(upbeat music)
LAUREN: Hello and welcome listeners.
You are listening to Stories of Openness,
a limited series podcast created by the Open Education Team
at Deakin University Library.
My name is Lauren Halcomb-Smith, and I'm your host.
I'm a lecturer of Open Education at Deakin,
and I'm on a mission to explore the impact
that Open Educational Resources, or OER,
are having on learning and teaching at Deakin.
OER are free textbooks and other learning materials
that anyone can use, adapt, and share,
which is unlike traditional textbooks
that are locked behind high costs and copyright restrictions.
In this series, I'm talking with Deakin academics
about their experiences of creating
and using open resources.
This podcast is part of a research project
that uses podcasting as a research methodology.
So this conversation is both a podcast episode
and open research data.
I am coming to you today from the beautiful,
traditional and unseated lands of the Boonwurrung people,
and I gratefully acknowledge them
as the traditional custodians of the lands, seas, and skies.
And I recognize that this has been a place
of learning, teaching, and rich conversations for millennia.
And speaking of rich conversations,
today I am joined by associate professor Sagarika Mishra
from Deakin's Faculty of Business and Law.
Sagarika is an interdisciplinary researcher
with expertise in AI and corporate settings,
corporate culture, corporate governance,
and climate risk on financial markets.
And in addition to her research teaching and publishing work,
Sagarika is a co-author of an open textbook
titled Business Finance, which was published in 2023.
This resource was developed with international students in mind
with a view to making business finance concepts
more easily understood without overwhelming readers.
The book balances theory and practice
with clear explanations, real-world examples,
and problem-solving exercises.
Welcome, Sagarika.
Thank you so much for being here today.
How are you this morning?
SAGARIKA: I'm good, Lauren.
And many thanks for this opportunity.
I think this is a brilliant idea what you're working on.
And I was really excited when I was
doing my-- when I was preparing the OER
for my business finance students.
So very happy to be here.
LAUREN: Oh, excellent.
Thank you.
LAUREN: Now, I'm so curious, Sagarika, what led you
to want to create an OER about business finance?
SAGARIKA: Great question.
So yeah, resource actually emerged
from a fairly practical classroom observation rather
than a grand plan.
You know, I never had a plan to prepare something like that.
But what I noticed is that there is a mismatch between textbook
and how students actually engage with learning materials.
And the textbooks are expensive, as you know.
And their language can be quite dense.
And in most subjects, we only rely on a relative small portion
of them.
And for many students, especially those
from the lower socio-economic backgrounds,
purchasing a book for every single subject
is simply not realistic, right?
And then it becomes a financial decision rather
than a learning decision.
So by doing this OER, it's allowed
me to design something more targeted.
And I could focus directly on the concepts students
struggle with and present them in a clear manner
and update the material frequently, right?
So the motivation was really about accessibility, clarity,
and alignment with how teaching actually works rather
than any grand plan.
LAUREN: And so you were noticing that your students weren't buying
the textbook?
SAGARIKA:No, no, they were buying.
But not all of them, right?
I mean, they would often, like, you know,
when I finished the first class, they would come to me
and tell me, do I have to buy the textbook?
And I would like, you know, because it's a prescribed textbook,
then I cannot say that no, you can do without a textbook,
because it's important that they go through the, you know,
concepts, you know, they need something
to actually read and understand,
because it's not possible for me to actually talk about everything
in the class, right?
And because my class duration was like two hours
and I have to cover, like, you know, a whole topic within that.
So at a maximum, I can spare, like, you know,
couple of slides for a concept, right?
But they need actually more information
about to understand it properly, right?
So I have to have the book as a prescribed textbook for the unit.
So there were, like, copies in the library,
but obviously, you know, my class size was like 400 plus students.
So it's, and the library cannot keep that many copies
in the library, right?
So it's just not possible.
So we used to have, like, a e-book version in the library.
So there were multiple e-copies that student can access.
But still, you know, and I feel that student,
when they're studying, they would like to have the book with them.
That gives them the, you know, confidence that, okay, yes, I have it.
I can just go and open it any time and look for the concept.
Rather than thinking, okay, I'm going to go and find the book
in the library or, you know, or basically go online
and find the e-book.
What if the e-book is not available?
Or, you know, the internet is not there, right?
So there are a whole lot of issues.
And I understand it actually because, you know,
if I'm reading something, right, I would like to have the book with me.
So that gives me the mental peace that, you know, yes, I have the book.
I can open it and read it any time I want, right?
And when they come to me asking whether they have to buy the book,
I could understand that, you know, maybe it is a financial pressure.
And they would often ask me, can I get an older edition?
Because older editions are usually cheaper.
So these are the issues that led me to think about creating my own resources
for the students so that, you know, it's easier for a student to access.
LAUREN: Do you remember how much the textbook cost the buy?
SAGARIKA:Yeah, it's $150 or $160.
LAUREN: Wow. SAGARIKA: And we would actually use only 10% or 5% of the book
because it is, you know, a undergrad class, right?
So obviously, I do not require to cover 100 pages
that is allocated for a specific topic or maybe, you know, 50 pages or so, right?
Because they don't need to.
They have to do masters or, you know, even go higher like PhD to learn the other stuff, right?
So they just need to get the basics and, yeah, I mean, that's the story.
LAUREN: I guess it's probably a story that so many of us, myself, you, our listeners,
can probably relate to this experience of, okay, I'm going to spend $160 on a textbook,
which is a lot for an undergraduate student.
SAGARIKA:Yeah.
LAUREN: And then there's the frustration of maybe not using it, the frustration
when it's not fit for purpose for your class.
Or if you take the other path and you try and use the ebook or use the library book,
it's just another barrier for students, you know, that not even the actual barrier
if the book isn't available, but the additional time and effort
that students have to go to to gain access to the book, even if it is available.
It's a story we hear all the time in the open education space.
SAGARIKA: Yeah.
LAUREN: And so you decided my students need an open textbook that's fit for purpose.
SAGARIKA: Yeah.
LAUREN: What happened next?
SAGARIKA: Yeah, I decided and initially I actually wasn't planning to have the whole book.
You know, I was just thinking maybe I'll just focus on the part where the
the concept that students find, you know, difficult to follow.
But then as I was starting to prepare, you know, putting things together, you know,
then I thought maybe given that I'm already starting, might as well just go for the whole whole thing.
It would take a bit of time.
Luckily, I actually started a bit earlier.
So the book was published in 2023, but I started sometimes, you know, late 2022.
So I just thought that, you know, okay, I can spare some more time and I have a complete
resource for my students.
And there was an advertisement about, you know, promotion about like OER grant from Deakin Library.
So I applied for the grant and then I basically mentioned the factors that I just mentioned
to you about like the OER story, like the accessibility student accessibility and student
coming from low socioeconomic background and, you know, how the content is dense.
And then I applied for a grant to actually prepare the OER.
And I got the grant and that basically started the process.
I would say it took me like three months or so because I was kind of focusing on full-time.
Full time, meaning most of the time I was trying to, you know,
most of the time I was trying to like focus on the writing the OER.
And one thing was that because I have been teaching this unit since 2016.
And over the years, when I was changing like, okay, how should I explain this concept?
So I had some notes as well.
So every time I'm taking a new approach, so I have that note.
So I was trying to like put it together.
Okay, what did I do with a couple of years ago and what I'm saying now.
And then just trying to combine and, you know, rewriting those things.
So that also helped, like, you know, because that I was teaching it for some time.
Because I was in the space as you can understand, right?
I mean, and every time, and every time actually I'm teaching, even though I'm teaching the same subject,
I try to think about how best I can communicate this.
So later on in the later stage, actually, I was using a case study to explain business finance concept.
So I was using the case study in the class.
But, you know, in the OER, I don't think I mentioned about the case study.
So it was a standalone concept.
And in the class, they were understanding that concept in the context of a case study.
LAUREN: I love this because what it sounds like to me is the material that went into the OER
is really tried and tested over several years.
And you have your own sort of observations as evidence of the success in your approach.
SAGARIKA: Yeah, that actually helped me to put it together in a relatively short amount.
Because, you know, I have been teaching this.
And I have some, you know, notes around like how I want to explain over the years.
Yeah, so that's basically helped a lot.
LAUREN: And so you worked with the library with the open education librarians.
And presumably the copyright team.
So all of the material in the resource would be completely openly available.
SAGARIKA: Yes, that's a very important piece actually.
And that's what the library team also mentioned.
That, you know, I need to put images and figures.
Those are freely available because, you know, there is this copyright issue.
So what was happening is that I was preparing chapter by chapter.
Because in it, a Deakin we have a trimester system, right?
So we have 10 weeks and 10 weeks of lectures.
So I was preparing material week by week.
And then I was sending it to the library team to go through.
And you know, to make sure that the images or the figures that I have used.
There is no copyright to it.
And couple of times they have actually flagged that, okay, this is a copyright image.
So then I have gone back.
Sometimes they help me to find, you know, like alternative image
and figures that I can use.
And sometimes I have tried to construct, like, make the image myself, you know,
to put it in the, in the, OER.
So that way it was very helpful, you know, that library colleagues were very helpful in helping me put this thing together.
LAUREN: And so there's nine chapters.
Does that correspond to the structure of the unit?
SAGARIKA:Yes, the 10 chapters actually, 10 chapters.
And we have 11 weeks.
And the final week is the revision week.
So there is no new content we cover in week 11.
So the 10 chapters basically corresponds to the 10 weeks that we have at Deakin.
LAUREN: So you've gone from a textbook where your students are maybe only using 10% of a $160 text
to an open textbook that's free that they're using every week.
And it really fit for purpose.
SAGARIKA: Yes. Yeah, the good thing about the OER is that I have a lot of flexibility, right?
So I want to change something next year.
Okay, I have something like, you know, okay, maybe I don't like.
I realize that, you know, when I'm teaching.
And then next year I can just go back and edit that.
So that's how, you know, it gives me the flexibility to actually edit it multiple times.
Or however many times that I like.
And that way I can keep it current as well.
Because once, if you think about books, once it is published,
it's very hard to revise it because it's very, very expensive to revise
and then, you know, print it all over again.
But in the case of OER, because, you know,
I have the freedom and flexibility to go and change.
So if something happening in the business finance world in corporate business,
I can actually, if I find a current example,
I can just incorporate it right away, right?
So that is also another best part of OER.
LAUREN: And I think this really speaks to the quality of OER in general,
which is one of the misconceptions around the OER is that they're,
you know, they lack rigor.
But what we actually see is because they're born digital and they're,
you can update them fully and transparently.
You know, you see, you know, we are people state the revisions.
It means that you can maintain the quality.
SAGARIKA: Yeah, 100%.
You know, like quality, I don't think OER has any quality issue.
Because, you know, like, I'm, I'm thinking that, you know,
academics like us will be, you know, writing the OER for their students.
So it’s more targeted.
And, you know, it may be like, you know, a simplified version of, you know,
what we see in the books.
So it actually depends.
If I'm writing an OER for my second year students at Deakin,
then it has to be at that level, right?
I mean, I have to bring in the rigor at the undergrad level.
I don't want to bring in the rigor of a master's level,
because that book is the OER is not for master's student, right?
LAUREN: Well, I think that would just put up another barrier, right?
If it's written for a level beyond the students, it just creates more barriers.
SAGARIKA: Yeah. So, you know, it actually depends for who we are writing the, the OER.
And the level of rigor would come based on that.
So you have to think about quality in the context of the student, level of degree,
I would say, whether they're doing a bachelor's or whether they're doing a master's.
So the rigor would depend on that.
If the chapters are written in a simplified manner,
that does not mean that, you know, the quality is bad.
It's just meant for a first-year-level student, you know,
who would easily understand that.
LAUREN: So the book was published in 2023,
where at the start of 2026 now,
is the book being used actively in Deakin units?
SAGARIKA: Yes. I think the book went on one round of revision
because I was teaching this unit until 2024.
And 2025, I took a break because I was teaching something else.
By end of 2024, it was about 9,000 views or 9,000 visitors.
Yeah, about 14,143 page views by end of 2024.
If you look at the figure for end of 2025,
it is actually even bigger.
We have about 19,000 visitors and 32,379 page views.
Right? So it's basically the page views tells you that
it's not that they're just clicking on it.
They are actually reading the concepts that is there on that page.
LAUREN: So I know it's getting used. Are you hearing stories about the impact
that it's having on learning?
SAGARIKA: Definitely when I was teaching the unit,
student would definitely come up to me and tell me, you know,
that this is a really great resource because it's
made concepts very easy to understand.
It's very accessible.
So I have heard a lot of stories around how helpful this is.
When I was teaching, and as you look at the analytics of the book,
19,000 visitors, so many thousands of page views,
that basically says that it's a really great resource for students
so that students keep coming back to it.
And it's not just our Deakin students.
It's also used by other reference as well.
I mean, if you're looking for a concept in Google,
you know, Google probably can draw from that OER and present,
that present that to whoever is searching for the concept.
Because that's what in the analytics,
that's what we also see that, you know,
there are so many referrals from google.com and other Bing.com,
even chatgpt.com for Perplexity AI.
So it's being referred by many resources, many other resources as well.
LAUREN: And when you were teaching with the textbook, with the OER,
what did you notice about your students in terms of their success in the unit?
SAGARIKA: Success is actually related.
I mean, being successful in the unit, a lot depends on whether they understand the concept.
That's one thing.
And also, you know, it also depends on how well they can articulate that
when it comes to exam, right?
I mean, so there are two sides of things.
So definitely, you know, I have a very good success rate in my unit.
So the fail rate was down in the unit.
So that basically, you know, tells me that, you know,
probably the resources are adequate for the students to do well in the unit.
LAUREN: Did you sort of notice that on a day-to-day basis when teaching?
But they seem to understand better?
SAGARIKA: Yes, definitely.
Because I was teaching a big class,
it's basically hard to actually see that on a day-to-day basis
that, you know, whether students are understanding.
But I would guess that from their performance in the assessment,
and also, you know, the type of questions that I get in the discussion forum.
I mean, in the discussion forum, if I do not see very basic questions,
then I would say that, okay, they're getting those concepts.
Well, right? So they're only asking about concepts that are a bit complex for them.
And also, if I see less number of questions in the discussion forum,
then I would also feel that, okay, maybe they understand.
So they do not have a whole lot of questions about what we cover in the lecture.
LAUREN: And what was that like for you as a teacher?
SAGARIKA: Right. Obviously, I was feeling very good about it.
This is even before, when we made it available for students in my 2023 trimester,
first trimester one, but by writing the finishing the OEA
actually gave me a lot of satisfaction to tell you the truth.
I mean, for myself that, okay, I was able to create something
which student can access.
They actually do not have to buy the textbook if they don't want to.
There were some students who wanted to have a book for whatever reason.
So when I taught in T1 2023,
so I basically told them that, look, I have created this resource.
This is a free resource.
You can download it.
You can make a copy of it, you know, it is completely free.
But this is the book.
This is the prescribed textbook that I have, that I have been prescribing for the last couple of years.
But this is also there if you want to buy a book, you know, feel free to buy the book.
Because there were like few students who wanted to buy the book.
So, you know, so they have the freedom to buy the book if they want to.
LAUREN: And so with the new OER in place as the prescribed textbook,
what else changed in terms of how you were teaching the unit?
SAGARIKA: When I go to class for like, you know, let's say I'm going to class in week two,
as preparation, I used to like tell students to go through if I'm prescribing a textbook,
then I have to actually go through the pages of the book, right?
And to and prescribe to student that, okay, go, go over page 25 to 27.
And then 32 to 33.
Because it's all, you know, like in different space,
it's not a continuous thing that, okay, you read 25 to page 30 and your prep will be done.
So it was like, you know, for me to look for within the textbook,
which are the relevant pages.
And sometimes the relevant page would be like three, four chapters beyond.
Like I'm talking, I'm doing topic two in my lecture.
And the relevant content would come from chapter three, chapter five,
and chapter seven in the book, right?
Because they were like all scattered, scattered,
but it's probably organized from the point of view of the book, right?
I mean, because the authors of the book have something in mind that's how they have organized it.
But for me, prescribing is a bit hard, right?
Because I'm picking things from different chapters from different from the book.
In the context of OER, I can just say, okay, you just read chapter two from the OER,
because it has the complete package for week two content.
So prescribing to student, what they need to prepare before coming to class was a lot easier with OER.
LAUREN: Sounds like a lot less preparation for you.
SAGARIKA: Yeah, yeah, meaning I have already done my preparation by writing that OER, right?
I mean, I do not have to do additional preparation.
And in this case, I can just say that, okay, you go over chapter two of the OER,
and that would get you ready for whatever we are going to cover in week two.
LAUREN: Did you find that you were spending less time on the basics because they were in the OER?
SAGARIKA: Yeah, like given that I have written that OER, so I have a plan in my mind, right?
And I know that whenever I'm covering some concepts,
I know the associated content is there in the OER.
So, you know, I don't have to worry about it.
If they don't get it fully, they can go back to the OER and read it.
So, that way, you know, there was lesser amount of anxiety for me about, okay,
whether students are following this, whether they are going to get it.
And I am very big on that in a sense that, you know, if I'm teaching something,
and this actually varies from person to person, I am very, very particular
about our students getting what I'm teaching, right?
It's very important for me that what I'm teaching students should understand that,
because, you know, obviously, it's important and we are building future generation.
So, it's a big deal for me.
For me, having that mental peace that, yes, I have given them what they require
to do well to understand the concepts is very important.
So, that way, it gave me a lot of satisfaction.
LAUREN: I love this.
Did the experience of creating an OER and being sort of part of the open education space,
was that something that you were already pretty invested in?
Or did you learn a lot about open education through this process?
SAGARIKA: No, actually, yes.
I mean, I didn't know about OER until library colleagues told me about it.
So, I was always thinking about, you know, creating my own resources.
But, as you can understand it is, it could be a bit time consuming.
I wasn't actually aware of the idea of OER and everything,
but once I got to know from the library colleagues that, you know,
this is something that we can create, I just love the idea.
And now I'm very much familiar with the OER resources.
LAUREN: Has that experience changed the way that you teach at all?
SAGARIKA: Having the OER on the side gave me a lot of satisfaction in terms of
that, yes, I have built something which is relevant and targeted for the students that I am teaching.
That way, you can say that, you know, I can be more relaxed in the classroom.
I used to use a case study when I was teaching business finance.
So, that actually helped me focus more on the case study that I was doing.
Rather than, you know, worrying too much about whether they have enough resources
to actually understand this.
Because when you are using a case study, so there are some case study related, you know,
could be technical terms or, you know, because we are trying to understand a business, right?
So, there are different, many different aspects of the business.
Important thing is that what we always do in theory may not match in the practical setting.
So, I can actually spend more time on talking about what is happening in the practical context
and draw parallel to what we know from theory and what we actually see in the context of a real
business, right? And that would be difference. Having the OER actually helped me focus on the
practical aspect or how the concept is actually used in the business.
I could focus more on that rather than, you know, spending more time on the theory bit.
Because I know that the theory part is taken care of.
LAUREN: And are you hearing stories of impact that this OER is having beyond Deakin?
SAGARIKA: I don't know whether this 19,000 visitors are all from Deakin because my class size is
definitely not that big. Definitely it has been used beyond Deakin and that we can actually see
just from the stats, from the analytics of like how many page views and where it is referred.
I know that Deakin students know it's there, so they are not going to go to Google or, you know,
to chat GPT or, you know, anywhere else to search for concepts, right? So maybe others are searching
and that's how it's referring to the OER that we have.
LAUREN: Are you hearing yet from any other institutions or from colleagues who are sort of in industry at
OER? SAGARIKA: As I said that after I did the OER like I taught for a couple of years and then I moved away
from that subject, I haven't had an opportunity to hear from like people from industry or others
about the impact yet. LAUREN: So as you know, we are recording this podcast as part of a research project.
What do you think that these stories that you've told us today tell us about the impact that OER
have on learning and teaching? SAGARIKA: One important or noticeable effect I would see that
how students interact with the material. Instead of treating like a traditional book,
they appear to use it more as a reference resource returning to specific sections and particularly
around, you know, those are conceptually demanding and for example topics like risk and return in the
context of my unit or capital structure for example. What I have seen is that student frequently
comment about the accessibility of the language because it's written in plain language and they
appreciate that, you know, it is written in more direct and plain style which made the concepts
easier to follow compared with the textbook language. You saw that I talked about the analytics,
you know, of the OERs. The fact that the page views are very high, higher than the visitors,
number of visitors means that, you know, they are actively navigating through the material rather
than briefly landing on the page. That's what I would see what the impact of the, impact of the
OER in general. And that's what basically make it a very important accessible resource.
LAUREN: Wow. Anything else we can learn from your experience or your story, Sagarika?
SAGARIKA: What I would say is that the OER project that I did is actually reshape how I think about
teaching material. With the commercial textbook, you largely adopt your teaching around a fixed
Structure. Because sometimes you have the pressure, okay, this is the textbook I'm using.
Students are buying this textbook. So I have to somehow, you know, adjust with the way the
content is presented in the textbook just to make sure that I don't confuse the student further
because already the textbook is heavy and they have spent the money. So now I have to
adjust with how the content is presented in the textbook. And this is to make sure that I do
not confuse the students even further. But with OER, I can adopt the material around my teaching
and student needs. That made it particularly interesting that, you know, student engagement
patterns through the analytics that we see. And we see that repeated access to specific conceptual
modules. In this case, you know, risk and return is the most visited topic and then capital structure
is the next. I can see which are the difficult topics or difficult concept that student usually
struggle with. And when you see the concept that student find difficult, then it actually helps me
think about what can I do better next year so that it becomes even more easy for them to follow.
So that's a very important part of this OER because you can actually see in real time
where they are clicking the most, where they are in which topic they are visiting the most.
So you know where the pain point is at. LAUREN: Wow, I had not even thought about that.
That is a huge bonus. My last question for you, Sagarika, before we wrap up,
do you have a favorite thing about your OER? SAGARIKA: I really like that few of the topics which are very
densely presented in a book, I could simplify it a lot. And I'm not saying that book should do
the same thing because it's probably not in their scope to make it easy because they are writing a book.
They are probably targeting all students together like irrespective of, you know, whether they're
undergrad or in other degrees or diplomas. But the fact that I can only take the portion that I
want students to learn at this stage because they have time to learn about it further when they go
to, when they do a higher degree. Doesn't matter how difficult it is, how difficultly it is presented in
the book, we could simplify it when we are writing an OER. More importantly, you know, let's risk and
return. It's a very important concept. Business finance students should learn about, or finance
students in general, should learn about risk and return. And even general community, if you think
about it, right, we all know irrespective of whether we are doing finance or not. This is a very
important concept that everybody should understand. If you simplify it via OER, then we are making sure
that this important concept is understood by many, many of us. LAUREN: Amazing. Sagarika, I have
loved this conversation with you. I want to thank you so much for spending this time with me today
sharing your stories of openness. SAGARIKA: Thank you, thank you Lauren. Thank you very much and I really
appreciate the opportunity of being part of this podcast. LAUREN: And that's all from us today. Thank you
very much for listening to stories of openness. Stories of openness is a limited series from the
Open Education team at Deakin University Library. It's part of a research by podcast project
led by me, Lauren Halcomb0Smith with Angie Williamson, Danni Johnson and Eddie Pavuna. We choose
open wherever possible, including Audacity for editing, Castopod for hosting, and music by
Scott Holmes music. This podcast by Deakin University is licensed under a CC by NC license.
For more information and full acknowledgements, please see our show notes.
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