort of in industry at

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OER? SAGARIKA: As I said that after I did the OER like I taught for a couple of years and then I moved away

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from that subject, I haven't had an opportunity to hear from like people from industry or others

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about the impact yet. LAUREN: So as you know, we are recording this podcast as part of a research project.

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What do you think that these stories that you've told us today tell us about the impact that OER

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have on learning and teaching? SAGARIKA: One important or noticeable effect I would see that

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how students interact with the material. Instead of treating like a traditional book,

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they appear to use it more as a reference resource returning to specific sections and particularly

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around, you know, those are conceptually demanding and for example topics like risk and return in the

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context of my unit or capital structure for example. What I have seen is that student frequently

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comment about the accessibility of the language because it's written in plain language and they

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appreciate that, you know, it is written in more direct and plain style which made the concepts

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easier to follow compared with the textbook language. You saw that I talked about the analytics,

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you know, of the OERs. The fact that the page views are very high, higher than the visitors,

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number of visitors means that, you know, they are actively navigating through the material rather

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than briefly landing on the page. That's what I would see what the impact of the, impact of the

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OER in general. And that's what basically make it a very important accessible resource.

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LAUREN: Wow. Anything else we can learn from your experience or your story, Sagarika?

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SAGARIKA: What I would say is that the OER project that I did is actually reshape how I think about

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teaching material. With the commercial textbook, you largely adopt your teaching around a fixed

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Structure. Because sometimes you have the pressure, okay, this is the textbook I'm using.

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Students are buying this textbook. So I have to somehow, you know, adjust with the way the

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content is presented in the textbook just to make sure that I don't confuse the student further

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because already the textbook is heavy and they have spent the money. So now I have to

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adjust with how the content is presented in the textbook. And this is to make sure that I do

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not confuse the students even further. But with OER, I can adopt the material around my teaching

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and student needs. That made it particularly interesting that, you know, student engagement

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patterns through the analytics that we see. And we see that repeated access to specific conceptual

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modules. In this case, you know, risk and return is the most visited topic and then capital structure

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is the next. I can see which are the difficult topics or difficult concept that student usually

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struggle with. And when you see the concept that student find difficult, then it actually helps me

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think about what can I do better next year so that it becomes even more easy for them to follow.

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So that's a very important part of this OER because you can actually see in real time

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where they are clicking the most, where they are in which topic they are visiting the most.

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So you know where the pain point is at. LAUREN: Wow, I had not even thought about that.

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That is a huge bonus. My last question for you, Sagarika, before we wrap up,

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do you have a favorite thing about your OER? SAGARIKA: I really like that few of the topics which are very

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densely presented in a book, I could simplify it a lot. And I'm not saying that book should do

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the same thing because it's probably not in their scope to make it easy because they are writing a book.

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They are probably targeting all students together like irrespective of, you know, whether they're

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undergrad or in other degrees or diplomas. But the fact that I can only take the portion that I

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want students to learn at this stage because they have time to learn about it further when they go

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to, when they do a higher degree. Doesn't matter how difficult it is, how difficultly it is presented in

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the book, we could simplify it when we are writing an OER. More importantly, you know, let's risk and

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return. It's a very important concept. Business finance students should learn about, or finance

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students in general, should learn about risk and return. And even general community, if you think

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about it, right, we all know irrespective of whether we are doing finance or not. This is a very

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important concept that everybody should understand. If you simplify it via OER, then we are making sure

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that this important concept is understood by many, many of us. LAUREN: Amazing. Sagarika, I have

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loved this conversation with you. I want to thank you so much for spending this time with me today

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sharing your stories of openness. SAGARIKA: Thank you, thank you Lauren. Thank you very much and I really

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appreciate the opportunity of being part of this podcast. LAUREN: And that's all from us today. Thank you

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very much for listening to stories of openness. Stories of openness is a limited series from the

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Open Education team at Deakin University Library. It's part of a research by podcast project

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led by me, Lauren Halcomb0Smith with Angie Williamson, Danni Johnson and Eddie Pavuna. We choose

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open wherever possible, including Audacity for editing, Castopod for hosting, and music by

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Scott Holmes music. This podcast by Deakin University is licensed under a CC by NC license.

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For more information and full acknowledgements, please see our show notes.

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