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(upbeat music)

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LAUREN: Hello and welcome listeners.

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You are listening to Stories of Openness,

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a limited series podcast created by the Open Education team

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at Deakin University Library.

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My name is Lauren Halcomb-Smith and I'm your host.

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I'm a lecturer of Open Education at Deakin

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and I'm on a mission to explore the impact

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that Open Educational Resources or OER

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are having on learning and teaching at Deakin.

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OER are free textbooks and other learning materials

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that anyone can use, adapt and share

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unlike traditional textbooks

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that are locked behind high costs and copyright restrictions.

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In this series, I'm talking with Deakin academics

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about their experiences of creating

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and using Open Resources.

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This podcast is part of a research project

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that uses podcasting as a research methodology.

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So this conversation is both a podcast

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and open research data.

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I'm coming to you today from the beautiful,

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traditional and unceded lands of the Wiradjuri people.

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I greatly acknowledge them as through traditional custodians

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of these lands, seas and skies.

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And I recognize that this has been a place of learning,

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teaching and rich conversation for millennia.

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My guest today is Daniel Hitch,

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author of Open textbook, Enabling and Optimizing Recovery

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from COVID-19.

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Daniel is an associate professor in Deakin's Faculty of Health

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and has been at Deakin for nearly 20 years.

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She's also been an occupational therapist for 25 years

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and an active researcher in her field for 15 years.

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She has a particular interest in Long COVID,

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which is the topic of her amazing OER,

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published in 2023.

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Enabling and optimizing recovery from COVID-19

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is an invaluable resource focused on the assessment,

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management and support of people experiencing Long COVID.

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Welcome, Danielle.

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DANIELLE: Thanks very much for having me.

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LAUREN: Danielle, is there a story behind the picture of the waves

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on the cover of your book?

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DANIELLE: Yes and no, I think we've looked through

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lots and lots of different pictures.

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It's kind of like choosing a name for your first born

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to be honest, because we wanted to have a really nice picture.

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And we ended on that one, just because it sort of shows

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the space between the ocean and the shore.

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And we felt that it sort of spoke to us

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about, you know, we're in this liminal space

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where we were too sure, still aren't too sure

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about how things work around Long COVID.

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So we chose it for that reason

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and also we just like the colours to be honest.

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LAUREN: It is a beautiful and very eye-catching cover.

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Now, Danielle, tell us, how did you come to create an OER?

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What's the story?

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DANIELLE: Yeah, so I'm in a joint position

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with a public health service in Melbourne.

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The public health service was kind of ground zero

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when COVID broke out in 2020.

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We had a huge number of cases.

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And the position I was working in at that point

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I was actually redeployed back to frontline work

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because the service was under so much stress.

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And then by about September 2020, myself and my allied health colleague

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started seeing people coming back into the service

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with what we now know is Long COVID.

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But at that point, it was really not very understood at all.

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And so we started to treat these people as best we could

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and we started to look into,

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as Long COVID became better known,

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well, what do we need to know about it as health professionals?

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It's a new syndrome, but it's not entirely new.

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There are lots and lots of post-viral syndromes out there

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like ME/CFS and glandular fever,

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which most people get in their teenage years,

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but it does have some distinctive characteristics.

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So we did a little bit more research with allied health professionals

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and essentially what they were telling us

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is we don't know anything much about this at all.

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And we're not sure what to do to this people.

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One of the big catch-22s when it comes to Long COVID

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is something called post-exertional malaise or PEM.

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What happens with PEM is people with Long COVID

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often will exert themselves a little bit

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and we're not talking about a lot.

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It might be getting up and having a shower or something.

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And then they crash and have absolutely no

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energy for extended periods of time.

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So that in itself was something people were really unsure about

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because we want to encourage people to get up and move

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and doing things, but it was making people worse in many cases.

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That's kind of the seed of the OER

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because we knew that we needed to develop

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some workforce capacity building.

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I guess I was attracted to the OER way of doing it

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because yes, you can develop packages of training

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and you can put them behind a paywall

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and you can do all that sort of stuff that it takes too long.

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And I think one of the great things,

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one of the few great things about the COVID pandemic

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was we could get stuff done quickly

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because all the bureaucracy just kind of melted away.

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We didn't have time for all of that.

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So the OER sounded like something

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that could be really responsive and quick

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and something that health professionals wherever they were

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could get into and get some training

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without having to wait for someone to come and deliver it

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or pay money or any of those sorts of things.

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And we also wanted something that was very tailored

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towards allied health particularly.

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So that's occupational therapy, where I come from

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but also physiotherapy, social work, dietetics.

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Because a lot of textbooks in healthcare

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are pitched really at nursing and medicine

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but allied health has a really unique context.

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So we thought we could tailor it to exactly what we needed.

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Because the field changes so quickly as we learn more

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and variants change and all of that sort of stuff

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We were sort of attracted to doing it

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because when you're something we could keep updating

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and we could keep adding to so it'd be like a living document.

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So that's kind of where we got to with it

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and then the scheme came up at Deakin

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to support people to do OERs

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and we jumped at it and that was sort of the start

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of putting it all together.

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LAUREN: Amazing.

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So the real need that you wanted to fill

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was for the allied health professionals

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who didn't have a resource to support them

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in supporting patients experiencing long COVID,

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is that right?

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DANIELLE: Yep, that was probably the main one at that time

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but also thinking about our workforce development

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that we have obviously students in all of these disciplines

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who need to come out of uni

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ready to keep the ground with this, you know,

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additional novel condition

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that most of their textbooks certainly

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wouldn't have any mention of at all.

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So it was at the start, primarily for their clinicians

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and then we also thought about

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well our students need to be upskilled as well.

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LAUREN: Tell me about the resource

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'cause it's really special in a lot of ways.

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DANIELLE: So we thought really hard about how to put it together

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and we needed to have a bit of a traditional structure

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in some ways in terms of having chapters and things

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because that's what people are familiar with.

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So we couldn't go too wild.

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We needed to sort of have something like that

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but we also wanted to embed the international classification

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of function because that's a model

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of understanding health and wellbeing

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that all allied health clinicians know.

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So we started with that structure

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and we needed something like that

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because long COVID is so diverse.

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There are over 200 different symptoms.

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It affects everybody's structure and function.

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So we needed to have, so we initially really thought about

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how do we organize this information

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so people can access it.

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We were also really committed to embedding

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as much as possible lived experience

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because I mean, it is different to a lot of other conditions

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in that if you're a health professional,

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you aren't much higher risk of getting COVID

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simply through exposure in the workplace.

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So a lot of the people we knew, I guess personally,

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who had long COVID, were our colleagues.

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And so we've been having these discussions

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with people we knew sharing their leaked experience

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expertise and we felt really strongly

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that that needed to be embedded in what we have.

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It's one thing for someone who doesn't have a condition

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to tell you what it's about.

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It's something completely different

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when someone who lives with a tells you what it means

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to live with that condition.

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So we started thinking about, well, how could we do this

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because we don't want to burden people with Long COVID,

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you know, writing an OER is hard work

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and we didn't want to make it really difficult for them.

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So we thought of the idea as part of the overall structure

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of having personas.

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So that people didn't have to expose themselves

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or tell their story if they didn't want to.

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We came up with a series of personas.

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So they're basically like case studies, but in more depth,

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which described various types of presentations for long COVID.

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So all of those personas were co-written

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with people with long COVID.

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They gave us all the information

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and we sort of batted it back and forth

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until we got it into a story.

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And then we committed to every chapter being peer reviewed

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by at least two people with Long COVID.

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It's a bit harder to get people with Long COVID

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to write the chapters because they've pitched it,

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health professionals sort of have to be written in a certain way.

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But that's how we sort of made sure that lived experience

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Was, to some degree, part of the OER.

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And then we sort of looked at, well, what information have we got

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from our existing research that we wanted to share?

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So I think one of the really good things about an OER

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is it gives you an alternative format for sharing

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and disseminating, maybe the more practical

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translational stuff that wouldn't go into a journal

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because the journals just want the research evidence.

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So we went back and had a look and we thought, okay,

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well, we need an introductory chapter.

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We need a chapter, basically, saying what is Long COVID.

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There was some colleagues who were working

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with in physiotherapy who'd gotten a little bit of money

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to develop training for physios around Long COVID.

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So they decided to write a chapter

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and so that chapter's there for any physio to look at.

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Not just physios, but it is very physio-oriented.

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And then over time, we've added some other chapters

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as we've gone on.

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We had a chapter about models of care,

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which again came from a research project,

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but the model of care was the actual outcome

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and not something that really can get into an academic journal.

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And we've also updated with a chapter on pacing,

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which is one of the key strategies

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that people with Long COVID use.

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So we haven't yet filled in every part of it.

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There's still gaps in terms of the international classification

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of function structure.

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But over time, we will add new things in.

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So it's become a really good resource for the things

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that we're doing as part of our research that, you know,

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really, we just want to tell people that are practical,

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that people can take guidelines and all sorts of things.

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The OER is a really good place to put that

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so that it's freely available to everybody.

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So we did a lot of writing together.

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I have three other co-editors from the OT department

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and we kind of slogged away at it over.

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I think it was six or eight months

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for the first, getting it up to scratch for it to be released.

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And that's kind of how we worked out it.

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So it wasn't, it was partly organic in terms of, as,

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you know, issues arose or we had information,

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we could add that in.

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So, we had a structure that it wasn't something

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we slavishly sort of followed to complete, you know,

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something that was heating every mark

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'cause we didn't have the time to do that.

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But it'll say things are changing a lot.

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LAUREN: One of the things I love about the book

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from the perspective of someone who is not

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an occupational therapist or a health professional at all,

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and has actually never had COVID,

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is how approachable the book is, you know,

263
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I read the first chapter and I immediately understood

264
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what to expect from the resource.

265
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And it was engaging in a way that traditional textbooks aren't,

266
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in that I could navigate with the click of a button

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to the personas, which captured my attention right away,

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'cause I love stories, and the pictures.

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There's so many pictures and they really bring

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something unique to the book that you don't see

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in a traditional textbook.

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DANIELLE: I, 100% agree.

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I think that's one of the great things about an OER

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that you can really make it engaging.

275
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And I guess part of that was our background

276
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is occupational therapists because we're all about

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participation so that kind of aligns with our professional values.

278
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But also things like Universal Design for Learning.

279
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So we really tried really hard to get those principles in there

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of having information in multiple formats where we could,

281
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you know, using figures and things like that over text

282
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wherever we could.

283
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As part of OER, obviously trying to re-use information

284
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that was out there that we judged to be credible and good quality.

285
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There's a lot of really not-credible poor quality stuff

286
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out there about COVID as I'm sure you’d understand.

287
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But that was really a good way to think about it too

288
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'cause I think oftentimes we want to reinvent the wheel

289
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and just sort of do everything from our perspective.

290
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It was very hard in our case to do that too much

291
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because it was such a new area but where we could

292
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and we saw something I thought that's really great

293
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and we can use it, we definitely put it in there.

294
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So I think thinking from a student's perspective,

295
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it's not just a textbook where you just read, you know,

296
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we try to put some games in there, we put some videos,

297
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we put in all those sorts of things.

298
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And yeah, the personas were by far the most enjoyable thing

299
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to put together if there was a full-time persona writer job.

300
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I would totally take it because it's lovely.

301
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And you know, all of them written together,

302
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I think one of the nicest bits of feedback we got

303
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:14,280
from one of the people we wrote with was, "I feel like I know this person."

304
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So it's a fictitious person, it is based on their lived experience

305
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,560
and other things in the literature that I feel the same

306
00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,120
when I read them, "I feel like this is a person I know."

307
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It was really enjoyable to do.

308
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LAUREN: They are very relatable personas.

309
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There's extra details that you don't think to include

310
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,320
in sort of a textbook case study like where the person lives

311
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,720
and the name of their partner and what they do for hobbies.

312
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It really made the person come to life for me.

313
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Even if those details didn't have as much bearing on them

314
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from a clinical perspective.

315
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DANIELLE: And I think that reflects the OT approach to our case studies

316
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,840
tend to be quite detailed because if we're going to help people

317
00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,760
return to an activity they want to do or role in life or something,

318
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,160
we need to know everything about that person.

319
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So they're not usually as long as the ones in the book,

320
00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,720
but medical case studies often, it's 32-year-old born,

321
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,840
the busted hip, or whatever, and it doesn't give you a lot.

322
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:17,360
But I think that's probably a reflection of the OT foundations

323
00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,440
in terms of we want to know what people's hobbies are.

324
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:22,920
We want to know where they work, we want to know about their pets,

325
00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,480
we want to know everything about that person

326
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because all of that's relevant.

327
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,680
And I think a lot of allied health professions are similar.

328
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,280
All of that's relevant to the way we assess and treat people.

329
00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:38,400
LAUREN: So you mentioned students, is the textbook being used by students now?

330
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:43,320
DANIELLE: It is being used to some degree in the OT course.

331
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,920
So it is what we use to sort of teach our students about Long COVID.

332
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,040
There's also some information there about other post-viral conditions.

333
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,040
So obviously, there's a lot of overlap between them.

334
00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:55,680
So it is being used there.

335
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,480
We have spoken to other courses and said, look, it's here.

336
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,920
You can use it. I'm not aware of anyone picking it up yet, hopefully they do.

337
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:07,440
But we have also used it as a place for students to develop content.

338
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:12,040
So the chapter that I spoke about before about pacing as a strategy,

339
00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,880
that was actually developed primarily by one of our students.

340
00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:20,360
So as part of her capstone unit in fourth year,

341
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:24,920
she, which is called the innovation and evaluation placement,

342
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,080
she developed the vast majority of that chapter

343
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,560
with a little bit of information from me

344
00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:32,840
and from a lived experience expert.

345
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,080
Now we drafted it and we drafted it and then we published it.

346
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,760
Pacing is an intervention that's really widely used.

347
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:40,760
It's something that every OT knows,

348
00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,560
but there is very little information out there.

349
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,080
It's something you just learned in practice, often.

350
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:51,000
So it was one of the first resources available out there about it.

351
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,360
And it was a great thing for her to do as a fourth year,

352
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,800
because obviously she then was leaving

353
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,640
and going into the workplace, you know, really understanding pacing,

354
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,200
which can also be used for conditions like, you know, multiple sclerosis

355
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:08,280
and post-stroke, like it's a very common strategy to use.

356
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,280
So it helped that student,

357
00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,000
and we are looking at other students doing other chapters as well,

358
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,080
to meet the requirements of the course

359
00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,480
around developing an innovation, getting it evaluated.

360
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,360
So that was the peer review by a few people

361
00:17:23,360 --> 00:17:26,000
and yeah, making it available.

362
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,440
LAUREN: I really love this story that you're telling about the fourth year student,

363
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,200
who contributed a chapter to a textbook.

364
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,880
Having witnessed that student's experience,

365
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,280
what do you think the impact was?

366
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:43,080
DANIELLE: I think it really opened him up into how you can share information,

367
00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,960
that it doesn't have to be formal, necessarily.

368
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,640
And I think, you know, the informality of what we are,

369
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:50,960
is one of its greatest strengths,

370
00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,160
that you're still getting high quality information across,

371
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,600
but in a way that's much more accessible,

372
00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,680
I think it really taught her to think about things like,

373
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,320
you know, universal design, how you actually put the information in there,

374
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,600
what sort of tone you need to adopt that's not totally informal,

375
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,720
but doesn't have to be really rigid either.

376
00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,720
I think it really got her thinking about, you know,

377
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,040
working with lived experienced experts,

378
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,720
and especially those little, you know, friction points that you always get,

379
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,080
where you think you know, because you're a health professional,

380
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:23,800
or about to be one in her case.

381
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:25,680
And then the patient comes back and says,

382
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:27,920
"Well, no, that's rubbish, that's not what I do at all."

383
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,800
So it was a really good experience for her of that negotiation of,

384
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:36,280
"Oh, okay, well, maybe leafed experience and professional experience should be equal,

385
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,000
in terms of its validity."

386
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,680
And it really sharpened up her writing skills, I would say,

387
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,680
she became much better at writing and communicating,

388
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,240
and just understood things like copyright, things like that,

389
00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,440
which I think a lot of us don't think about until we're doing OER.

390
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,680
So I know I've learned heaps about copyright by doing this.

391
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,800
LAUREN: I can imagine that a lot of those things that you've just described,

392
00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,800
particularly writing for a generalized audience,

393
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:02,960
and working with people with lived experience,

394
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,600
are really transferable skills to the profession of occupational therapy.

395
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:08,880
DANIELLE: most definitely.

396
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:13,760
And I think you know, getting a bit creative with how you get information out there,

397
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,440
that it doesn't have to just be slabs of text.

398
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,720
I think in there we had some audio recordings,

399
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:21,600
and also, like I was saying before, you know,

400
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,040
that you don't have to be invented, if someone has already done a great job of this,

401
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,840
and there's a nice YouTube video that tells you all about this,

402
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:32,360
use that instead of, you know, writing the same things over and over.

403
00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:35,120
So I think it really increased her skills

404
00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:39,520
with the written communication, that particular skill,

405
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,120
but more broadly, just around communicating to different audiences,

406
00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:48,320
and how to make your communication to the point, super accurate,

407
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,640
but giving people what they actually need.

408
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,360
LAUREN: And you mentioned that it's also being used in the occupational therapy course,

409
00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:57,520
so that's the degree itself.

410
00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,720
How many students would you say are using the resource at the moment

411
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:02,800
in, say, a year or a trimester?

412
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,120
DANIELLE: I guess it would be at one year level.

413
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:08,320
I think it's in second year, I don't quote me on that though.

414
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,480
It's when we're looking at conditions.

415
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:15,840
So in each year of the course, we've got 120-ish students who would be using it,

416
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,360
but of course, once they know it's there, they can always go back to it.

417
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:22,640
We have also looked at taking the personas and using them

418
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,160
for other parts of the course that aren't to do with Long COVID,

419
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,360
because even though that's part of that person's history,

420
00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:33,040
for example, one of the personas we have is a young man with Down syndrome,

421
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,040
and someone else is an older person with post-polio syndrome.

422
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,800
So we can use those personas for other parts of the course,

423
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,880
and I think one of them has been used elsewhere just as a persona.

424
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:46,800
So it's kind of reusing what's in there.

425
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:51,680
We've already got a really good case study in there that can be utilized in another way,

426
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,120
because Long COVID is just one part of that person's persona.

427
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:58,160
LAUREN: And this is a big part of the whole OER thing,

428
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:03,520
is reusing and remixing the content that's been developed already.

429
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:04,480
DANIELLE: Absolutely.

430
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,840
LAUREN: So your occupational therapy students in their second year

431
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,560
are using this as a supplementary resource, is that right?

432
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:11,920
It's not a required text.

433
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,600
DANIELLE: It's not a required text, but I think it's being used in tutorials

434
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,600
or whatever we call tutorials now.

435
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,760
So it would be something that's presented in a class for discussion and use.

436
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:26,000
So it's used in that way, rather than as a reading, for example.

437
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,360
LAUREN: And what sort of stories are you hearing from those teachers

438
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:32,160
or those students about their use of this text?

439
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:33,520
DANIELLE: Hearing back from the teachers,

440
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,320
the couple of times that I know it's been utilized,

441
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,520
it was very positive, and they said similar to what you were saying,

442
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,280
that it is quite accessible.

443
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,920
It brings it to life, in a way.

444
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,200
But it also, even if students aren't going through the entire chapter

445
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,200
or whatever at that time,

446
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,880
they can at least go back to it anytime they want

447
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,440
and they know that those resources are there,

448
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,640
because the chapters are quite detailed, actually.

449
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,360
I've also had some feedback with the physio chapter,

450
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:03,840
so this was outside of Deakin,

451
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,520
but being used in physio, a physio course.

452
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,280
And the feedback was very positive too,

453
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:10,880
and what those students really liked was,

454
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:12,960
it was very profession specific.

455
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,000
So they could look at and say, "Oh, as a physiotherapist,

456
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,280
this is how I would do it."

457
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,520
And it's actually quite difficult when you're in,

458
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,680
I mean, physio is quite a large profession,

459
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,040
but when you're in allied health,

460
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:27,040
to get that really profession specific information

461
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,160
is the sort of stuff that often doesn't get published.

462
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,120
All the feedback so far has been really positive,

463
00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:35,200
and it's being used in a few different ways.

464
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:36,800
And we have sort of said to everyone,

465
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:38,400
use it in whatever way you like.

466
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:39,840
It's out there to be used.

467
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:41,600
We're not the guardians of this.

468
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,480
Just go for it and tell us how you use it,

469
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:45,840
because we'd love to hear.

470
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,400
LAUREN: Are you hearing any stories about the impact

471
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,680
that the OER is having on teaching practice?

472
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,680
DANIELLE: Not so much, to be honest.

473
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,040
I'm not really engaged in the teaching practice as much anymore.

474
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,560
As I say, I think it's been used in workshops

475
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,400
as a resource for discussion, and that sort of thing.

476
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,880
I haven't really heard back about it changing

477
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:08,480
or altering teaching practice.

478
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,120
I mean, I think teaching practices are pretty good

479
00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:12,880
across the board at Deakin, and people know

480
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,280
how to use resources pretty well.

481
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,400
So I'm not sure if it would necessarily have an impact.

482
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,480
It would just be incorporated into what people

483
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,240
have already doing, I would suspect.

484
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,120
LAUREN: Has the experience of going through

485
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:27,440
the open education process,

486
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,400
the program, the journey, has that shaped

487
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,800
or informed the way that you think about teaching?

488
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:34,000
DANIELLE: Yeah, definitely.

489
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,480
I think it's really made me think about

490
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:37,840
how I communicate

491
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,800
what can be quite complex topics

492
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,880
and I've always been sort of an advocate

493
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:44,240
for using plain language.

494
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,720
And, you know, if you really know your topic,

495
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,120
you should be able to explain it to anyone, really.

496
00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:52,720
So I'm a big fan of that, but I think as academics,

497
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,480
we get culturalised into using big fancy words

498
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,000
and things like that.

499
00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,920
So I think OER has been really useful

500
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:03,200
to keeping me back into, okay, it needs to be accessible.

501
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,680
I look for free accessible things as much as possible.

502
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,000
I think one of the things that originally attracted me

503
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,360
to doing an OER was being a first in family,

504
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:17,360
low SES student, all those years ago, in uni.

505
00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:20,000
And the cost of textbooks was something

506
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:21,040
that was just massive.

507
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:22,880
And so I didn't always get all the textbooks

508
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:24,400
and then I got terrible marks

509
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,000
because I didn't have access to the textbooks.

510
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,880
And things are different now, things are online.

511
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,960
But I think that was part of the push in terms of teaching

512
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,840
that if I can give you something on the Internet

513
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,480
that I know you can call up on your phone wherever you are.

514
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:40,560
And that's going to do the job.

515
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,520
Maybe with some supporting information to make it work.

516
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:48,160
Much rather do that than everything has to be out of a textbook.

517
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,720
And textbooks go out of date very quickly

518
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,240
and take a very long time to develop.

519
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,920
So one of the things that has been sort of like the sequel

520
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,360
in some ways to the OER was an actual textbook

521
00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:04,400
about rehabilitation and management for long COVID.

522
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,280
So after we'd sort of got the first version of the textbook out,

523
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:12,160
there was demand, we could see there was demand for it, people were, you know, using it.

524
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:16,320
So we went to a formal publisher, the difference with the textbook,

525
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,160
having learnt what we did from the OER is every chapter is co-written

526
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,600
with someone with lived experience, which as far as we know is unique.

527
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:29,600
So doing the OER and that experience of it really shifted, I think,

528
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,160
the way I've would have written that textbook.

529
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,320
And it's aimed at health professions,

530
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,600
but it's also for students and it's also for consumers to read.

531
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,720
You know, it's freely available and it's not free, but it's available.

532
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:47,680
But it really shaped, I can see how the OER experience shaped how that textbook turned out.

533
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,360
And it is quite a unique textbook.

534
00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:52,960
It's not like many others because it has so much lived experience in it.

535
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,680
It's got lots of boxes in it saying, you know,

536
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,080
stop and think about this or have you thought about that,

537
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,120
which is really harking back to the OER, I think.

538
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:09,200
LAUREN: You've just described how creating an OER informed the way that you wrote a textbook.

539
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,320
And I would say that that is a form of teaching practice.

540
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:13,840
DANIELLE: Yeah, I know 100% agree.

541
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:18,320
I mean, that's all teaching, it's all about giving people the information they need to develop.

542
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,080
And hopefully get them thinking, you know, critical thinking is everything.

543
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:28,320
And so having those boxes throughout the OER and the textbook say, okay, stop for now.

544
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:33,200
You've read these. What do you think about it? How does it actually fit in with what you do?

545
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,840
Whereas traditional textbooks are more here's the information.

546
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,040
And have you remembered all of it? It's not really about that often.

547
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:44,960
LAUREN: And looking beyond Deakin, you mentioned that you've received feedback from colleagues at other

548
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:50,720
universities and in the health sector about the resource. Can you tell us some stories about the

549
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,080
impact it's having beyond learning and teaching at Deakin?

550
00:26:55,120 --> 00:27:00,480
DANIELLE: Yeah, I know a lot of health professionals have tapped into it. So I have a lot of networks in

551
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:05,200
the sort of Long COVID world. And I've always been out telling people this thing is here.

552
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,760
By all means, go ahead and have a look at it. It's been really interesting because it is pitched at

553
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,520
health professionals. But a lot of people with Long COVID have also read it.

554
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:18,640
We did set up a email address for feedback. And it's been interesting. We've only really had a

555
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:24,000
couple of emails through over all this time, having usually quite complimentary, which is really nice.

556
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,560
We did have one person, though, who I guess took a bit of exception to some stuff that was in the

557
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:34,400
Physiotherapy chapter. There's a bit of a controversy there about the use of exercise-based therapies

558
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:41,040
for Long COVID, which I will not get into yet. It's an important debate, though. It was great because

559
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,440
we got that feedback. I could then hand that on to the physios because it's not my area of expertise.

560
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:51,040
And they had a discussion, which I was CCed into. So that was sort of that real sort of having

561
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:57,520
the audience participation, in a way, which you don't get with other resources at all. But I know people

562
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:02,720
have used it, so that's especially that chapter about what is Long COVID. People have used it for

563
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,920
training sessions. Some have used the basis of that for the training session. They've developed,

564
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:13,280
you know, deck of slides from things that are in there. There's people who've done private study.

565
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,440
They've just wanted to know more. And I've said, you should really look at this. I know a couple

566
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,880
of clinicians who don't work in long COVID, but work in the MS. And they've looked at the pacing

567
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,280
chapter and gave me some informal feedback to say that was just useful to get it down because it's

568
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:33,600
stuff we know, but it's not out there anywhere. So lots of informal feedback that's been good. I've

569
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:38,480
had some feedback to around why don't you have a chapter about this, that and the other. So we have

570
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:43,680
got some a little bit of a wish list of things that we know people want, which we’ll work on, I guess,

571
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:50,960
into the future. LAUREN: I'm really struck by the idea of people with long COVID, accessing the resource

572
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:57,520
and finding it meaningful and empowering to them. And that's especially possible with this resource

573
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:03,760
because it is so accessible in both its language and its format. It's really cool.

574
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,840
DANIELLE: And that means a lot to me because I don't have long COVID, but I do live with, you know,

575
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:13,760
chronic conditions and disability. And I know I understand when people with long COVID talk about,

576
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:19,600
they get gaslit by people, you know, it's a controversial field, COVID. So one of the big

577
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:25,920
aims we always had with this would be properly respectful of lived experience and as i say,

578
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:32,880
value at the same as professional experience and just believe people. So one of the nice bits in

579
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:39,040
there is there's a foreword that we wrote together. There's a foreword from a couple of people with

580
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:44,640
lived experience, but also sort of the dedication of the book. You know, we sort of said, we see you,

581
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:49,040
we stand by you, this is for you guys, even though it's pitched to the people who are going to be caring

582
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:55,440
for you. And that was very meaningful for me, but it's like that. LAUREN: That whole tone comes through so

583
00:29:55,440 --> 00:30:01,200
strongly when you read through the first couple of chapters of the book. It's really respectful,

584
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:07,360
it's really beautifully put together and, you know, it really reads as though it has come from the heart.

585
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:15,600
DANIELLE: It definitely has, many hearts. LAUREN: All right. So as you know, Danielle, this is both a podcast episode

586
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:22,960
so that the world can learn your story of your OER, but it is also an interview for research project.

587
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:28,800
So we're going to do a little bit of self, I guess, analysis. I'm curious. You've told us all these

588
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:36,720
stories about your OER. How would you interpret them? Or what do you think your stories tell us

589
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,920
about the impact that OER can have? DANIELLE: I think these leads are nicely from what we were just talking

590
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:47,280
about in terms of that commitment to, you know, lived experience in terms of what it means.

591
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:54,320
The impact really is around have we produced something that is respectful, up-to-date,

592
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:59,760
credible, all of that sort of stuff. That's what it meant for me that I really wanted it to be all

593
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:06,160
of those things. But I think, broadly speaking, with the impact of OERs, I think what it really talks

594
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:12,640
about is that academic publishing and educational publishing is in a really interesting space.

595
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:17,040
You know, we have the journals and we have all the traditional ways of publication, which have been

596
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:22,960
there for 200 years. They don't serve us any more in many ways. So I think, you know, the traditional

597
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:28,000
ways of academic publishing are increasingly not working. So that's why we have things like preprints

598
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:34,720
and stuff like that. And our students, I think, are far more open to accessing information in lots of

599
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,600
different ways. And on the internet and all that sort of stuff, it's not as tightly controlled.

600
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:46,720
So what it means for me is it's one of the ways that we can hopefully change the way we think about

601
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:52,400
academic and educational information, that it's not something that sits in a dusty old book

602
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:59,520
that cost is $400 to buy. And it's not something that only comes from approved experts. It's sort

603
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:05,440
of that democratisation of knowledge. I'm completely on board with that. I think that's a really

604
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:12,000
important aspect. All those different ways of knowing should have a place together. So I think,

605
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:17,040
for me, that's what kind of working on this has meant. It's true, it's sort of the philosophy that I've

606
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:22,720
got generally that information should be out there. We should not be gatekeeping information. It should

607
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:29,760
be available to anyone to do with whatever they wish. And that's how it's had meaning, I think,

608
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:35,120
for us. And also not just me for the other co-editors as well. We did have a lot of discussions around that.

609
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:40,320
There are some previous discussions around that in OT literature anyway, because we work with

610
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,880
people with disability often or people from marginalized communities. So I think we may be

611
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:51,680
bit primed for that. Yeah, that's what I say. I think that's what OERs really do. They kind of

612
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:56,000
formalise stuff that has happened underground for a long time. I mean, I've always shared things

613
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:01,920
freely and, you know, put people in the parts of stuff, just makes it a little bit more accessible

614
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,840
with the Internet and maybe a bit higher quality with the sorts of things you can do on the platforms.

615
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:13,840
LAUREN: It sounds like there's a really strong intersection between the philosophy of occupational therapy

616
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,960
and open education publishing. DANIELLE: 100%. They line up really really well.

617
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:24,800
LAUREN: Are there any other stories or anything else that you would want to say about your OIR?

618
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:30,720
DANIELLE: Like anything, it's not all rainbows and unicorns. It's hard work. And there's a lot of work

619
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:36,640
that goes into OIRs, even ones that are, you know, using other people's information or

620
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:44,240
mixing. You still have to make enough time to, you know, draft, read draft, make sure you're copying

621
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:50,160
or copyright stuff. Correct. So yeah, don't underestimate how long they take. If you're going to do

622
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:55,680
a good job, which I'm presuming people want to do. I wouldn't say it's the downside, but I'd say it's

623
00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:00,320
something that you need to think about because I do just in conversations with people, I think people

624
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,960
think they just grab stuff off the internet, stick it together and stick it online. You can do that

625
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:10,080
that it's not going to be as good as it could be. If I had my time again, I would have involved

626
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:16,880
some students from the start. At that point, it was really more outward looking for clinicians.

627
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:22,080
So there were clinicians involved, but I think if you're developing something for university

628
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:27,120
students, the university students should be a partner in putting it together because they absolutely

629
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:33,360
can assist with things like content, peer review. They'll probably know some, you know, resources

630
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:38,160
that you may not know about, that they've found themselves. So it should always be done in partnership.

631
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:45,040
LAUREN: Amazing. Danielle, my last question, just for fun. Do you have a favourite part of the OER?

632
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:52,160
DANIELLE: Is it the book we've written? Do you? LAUREN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. DANIELLE: Oh, the personas, the personas are my favourite.

633
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,960
LAUREN: Do you have a favourite persona? DANIELLE: Oh, I can't remember the name. I think it's the young

634
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:02,720
gentleman with Down syndrome, I think is my favourite. People with disability and older people often

635
00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:07,840
get overlooked in terms of Long COVID, because it's just passed off oh, they're getting older,

636
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,920
or it's a result of their intellectual disability or something like that. That was actually the first

637
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:18,240
persona we developed, and it was because of discussions we'd been having as clinicians that we're

638
00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:24,320
missing Long COVID in lots of different populations, because people think it's, and the way the

639
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:30,480
World Health Organization defined it at that time, it was a diagnosis you got if there was no other

640
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,040
diagnosis available that could explain your symptom, which kind of skewed it towards young,

641
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:40,400
previously healthy people. So I'm particularly fond of that one, because A) it was the first one we

642
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:46,240
developed, but also something that served a very particular purpose that I think aligns with those

643
00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:53,440
values you were just talking about. LAUREN: Amazing. I love it. Danielle, thank you so much for being a part

644
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:59,680
of this conversation today. That's it. We're done. DANIELLE: Great. Thanks for the opportunity. LAUREN: Yeah, you're welcome.

645
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:06,560
Thank you so much. Stories of Openness is a limited series from the Open Education team at Deakin

646
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:12,720
University Library. It's part of a research by podcast project led by me, Lauren Halcomb-Smith,

647
00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:18,480
with Angie Williamson, Danni Johnson, and Eddie Pavuno. We choose Open whenever possible,

648
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:23,840
including Audacity for Editing, Castopod for dosting, and Music by Scott Holmes Music.

649
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:29,360
This podcast by Deakin University is licensed under a CC by NC License. For

650
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:33,840
more information and full acknowledgements, please see our show notes. Thank you for listening.

651
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,800
Thank you, Danielle.

652
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,168
[BLANK_AUDIO]