1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,580 (upbeat music) 2 00:00:02,580 --> 00:00:09,520 LAUREN: Hello and welcome to Stories of Openness, 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,700 a limited series podcast created by the Open Education team 4 00:00:12,700 --> 00:00:14,300 at Deakin University Library. 5 00:00:14,300 --> 00:00:16,820 My name is Lauren Halcomb-Smith, and I'm your host. 6 00:00:16,820 --> 00:00:19,340 I'm a lecturer of Open Education at Deakin, 7 00:00:19,340 --> 00:00:21,620 and I'm on a mission to learn about the impact 8 00:00:21,620 --> 00:00:24,540 that open educational resources, or OER, 9 00:00:24,540 --> 00:00:27,180 are having on learning and teaching at Deakin. 10 00:00:27,180 --> 00:00:29,980 OER are free textbooks and other learning materials 11 00:00:29,980 --> 00:00:32,740 that anyone can use, adapt, and share, 12 00:00:32,740 --> 00:00:34,460 which is unlike traditional textbooks 13 00:00:34,460 --> 00:00:36,940 that can be expensive and limited by copyright 14 00:00:36,940 --> 00:00:38,540 and licensing restrictions. 15 00:00:38,540 --> 00:00:40,900 In this series, I'm talking with Deakin academics 16 00:00:40,900 --> 00:00:43,140 as they share their stories of creating 17 00:00:43,140 --> 00:00:45,060 and using open resources. 18 00:00:45,060 --> 00:00:47,340 This podcast is part of a research project 19 00:00:47,340 --> 00:00:50,260 that uses podcasting as a research methodology. 20 00:00:50,260 --> 00:00:52,860 So this conversation is both a podcast 21 00:00:52,860 --> 00:00:54,420 and open research data. 22 00:00:54,420 --> 00:00:56,460 I'm coming to today from the beautiful 23 00:00:56,460 --> 00:00:58,740 and unseated lands of the Wurundjeri people. 24 00:00:58,740 --> 00:01:01,620 I gratefully acknowledge them as the traditional custodians 25 00:01:01,620 --> 00:01:03,700 of these lands, seas, and skies, 26 00:01:03,700 --> 00:01:06,060 and recognise that this has been a place of learning, 27 00:01:06,060 --> 00:01:09,060 teaching, and rich conversation for millennia. 28 00:01:09,060 --> 00:01:12,660 My guest today is Tom Keel from the Department of Finance 29 00:01:12,660 --> 00:01:14,180 in the Deakin Business School. 30 00:01:14,180 --> 00:01:17,500 Tom's area of expertise is property and real estate, 31 00:01:17,500 --> 00:01:20,300 and he has a particular interest in urban development, 32 00:01:20,300 --> 00:01:23,100 sustainable construction, and city livability. 33 00:01:23,100 --> 00:01:27,140 Tom is also an OER creator of one of our most recently 34 00:01:27,140 --> 00:01:30,660 published OER, the business case for sustainability 35 00:01:30,660 --> 00:01:32,140 in property development. 36 00:01:32,140 --> 00:01:34,460 And this OER is particularly unique 37 00:01:34,460 --> 00:01:36,060 because it is not an e-book, 38 00:01:36,060 --> 00:01:39,460 but rather an incredibly detailed database 39 00:01:39,460 --> 00:01:40,860 of business cases. 40 00:01:40,860 --> 00:01:42,420 Each business case in the database 41 00:01:42,420 --> 00:01:46,180 presents the financial returns of sustainability investments 42 00:01:46,180 --> 00:01:47,700 in a real estate project. 43 00:01:47,700 --> 00:01:49,380 It's very cool, and I have been looking 44 00:01:49,380 --> 00:01:51,260 forward to this conversation to learn more. 45 00:01:51,260 --> 00:01:52,140 Welcome Tom. 46 00:01:52,140 --> 00:01:52,860 TOM: Thank you. 47 00:01:52,860 --> 00:01:53,860 Thank you for having me, Lauren. 48 00:01:53,860 --> 00:01:55,860 LAUREN: Thanks for coming on the show today. 49 00:01:55,860 --> 00:01:57,180 My first question. 50 00:01:57,180 --> 00:01:59,020 Can you please tell me the whole story 51 00:01:59,020 --> 00:02:00,860 of how you came to create this OER? 52 00:02:00,860 --> 00:02:01,460 TOM: Excellent. 53 00:02:01,460 --> 00:02:04,260 The OER for the Business Case for Sustainability 54 00:02:04,260 --> 00:02:07,100 in Property Development came about through a frustration 55 00:02:07,100 --> 00:02:09,220 we were experiencing in our teachings. 56 00:02:09,220 --> 00:02:12,300 And that was a constant barrier to people 57 00:02:12,300 --> 00:02:15,260 getting past the preconception or the misconception 58 00:02:15,260 --> 00:02:17,900 that you couldn't make money as a property developer 59 00:02:17,900 --> 00:02:20,540 and also be sustainable in what you were doing. 60 00:02:20,540 --> 00:02:22,780 In other words, they were building thinking that 61 00:02:22,780 --> 00:02:25,580 to get their sales and that as up as they could 62 00:02:25,580 --> 00:02:28,820 and to maximise their margins, they needed to skip 63 00:02:28,820 --> 00:02:31,500 sustainable initiatives and features in their properties 64 00:02:31,500 --> 00:02:35,420 and really just always focus on lowering cost, cost of build. 65 00:02:35,420 --> 00:02:38,860 We knew that wasn't the case, but we struggled a lot 66 00:02:38,860 --> 00:02:42,540 to convince the general person, particularly our students, 67 00:02:42,540 --> 00:02:44,420 who had adopted that line of thinking 68 00:02:44,420 --> 00:02:46,140 from their parents or from the media 69 00:02:46,140 --> 00:02:49,140 or from wherever they happened to get it. 70 00:02:49,140 --> 00:02:51,740 We did ask them in their assignments, our students, 71 00:02:51,740 --> 00:02:54,620 to do this, to try and override their misconceptions 72 00:02:54,620 --> 00:02:57,260 and prove it to themselves, but they really struggled 73 00:02:57,260 --> 00:02:59,500 because they couldn't understand the math 74 00:02:59,500 --> 00:03:02,380 when it came into focus and they still just couldn't 75 00:03:02,380 --> 00:03:03,980 get past their own prejudice. 76 00:03:03,980 --> 00:03:06,740 So when the OER came along, it came as an email 77 00:03:06,740 --> 00:03:09,380 and it was like a nice, happy surprise on the day 78 00:03:09,380 --> 00:03:12,140 because it said, "Here's an opportunity to consolidate 79 00:03:12,140 --> 00:03:14,380 something you're working on into a format 80 00:03:14,380 --> 00:03:16,820 which will go out to the whole sector, 81 00:03:16,820 --> 00:03:18,500 the property sector will end beyond." 82 00:03:18,500 --> 00:03:20,980 And of course, there was money involved as well, 83 00:03:20,980 --> 00:03:22,860 which was nice because whilst we were busy, 84 00:03:22,860 --> 00:03:25,340 we thought that gives us a chance to get a research 85 00:03:25,340 --> 00:03:26,460 assistant in as well. 86 00:03:26,460 --> 00:03:28,340 So a very appealing email. 87 00:03:28,340 --> 00:03:30,700 And it helped to consolidate our thoughts 88 00:03:30,700 --> 00:03:32,300 that we were having at the time about 89 00:03:32,300 --> 00:03:33,860 how are we going to break through this barrier 90 00:03:33,860 --> 00:03:36,300 and get the students to understand this concept 91 00:03:36,300 --> 00:03:38,100 and hopefully take it into the workplace 92 00:03:38,100 --> 00:03:40,780 when they leave university and start to convince their colleagues, 93 00:03:40,780 --> 00:03:43,780 yes, you can be green and make money at the same time. 94 00:03:43,780 --> 00:03:46,500 LAUREN: - How did you go about creating the database? 95 00:03:46,500 --> 00:03:48,060 TOM: - Well, the database came about. 96 00:03:48,060 --> 00:03:50,140 It was created because we understand 97 00:03:50,140 --> 00:03:51,820 that the property development market, 98 00:03:51,820 --> 00:03:54,220 they're not that much into academic theory. 99 00:03:54,220 --> 00:03:57,980 Their hard, you know, formed ideas come from the reality 100 00:03:57,980 --> 00:04:01,180 of doing projects and looking at how much money they made. 101 00:04:01,180 --> 00:04:03,540 And they weren't that interested in hearing about the theory 102 00:04:03,540 --> 00:04:05,420 because in many of their minds, 103 00:04:05,420 --> 00:04:07,860 they thought the sustainable part of their market 104 00:04:07,860 --> 00:04:09,580 where people were doing sustainable things 105 00:04:09,580 --> 00:04:11,980 was either the very high end, the exclusive end 106 00:04:11,980 --> 00:04:13,540 as we see on some TV shows, 107 00:04:13,540 --> 00:04:16,700 which promote individual unique architectural design. 108 00:04:16,700 --> 00:04:17,740 Well, they just didn't believe it. 109 00:04:17,740 --> 00:04:21,060 And then, so we thought we need to present them case studies 110 00:04:21,060 --> 00:04:23,340 and say, look what the guy down the road did, basically. 111 00:04:23,340 --> 00:04:25,460 And so he made money, therefore you can make money. 112 00:04:25,460 --> 00:04:28,100 So the way to do that was to start investigating 113 00:04:28,100 --> 00:04:32,020 what had been published before and then compile case studies. 114 00:04:32,020 --> 00:04:35,340 They proved extremely difficult to find 115 00:04:35,340 --> 00:04:38,140 because developers either weren't doing case studies 116 00:04:38,140 --> 00:04:40,100 or they were doing them successfully 117 00:04:40,100 --> 00:04:43,260 and using it as a competitive advantage over their competitors. 118 00:04:43,260 --> 00:04:45,300 I say, well, why would I tell my competing, you know, 119 00:04:45,300 --> 00:04:47,220 develop it down the road, how to make more money? 120 00:04:47,220 --> 00:04:48,740 So they were holding onto it 121 00:04:48,740 --> 00:04:53,100 and we really had to dig deep and search why 122 00:04:53,100 --> 00:04:55,780 just to start building this case of evidence. 123 00:04:55,780 --> 00:04:58,740 And as we found one, then it would have a reference 124 00:04:58,740 --> 00:05:00,900 in it often and then we would click on that reference 125 00:05:00,900 --> 00:05:02,260 and that would take us to another one. 126 00:05:02,260 --> 00:05:04,700 And so we started to find our way through. 127 00:05:04,700 --> 00:05:07,420 We also got connected to a lot of interesting groups 128 00:05:07,420 --> 00:05:09,700 along the way, groups of developers who joined 129 00:05:09,700 --> 00:05:12,020 like as a collective and said, let's teach each other. 130 00:05:12,020 --> 00:05:14,060 So they were very helpful. 131 00:05:14,060 --> 00:05:16,580 The councils themselves have something 132 00:05:16,580 --> 00:05:19,740 they call BESS, which is a collective 133 00:05:19,740 --> 00:05:22,340 where they've got together and said, let's teach each other 134 00:05:22,340 --> 00:05:23,540 and let's talk to the developers 135 00:05:23,540 --> 00:05:24,940 at planning application time. 136 00:05:24,940 --> 00:05:28,260 So bit by bit, we're able to harness information 137 00:05:28,260 --> 00:05:31,180 and it fed nicely into the whole OER concept 138 00:05:31,180 --> 00:05:34,660 of being open, being an educational resource. 139 00:05:34,660 --> 00:05:37,660 And we thought, not only can we now put our findings out there, 140 00:05:37,660 --> 00:05:40,620 but we can also provide a template to the developers 141 00:05:40,620 --> 00:05:43,140 and say, if you've got a case, please let us know. 142 00:05:43,140 --> 00:05:45,220 And once we're published, we hopefully 143 00:05:45,220 --> 00:05:48,260 get a lot of those cases coming in as well. 144 00:05:48,260 --> 00:05:49,380 LAUREN: What does it actually look like? 145 00:05:49,380 --> 00:05:51,060 How many cases do you have? 146 00:05:51,060 --> 00:05:53,340 What's the sort of experience that students are having 147 00:05:53,340 --> 00:05:54,940 when they go into the database? 148 00:05:54,940 --> 00:05:57,500 TOM: Well, interestingly, we started off with the students' own work. 149 00:05:57,500 --> 00:06:00,140 So we went through the previous years 150 00:06:00,140 --> 00:06:02,300 where we'd been talking to the students about this. 151 00:06:02,300 --> 00:06:05,420 Did our search selection for all the high distinction students 152 00:06:05,420 --> 00:06:08,740 work and then took their case studies, verified them 153 00:06:08,740 --> 00:06:10,460 with their own math and formula, 154 00:06:10,460 --> 00:06:12,020 and then actually started with theirs 155 00:06:12,020 --> 00:06:15,340 and say, he's 10 students who did retrofits on their homes, 156 00:06:15,340 --> 00:06:18,660 not new builds, but retrofits of their existing homes. 157 00:06:18,660 --> 00:06:20,620 How could they make them more sustainable? 158 00:06:20,620 --> 00:06:22,860 And it was to do with similar things that developers do 159 00:06:22,860 --> 00:06:24,820 with particularly solar panels and batteries 160 00:06:24,820 --> 00:06:26,020 was the easy starting point. 161 00:06:26,020 --> 00:06:28,540 And it became design materials, different things. 162 00:06:28,540 --> 00:06:32,020 And we started with theirs, gave us a bit of a starting point. 163 00:06:32,020 --> 00:06:34,500 I suppose, of saying, what are people showing interest in? 164 00:06:34,500 --> 00:06:36,540 And then we just evolved from there. 165 00:06:36,540 --> 00:06:38,420 And then the earlier that we ended up creating 166 00:06:38,420 --> 00:06:40,900 was primarily an Excel document, 167 00:06:40,900 --> 00:06:44,540 which comes with a PowerPoint that says this is the history, 168 00:06:44,540 --> 00:06:46,540 this is what it does, this is how to use it, 169 00:06:46,540 --> 00:06:50,300 and a video, which is the same saying, how to use it. 170 00:06:50,300 --> 00:06:53,260 The resource itself is an Excel document. 171 00:06:53,260 --> 00:06:55,060 And it's just got the different sheets in it 172 00:06:55,060 --> 00:06:58,220 where we've done an all-over sustainable grouping. 173 00:06:58,220 --> 00:07:00,660 And then we've done individual-like energy efficiency, 174 00:07:00,660 --> 00:07:02,540 design, procurement, different aspects 175 00:07:02,540 --> 00:07:05,180 that a developer could narrow down their focus on. 176 00:07:05,180 --> 00:07:09,020 When we have all that data, it then goes into just one formula, 177 00:07:09,020 --> 00:07:12,500 very simple formula, which is, on the cover page, it says, 178 00:07:12,500 --> 00:07:15,420 and it's a live document, so developers can also use it. 179 00:07:15,420 --> 00:07:19,140 It says, how much extra do you spend for your green initiative? 180 00:07:19,140 --> 00:07:22,340 And then how much did you gain from your green initiative? 181 00:07:22,340 --> 00:07:23,660 And we're trying to give them examples. 182 00:07:23,660 --> 00:07:27,260 We say, if you follow the National Construction Code guideline 183 00:07:27,260 --> 00:07:29,100 for windows, your new development, 184 00:07:29,100 --> 00:07:32,380 and you just do the minimum, you're put in single glazing, 185 00:07:32,380 --> 00:07:34,380 and it would cost you this amount of dollars. 186 00:07:34,380 --> 00:07:37,900 So if you then say, I would like to be greener, more sustainable, 187 00:07:37,900 --> 00:07:39,540 and you choose double glazing, 188 00:07:39,540 --> 00:07:42,060 you would look at the difference that you spent on windows, 189 00:07:42,060 --> 00:07:44,620 not the cost of the window, but the difference between double 190 00:07:44,620 --> 00:07:48,340 and single glazing, so I spent as a developer this much more. 191 00:07:48,340 --> 00:07:51,300 And then you say, and how much more did I gain from doing that? 192 00:07:51,300 --> 00:07:53,300 So what you would then do, for example, is say, 193 00:07:53,300 --> 00:07:56,300 if you're a developer in a housing estate of display homes, 194 00:07:56,300 --> 00:07:58,780 someone who's a buyer would walk through 10 display homes 195 00:07:58,780 --> 00:08:01,780 that would guarantee yours, yours is the most comfortable, 196 00:08:01,780 --> 00:08:04,340 because of the double glazing, they say, this feels nice. 197 00:08:04,340 --> 00:08:06,060 Then you would also say to them, by the way, 198 00:08:06,060 --> 00:08:07,540 you're not going to have energy bills, 199 00:08:07,540 --> 00:08:09,300 like you’re used to, they’re going to be much less, 200 00:08:09,300 --> 00:08:12,820 the buyer would then pay more for that housing from your competitors. 201 00:08:12,820 --> 00:08:14,900 And you just do the math thing, I spent this much more 202 00:08:14,900 --> 00:08:15,980 and I got this much more. 203 00:08:15,980 --> 00:08:19,180 And that's the essence of it, so it's quite a simple formula. 204 00:08:19,180 --> 00:08:22,420 And we just turn that into an ROI figure, return on investment. 205 00:08:22,420 --> 00:08:24,580 So we then went through all the categories, 206 00:08:24,580 --> 00:08:28,460 put it all into one formula, and we got AI to scan the whole lot 207 00:08:28,460 --> 00:08:30,780 and do a lot of the math for us as well, 208 00:08:30,780 --> 00:08:33,460 because it's something that AI is particularly good at, yeah. 209 00:08:33,460 --> 00:08:36,460 So it came up and said 18%, I thought, okay, 18%, 210 00:08:36,460 --> 00:08:38,980 it's a very nice return on investment for anybody. 211 00:08:38,980 --> 00:08:42,860 So then we spent a few days with AI taking out the outliers, 212 00:08:42,860 --> 00:08:45,340 you know, the extremely positive or negative results, 213 00:08:45,340 --> 00:08:47,500 whatever was not close to the norm, 214 00:08:47,500 --> 00:08:49,780 and it gave weightings as well, it said, okay, 215 00:08:49,780 --> 00:08:51,060 that's a really nice initiative 216 00:08:51,060 --> 00:08:54,380 and it gave a great return, but people aren't likely to do that. 217 00:08:54,380 --> 00:08:56,900 And so I put more weight on the ones that developers 218 00:08:56,900 --> 00:09:00,380 in Australia, very likely to do the common industry ones. 219 00:09:00,380 --> 00:09:03,340 And I thought, I think that after it averaged them out, 220 00:09:03,340 --> 00:09:05,420 it weighted them, it took out the outliers, 221 00:09:05,420 --> 00:09:06,980 the figure was really quite accurate. 222 00:09:06,980 --> 00:09:10,020 So we were then confident to go to the developers and say, 223 00:09:10,020 --> 00:09:13,340 here's a percentage figure, I'm sure you'll find it a surprise, 224 00:09:13,340 --> 00:09:16,460 'cause anything over 5% in this world is already good 225 00:09:16,460 --> 00:09:18,340 and the figure above 10% it's amazing. 226 00:09:18,340 --> 00:09:20,100 So we thought that would be skeptical, 227 00:09:20,100 --> 00:09:22,620 but we just said here's a figure, it's based on this. 228 00:09:22,620 --> 00:09:24,660 You're welcome to challenge it, please challenge it. 229 00:09:24,660 --> 00:09:27,260 You know, anything you tell us about it would be very then, 230 00:09:27,260 --> 00:09:28,100 and we've left it at that. 231 00:09:28,100 --> 00:09:29,660 So if I know one's challenged it, 232 00:09:29,660 --> 00:09:32,300 we're hoping that the world will spread like wildfire 233 00:09:32,300 --> 00:09:34,500 through the industry and they'll all jump on and do it. 234 00:09:34,500 --> 00:09:35,660 One of the things to notice, 235 00:09:35,660 --> 00:09:38,420 some of the case studies we collected came from 236 00:09:38,420 --> 00:09:41,140 the very largest and most successful builder, 237 00:09:41,140 --> 00:09:42,860 developers of housing. 238 00:09:42,860 --> 00:09:46,020 And that also gave us great confidence in the data, 239 00:09:46,020 --> 00:09:48,300 because if you're a smaller developer 240 00:09:48,300 --> 00:09:49,940 and you're working in isolation, 241 00:09:49,940 --> 00:09:52,060 doing what you do, you don't have that many contacts, 242 00:09:52,060 --> 00:09:55,020 'cause you work with a few people, not 100 people. 243 00:09:55,020 --> 00:09:58,140 It's nice to look out and see this very, very large, 244 00:09:58,140 --> 00:10:00,700 successful developer has done case studies 245 00:10:00,700 --> 00:10:02,540 that have been very successful 246 00:10:02,540 --> 00:10:04,660 and that I think gives great validation to it. 247 00:10:04,660 --> 00:10:06,660 And it breaks down that original thought 248 00:10:06,660 --> 00:10:08,580 that they have to be a bespoke, 249 00:10:08,580 --> 00:10:11,220 architecturally led green-y type of thing to get it. 250 00:10:11,220 --> 00:10:12,940 If you look at the top-top ones 251 00:10:12,940 --> 00:10:15,140 for both apartments and housing in Australia, 252 00:10:15,140 --> 00:10:16,780 they're the ones that have been trailing it 253 00:10:16,780 --> 00:10:18,860 and they're the ones that have been publishing their results, 254 00:10:18,860 --> 00:10:21,500 'cause they're public companies in their interest to do so. 255 00:10:21,500 --> 00:10:24,140 So we think that's been very helpful. 256 00:10:24,140 --> 00:10:27,060 LAUREN: Let's talk a little bit about the learners. 257 00:10:27,060 --> 00:10:30,420 in the unit that this database is being used for. 258 00:10:30,420 --> 00:10:33,180 What is the program, what's the level? 259 00:10:33,180 --> 00:10:36,140 TOM: So where we've implemented it is in third year 260 00:10:36,140 --> 00:10:38,100 of our property and real estate degree 261 00:10:38,100 --> 00:10:41,020 and it's in the unit called Advanced Property Development. 262 00:10:41,020 --> 00:10:42,220 So it's very applicable. 263 00:10:42,220 --> 00:10:44,220 So in first year, the students are introduced 264 00:10:44,220 --> 00:10:46,620 to the concept of sustainability and housing 265 00:10:46,620 --> 00:10:48,020 and they learn things like buildings 266 00:10:48,020 --> 00:10:50,580 are the biggest contributor of harmful emissions 267 00:10:50,580 --> 00:10:52,340 of all industries, so they know that. 268 00:10:52,340 --> 00:10:53,660 And then in the second year, 269 00:10:53,660 --> 00:10:56,820 they do a unit called Sustainable Property Construction 270 00:10:56,820 --> 00:10:59,700 and they learn how to build typical Australian homes 271 00:10:59,700 --> 00:11:01,220 in a more sustainable way. 272 00:11:01,220 --> 00:11:04,340 And that's via a better design, material choices 273 00:11:04,340 --> 00:11:05,980 and focus on energy efficiency. 274 00:11:05,980 --> 00:11:07,700 So then when they get to third year, 275 00:11:07,700 --> 00:11:09,980 they're familiar with why we have to be green, 276 00:11:09,980 --> 00:11:13,100 they know how to do it and then they need to crunch the maths, 277 00:11:13,100 --> 00:11:14,820 'cause when they're going to the workplace 278 00:11:14,820 --> 00:11:17,260 and they say to someone, let's do a sustainable thing, 279 00:11:17,260 --> 00:11:20,380 invariably someone will say, no, it's too expensive 280 00:11:20,380 --> 00:11:21,380 or we can't do it. 281 00:11:21,380 --> 00:11:24,020 So they'll be able to then say, actually, you're wrong. 282 00:11:24,020 --> 00:11:27,580 At least it does make you more money and he's the evidence for it. 283 00:11:27,580 --> 00:11:30,260 So the third-year students still struggled with it 284 00:11:30,260 --> 00:11:32,900 because some of the concepts are quite difficult 285 00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:34,220 to put into figures. 286 00:11:34,220 --> 00:11:36,740 For example, if you orientate a house 287 00:11:36,740 --> 00:11:39,140 towards the northern sun and you make a decision 288 00:11:39,140 --> 00:11:41,860 to put the living room of all your homes facing the north, 289 00:11:41,860 --> 00:11:45,300 so they get the winter sun and warm and light the house for free. 290 00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:46,140 How do you cost that? 291 00:11:46,140 --> 00:11:47,820 That's very where it's quite difficult. 292 00:11:47,820 --> 00:11:50,420 How do you put a figure on what the orientation costs? 293 00:11:50,420 --> 00:11:51,420 I mean, it's often at zero. 294 00:11:51,420 --> 00:11:53,140 You're just facing the house a certain way 295 00:11:53,140 --> 00:11:55,180 and how do you put a figure on the upbringing? 296 00:11:55,180 --> 00:11:56,820 So the students would stall at that 297 00:11:56,820 --> 00:11:58,780 and then just go, I'm just going to do solar panels. 298 00:11:58,780 --> 00:12:00,820 And they'd always just err on the solar panel side 299 00:12:00,820 --> 00:12:02,580 'cause it was easy, buy it for this much 300 00:12:02,580 --> 00:12:04,300 and the energy boom goes down that much. 301 00:12:04,300 --> 00:12:06,100 So it was a challenge to them 302 00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:08,700 and they often struggled overall with math 303 00:12:08,700 --> 00:12:10,620 because I just, for some reason, 304 00:12:10,620 --> 00:12:12,220 the grounding in math by year three 305 00:12:12,220 --> 00:12:14,580 hadn't wasn't as strong as it could have been. 306 00:12:14,580 --> 00:12:16,460 And they always just tried to guess 307 00:12:16,460 --> 00:12:19,340 rather than really find a data like they'd miss a part 308 00:12:19,340 --> 00:12:21,540 of the formula that either make assumptions 309 00:12:21,540 --> 00:12:23,700 or just not follow through. 310 00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:25,300 We had started saying them, you know, 311 00:12:25,300 --> 00:12:27,140 pick five things and do the business case. 312 00:12:27,140 --> 00:12:28,540 And of course, that was way too hard. 313 00:12:28,540 --> 00:12:29,940 So then we narrowed it down and said, 314 00:12:29,940 --> 00:12:31,860 let's just do one case really well. 315 00:12:31,860 --> 00:12:34,660 Pick one initiative and make sure you get it absolutely right. 316 00:12:34,660 --> 00:12:37,180 So we've had to sort of fine tune them along the way 317 00:12:37,180 --> 00:12:39,300 to help them have a level of success at the end. 318 00:12:39,300 --> 00:12:41,980 So rather than do five and then be told by the marker, 319 00:12:41,980 --> 00:12:43,980 oh, you missed some numbers or you could have done, 320 00:12:43,980 --> 00:12:45,260 you know, better than, you know, 321 00:12:45,260 --> 00:12:46,580 they do one really well and they say, 322 00:12:46,580 --> 00:12:48,740 well done, you've actually proven the point 323 00:12:48,740 --> 00:12:51,700 and your project now has been more successful 324 00:12:51,700 --> 00:12:52,620 as a result of that. 325 00:12:52,620 --> 00:12:54,580 So that's where we're at with the learners 326 00:12:54,580 --> 00:12:57,220 and we've only got there in the last year or two 327 00:12:57,220 --> 00:12:59,820 with the narrowed focus, the more correct focus. 328 00:12:59,820 --> 00:13:03,020 So we're interested to see this year how they proceed with it again. 329 00:13:03,020 --> 00:13:05,620 LAUREN: Have they been using the database at all 330 00:13:05,620 --> 00:13:07,540 in the last period of time? 331 00:13:07,540 --> 00:13:09,900 TOM: The database has only been available to them this year 332 00:13:09,900 --> 00:13:12,660 for the first time because with the open education resource 333 00:13:12,660 --> 00:13:14,420 we're able to get the research assistant 334 00:13:14,420 --> 00:13:16,460 to really put into a usable format. 335 00:13:16,460 --> 00:13:18,940 And so yeah, this year is actually the first time 336 00:13:18,940 --> 00:13:21,420 they won't have to start just from a lecture class. 337 00:13:21,420 --> 00:13:23,540 No, they'll actually be able to log in 338 00:13:23,540 --> 00:13:25,460 and say he's a full resource, 339 00:13:25,460 --> 00:13:27,780 scan through, see what the initiatives are, 340 00:13:27,780 --> 00:13:29,900 match their initiative that they're trying to do 341 00:13:29,900 --> 00:13:33,300 to what they've found and that will give them a really good step up. 342 00:13:33,300 --> 00:13:35,300 Like if, for example, if they're doing apartments, 343 00:13:35,300 --> 00:13:37,860 they can go in and see what the big apartment people didn't. 344 00:13:37,860 --> 00:13:39,020 So I'll do that initiative. 345 00:13:39,020 --> 00:13:40,380 I can see what they got. 346 00:13:40,380 --> 00:13:43,140 I'll just try and now compare my figures to those. 347 00:13:43,140 --> 00:13:45,140 LAUREN: And are you noticing a discernible difference 348 00:13:45,140 --> 00:13:47,900 between the students who have access to this new database 349 00:13:47,900 --> 00:13:49,300 and those who didn't? 350 00:13:49,300 --> 00:13:52,300 TOM: Yes, it's been very interesting because it was week two 351 00:13:52,300 --> 00:13:54,820 of the unit where we said, and by the way, 352 00:13:54,820 --> 00:13:57,180 this is the unit where you do this business case. 353 00:13:57,180 --> 00:13:58,860 And there was quite a lot of enquiries 354 00:13:58,860 --> 00:14:00,860 about when can we have the link to the resource. 355 00:14:00,860 --> 00:14:03,220 So they've actually that heard a description of it 356 00:14:03,220 --> 00:14:04,820 and they were keen to go and find it. 357 00:14:04,820 --> 00:14:07,620 So it meant for the first time they had a resource 358 00:14:07,620 --> 00:14:09,580 and they could actually delve straight into it 359 00:14:09,580 --> 00:14:11,740 when they needed it at the start of their assignment. 360 00:14:11,740 --> 00:14:13,620 And I think they'll be very helpful for them. 361 00:14:13,620 --> 00:14:16,100 LAUREN: So they're still at the time of this interview. 362 00:14:16,100 --> 00:14:17,700 The students are still working through 363 00:14:17,700 --> 00:14:20,260 that first cohort of students with access to the resource 364 00:14:20,260 --> 00:14:22,860 are still in the middle of doing their assignments. 365 00:14:22,860 --> 00:14:24,540 There's enthusiasm for the resource, 366 00:14:24,540 --> 00:14:27,140 but you haven't yet seen sort of the difference 367 00:14:27,140 --> 00:14:28,620 in assessment outcomes. 368 00:14:28,620 --> 00:14:30,260 TOM: That's right, because as it happens, 369 00:14:30,260 --> 00:14:31,900 week two is when we told them about it. 370 00:14:31,900 --> 00:14:33,580 We're in week four now, and in week six, 371 00:14:33,580 --> 00:14:34,500 they're assignment’s due. 372 00:14:34,500 --> 00:14:36,380 So we're just a few weeks away from seeing 373 00:14:36,380 --> 00:14:39,140 how well they adapt to it and have utilised it. 374 00:14:39,140 --> 00:14:42,180 LAUREN: It sounds like one of the really beneficial aspects 375 00:14:42,180 --> 00:14:44,820 of the resource is that a lot of this information 376 00:14:44,820 --> 00:14:47,820 was already out there, just sort of scattered to the wind. 377 00:14:47,820 --> 00:14:50,740 And you sort of collected it up so that your students 378 00:14:50,740 --> 00:14:53,540 and you don't have to do quite as much administrative work 379 00:14:53,540 --> 00:14:57,180 to go out and find examples to work from in the assignment. 380 00:14:57,180 --> 00:14:59,580 Was that sort of part of your thinking in the design? 381 00:14:59,580 --> 00:15:02,780 TOM: Absolutely, because that's exactly the right word, scattered. 382 00:15:02,780 --> 00:15:07,660 It was all across journals, industry publications, websites, 383 00:15:07,660 --> 00:15:09,580 old interviews, just everywhere, 384 00:15:09,580 --> 00:15:11,580 but never two things in the same place. 385 00:15:11,580 --> 00:15:14,420 It was just a real scattering of information 386 00:15:14,420 --> 00:15:16,940 and part information, which they needed to be pieced together. 387 00:15:16,940 --> 00:15:19,700 So it's been a good resource for drawing it all 388 00:15:19,700 --> 00:15:20,900 into that one document. 389 00:15:20,900 --> 00:15:23,380 And the document itself categorises all by what year 390 00:15:23,380 --> 00:15:25,540 was it done, which state does it apply to? 391 00:15:25,540 --> 00:15:27,980 Well, was the initiative financials? 392 00:15:27,980 --> 00:15:30,940 And it even has columns like is this data verifiable? 393 00:15:30,940 --> 00:15:32,180 Like has someone else checked it? 394 00:15:32,180 --> 00:15:34,300 And we've really made sure that we brought it together, 395 00:15:34,300 --> 00:15:37,140 but also confirmed it and categorized it as well. 396 00:15:37,140 --> 00:15:39,660 LAUREN: Are you hearing any stories from the students so far? 397 00:15:39,660 --> 00:15:42,340 They're in week four that just got access to the database. 398 00:15:42,340 --> 00:15:45,020 Any sort of feedback or stories coming from them? 399 00:15:45,020 --> 00:15:46,340 TOM: There hasn't been a lot as yet, 400 00:15:46,340 --> 00:15:48,980 because I think we're still a few weeks away from the due date. 401 00:15:48,980 --> 00:15:52,620 But they are anecdotally in class talking about the fact 402 00:15:52,620 --> 00:15:55,340 that they're not worried about that part of the assessment anymore. 403 00:15:55,340 --> 00:15:57,940 Whereas in this time of the trimester in the past, 404 00:15:57,940 --> 00:16:00,380 there was a lot of ‘how on earth are we supposed to do this?’ 405 00:16:00,380 --> 00:16:01,740 because it had math in it. 406 00:16:01,740 --> 00:16:04,180 They were really unsure of what they were looking for. 407 00:16:04,180 --> 00:16:05,420 Like what's the answer? 408 00:16:05,420 --> 00:16:06,100 Is it a number? 409 00:16:06,100 --> 00:16:07,540 Is it a description? 410 00:16:07,540 --> 00:16:10,100 And now they can see that, yes, when you do it 411 00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:12,900 and you get an ROI figure, then you've done it correctly. 412 00:16:12,900 --> 00:16:15,580 LAUREN: So I can imagine that this is also freeing up 413 00:16:15,580 --> 00:16:18,980 more time for you instead of answering basic questions 414 00:16:18,980 --> 00:16:20,380 about the assignment. 415 00:16:20,380 --> 00:16:23,820 You have more time in class or in your online discussion, 416 00:16:23,820 --> 00:16:26,260 Q and A forum to focus on other things. 417 00:16:26,260 --> 00:16:27,660 Is that something you're observing yet? 418 00:16:27,660 --> 00:16:31,940 TOM: Yeah, it is because they, because the resource is categorized 419 00:16:31,940 --> 00:16:35,060 into different ideas of issues that they could do. 420 00:16:35,060 --> 00:16:38,300 They're able to go much further without having to check back with me. 421 00:16:38,300 --> 00:16:41,380 Whereas before, when we said do a sustainable initiative 422 00:16:41,380 --> 00:16:43,940 and work out if it's financially rewarding, 423 00:16:43,940 --> 00:16:46,500 they really didn't know what does it mean initially 424 00:16:46,500 --> 00:16:48,340 if they was even struggling with that concept. 425 00:16:48,340 --> 00:16:50,340 But now they're directed right down the path 426 00:16:50,340 --> 00:16:53,940 to the final figure in the haven't been having too many troubles getting started. 427 00:16:53,940 --> 00:16:54,740 LAUREN: It's very cool. 428 00:16:54,740 --> 00:16:57,980 It's actually what we've heard across all of these interviews 429 00:16:57,980 --> 00:17:03,660 is OER creators having a lot less of an academic sort of administrative burden 430 00:17:03,660 --> 00:17:07,740 because the way that the resources streamline the experience for themselves 431 00:17:07,740 --> 00:17:09,340 and the students. 432 00:17:09,340 --> 00:17:10,100 That's a good thing. 433 00:17:10,100 --> 00:17:10,780 TOM: Yeah. 434 00:17:10,780 --> 00:17:14,860 LAUREN: How many students would you say will be using this resource 435 00:17:14,860 --> 00:17:16,380 over the course of a given year? 436 00:17:16,380 --> 00:17:18,140 This trimester, 160. 437 00:17:18,140 --> 00:17:19,900 LAUREN: And it's offered once per year? 438 00:17:19,900 --> 00:17:21,580 TOM: Once per year, yeah. 439 00:17:21,580 --> 00:17:25,180 LAUREN: Let's shift here a little bit and talk about how the OER project 440 00:17:25,180 --> 00:17:28,460 has informed or impacted your own teaching. 441 00:17:28,460 --> 00:17:32,500 TOM: It was wonderful because it solved one of the big problems for me 442 00:17:32,500 --> 00:17:34,900 because I'm very passionate about this topic. 443 00:17:34,900 --> 00:17:36,420 This is my focus. 444 00:17:36,420 --> 00:17:40,180 And I just constantly was seeing the struggles around it 445 00:17:40,180 --> 00:17:44,020 and it worried me for a long time how on earth to finally find a way 446 00:17:44,020 --> 00:17:46,820 where people can embrace this, do it successfully 447 00:17:46,820 --> 00:17:49,060 because in the past few years it was quite sad 448 00:17:49,060 --> 00:17:52,900 for this part of the assignment to constantly give fails or poor marks. 449 00:17:52,900 --> 00:17:56,580 It's helped me with the main part of what I like about this whole topic, 450 00:17:56,580 --> 00:18:00,700 the sustainability and the improvement of housing in Australia to make them more sustainable. 451 00:18:00,700 --> 00:18:03,700 It's enabled me to tick that box for myself personally. 452 00:18:03,700 --> 00:18:05,860 Right now I know they want to go to work 453 00:18:05,860 --> 00:18:10,020 and I'm trying to overcome this preconception of you know, you can't be green 454 00:18:10,020 --> 00:18:13,380 because it's too, I can actually go to work now and say I'm very happy with this 455 00:18:13,380 --> 00:18:17,300 because now the students are able to do this and take that knowledge into the workplace. 456 00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:19,060 So it's been wonderful in the teaching. 457 00:18:19,060 --> 00:18:23,220 It's turned a frustration into a positive instead which is a big flip 458 00:18:23,220 --> 00:18:26,580 and made the whole unit make more sense for me because I know I'm getting in 459 00:18:26,580 --> 00:18:29,540 and a positive outcome with regard to the students. 460 00:18:29,540 --> 00:18:32,660 It's also with the students, you know, the time-saving element of it 461 00:18:32,660 --> 00:18:35,780 of giving them the path but it's also opening up other discussions 462 00:18:35,780 --> 00:18:38,900 because overall we're doing a feasibility study in the unit 463 00:18:38,900 --> 00:18:42,580 and a feasibility study with this part not working wasn't really that great 464 00:18:42,580 --> 00:18:44,900 of feasibility study for an entire project. 465 00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:49,380 So now we can say for example we're teaching them about the money side of this 466 00:18:49,380 --> 00:18:52,900 but now we're also saying okay you've got that sorted and now how are you going to market that? 467 00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:56,340 And so now when you're doing your marketing for your project you're able to say 468 00:18:56,340 --> 00:19:01,380 this is a sustainability aspect and that means I will go more green as a developer 469 00:19:01,380 --> 00:19:04,660 and therefore I'll put that into my marketing and build my marketing campaign 470 00:19:04,660 --> 00:19:07,540 Around you know ‘buy this, be comfortable, save money’, that type of thing 471 00:19:07,540 --> 00:19:11,140 and they can put some of those initiatives into their project because they're happy now 472 00:19:11,140 --> 00:19:13,380 to include them knowing that it's a positive for them. 473 00:19:13,380 --> 00:19:16,580 So with the teaching it's just taken something where we'd go through the 474 00:19:16,580 --> 00:19:20,260 and get stuck in mud, you know, where we're stepping over the mud now and looking at 475 00:19:20,260 --> 00:19:24,660 other options because of the support we get from doing this part correctly. 476 00:19:24,660 --> 00:19:27,220 LAUREN: That's really cool. I love it when students can go through 477 00:19:27,220 --> 00:19:31,380 learning experience and each assignment builds upon the previous one. 478 00:19:31,380 --> 00:19:32,100 TOM: Yes, yes. 479 00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:35,060 LAUREN: Which is a very sort of project-based and it sounds like it's also 480 00:19:35,060 --> 00:19:37,140 given you a lot of professional satisfaction. 481 00:19:37,140 --> 00:19:40,420 TOM: Yes, definitely because when you're passionate about something you can't quite teach it. 482 00:19:40,420 --> 00:19:42,980 It's a little bit frustrating and you think what am I doing wrong? 483 00:19:42,980 --> 00:19:44,260 Why is a message not getting through? 484 00:19:44,260 --> 00:19:47,060 I can't convince them how they're going to convince other people. 485 00:19:47,060 --> 00:19:51,460 So we just have to find that path and we've been able to do it through this resource. 486 00:19:51,460 --> 00:19:54,820 LAUREN: Were you already sort of a big OER advocate? 487 00:19:54,820 --> 00:19:58,340 Did you know about OER before you went through the OER program? 488 00:19:58,340 --> 00:20:04,100 TOM: Yes, we have been using it because sustainability has changed so quickly over the last 10 years. 489 00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:07,700 With every year there's a new law, a new regulation, new invention, 490 00:20:07,700 --> 00:20:11,140 a new thinking that the textbooks just weren't keeping up. 491 00:20:11,140 --> 00:20:14,740 So we had to look for, we had to reduce our reliance on textbooks 492 00:20:14,740 --> 00:20:18,980 which would go out of date quite quickly and we had to find more current up-to-date 493 00:20:18,980 --> 00:20:21,060 and and resources that were being updated. 494 00:20:21,060 --> 00:20:25,700 So we had been looking and finding published things from other academics 495 00:20:25,700 --> 00:20:30,420 and people in the industry that were not textbook focused but were sort of like live evolving 496 00:20:30,420 --> 00:20:32,820 pieces of work and that's what we've been using. 497 00:20:32,820 --> 00:20:37,620 It's just simply because we had to, I mean we had to be relevant and we had to keep up with all of the changes. 498 00:20:37,620 --> 00:20:41,060 LAUREN: So you were already pretty familiar with sort of the open landscape. 499 00:20:41,060 --> 00:20:45,780 It wasn't a… it was a pretty low barrier to entry for you to be convinced to produce an OER. 500 00:20:45,780 --> 00:20:49,540 TOM: Yeah, definitely because some of our colleagues at other universities working this space 501 00:20:49,540 --> 00:20:54,020 have put out really good work and we saw how comfortably it's sat with our 502 00:20:54,020 --> 00:20:57,460 teaching units, like their work sat with our teaching units. We thought if they can do 503 00:20:57,460 --> 00:21:01,060 something that helps our unit, why can’t we do something that helps our unit? 504 00:21:01,060 --> 00:21:06,180 LAUREN: I can imagine there's a fair bit of alignment in the values of sustainability 505 00:21:06,180 --> 00:21:08,660 and the values of open education. 506 00:21:08,660 --> 00:21:10,180 TOM: Absolutely, yeah. 507 00:21:10,180 --> 00:21:14,820 LAUREN: Did you have a lot to learn going through the OER program in terms of copyright 508 00:21:14,820 --> 00:21:17,540 or open publishing? Like what was that experience like? 509 00:21:17,540 --> 00:21:22,340 TOM: Copyright, yes. Well, I struggle with copyright because it always seems to come when you don't 510 00:21:22,340 --> 00:21:26,660 expect it and there was a lot of reviewing of my work and that to make quite a few changes 511 00:21:26,660 --> 00:21:30,180 because just for, you know, it's all makes sense now and but it was at, you know, 512 00:21:30,180 --> 00:21:34,180 frustrating at the time we think I'm nearly done and then someone says I've just reviewed your 513 00:21:34,180 --> 00:21:38,900 document you need to make 60 changes. But we've got them all done and they were great, you know, 514 00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:43,300 the people that were in charge were very supportive and helped get through it and said, you know, 515 00:21:43,300 --> 00:21:47,780 try doing this instead of that and make sure you put a note there and take out that image because 516 00:21:47,780 --> 00:21:52,020 that's not, you know, your image. Put another one in and we did all that and it made the resource 517 00:21:52,020 --> 00:21:57,300 better. So it was a challenge. We had another challenge to where we got interest from The Conversation. 518 00:21:57,300 --> 00:22:00,980 Just as we're sort of in the middle of wrapping it up but still going through the copyright 519 00:22:00,980 --> 00:22:04,900 thing and they said, "Hurry, hurry, we need to write about this and we want to publish it on Tuesday." 520 00:22:04,900 --> 00:22:08,340 And we go, "Oh my god, Tuesday. How are we going to get it all done by then?" So I was a mad rush 521 00:22:08,340 --> 00:22:12,740 at the end to finalise it. We had to redo the video because in the back of the video there was 522 00:22:12,740 --> 00:22:16,980 a few logos that had snuck in from the PowerPoint and everything had to be redone very quickly but 523 00:22:16,980 --> 00:22:20,740 it was worth it because it was so nice that they showed interest in what we were doing and wanted to 524 00:22:20,740 --> 00:22:25,860 run the story so that got us through to speed it all up at the end a bit but the process is fine 525 00:22:25,860 --> 00:22:30,500 with copyrights and learning how to present it. It's just following the instructions that you're given 526 00:22:30,500 --> 00:22:34,260 it all comes together very nicely and then you're assured that you're not going to get any calls 527 00:22:34,260 --> 00:22:39,460 later on. You shouldn't have done that or whatever. Or so because everything's been, you know, thoroughly 528 00:22:39,460 --> 00:22:44,420 reviewed, assessed and approved. LAUREN: So you were published, an interview of yours was published in 529 00:22:44,420 --> 00:22:48,820 The Conversation. TOM: Yeah, it was fabulous. Yeah, we're very excited about that. We wrote an article 530 00:22:48,820 --> 00:22:55,380 and they put it up and it led to also the local Geelong Advertiser picking it up and they're going 531 00:22:55,380 --> 00:22:59,060 to run an article this week about it as well and we love that connection with Geelong because we've 532 00:22:59,060 --> 00:23:04,100 done grants with the City of Geelong Sustainable Building Design before so it's just nice to keep 533 00:23:04,100 --> 00:23:08,260 that all those connections and keep building that body of knowledge where a lot of housing is being 534 00:23:08,260 --> 00:23:14,900 built down in the Geelong area. LAUREN: What other impact have you sort of observed outside of Deakin? 535 00:23:14,900 --> 00:23:19,380 TOM: It's been good with connecting us with our other school at Deakin. They're on a different campus, 536 00:23:19,380 --> 00:23:23,780 the construction school, but through LinkedIn and talking to them, we've met them at different 537 00:23:23,780 --> 00:23:28,980 functions. We brought our two schools closer together. So in the past, you know, we're sort of like 538 00:23:28,980 --> 00:23:33,140 friendly rivals, but now we're realising that we're all trying to do the same thing, build better 539 00:23:33,140 --> 00:23:37,140 quality and sustainable homes. So it's really brought in a good linkage with them and we've done 540 00:23:37,140 --> 00:23:41,460 some joint grant applications with them as a result because we realise we're got a common 541 00:23:41,460 --> 00:23:47,860 idea and goal. So that's been wonderful. As for other external things, it's just nice. It's been a 542 00:23:47,860 --> 00:23:52,580 wonderful thing for LinkedIn as well. You know, connecting with our alumni who are out in the workforce 543 00:23:52,580 --> 00:23:56,180 and then the follow-on effect of that and you check, you know, the comments and the views and just 544 00:23:56,180 --> 00:24:00,740 see that it is nice that word spreading, but it's also nice. No one's come back and debunked it. 545 00:24:00,740 --> 00:24:04,500 You know, so it holds up. No one said that's rubbish. You shouldn't be 546 00:24:04,500 --> 00:24:09,140 publishing that. They've all said yeah, that's great. So it's been nice to see that validation from 547 00:24:09,140 --> 00:24:13,300 our alumni and other people on LinkedIn because they're adding the field already. LAUREN: Oh, that's lovely. 548 00:24:13,300 --> 00:24:18,180 So the OER is also giving you something to talk about on LinkedIn, which is making you feel more 549 00:24:18,180 --> 00:24:22,820 connected to your graduates and alumni. TOM: Absolutely, because once we've got that simple number, 550 00:24:22,820 --> 00:24:27,460 like an ROI number, it makes a great LinkedIn approach. You don't have to say here's 30 paragraphs 551 00:24:27,460 --> 00:24:31,940 on the business case and explain it all. You just put a graph and it says here's the four sectors 552 00:24:31,940 --> 00:24:36,580 that developer can look at energy efficiency, procurement, etc. There's the ROI for all of them and 553 00:24:36,580 --> 00:24:41,300 the average is 18 percent and boom, it just becomes a nice simple visual for everyone to see and 554 00:24:41,300 --> 00:24:46,180 helps to spread the word that way. LAUREN: Yeah, fabulous. Are there any other stories you'd like to share? 555 00:24:46,180 --> 00:24:51,540 TOM: There are a few other stories from doing the business case for sustainability. Well, one is 556 00:24:51,540 --> 00:24:56,900 how good the results were because when we, you know, if you go back 10 years and you look at the 557 00:24:56,900 --> 00:25:02,820 housing market then, it's been a very rapid change. And one of the reasons, for example, is 558 00:25:02,820 --> 00:25:08,820 the search engines on real estate sites like realestate.com and those ones. It was only quite recently, 559 00:25:08,820 --> 00:25:12,580 a few years ago, where they put in a little button, where you could click that says, "Eco”, 560 00:25:12,580 --> 00:25:16,580 like if you were searching your bedrooms, you want to pool whatever it is. And now, and then a button 561 00:25:16,580 --> 00:25:20,260 appeared, "Hey, looking for eco features." They didn't choose the word sustainable, they chose 562 00:25:20,260 --> 00:25:25,140 eco. But basically, by putting that in, they're now able to publish a lot of data and say, 563 00:25:25,140 --> 00:25:29,940 this many percentage of people are looking for eco features and energy efficient figures. So, 564 00:25:29,940 --> 00:25:34,180 we've been able to extract a phenomenal amount of data now because once they selected, 565 00:25:34,180 --> 00:25:39,220 if you then match it to the house prices, they're now able to say, "There's a premium being paid 566 00:25:39,220 --> 00:25:43,700 for homes with these features because they can compare the non and the ones with eco." And then, 567 00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:47,700 they're starting to publish data. And that's really pushed the whole awareness along as well. So, 568 00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:52,500 for us, we've come from before that time, where there was none of this data and discussion, 569 00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:56,660 for suddenly it's there. And we were sort of in our mind, still back a few years saying, 570 00:25:56,660 --> 00:26:01,300 "Please be a positive RRI. Please, you know, don't be negative and destroy it." So, we were thinking, 571 00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:06,340 "If we get two or three percent RRI, I will be thrilled." And when it came out as high as it did, 572 00:26:06,340 --> 00:26:10,260 then we were just thrilled and we thought, "Well, what a win, you know, because it's even better 573 00:26:10,260 --> 00:26:14,980 than we thought, and that will make it harder for people to ignore." And the other interesting story 574 00:26:14,980 --> 00:26:21,300 about this was, of course, AI's come along. And AI has been an interesting exercise, too, because 575 00:26:21,300 --> 00:26:25,940 to look at a huge Excel document and try and extract averages is quite difficult for the average 576 00:26:25,940 --> 00:26:32,260 person. But it's not at all for AI. And what it was able to do was, because we fed in a lot of cases 577 00:26:32,260 --> 00:26:37,460 and asked it to extrapolate the data. It had a master huge amount of knowledge. So, a lot of the reports 578 00:26:37,460 --> 00:26:42,100 we were reading were from large groups, and that were 200 page reports, like one from United Nations, 579 00:26:42,100 --> 00:26:46,420 because we went international as well just to get some context on what's happening. And AI started 580 00:26:46,420 --> 00:26:51,620 to give us a commentary as well. And it was saying things like, it's interesting to note it would say 581 00:26:51,620 --> 00:26:56,740 that this is how you would summarise the feeling in the market over the last 15 years. And it would 582 00:26:56,740 --> 00:27:01,620 go back 15 years and say, "Not interested in Sustainable," then it would say, "Seeing Sustainable 583 00:27:01,620 --> 00:27:06,740 as a positive add-on for the top end." And, and eventually it said, it’s really proven the 584 00:27:06,740 --> 00:27:12,020 business case in a way because its own discussion of everything was that the business case came in more 585 00:27:12,020 --> 00:27:17,060 recently, where people were wanting to - the AI was saying this - were wanting to be more 586 00:27:17,060 --> 00:27:20,660 comfortable in their homes and save money on bills. But then it's now read enough that it's saying 587 00:27:20,660 --> 00:27:25,060 out the developers of the ones pushing this point, saying that we're the ones who are benefiting as well 588 00:27:25,060 --> 00:27:29,460 as a homeowner, so it's starting to see that real change industry come through where it's, 589 00:27:29,460 --> 00:27:36,340 it's being developed a lead rather than simply by a demand. And the whole watching AI talk to us 590 00:27:36,340 --> 00:27:41,140 about it's been really quite interesting, because it's, and we've read books about how to use AI, 591 00:27:41,140 --> 00:27:46,420 just to make sure we're doing it properly. And it's been, you know, you say, thanks for that study on 592 00:27:46,420 --> 00:27:51,860 it, we still say thanks to AI, we don't need to, but we still do. Here's another case, can you reread 593 00:27:51,860 --> 00:27:56,900 this and try and extrapolate a particular type of business case, whatever. And it would often come 594 00:27:56,900 --> 00:28:00,900 back and say there, I read the 200 pages, there is no business case in there, but I did learn this, 595 00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:05,860 and it would give us a new insight in something as well, like the effect on regulations towards, 596 00:28:05,860 --> 00:28:09,940 you know, its effect on house prices and different things like that. So it's been a surprise, 597 00:28:09,940 --> 00:28:13,780 was the whole, it just happened to come along at the right time, AI, and we've been able to really 598 00:28:13,780 --> 00:28:18,980 enjoy using that, because we'll feel a little bit unsure about doing math on such a big scale, 599 00:28:18,980 --> 00:28:24,980 and AI does it in a blink. LAUREN: So what's interesting is because your resources openly licensed, you have 600 00:28:24,980 --> 00:28:31,540 ethical and legal permission to feed it into AI. TOM: Yes. LAUREN: And likewise your students could as well. 601 00:28:31,540 --> 00:28:38,500 There's tons of potential for students to use openly licensed resources with AI for equity or 602 00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:43,140 other sort of accessible learning benefits. TOM: It's been wonderful. I don't want to talk it up too much, 603 00:28:43,140 --> 00:28:48,180 because I have my reservations about its effect overall on humanity, but in terms of reading a 604 00:28:48,180 --> 00:28:52,980 250 page document and extracting little bits of information that's been a blessing. Yeah, we're 605 00:28:52,980 --> 00:28:58,180 parsing a massive database. Yeah, that's right. Just pulling stuff out for you. Yeah, because it reads 606 00:28:58,180 --> 00:29:02,740 the footnotes and everything, right? It's, make sure it does a thorough job. Yeah, that's really cool. 607 00:29:02,740 --> 00:29:09,300 LAUREN: Do you have a favourite case study in your OER? TOM: I do. It's one where you, and the reason why it's 608 00:29:09,300 --> 00:29:14,260 my favourite is because it, and we do have a category in our OER called key cases and we tick the key 609 00:29:14,260 --> 00:29:19,300 cases, just to help AI target in on them as a, as a waiting, but also for students to find. And the 610 00:29:19,300 --> 00:29:25,460 reason why it's our favourite is it was recent. It was done by one of the very large builder developer 611 00:29:25,460 --> 00:29:31,060 groups. They started their project and decided to document it and case study it all as they went 612 00:29:31,060 --> 00:29:35,540 along. So they kept all of the records. And trust that was like, you know, the perfect case study, 613 00:29:35,540 --> 00:29:40,740 they also went gas-free and gas-free is interesting because they still look quite a bit of resistance 614 00:29:40,740 --> 00:29:45,380 in the trade because there's a lot of people making money out of gas. So they still, you know, they'll 615 00:29:45,380 --> 00:29:50,180 fight it and lobby when the government tries to remove gas. So they said we're going to do, we're going 616 00:29:50,180 --> 00:29:54,900 to do an all-electric apartment building. It was about 200 apartments and they came up with an exact 617 00:29:54,900 --> 00:29:59,860 figure and said it costs us exactly this much and they gave it to the dollar of how much it cost 618 00:29:59,860 --> 00:30:04,820 them more to do all-electric. And then they did comparative sales on the sales of their apartment 619 00:30:04,820 --> 00:30:10,740 and they came up with what they say their apartment so-for compared with competing local other 620 00:30:10,740 --> 00:30:16,660 apartments with gas in them. And the figures were it was way above 18%. It was like 400%. So they said - 621 00:30:16,660 --> 00:30:20,500 really - They said we spent, I can give you the figures. They said basically we spent 622 00:30:20,500 --> 00:30:28,500 6,857 dollars per apartment to make them all-electric and they say we sold $25,000 premium on their 623 00:30:28,500 --> 00:30:33,940 comparative sales. So they say we spent six and a bit and we got 25. LAUREN: Wow. TOM: And that's that's why it's my 624 00:30:33,940 --> 00:30:38,500 favourite one because you can't argue with it. They started the whole process at the beginning and 625 00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:43,300 did it all. LAUREN: Super cool. TOM: And it means that anyone that comes on says you can't do a apartment with 626 00:30:43,300 --> 00:30:48,340 that gas. You say yes you can because there it is and that's why it's so wonderful to just point 627 00:30:48,340 --> 00:30:53,460 to it and go there's the ROI. LAUREN: Amazing. TOM: Yeah. LAUREN: So you've just been through this whole experience of 628 00:30:53,460 --> 00:30:58,260 publishing an OER. You identified a gap. You identified a problem in your teaching context. 629 00:30:58,260 --> 00:31:03,220 This grant came along. You applied for it. You won the grant. You wrote your OER. You published the OER 630 00:31:03,220 --> 00:31:09,220 and now you're teaching with it. What do you think your experiences can tell us about OER in general? 631 00:31:09,220 --> 00:31:14,420 TOM: I think it's great because it then gives you like a path that says you've got to get your thoughts 632 00:31:14,420 --> 00:31:18,820 together to apply for the grant and then you get the grant so you get to do more work and then there's 633 00:31:18,820 --> 00:31:22,980 a timeline so you have to have it ready by this day after name but you have to just basically pull 634 00:31:22,980 --> 00:31:26,820 it all the bits together of what you've been thinking because you constantly have to explain to 635 00:31:26,820 --> 00:31:31,300 some of why you're doing that or what you're including and rather than just sort of being an add-on 636 00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:35,860 to it to teaching and so I wouldn't have time while doing this. It puts up your priority list 637 00:31:35,860 --> 00:31:40,660 and it forces you to get it done to a high standard and that brings a nice confidence and assurance 638 00:31:40,660 --> 00:31:45,380 to it because if anyone starts the question and maybe you can say no it's been rigorously 639 00:31:45,380 --> 00:31:50,740 tested by this and it's been thought through and it's been approved and had articles/ And you just 640 00:31:50,740 --> 00:31:55,220 feel really confident in the whole thing because it's gone down a, well, you know, like a 641 00:31:55,220 --> 00:32:00,020 peer reviewed path. You know, the peers are sometimes copyright people they're sometimes 642 00:32:00,020 --> 00:32:05,220 learning academics and it just means that everything's done quicker and it's done better. 643 00:32:05,220 --> 00:32:08,820 LAUREN: So do you think that we are having an impact on teaching and learning? 644 00:32:08,820 --> 00:32:13,860 TOM: I think so, yeah for that the reason I just mentioned there and just generally because we also know 645 00:32:13,860 --> 00:32:18,260 students are looking for everything to be a little bit updated and you that don't want to go and buy 646 00:32:18,260 --> 00:32:22,740 you know expensive textbook online. They prefer to know everything's currently easily available 647 00:32:22,740 --> 00:32:28,100 verified and the whole open education thing to them fixing with their learning mentality these days 648 00:32:28,100 --> 00:32:32,500 where you know you don't they don't go oh that textbook's now seven years old or something they sort 649 00:32:32,500 --> 00:32:38,100 of look at and go it's online it's accurate it's proved and it's it's in with what we're trying to do. 650 00:32:38,100 --> 00:32:42,340 LAUREN: Do you tell them this is an open education resource and what do they? 651 00:32:42,340 --> 00:32:46,980 TOM: I send them to the directory via the link yeah. LAUREN: And what do they say about open education resource? 652 00:32:46,980 --> 00:32:51,300 Do they know what those are? TOM: To them it's just a new normal. They don't seem to have to think that 653 00:32:51,300 --> 00:32:54,900 it's not a textbook, I should comment on the fact that it's not a textbook. They just go that's 654 00:32:54,900 --> 00:32:59,860 what I wanted, that's where it is, let's go, if that makes sense. Do you know what I mean? Like some 655 00:32:59,860 --> 00:33:04,660 of us are like, textbooks justify it or why is it not a textbook why isn't it to them it's just 656 00:33:04,660 --> 00:33:09,300 what they want. LAUREN: Are they excited about it being openly licensed or does that sort of not 657 00:33:09,300 --> 00:33:12,900 matter to them it's just as long as they have access and it's free and it's there and it meets their 658 00:33:12,900 --> 00:33:17,620 needs. TOM: I've told them if I do a good job on their assignment will be added to it. A few of them 659 00:33:17,620 --> 00:33:22,260 gave me a surprised look, like “really? my stuff going into that?” That was a bit of a you 660 00:33:22,260 --> 00:33:27,060 know you saw their eyebrows go up. LAUREN: Like surprise skeptical or surprised excited? TOM: I think surprise 661 00:33:27,060 --> 00:33:32,180 nervous. that was the impression I got. But you know there's some that when they hear that they’re 662 00:33:32,180 --> 00:33:36,660 keen to be part of it because I know that in the past, not with the whole group but even at the early 663 00:33:36,660 --> 00:33:40,740 Stages, the ones who came to the online tutes, so I was talking to them about it's saying this is what 664 00:33:40,740 --> 00:33:44,820 I'm doing you know if you do it. And from that very small samples that was just tested 665 00:33:44,820 --> 00:33:48,820 and last year they'd made sure they did a good job because they wanted to be included so now I've 666 00:33:48,820 --> 00:33:53,620 Opened it up to the whole lot so we'll see how many of them respond. LAUREN: So there were students from last year 667 00:33:53,620 --> 00:33:58,340 whose work was included in the database? TOM: Yes there is if you're going to one of the pages you can see 668 00:33:58,340 --> 00:34:02,820 it says ‘student’ and then I had to verify it by checking all their maths for them. But there's 669 00:34:02,820 --> 00:34:07,700 about I think 15 students in the database at the moment. LAUREN: What was it like for those students to have 670 00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:13,140 their work included? TOM: Well they know until later when I wrote to them and said 671 00:34:13,140 --> 00:34:17,140 ‘by the way you did such a great job on your assignment, I've put it in here’ and they go ‘oh that's 672 00:34:17,140 --> 00:34:21,620 nice so thank you for that, for you know, showing confidence in everything.’ So that was quite funny. LAUREN: Have you 673 00:34:21,620 --> 00:34:26,740 heard from them since the resources been published? TOM: No because you know they're all third-years when, that was 674 00:34:26,740 --> 00:34:31,940 last year, so they're all sort of left now so and this has all happened recently quite quickly so I 675 00:34:31,940 --> 00:34:37,460 haven't heard yet but when I do my next post on LinkedIn about it, because we keep updating it, I'm sure 676 00:34:37,460 --> 00:34:42,100 hear from some of them then because I know they will follow. LAUREN: Yeah but I think that's really cool and 677 00:34:42,100 --> 00:34:46,340 from the conversations that I've had with other academics who've included student work or they've 678 00:34:46,340 --> 00:34:52,900 included students as collaborators in their OER they impact tends to be really quite profound for 679 00:34:52,900 --> 00:34:59,140 students who are you know their work is seen as valid and it's enough to be included in a published 680 00:34:59,140 --> 00:35:03,380 resource like there's just been some really amazing stories so I can only imagine how those 681 00:35:03,380 --> 00:35:08,260 students would feel to know that their work is included. TOM: And there's something even better because 682 00:35:08,260 --> 00:35:12,660 some of them are mature age students and they've actually gone and done what they said to their house 683 00:35:12,660 --> 00:35:17,380 because some of them have done a business case why put solar panels and things 684 00:35:17,380 --> 00:35:22,660 on my house and they've actually gone and done it and then told me to proceed. LAUREN: Oh that's so cool. 685 00:35:22,660 --> 00:35:28,020 TOM: That's very nice. LAUREN: Look at that, real world application of the work that you're doing. Tom is there 686 00:35:28,020 --> 00:35:32,660 anything else that you'd like to share about your OER before we wrap up? TOM: The only other thing is I'm 687 00:35:32,660 --> 00:35:36,660 thinking of doing another one. So because I had another idea and I thought you know to get it 688 00:35:36,660 --> 00:35:41,860 through to fruition this could be the best way to do it so. LAUREN: What's the new idea? TOM: It's about green 689 00:35:41,860 --> 00:35:47,780 leases. Of course a green lease. A green lease is again overcoming some of the obstacles in the 690 00:35:47,780 --> 00:35:52,660 property market so if you look statistically the least sustainable homes and the most energy 691 00:35:52,660 --> 00:35:56,820 efficient are often the rental properties because if someone's got their own home they might 692 00:35:56,820 --> 00:36:01,140 incentivise to say I'm going to put this in and be more comfortable with me and then I'll save 693 00:36:01,140 --> 00:36:06,420 money but there's a disconnect where a landlord says why would I do all those things when I don't 694 00:36:06,420 --> 00:36:11,380 live in the house? Why do I spend the money they get the warmth from the energy bills. And so in the 695 00:36:11,380 --> 00:36:15,860 commercial space green leases are very popular where you've got you know someone running a large 696 00:36:15,860 --> 00:36:20,260 business talking to someone who owns many properties you know worth hundreds of millions don't you 697 00:36:20,260 --> 00:36:25,220 got a business person talking to a business person saying let's get together when we redo the 698 00:36:25,220 --> 00:36:30,180 lease you do all these upgrades and I'll pay you a bit more and everyone will be happy. So the 699 00:36:30,180 --> 00:36:34,420 landlord gets more rent the tenant gets better energy efficiency and very productive happy staff 700 00:36:34,420 --> 00:36:38,660 who's in a beautiful office building. It's a different conversation in residential because you've 701 00:36:38,660 --> 00:36:44,100 got millions of individual landlords lots of different renters everybody's moving and changing 702 00:36:44,100 --> 00:36:48,900 and it's not a connection path of a common discussion where you could drop in something but a green 703 00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:53,780 lease would be brilliant for all rental properties where the landlords they show I put on solar panels 704 00:36:53,780 --> 00:36:59,940 and a battery cost me this much I put the rent up this much you get comfortable and lower bills 705 00:36:59,940 --> 00:37:03,700 my house is worth more because it's got these things and you play me a bit more and it just comes 706 00:37:03,700 --> 00:37:08,580 about through a piece of paper. So yeah so an open education resource will be to do research to 707 00:37:08,580 --> 00:37:12,820 interview landlords and find out what percentage of them are likely. Some of them wouldn't be, they’d 708 00:37:12,820 --> 00:37:16,980 go ‘my tenants move all the time all I do it then a new tenant comes’ and they don't want to pay the 709 00:37:16,980 --> 00:37:22,260 higher amount. So there'd be a barrier but um you know there's a forget the term for it but there's 710 00:37:22,260 --> 00:37:26,740 this thing that happens and if we think if we could maybe link in the councils and say you know 711 00:37:26,740 --> 00:37:30,420 can you email all the people on your rates list who are developers and say here's a green lease 712 00:37:30,420 --> 00:37:34,900 template please talk to your tenant about it you get a certain percentage and a nice percentage 713 00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:40,900 to do it will be fantastic for everyone so that's our next idea. LAUREN: I love that you wrote an OER and you 714 00:37:40,900 --> 00:37:45,300 loved the experience so much that you want to do another one it's a very good sign. I'm going to 715 00:37:45,300 --> 00:37:52,100 bring us to a close with some credits. Stories of Openness is a limited series from the Open Education 716 00:37:52,100 --> 00:37:57,540 team at Deakin University Library. It's part of a research by podcast project led by me Lauren 717 00:37:57,540 --> 00:38:02,820 Halcomb-Smith with Angie Williamson, DannI Johnson, and Eddie Pavuna. We choose open wherever possible 718 00:38:02,820 --> 00:38:08,500 including Audacity for editing, Castopod for hosting, and music by Scott Holmes music. This podcast 719 00:38:08,500 --> 00:38:14,580 by Deakin University is licensed under a CC-BY-NC 4.0 license. For more information and full 720 00:38:14,580 --> 00:38:19,300 Acknowledgements, please see our show notes. Thank you so much for listening thank you, Tom. 721 00:38:19,300 --> 00:38:26,168 TOM: thank you Lauren.