1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,400 [Music] 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:13,320 LAUREN: Hello and welcome to Stories of Openness, a limited series podcast created by the Open 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,080 Education team at Deakin University Library. 4 00:00:16,080 --> 00:00:18,860 My name is Lauren Halcomb-Smith and I'm your host. 5 00:00:18,860 --> 00:00:23,360 I'm a lecturer of Open Education at Deakin and I want to find out about the impact that 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:28,240 Open Educational Resources are having on learning and teaching at Deakin University. 7 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:33,880 OER are free textbooks and other learning materials that anyone can use, adapt, and share, 8 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:38,640 unlike traditional textbooks, which can be expensive and limited by copyright and licensing 9 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:39,640 restrictions. 10 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:44,040 In this series, I'm talking with Deakin academics as they share their stories of creating and 11 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:45,920 using Open Resources. 12 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:50,680 This podcast is part of a research project that uses podcasting as a research method, so 13 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,920 this conversation is both a podcast and open research data. 14 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:59,360 And I'm coming to you today from the beautiful traditional and unceded lands of the Wurundjeri 15 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:00,360 people. 16 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:05,400 I gratefully acknowledge them as the traditional custodians of these land, seas, and skies and 17 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:11,880 recognise that this has been a place of learning, teaching, and rich conversation for millennia. 18 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:17,040 Here with me today is the wonderful Dr. Sarah Steen, Senior Lecturer and Course Director 19 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:22,280 at Deakin Business School, and author of Workplace Roleplay Scenarios. 20 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:27,760 Sarah is a passionate and innovative educator with over 15 years experience across areas 21 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,840 of human resource management, organisational behaviour, and management. 22 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:37,320 Sarah's passion and innovation really come through so strongly in her open textbook. 23 00:01:37,320 --> 00:01:42,240 Workplace Roleplay Scenarios was published in 2023, and it's all about helping students 24 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:48,160 navigate difficult conversations, negotiation, and mediation in the workplace. 25 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:49,160 Welcome Sarah. 26 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:50,160 SARAH: Thank you so much. 27 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:51,160 Thank you for having me. 28 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:52,840 Have you been looking forward to this conversation? 29 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:53,840 LAUREN: Yes. 30 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:54,840 Me too. 31 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,880 I am so excited to hear about this OER, so let's get right into it. 32 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:03,080 Can you tell me the story of how you came to create an OER? 33 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:07,480 SARAH: I think to start with, I will say that I never intended to make one, right? 34 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:09,400 I didn't even know what an OER was. 35 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,720 I had no idea, I never heard the term before, I wasn't inspired by another OER. 36 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:19,960 I was in 2020, which still has all the negative nightmares around it, of course, and I was 37 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:25,640 given this new-ish unit called Workplace Conflict Resolution, and so as a unit chair, I was 38 00:02:25,640 --> 00:02:32,280 looking at the resources, and there wasn't really much there in terms of interactive workplace 39 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,800 related scenarios that students could actually engage with. 40 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,160 So there was a bit of a problem, there was a bit of a gap that I need to fill with respect 41 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,680 to having more real-life scenarios for students. 42 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,800 So I thought, okay, this is an opportunity for me to develop some new ones and to bring 43 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:50,280 in some industry perspectives and to really ensure that the role plays they were doing in the 44 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:55,520 class, because it was a skills-based unit, so they did need to have some semi-real life scenarios 45 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,800 to work with, was actually going to be relevant for them. 46 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,640 And so I knew that there was a niche that I could fill there, and so I started to think 47 00:03:02,640 --> 00:03:06,680 about some ideas in terms of what the role plays might look like. 48 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:13,400 And then around 2021, I believe it was, was when the first grants came out for OERs, 49 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,320 and so we just got an email, and I was like, I wonder what this list could be about. 50 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:22,280 And so I did a bit of research on what OERs were, and just the principles and values behind 51 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,880 it really resonated with me, and I thought, wow, this is something I can create. 52 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:31,520 And when I initially started out, of course, it was designed for our wonderful Deakin students, 53 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:36,160 but I knew that the benefits in terms of what it could potentially mean for other students 54 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,920 outside Deakin could mean. 55 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:43,120 That was a very exciting prospect to feel like that we could impact the learning experience 56 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:44,400 of other students as well. 57 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,040 LAUREN: Can you tell me a little more about the unit that you were teaching? 58 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:49,040 SARAH: Yeah, sure. 59 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:55,400 So the unit, as I said, it's a skills-based unit, so it covers areas around difficult conversations, 60 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,880 negotiation, and mediation. 61 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,680 And so students are engaged in it, it's a two-hour weekly seminar. 62 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:06,160 So I take them through the theories, concepts, and ideas on a weekly basis, and then there is 63 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:11,080 opportunity in the seminars to actually engage in practising some of those skills. 64 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:16,640 So it's structured in a way that they spend seven weeks doing role plays. 65 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,680 Part of that, of course, is ensuring that the environment that we set up in the first 66 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:25,040 couple of weeks is creating that supportive environment for them to actually want to engage 67 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:26,520 in role plays. 68 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,600 Part of that, of course, and a huge big part of what the OER is about as well as how we actually 69 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,400 design that, how do we support that learning? 70 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,040 You know, what kind of resources do we provide them with? 71 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,320 And so that looks like sometimes providing them with a bit of a script. 72 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:43,840 But also, it was really, really important for me to ensure that there were reflective questions 73 00:04:43,840 --> 00:04:48,280 at the end of the role play, so it's not like they're just engaging in it and walk out the door. 74 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:52,800 We do a lot of work to make sure that once they've had that engagement in the role play, 75 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,520 that there's time to debrief in a group, you know, how do I think they went, where could 76 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:01,120 they improve, but then also coming back into a seminar type environment to actually debrief 77 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:02,120 as a group as well. 78 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,920 And that's where we see a lot of the key learnings happening, you know, when they're actually able 79 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,840 to say, look, I found it really tricky to navigate this part of the conversation. 80 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:13,600 And you know, if we're in a classroom environment or online, I like to use the whiteboards, get 81 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,520 them to think about, you know, what areas they can improve on. 82 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,680 And so really the role plays as part of that OER is that really starting point to really 83 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,160 help with those conversations in the classroom. 84 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:24,160 LAUREN: Is it an undergraduate course? 85 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:28,600 SARAH: Yes, sorry, it is undergraduate, yeah, it's across a couple of courses. 86 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:33,240 It's in the Bachelor of Human Resource Psychology course and also in the Bachelor of 87 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:34,240 Business. 88 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:35,240 LAUREN: Okay. 89 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:40,080 SARAH: So interestingly, we do get quite a few students engage in the unit who come from all different 90 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:41,080 parts of the university. 91 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,360 So it's not just always, you know, your business and commerce students. 92 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:45,360 LAUREN: Yeah. 93 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:46,360 Published in 2023. 94 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:47,360 SARAH: Yes. 95 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,880 LAUREN: So how many units are using the resource now? 96 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,800 SARAH: So there's just my unit that's using it, so it's just embedded in the one unit, but it's 97 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:55,800 the elective. 98 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,640 But it is, it is, so it's compulsory for some students and then others, they pick it up 99 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:00,640 as an elective. 100 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,320 LAUREN: So, do you know how many students are coming through every year? 101 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:09,000 SARAH: It does change a bit, of course, but usually our T2 intakes quite high, so we get about 300 102 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:10,000 students usually. 103 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:11,000 LAUREN: Wow. 104 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:12,280 SARAH: Yeah, so it's quite high numbers. 105 00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:14,000 LAUREN: Is it just offered the once in T2? 106 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:20,040 SARAH: So we've got T1 and T2 and T2 is just online and then T1, it's at Burwood, Geelong, and online, 107 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,080 so we have multiple offerings there. 108 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:23,080 LAUREN: Okay. 109 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,000 Tell me about the OER itself. 110 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:30,560 SARAH: The OER itself is divided into three different sections, so there's 15 role plays. 111 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,520 Some of them are smaller than others, you know, that's designed to start them off with a 112 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,880 smaller scenario than build two obviously bigger scenarios. 113 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:42,440 There is a little bit of info to start in the OER to kind of give some insight as to how 114 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,960 to kind of create that learning environment. 115 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,560 So things like doing an ice breaker is really important. 116 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,400 We spend at least two weeks getting students comfortable with each other before we start 117 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:55,840 the role plays in week three and there is some guides in terms of the instructor in terms 118 00:06:55,840 --> 00:06:57,840 of how to run the role plays. 119 00:06:57,840 --> 00:07:02,220 There are some scenarios that have different role play information. 120 00:07:02,220 --> 00:07:07,080 So for example, negotiation, you'd have two role players and there will of course be conflicting 121 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,360 information, so it kind of gives that role play environment. 122 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:14,080 And if there is an observer, there's some guides as to what the observer could be looking 123 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,680 for, but then also some questions in terms of the reflection questions at the end. 124 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:25,440 But it's all non-content specific, so anyone can use it and I'm sure we can get to that 125 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:26,440 later. 126 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,760 It has been picked up by other universities because of that and that was a deliberate choice 127 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,480 that I may when I embraced the nature of the OER. 128 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:37,840 I wanted it to be shared, I wanted it to be used around and as I said it's always going 129 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:43,440 to be for the Deakin students, that's where it started, but simple decisions made at the beginning 130 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:48,080 to really embrace the principles and values of OER has meant that it's been able to achieve 131 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:49,080 that. 132 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,280 LAUREN: It's so elegant in its simplicity. 133 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,200 I love what was the term that you just used before? 134 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:54,440 It's not content specific? 135 00:07:54,440 --> 00:08:01,080 SARAH: Yeah, not content specific, so it's not tied to any curriculum, and I think that was a very 136 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:06,440 strategic decision I made to really embrace what OER is about, and yeah, so anyone can pick 137 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:07,440 it up. 138 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,480 There's no, so for example, of course, they're really is only one way you can explain negotiation 139 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:16,000 theories right, but I didn't want it to be limited to course learning outcomes, unit 140 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:21,360 learning outcomes, and so for me personally, things change between years as well, but anyone 141 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,920 can pick it up, they can teach the process that they want students to approach in terms 142 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:31,180 of negotiations, and they can use that scenario to actually get students to apply what they've 143 00:08:31,180 --> 00:08:35,680 learned in the lecture or their readings, so that was a very deliberate decision I made 144 00:08:35,680 --> 00:08:36,680 at the beginning. 145 00:08:36,680 --> 00:08:41,560 LAURENl I love how it's really just, it's, for the most part, the bulk of the book is the scenarios 146 00:08:41,560 --> 00:08:45,040 themselves and the reflective questions, like that's what I mean when I say it's so 147 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:50,520 elegant in its simplicity, it's also beautiful to look at with pictures, and I know you put 148 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,600 in a lot of effort into making certain accessibility decisions. 149 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:55,600 SARAH: Yes. 150 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:56,600 LAUREN: What were those? 151 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,740 SARAH: I had had some experience with some students that were using things like readers and different 152 00:09:00,740 --> 00:09:06,560 programs as well, so even when I first took on this unit, we were, they were just the 153 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:12,080 resources were picked from all different textbooks, they weren't in formats that students could 154 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:16,640 actually access, and if they did have programs or things that they did need to use, they couldn't 155 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,280 feed in a PDF into what they were using at the time, I mean this was back in 156 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:21,280 twenty-twenty-one. 157 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,600 So the fact that it could be downloaded in PDF and it can run in those programs meant that 158 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:30,880 it was also accessible to a variety of people, being in that one resource as well that enables 159 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,360 you to zoom in and all those different features that come with it as well, was really, really 160 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,580 important with the design aspects. 161 00:09:36,580 --> 00:09:41,680 LAUREN: Tell me the story of how the OER was created, like what was that like? 162 00:09:41,680 --> 00:09:47,560 SARAH: It was interesting time, as I said, it was around COVID, and I was so ecstatic that I got 163 00:09:47,560 --> 00:09:53,100 the grant, which meant that we had a bit of a community at the time at Deakin around OERs 164 00:09:53,100 --> 00:09:56,620 as well, so it was a lot of resources I could tap into to get support around that. 165 00:09:56,620 --> 00:10:02,360 It did take, I got the grant in 2021, it took until 2023 to launch, I do blame COVID for 166 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:06,600 a little bit about that, but in terms of the design of it and thinking about what to put 167 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,680 into it, it did take a lot of thinking time. 168 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:15,320 So initially, I kind of jumped between ideas, so initially we was going to be like a textbook, 169 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,780 that was initially my idea, let's do a textbook about negotiation, then I decided I'm really 170 00:10:19,780 --> 00:10:24,140 just rewriting what's already there, so really wanted to tap into the roleplay situation. 171 00:10:24,140 --> 00:10:27,880 I couldn't find anything online at the time as well, like I was trying to look for, okay, 172 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:29,720 there must be some resources here. 173 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,640 I did have another colleague assist with a couple of the scenarios as well, and we were kind 174 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:38,240 of bouncing ideas off each other, and what I was able to do is because of course I was 175 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:43,140 teaching the unit at the time, and I guess it also goes back to the benefit of having an 176 00:10:43,140 --> 00:10:47,100 academic in a unit for a long period of time, and you can trial things. 177 00:10:47,100 --> 00:10:51,940 So before it even launched, we were trialing the roleplay scenarios in the classroom, just 178 00:10:51,940 --> 00:10:55,900 sort of seeing how they would go and what that would look like, and I have a little background 179 00:10:55,900 --> 00:11:01,660 in industry, drawing on some others’ ideas, and looking at some fair work cases, as well 180 00:11:01,660 --> 00:11:06,500 just to kind of get my head into some different examples we could use, that's what was able 181 00:11:06,500 --> 00:11:10,540 to sort of give me some inspiration to come up with what the students would sort of 182 00:11:10,540 --> 00:11:11,540 need. 183 00:11:11,540 --> 00:11:15,340 As a course director as well, I did kind of think about what would benefit students, there 184 00:11:15,340 --> 00:11:19,060 was a big thing about employability, making sure you know they're developing their skills 185 00:11:19,060 --> 00:11:24,560 in certain areas, and I think also I was very, very aware that the students in the classroom 186 00:11:24,560 --> 00:11:26,900 had limited workplace experience, right? 187 00:11:26,900 --> 00:11:30,420 So putting them in a roleplay, saying, right, you're about to act as a HR manager, this 188 00:11:30,420 --> 00:11:34,460 is a scenario off you go, was a very, going to be a very daunting process. 189 00:11:34,460 --> 00:11:38,220 So having a think about how that would look in a classroom, and of course for our online 190 00:11:38,220 --> 00:11:43,220 cohort as well, because we run it online, was really, really, really important, also making 191 00:11:43,220 --> 00:11:47,620 sure that the scenarios weren't just that hierarchy type of arrangement. 192 00:11:47,620 --> 00:11:51,380 So not just having a HR manager and an employee, but it's like, you know, what are you going 193 00:11:51,380 --> 00:11:56,060 to do if a colleague comes to your office or chats you and is really having a really tough 194 00:11:56,060 --> 00:11:58,140 time, you know, how can we approach that as well? 195 00:11:58,140 --> 00:12:04,620 So providing that kind of variety of scenarios was important, and feedback, so I really 196 00:12:04,620 --> 00:12:07,100 made sure I got a lot of feedback from colleagues on it. 197 00:12:07,100 --> 00:12:11,260 I will be honest that initially some of my colleagues bore a little bit. 198 00:12:11,260 --> 00:12:15,540 I wouldn't say concerned, but they thought I was wasting my time. LAUREN: In doing an OER? 199 00:12:15,540 --> 00:12:20,960 SARAH: Yeah, in doing an OER, and I think that came down to just lack of knowledge and awareness 200 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:25,620 of what an OER was and its benefits, because many years ago, you know, the conversations 201 00:12:25,620 --> 00:12:30,180 were around, and this was, I would say partly because of what, you know, textbook publishers 202 00:12:30,180 --> 00:12:34,540 were pushing at the time as well, is that, you know, can we actually trust an OER 203 00:12:34,540 --> 00:12:37,380 or what kind of credibility does it actually have? 204 00:12:37,380 --> 00:12:41,340 And so I did find that I had a little bit of, I wouldn't call it pressure, because it wasn't 205 00:12:41,340 --> 00:12:43,500 that my manager was saying ‘you're wasting your time’. 206 00:12:43,500 --> 00:12:47,740 I called it a passion project, because I’m like, this is something that I want to design for 207 00:12:47,740 --> 00:12:52,260 my students, and for some colleagues, they did find it a little bit tricky to understand 208 00:12:52,260 --> 00:12:54,860 why I waste my time on doing something like this. 209 00:12:54,860 --> 00:13:00,420 So I do believe that has shifted now, and I think that might be part of, you know, me 210 00:13:00,420 --> 00:13:04,740 showing off what the OER has achieved in multiple domains, I've gone, "Oh, okay, this is 211 00:13:04,740 --> 00:13:08,460 what Sarah was doing, and this is, you know, the benefit from it," but I think the conversation 212 00:13:08,460 --> 00:13:13,780 has naturally changed a little bit over time, and I think when I explain some of the things 213 00:13:13,780 --> 00:13:18,480 that I did in the background to make sure that, you know, people gave feedback during the 214 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,620 time, it went through, it got picked up by MERLOT, and they did an external peer review 215 00:13:22,620 --> 00:13:23,620 on it. 216 00:13:23,620 --> 00:13:24,620 We didn't ask them to do it. 217 00:13:24,620 --> 00:13:29,860 And so just those little things along the way has helped add to a little bit of its 218 00:13:29,860 --> 00:13:34,700 credibility, but also it really is an OER in terms of application, right? 219 00:13:34,700 --> 00:13:38,580 So it's not like I'm talking about theories and things like that, it's like here's a scenario, 220 00:13:38,580 --> 00:13:42,780 and you can run with it, you can add research insights into what if you wish to do so, or 221 00:13:42,780 --> 00:13:45,180 different aspects regarding theories. 222 00:13:45,180 --> 00:13:48,860 Yeah, initially that would be something that I had a little bit of trouble with, people 223 00:13:48,860 --> 00:13:52,300 just understanding the why, and I said, "Well, it's my passion project, something I'm, 224 00:13:52,300 --> 00:13:57,100 you know, doing on the side for fun," and they’d go, "Oh, okay, and so I few of them now have, 225 00:13:57,100 --> 00:14:01,940 you know, from what it has achieved, have realised, 'Oh, okay, I can see why it's important 226 00:14:01,940 --> 00:14:02,940 and what it's achieving now.'" 227 00:14:02,940 --> 00:14:07,860 LAUREN: So you got a lot of peer review, it sounds like from colleagues, were you also getting feedback 228 00:14:07,860 --> 00:14:08,860 from students? 229 00:14:08,860 --> 00:14:13,940 SARAH: Yeah, so naturally throughout, when I was running through the role plays before they were 230 00:14:13,940 --> 00:14:18,660 published in the OER in 2023, I did informally get feedback from them. 231 00:14:18,660 --> 00:14:21,620 It was probably more of an informal process than like, "Okay, please fill out a form and tell 232 00:14:21,620 --> 00:14:25,380 me what you think," and that was just by the design of how I did it. 233 00:14:25,380 --> 00:14:29,860 Yeah, I was, you know, from observing what was happening, but also asking students, "Oh, 234 00:14:29,860 --> 00:14:31,140 what did you find tricky about that?" 235 00:14:31,140 --> 00:14:34,220 And that did naturally come out anyway when students are like, "Oh, I'm confused, why is 236 00:14:34,220 --> 00:14:35,220 this person doing this?" 237 00:14:35,220 --> 00:14:38,180 Or, you know, "Should I have said this, or I would like more context with that." 238 00:14:38,180 --> 00:14:42,860 So naturally that bit of feedback came through, and then, of course, at Deakin we have the formal 239 00:14:42,860 --> 00:14:47,500 evaluate system, and not that students got to that granular level, but overall, you 240 00:14:47,500 --> 00:14:50,820 know, students were able to give feedback on how they found the role plays, given that 241 00:14:50,820 --> 00:14:56,020 they are an extensive part of what they do. And it's really a training ground for them 242 00:14:56,020 --> 00:14:59,820 because their assignment, they need to do a role play and actually video themselves doing 243 00:14:59,820 --> 00:15:04,140 the role play, and the assignment is actually getting them to watch the role play back. 244 00:15:04,140 --> 00:15:07,540 I say to them, "It's very cringey, I know, but you're going to watch your back and actually 245 00:15:07,540 --> 00:15:09,260 reflect on how you went in that." 246 00:15:09,260 --> 00:15:13,500 So we don't mark the video, we mark their reflection, and what they did well and what 247 00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:15,020 they need to improve on. 248 00:15:15,020 --> 00:15:18,540 Because it all kind of is the training ground before they get their assignment, and there's 249 00:15:18,540 --> 00:15:23,820 that clear alignment between what they're doing, they're more likely to engage in it. 250 00:15:23,820 --> 00:15:28,660 And from attendance as well, like I have seen that students are more, you wouldn't think 251 00:15:28,660 --> 00:15:32,180 because you're doing role plays and like who wants to do that, but we have quite high 252 00:15:32,180 --> 00:15:37,460 attendance in this unit compared to others, and just from a course perspective as well, 253 00:15:37,460 --> 00:15:42,380 the unit is always on top in terms of the student feedback, the formal student evaluation 254 00:15:42,380 --> 00:15:43,380 feedback. 255 00:15:43,380 --> 00:15:46,660 And people are surprised by that, and it's like, well, you know, if you're sitting in 256 00:15:46,660 --> 00:15:50,180 class, you're just doing Q and A, and then I'm, you know, students actually doing something, 257 00:15:50,180 --> 00:15:53,300 you're engaged in something, you know, they actually take a lot of value for that. 258 00:15:53,300 --> 00:15:57,620 And I think when we're having issues around, you know, students attending and what's in 259 00:15:57,620 --> 00:16:02,300 it for them, I am creating an environment where they're able to develop those skills and 260 00:16:02,300 --> 00:16:05,140 it actually is going to be beneficial for them moving forward. 261 00:16:05,140 --> 00:16:08,420 I do see differences in that from a course director’s perspective as well. 262 00:16:08,420 --> 00:16:12,060 LAUREN: And how much of that positive feedback that you're seeing in the evaluate surveys or 263 00:16:12,060 --> 00:16:17,500 even just observing in the classroom or the online classroom, do you put down to the OER? 264 00:16:17,500 --> 00:16:22,620 SARAH: I would say majority, because, you know, it's the feedback I receive. 265 00:16:22,620 --> 00:16:26,660 A lot of it is, you know, loved the role play scenarios, it was really engaging. 266 00:16:26,660 --> 00:16:30,100 I can see how these skills I'm developing is, you know, going to be helpful for me in 267 00:16:30,100 --> 00:16:31,100 the future. 268 00:16:31,100 --> 00:16:35,540 I have got stories of students who are using the skills they're learning right now in 269 00:16:35,540 --> 00:16:39,540 their workplaces as well, and they've reached out to me and shared different bits and pieces. 270 00:16:39,540 --> 00:16:43,620 So, yeah, I would say the substantial part of the OER does contribute to that positive 271 00:16:43,620 --> 00:16:49,780 feedback in the evaluates, which is great to see that all that work in 2020 paid off. 272 00:16:49,780 --> 00:16:52,260 It was fun, as I said, it was my passion project. 273 00:16:52,260 --> 00:16:56,700 LAUREN: We weren’t all making sourdough! 274 00:16:56,700 --> 00:17:01,180 What other impact are you seeing the OER having on learners? 275 00:17:01,180 --> 00:17:04,860 SARAH: In terms of the learners, so as I said, you know, it's very clearly in evaluates, in terms 276 00:17:04,860 --> 00:17:07,980 of the feedback that I'm receiving that they're enjoying that. 277 00:17:07,980 --> 00:17:13,500 Overall, not to sort of spend too much time looking at the data, but there also is a very clear 278 00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:18,420 point of when the OER got introduced in the unit in terms of student success. 279 00:17:18,420 --> 00:17:22,700 So, that's like the hardcore data that we like to look at to kind of demonstrate that. 280 00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:27,180 So, apart from that, apart from a student's feedback, and that's obviously really important, 281 00:17:27,180 --> 00:17:29,300 like that's the stuff we want to want to see. 282 00:17:29,300 --> 00:17:34,300 I think one thing that kind of surprised me a little bit, and I don't like to say because 283 00:17:34,300 --> 00:17:39,060 it sounds like I didn't have much faith in the OER, but just how it's impacted students 284 00:17:39,060 --> 00:17:40,620 outside Deakin, right? 285 00:17:40,620 --> 00:17:44,540 So, I will get emails from students saying, "Thank you so much. 286 00:17:44,540 --> 00:17:47,540 I really enjoyed this seminar on the mediation scenario. 287 00:17:47,540 --> 00:17:51,780 You know, you wouldn't believe it, but I'm now having to conduct a mediation in my workplace 288 00:17:51,780 --> 00:17:56,380 right now, and I'm literally applying all the things that I'm practicing in the classroom 289 00:17:56,380 --> 00:17:57,780 into my role right now." 290 00:17:57,780 --> 00:17:59,780 LAUREN: It's every teacher's dream. 291 00:17:59,780 --> 00:18:00,780 SARAH: I know! 292 00:18:00,780 --> 00:18:05,020 And I get these emails just out of the blue and I'm like, "Oh my gosh”, like, you know, 293 00:18:05,020 --> 00:18:09,220 and I'm just so thankful that they share these situations with me, like to actually, you 294 00:18:09,220 --> 00:18:11,900 know, reach out to me and go, "Oh, this is what I'm doing, and thank you so much." 295 00:18:11,900 --> 00:18:16,180 And there's been quite a few of those cases, so that was a mediation example. 296 00:18:16,180 --> 00:18:21,260 I had one mature-aged student who in a workplace was going through a really tricky time with 297 00:18:21,260 --> 00:18:23,780 having to give warnings to staff and things like that. 298 00:18:23,780 --> 00:18:28,340 And so, we had just finished the portion around looking at difficult conversations, 299 00:18:28,340 --> 00:18:30,180 and how do you navigate that? 300 00:18:30,180 --> 00:18:34,620 And so, she was like, "I didn't think," like, she was even surprised herself that, you 301 00:18:34,620 --> 00:18:38,780 know, she'd be learning alongside having these workplace issues and actually being able 302 00:18:38,780 --> 00:18:43,420 to apply what she was learning at that very moment into those scenarios in her workplace 303 00:18:43,420 --> 00:18:44,420 environment. 304 00:18:44,420 --> 00:18:48,220 There's been a few examples where students have actually reached out and given me some 305 00:18:48,220 --> 00:18:52,980 insight as to the impacts there, and that's just, yeah, it's the best. 306 00:18:52,980 --> 00:18:53,980 We design these things. 307 00:18:53,980 --> 00:18:58,020 We put so much time and effort into creating these really cool environments for 308 00:18:58,020 --> 00:19:02,740 students to learn in, and you'd hope that they would take a little bit away, but then when 309 00:19:02,740 --> 00:19:06,700 you get those stories and things coming through about what they're doing in their workplace, 310 00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:10,860 and you go, "Okay, this is, yeah,” it's really had an impact in that kind of regard, and 311 00:19:10,860 --> 00:19:14,580 I just go tick, tick, tick, tick, and I save the email and put it in my positive student 312 00:19:14,580 --> 00:19:17,860 feedback folder, and if I'm having a bad day, I'll read that email and go, "Oh, that's 313 00:19:17,860 --> 00:19:18,860 right. 314 00:19:18,860 --> 00:19:19,860 We're making a difference here." 315 00:19:19,860 --> 00:19:23,180 So, yeah, those are really, really special moments when you get those emails coming 316 00:19:23,180 --> 00:19:24,180 through. 317 00:19:24,180 --> 00:19:29,140 LAUREN: You've set a really high bar when students are actually going out of their way to send 318 00:19:29,140 --> 00:19:34,660 you an email after they've graduated to tell you, you're still in my mind. 319 00:19:34,660 --> 00:19:39,300 You are still making a difference to me, even though it's been however many years, that's 320 00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:40,300 incredible. 321 00:19:40,300 --> 00:19:41,300 SARAH: Thank you. 322 00:19:41,300 --> 00:19:43,560 Yeah, it's really nice. 323 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:44,640 It's really nice. 324 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:49,420 LAUREN: Were there any challenges that students experienced with the OER or anything negative at 325 00:19:49,420 --> 00:19:50,420 all? 326 00:19:50,420 --> 00:19:56,300 SARAH: I wouldn't put it down to the OER itself, but obviously the OER is filled with role plays 327 00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:57,300 and things like that. 328 00:19:57,300 --> 00:20:01,820 So, naturally, for students, it's can be very confronting when they're engaging in their 329 00:20:01,820 --> 00:20:02,820 role play. 330 00:20:02,820 --> 00:20:05,140 So, I wouldn't put it down to, "Oh, this is the OER's fault." 331 00:20:05,140 --> 00:20:07,940 By default, what did actually entails 332 00:20:07,940 --> 00:20:11,980 Students do get a little bit anxious and things like that, and we spend like two weeks making 333 00:20:11,980 --> 00:20:16,340 sure students feel comfortable and safe in the environment, and I think one thing that 334 00:20:16,340 --> 00:20:21,440 I wouldn’t say had to do, but I've had the joy in being able to do is obviously as I grow 335 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:26,680 and I've taken on quite a few roles of last couple of years, is that I can't be in every 336 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:27,680 classroom. 337 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,980 I can't be creating these environments as much as I love it, and I try to make sure I'm 338 00:20:31,980 --> 00:20:33,780 at least one seminar. 339 00:20:33,780 --> 00:20:39,420 I need to start passing on to another person or another teaching team, so I've been fortunate 340 00:20:39,420 --> 00:20:45,820 that I've had two or three staff members who have come into my unit and I have trained 341 00:20:45,820 --> 00:20:48,180 them up in how to actually facilitate it as well. 342 00:20:48,180 --> 00:20:52,820 So, that's been good for their growth as well, but also looking, you know, long-term and making 343 00:20:52,820 --> 00:20:54,780 sure I'm sharing my learnings with students. 344 00:20:54,780 --> 00:20:59,060 So, while that in itself has been, I wouldn't call it a challenge, right, an opportunity 345 00:20:59,060 --> 00:21:03,500 to train up others, and again, it's not about the criticism of the OER, but just by the 346 00:21:03,500 --> 00:21:09,100 very nature of having role plays, students can be quite anxious and worried about it in 347 00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:12,100 terms of what that means for their learning in the classroom, and because of, of course, 348 00:21:12,100 --> 00:21:13,100 it's an assessment, right? 349 00:21:13,100 --> 00:21:17,060 So, the first lecture I'm saying, I know you all want to leave the door right now, but 350 00:21:17,060 --> 00:21:18,300 this is what we do in this unit. 351 00:21:18,300 --> 00:21:23,340 We have these, you know, three to seven weeks of role plays, and I talk about the OER, and 352 00:21:23,340 --> 00:21:27,060 I say, look, I've designed this for you, and I really introduce it to them and talk about 353 00:21:27,060 --> 00:21:28,060 what it's about. 354 00:21:28,060 --> 00:21:33,260 They're always smiling, oh, you know, our unit chair’s actually designed something for us, 355 00:21:33,260 --> 00:21:36,380 and so talk about, you know, how we're going to integrate that into the classroom and 356 00:21:36,380 --> 00:21:37,380 then what that means. 357 00:21:37,380 --> 00:21:42,940 So yeah, I wouldn't say there's been too many negative things in terms of the OER. 358 00:21:42,940 --> 00:21:46,700 LAUREN: I'm thinking about what you're saying from the perspective of learning design, which I've 359 00:21:46,700 --> 00:21:51,540 done a little bit of in my career, and what I'm actually hearing is that by creating an 360 00:21:51,540 --> 00:21:57,580 OER with the scenarios for the learners in this unit, you are actually creating a more 361 00:21:57,580 --> 00:22:02,700 consistent learning experience for the learners from offering to offering and 362 00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:07,980 cohort to cohort, and recognising that you can't be in every single unit. 363 00:22:07,980 --> 00:22:12,620 But we still have the students who are going through the program are getting a more consistent 364 00:22:12,620 --> 00:22:18,140 experience because the scenarios are so detailed and they're structured in such a way with 365 00:22:18,140 --> 00:22:22,340 the reflective questions that I think it just facilitates a greater level of consistency. 366 00:22:22,340 --> 00:22:26,220 SARAH: Yeah, I would really agree with that, and I have had feedback from the team that I've 367 00:22:26,220 --> 00:22:29,300 helped train, say, those very same things, right? 368 00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:33,220 And they've found that that has naturally provided that structure in order to facilitate it 369 00:22:33,220 --> 00:22:34,820 because it is quite different. 370 00:22:34,820 --> 00:22:39,060 You know, it's not running role plays for so many weeks, and again, making sure that 371 00:22:39,060 --> 00:22:44,740 how I facilitate what I want to do is captured in the OER, but also that they can be passed 372 00:22:44,740 --> 00:22:45,740 on is important. 373 00:22:45,740 --> 00:22:49,220 So yeah, that's been a really important part in terms of looking long term as well because 374 00:22:49,220 --> 00:22:53,260 I hope that I'm making more OERs and doing all different things. 375 00:22:53,260 --> 00:22:56,940 So I can't be in every single classroom as much as I really want to be. 376 00:22:56,940 --> 00:23:03,140 LAUREN: It's like you distilled your strength into this OER, and you've left it there for others 377 00:23:03,140 --> 00:23:07,940 to use, and then they will contribute their strengths in different ways, and the offering 378 00:23:07,940 --> 00:23:09,540 will become stronger and stronger. 379 00:23:09,540 --> 00:23:10,540 SARAH: And hey, 380 00:23:10,540 --> 00:23:13,180 they could even contribute a few role plays in the future. 381 00:23:13,180 --> 00:23:14,180 LAUREN: Yeah. 382 00:23:14,180 --> 00:23:18,580 So you've already talked about the impact that it's sort of having in terms of more consistent 383 00:23:18,580 --> 00:23:21,260 teaching, if I’m hearing that correctly. 384 00:23:21,260 --> 00:23:26,900 What other stories about the impact on teaching practice, yours or others, do you have to share? 385 00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:30,920 SARAH: Something that I didn't anticipate that just came with design in the OER was just thinking 386 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:35,220 about the accessibility of it, the inclusivity, and all those design elements that we need 387 00:23:35,220 --> 00:23:36,820 to consider when we actually create it. 388 00:23:36,820 --> 00:23:42,460 And so I think by the very nature of what an OER is designed to do, that naturally, I wouldn't 389 00:23:42,460 --> 00:23:45,940 say forced me, but it really encouraged me to think about, okay, well, I'm going to be doing 390 00:23:45,940 --> 00:23:46,940 this OER. 391 00:23:46,940 --> 00:23:47,940 What does this mean for learners? 392 00:23:47,940 --> 00:23:51,700 How can we make sure it's accessible to a whole wide range of people? 393 00:23:51,700 --> 00:23:55,980 In terms of my own practice, that reflection piece did come through quite strongly early 394 00:23:55,980 --> 00:23:57,420 on when I was designing it. 395 00:23:57,420 --> 00:24:01,340 And I think, you know, I've spoken about in terms of helping others in terms of bringing 396 00:24:01,340 --> 00:24:06,180 in them and teaching team, but also sharing with colleagues, I think, as well, has been important. 397 00:24:06,180 --> 00:24:10,580 So not just necessarily my teaching practice, but others saying what I've been able to do 398 00:24:10,580 --> 00:24:14,300 with the OER in the classroom and how I've designed it around, you know, embedding it in 399 00:24:14,300 --> 00:24:17,900 the classroom, what the role plays look like, how they need to be facilitated. 400 00:24:17,900 --> 00:24:22,700 I think that's also impacted others’ teaching practice to think about what they can do as 401 00:24:22,700 --> 00:24:23,700 well. 402 00:24:23,700 --> 00:24:24,700 LAUREN: Back up a bit. 403 00:24:24,700 --> 00:24:29,940 I think I just heard you say that in creating an experiential learning resource, you had your own experiential 404 00:24:29,940 --> 00:24:30,940 learning. 405 00:24:30,940 --> 00:24:31,940 By learning. 406 00:24:31,940 --> 00:24:32,940 SARAH: Yes! 407 00:24:32,940 --> 00:24:33,940 LAUREN: You learned about accessibility. 408 00:24:33,940 --> 00:24:36,020 You learned new teaching skills by doing the skills. 409 00:24:36,020 --> 00:24:37,020 SARAH: Yes. 410 00:24:37,020 --> 00:24:38,020 I very much did. 411 00:24:38,020 --> 00:24:41,020 It's funny because yes, I was designing the role plays at the time and yes, learning at 412 00:24:41,020 --> 00:24:42,020 the time. 413 00:24:42,020 --> 00:24:46,700 LAUREN: You were saying that your colleagues around you also sort of has impacted their teaching 414 00:24:46,700 --> 00:24:52,540 practice because they are perhaps more open to OER or more open to role play scenarios 415 00:24:52,540 --> 00:24:55,420 or reflective practice or some combination of... 416 00:24:55,420 --> 00:24:56,420 SARAH: Yeah. 417 00:24:56,420 --> 00:24:57,420 I would say a combination. 418 00:24:57,420 --> 00:25:01,940 And again, you know, during what I said about earlier, there was an initial from some colleagues, 419 00:25:01,940 --> 00:25:03,460 why are you doing this? 420 00:25:03,460 --> 00:25:07,740 But from what they've seen now in terms of what it's been able to achieve and just what 421 00:25:07,740 --> 00:25:10,980 I've been able to achieve with students in the classroom, and I do share these stories 422 00:25:10,980 --> 00:25:14,620 about what I've heard from students in terms of how they're using it in their workplaces 423 00:25:14,620 --> 00:25:15,940 and things like that. 424 00:25:15,940 --> 00:25:19,340 And so it's gotten them to think about, okay, well, what could they do in their classroom 425 00:25:19,340 --> 00:25:25,380 to make it a bit more engaging or a bit more accessible or even just more broadly, okay? 426 00:25:25,380 --> 00:25:29,580 What an OER is, how they could use it in their own teachings as well. 427 00:25:29,580 --> 00:25:32,660 I have seen and heard some of those points as well. 428 00:25:32,660 --> 00:25:37,460 LAUREN: What's it like to teach with this resource compared to when you didn't have this resource? 429 00:25:37,460 --> 00:25:42,980 SARAH: So previously, as I said, I was drawing from, I don't know, eight or ten textbooks in terms 430 00:25:42,980 --> 00:25:49,180 of pulling resources and there was already some existing role plays, but they weren't 431 00:25:49,180 --> 00:25:50,180 workplace specific. 432 00:25:50,180 --> 00:25:53,980 One was about like negotiating an island or something like, we know, we want to make sure 433 00:25:53,980 --> 00:25:55,460 they're relevant for students, right? 434 00:25:55,460 --> 00:25:59,340 For some weeks, it was, you know, okay, we have four resources, we're also going to look 435 00:25:59,340 --> 00:26:00,340 at this week, okay? 436 00:26:00,340 --> 00:26:04,860 Here's the link to go off to the library and back in the day, students would really 437 00:26:04,860 --> 00:26:07,260 like to purchase textbooks. 438 00:26:07,260 --> 00:26:10,180 And for some of them, we'll be saying Sarah, are you expecting us to purchase, you know, 439 00:26:10,180 --> 00:26:11,460 ten, fifteen textbooks? 440 00:26:11,460 --> 00:26:16,420 And of course, you know, they could to an extent, access from the library, but it made it more 441 00:26:16,420 --> 00:26:17,420 complex, right? 442 00:26:17,420 --> 00:26:22,380 And so I saw a need to have a resource that would capture everything that all the resources 443 00:26:22,380 --> 00:26:24,260 in one place that they could use. 444 00:26:24,260 --> 00:26:26,860 And of course, the OER was the perfect solution with that regard. 445 00:26:26,860 --> 00:26:32,420 So it is nice just having that one resource that students can go to rather than little bits 446 00:26:32,420 --> 00:26:34,540 and pieces from different textbooks. 447 00:26:34,540 --> 00:26:38,900 You know, if I also want to add or change it, it's very easily, I can very easily do that. 448 00:26:38,900 --> 00:26:41,660 And of course, that's one of the benefits of OER, right? 449 00:26:41,660 --> 00:26:46,060 LAUREN: So I'm imagining you sort of doing this hunter and gatherer method of collating course 450 00:26:46,060 --> 00:26:47,060 resources. 451 00:26:47,060 --> 00:26:49,740 So that must be a massive administrative burden. 452 00:26:49,740 --> 00:26:50,740 SARAH: Oh, yeah. 453 00:26:50,740 --> 00:26:55,020 It was back, you know, when I took on the unit and I was trying to put all these resources 454 00:26:55,020 --> 00:26:59,540 together, all different examples, it was, yeah, very time-consuming. 455 00:26:59,540 --> 00:27:00,540 It was all mismatched. 456 00:27:00,540 --> 00:27:02,500 They were all different formats as well. 457 00:27:02,500 --> 00:27:05,540 So that was the other thing, you know, all the formatting was different. 458 00:27:05,540 --> 00:27:08,700 They didn't necessarily have post-role play questions. 459 00:27:08,700 --> 00:27:12,100 And if they did, they didn't really make sense for the context of the scenario. 460 00:27:12,100 --> 00:27:13,980 Like I wanted students to think more broadly. 461 00:27:13,980 --> 00:27:16,980 So I was naturally needing to think about, all right, what would I ask students to reflect 462 00:27:16,980 --> 00:27:18,860 on for this scenario? 463 00:27:18,860 --> 00:27:21,300 So it was really haphazard initially. 464 00:27:21,300 --> 00:27:24,060 LAUREN: What do you do with all that extra time now? 465 00:27:24,060 --> 00:27:27,980 SARAH: Oh, I'm doing another OER! LAUREN: There we go. 466 00:27:27,980 --> 00:27:31,380 I was going ask you about that one, but we're going to work through these questions. 467 00:27:31,380 --> 00:27:36,700 I want to know whether there have been any unintended consequences on your teaching 468 00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:40,780 practice, any challenges in teaching with an OER? 469 00:27:40,780 --> 00:27:41,780 SARAH: It's a good question. 470 00:27:41,780 --> 00:27:46,260 LAUREN: Like you did talk about that pushback that you experienced before, that sounds challenging. 471 00:27:46,260 --> 00:27:50,580 SARAH: Initally, when others didn't necessarily say the benefit in it, and I think, as I said, 472 00:27:50,580 --> 00:27:56,460 I think it does come back to some of the negative conversations around OER's credibility, right? 473 00:27:56,460 --> 00:28:00,140 And this, I know it has changed, there has been, I have seen a lot more positivity around 474 00:28:00,140 --> 00:28:01,140 it now. 475 00:28:01,140 --> 00:28:05,860 And as I said, that's also why I designed it carefully knowing that feedback, the importance 476 00:28:05,860 --> 00:28:09,100 of feedback, right, from students, from colleagues when I was designing it. 477 00:28:09,100 --> 00:28:12,300 So I think that was a bit of a challenge at the time. 478 00:28:12,300 --> 00:28:14,900 But other than that, students have been really on board with it. 479 00:28:14,900 --> 00:28:17,980 I guess it's tricky because it's not like they're seeing it before and after. 480 00:28:17,980 --> 00:28:21,780 So I don't see like, okay, this is how the unit ran before, where you had to go to 10,000 481 00:28:21,780 --> 00:28:24,060 textbooks and it was all haphazard. 482 00:28:24,060 --> 00:28:27,860 And now you have this nice little shiny thing that's yours that we can use in the classroom. 483 00:28:27,860 --> 00:28:29,820 So they haven't actually seen the before and after. 484 00:28:29,820 --> 00:28:37,220 But in terms of challenges, I don't really think I can articulate what a challenge might 485 00:28:37,220 --> 00:28:38,220 be. 486 00:28:38,220 --> 00:28:39,220 I don't find it challenging. 487 00:28:39,220 --> 00:28:43,020 I think maybe just in terms of perhaps the teaching team that now do run a lot of 488 00:28:43,020 --> 00:28:47,940 seminars, just getting them across perhaps sharing the why for it as well has been important 489 00:28:47,940 --> 00:28:50,300 for them to understand why we have this resource. 490 00:28:50,300 --> 00:28:51,300 LAUREN: Yeah. 491 00:28:51,300 --> 00:28:52,300 SARAH: You know, that's been important. 492 00:28:52,300 --> 00:28:56,580 And I think one thing and this I guess comes back to the credibility aspect and I know 493 00:28:56,580 --> 00:28:58,940 I can go and change it and I should just do it tomorrow. 494 00:28:58,940 --> 00:29:04,460 But I probably should in the OER be clear about those processes I went through before it 495 00:29:04,460 --> 00:29:05,460 got developed. 496 00:29:05,460 --> 00:29:09,420 So all that feedback that I received during the actual creation of the OER, perhaps 497 00:29:09,420 --> 00:29:10,420 could go into that. 498 00:29:10,420 --> 00:29:14,740 I think that would make it a bit more transparent as to what that process went by, not just relying 499 00:29:14,740 --> 00:29:17,620 on the fact that an academic has put this together right. 500 00:29:17,620 --> 00:29:18,620 LAUREN: Yeah. 501 00:29:18,620 --> 00:29:19,620 SARAH: Actually detail that. 502 00:29:19,620 --> 00:29:22,420 So that has been that has made a my to do list for some time now. 503 00:29:22,420 --> 00:29:25,300 But I think yeah, and again I wouldn't call it a challenge, but perhaps again the teaching 504 00:29:25,300 --> 00:29:30,180 team just understanding the why because they weren't there at the time when I went through 505 00:29:30,180 --> 00:29:33,900 you know, the reasons behind why put the OER together and it's benefit. 506 00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:38,020 I would probably also say and this is probably this is definitely on me, but they perhaps 507 00:29:38,020 --> 00:29:42,140 don't also see the positive impact the OER has on students. 508 00:29:42,140 --> 00:29:45,060 Like they're in the classroom and they can see it in terms of the role plays and things 509 00:29:45,060 --> 00:29:49,100 like that, but you know, the emails that I get from students that have been in my class, 510 00:29:49,100 --> 00:29:53,780 you know, I could do a better job in terms of sharing that so they also see what the impact 511 00:29:53,780 --> 00:29:55,180 is beyond the classroom. 512 00:29:55,180 --> 00:29:58,940 And if a student that was in their class did email me to let me know, of course, I'd pass 513 00:29:58,940 --> 00:30:03,380 it on, but I think I could probably do a better job in just sharing the impact it is having 514 00:30:03,380 --> 00:30:04,380 beyond taking classroom. 515 00:30:04,380 --> 00:30:05,380 LAUREN: Yeah. 516 00:30:05,380 --> 00:30:09,380 So we're spending a little bit of extra time sort of trying to generate some buy-in from 517 00:30:09,380 --> 00:30:14,020 your teaching team around the OER just because it's an OER and not a traditional textbook. 518 00:30:14,020 --> 00:30:19,260 SARAH: Yeah, that's a very good way to summarize. 519 00:30:19,260 --> 00:30:21,420 LAUREN: What is the other impact with the OER is having? 520 00:30:21,420 --> 00:30:25,820 Do you have any stories about your hearing from beyond Deakin about the OER? 521 00:30:25,820 --> 00:30:30,060 SARAH: So I touched on earlier about students, you know, reaching out and letting me know about 522 00:30:30,060 --> 00:30:34,460 how the OER in terms of the role plays skill development has positively impacted them 523 00:30:34,460 --> 00:30:35,460 in the workplace now. 524 00:30:35,460 --> 00:30:39,580 And of course, that's amazing, it's good to hear up, but there has been a few things that 525 00:30:39,580 --> 00:30:44,340 have come out where I have found out information about just the impact of the OER is having. 526 00:30:44,340 --> 00:30:50,140 So one example was I had a student who actually didn't do this unit that the OER is connected 527 00:30:50,140 --> 00:30:51,140 to. 528 00:30:51,140 --> 00:30:54,300 So she was in one of my other classes and she works in the government. 529 00:30:54,300 --> 00:30:56,060 We'll just say that. 530 00:30:56,060 --> 00:31:01,860 And what had happened was, she was trying to, I think, was designing some training programs. 531 00:31:01,860 --> 00:31:05,540 And so a manager said, "Look, we need to train up some of our managers here. 532 00:31:05,540 --> 00:31:10,180 I want you to put together a training program and it's got to be around difficult conversations. 533 00:31:10,180 --> 00:31:11,740 I found a resource online. 534 00:31:11,740 --> 00:31:12,740 You can use it. 535 00:31:12,740 --> 00:31:16,260 You use some of the information in there and you're to take that and design it." 536 00:31:16,260 --> 00:31:21,300 So the manager passes on the resource and the student was like, "Oh my gosh, this is 537 00:31:21,300 --> 00:31:24,900 my Deakin University academic I've had in one unit. 538 00:31:24,900 --> 00:31:29,340 I didn't know she had written an OER”, so it was my OER that the manager had passed on 539 00:31:29,340 --> 00:31:30,340 to a Deakin student. 540 00:31:30,340 --> 00:31:32,700 It was a Deakin student at the time in one of my other classes. 541 00:31:32,700 --> 00:31:35,180 So she knew me from another unit. 542 00:31:35,180 --> 00:31:36,860 And she took the time to write my name out. 543 00:31:36,860 --> 00:31:41,700 I was like, "I just have to let you know Sarah, your OER is having impact outside Deakin 544 00:31:41,700 --> 00:31:42,700 classroom." 545 00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:47,380 And I tell the other students as well a couple of things I do in my other units. 546 00:31:47,380 --> 00:31:52,700 So they're well aware that this OER exists, but she didn't, it came from her manager. 547 00:31:52,700 --> 00:31:55,140 And she's like, "Yeah, I just want to let you know that it's having an impact and I'm 548 00:31:55,140 --> 00:31:59,900 using it to some of the scenarios to put it in a training program so we can train 549 00:31:59,900 --> 00:32:03,340 our managers about different conversations and all this kind of thing and just want to 550 00:32:03,340 --> 00:32:04,340 absolutely let you know." 551 00:32:04,340 --> 00:32:06,140 And I was like, "Oh my gosh." 552 00:32:06,140 --> 00:32:10,380 So yeah, so that's just one little example that it's getting used in a government at the 553 00:32:10,380 --> 00:32:11,380 moment. 554 00:32:11,380 --> 00:32:13,580 So that was really, really cool to hear. 555 00:32:13,580 --> 00:32:17,820 Because initially, when I was designing OER, it was for students, it was for our Deakin 556 00:32:17,820 --> 00:32:18,820 students. 557 00:32:18,820 --> 00:32:22,700 And I guess it comes back to that decision, right, about making it non-content-specific. 558 00:32:22,700 --> 00:32:25,100 And then it meant that anyone could use it. 559 00:32:25,100 --> 00:32:29,420 I didn't anticipate that the government would be using it and industry professionals, 560 00:32:29,420 --> 00:32:32,900 but by the very nature of the OER, of course they can and it was applicable to what they 561 00:32:32,900 --> 00:32:33,900 were doing. 562 00:32:33,900 --> 00:32:39,260 So that was just one little story where I thought, "Oh my gosh, that was a really, really cool 563 00:32:39,260 --> 00:32:40,260 example." 564 00:32:40,260 --> 00:32:44,540 And even just to reach out to let me know, it was just like, "Oh, thank you." 565 00:32:44,540 --> 00:32:46,020 So that was really, really cool. 566 00:32:46,020 --> 00:32:48,180 And then it's had a lot of visitors. 567 00:32:48,180 --> 00:32:51,140 There's been over 6,000 visitors to the OER. 568 00:32:51,140 --> 00:32:53,860 And I think one of the really good things, of course, were the data that we get. 569 00:32:53,860 --> 00:32:57,220 We can kind of see what universities are accessing it and things like that. 570 00:32:57,220 --> 00:33:00,780 And so then I'll have a look if I have access to those websites and things, but there has 571 00:33:00,780 --> 00:33:04,700 been quite a few Australian universities and international universities that are accessing 572 00:33:04,700 --> 00:33:05,700 it. 573 00:33:05,700 --> 00:33:09,300 And then we can see that some of them have listed as course material in those universities, 574 00:33:09,300 --> 00:33:11,220 which is just so, so cool. 575 00:33:11,220 --> 00:33:16,400 And then I have one other example of, I had a German academic reach out because she was 576 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,180 looking for, she wanted an international negotiation scenario. 577 00:33:20,180 --> 00:33:23,940 And so, of course, the first thing that comes up when she types in workplace role play, 578 00:33:23,940 --> 00:33:26,940 workplace scenarios, was the OER. 579 00:33:26,940 --> 00:33:31,100 And she reached out to say, “just letting you know, I'm using it in our university” and gave 580 00:33:31,100 --> 00:33:35,620 me feedback about the structure of the role plays and how she's found it really beneficial. 581 00:33:35,620 --> 00:33:38,720 And just thought, she's like, "I just want you to know that we're using it in the classroom 582 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,580 and, you know, it's like Australian negotiation scenario in the international, international 583 00:33:43,580 --> 00:33:44,580 negotiation, you know?" 584 00:33:44,580 --> 00:33:45,580 So I was like, "Oh, thank you so much 585 00:33:45,580 --> 00:33:46,580 for letting me know." 586 00:33:46,580 --> 00:33:47,580 LAUREN: So cool. 587 00:33:47,580 --> 00:33:52,140 SARAH: So this also comes back to, and I know I've mentioned, this is on the other to-do list, but having 588 00:33:52,140 --> 00:33:56,660 almost like a feedback form or encouraging people at the end of the OER to reach out and 589 00:33:56,660 --> 00:33:57,820 say how they're using it. 590 00:33:57,820 --> 00:34:01,420 I think that would be very beneficial because this is just based on people just reaching 591 00:34:01,420 --> 00:34:05,740 out and telling me, I'm sure there's other others that are using it or I would hope so. 592 00:34:05,740 --> 00:34:08,500 And so that's been a couple of examples. 593 00:34:08,500 --> 00:34:12,820 And then I was able, I think I applied, yeah, expressed interest in writing a chapter 594 00:34:12,820 --> 00:34:15,420 for an Australian OER, that they were writing. 595 00:34:15,420 --> 00:34:19,740 So that is called Open education Down Under: Australian Case Studies. 596 00:34:19,740 --> 00:34:24,300 And so I put a pitch in to write a chapter about how I actually created the OER, so giving 597 00:34:24,300 --> 00:34:26,300 some lessons along the way. 598 00:34:26,300 --> 00:34:28,940 And that chapter actually referred to colleagues as well. 599 00:34:28,940 --> 00:34:33,140 So I have a colleague who goes, "Oh, I'm thinking about writing an OER or using OERs." 600 00:34:33,140 --> 00:34:36,900 And okay, okay, you know, look at this OER that I've contributed to and have a look at 601 00:34:36,900 --> 00:34:41,020 all the different stories from other creators, all those that have adapted OERs, because 602 00:34:41,020 --> 00:34:43,180 I say you don't have to create one from scratch. 603 00:34:43,180 --> 00:34:47,740 I found a little niche that needed filling, but for others, it might just be, you know, 604 00:34:47,740 --> 00:34:49,300 using an OER in the classroom. 605 00:34:49,300 --> 00:34:54,660 So that's been a really good resource that I've promoted. Apart from contributing a chapter 606 00:34:54,660 --> 00:34:57,260 to the Australian OER, 607 00:34:57,260 --> 00:35:01,540 I have had some opportunities to internationally share the OER, yeah. 608 00:35:01,540 --> 00:35:07,420 So there was a webinar where my OER and a medical OER were featured. 609 00:35:07,420 --> 00:35:11,060 It was a Pressbooks collaboration with Global Education. 610 00:35:11,060 --> 00:35:13,580 And so I was able to also share that through that. 611 00:35:13,580 --> 00:35:17,780 So yeah, lots of opportunities to share the OER, which I've been very, very grateful for. 612 00:35:17,780 --> 00:35:21,540 Not only that, just hearing about others’ OERs as well has been interesting to hear how 613 00:35:21,540 --> 00:35:22,540 they're using it. 614 00:35:22,540 --> 00:35:24,860 LAUREN: Two things came to mind while you were telling those stories. 615 00:35:24,860 --> 00:35:31,140 The first one is like, I'm thinking about any kind of teaching context that needs scenarios. 616 00:35:31,140 --> 00:35:34,700 Like for example, I used to teach English as a second language or English as an additional 617 00:35:34,700 --> 00:35:35,700 language. 618 00:35:35,700 --> 00:35:36,700 And I was always looking for scenarios. 619 00:35:36,700 --> 00:35:39,140 And sometimes you just don't want to come up with them off the dome. 620 00:35:39,140 --> 00:35:40,140 SARAH: Yeah. 621 00:35:40,140 --> 00:35:45,500 LAUREN: And so it's like, and I'm just thinking like the whole point of OER is adoption, adaptation, 622 00:35:45,500 --> 00:35:51,780 and creation, and because of the nature of the copyright license on your resource, means 623 00:35:51,780 --> 00:35:57,540 people can just take one or two scenarios and stick them where they need them without any 624 00:35:57,540 --> 00:35:59,700 legal or ethical implications. 625 00:35:59,700 --> 00:36:01,260 It's such a gift to the world. 626 00:36:01,260 --> 00:36:05,700 I'm also hearing when you're talking, and I'm looking at you, we're here in this room, 627 00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:10,740 and you're smiling so much, and you're telling me how satisfying all of this has felt. 628 00:36:10,740 --> 00:36:15,140 And just to go back to that impact that it's had on you as a teacher, it sounds like 629 00:36:15,140 --> 00:36:17,300 it's brought you a lot of gratification. 630 00:36:17,300 --> 00:36:18,300 SARAH: Yeah. 631 00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:19,300 Yeah. 632 00:36:19,300 --> 00:36:20,300 And I think I'm not going to lie. 633 00:36:20,300 --> 00:36:23,540 I mean, there was a lot of time and effort that went into the OER. 634 00:36:23,540 --> 00:36:28,860 I mean, it took two years to launch it, but that was also because I had the feedback process 635 00:36:28,860 --> 00:36:29,860 in it as well. 636 00:36:29,860 --> 00:36:32,100 So I'm not going to say I was slow at writing them. 637 00:36:32,100 --> 00:36:37,420 But yeah, I'm just, I'm thankful that it's paid off, and really for me, what I was looking 638 00:36:37,420 --> 00:36:42,780 for in terms of if it had been successful, is if students had really accepted it and 639 00:36:42,780 --> 00:36:45,220 to see them, you know, how it's impacted the students. 640 00:36:45,220 --> 00:36:46,700 So that would have been the number one. 641 00:36:46,700 --> 00:36:51,180 If I can come up with a resource that it will be beneficial for students, that they can 642 00:36:51,180 --> 00:36:55,300 use it, and they can, you know, develop all these wonderful skills in the classroom to 643 00:36:55,300 --> 00:36:56,940 help them with the learning in the unit. 644 00:36:56,940 --> 00:37:00,140 But then also if they can use it in their lives, that would be tick, tick, tick. 645 00:37:00,140 --> 00:37:03,460 And so everything else is just a welcomed bonus. 646 00:37:03,460 --> 00:37:08,860 I was fortunate that I could draw on the OER and its impact, particularly in the classroom, 647 00:37:08,860 --> 00:37:12,220 but also externally, as part of my promotion as well. 648 00:37:12,220 --> 00:37:15,300 So that was the one way to demonstrate the impact. 649 00:37:15,300 --> 00:37:20,700 And then last year I was very fortunate that I got the VC Award for outstanding contribution 650 00:37:20,700 --> 00:37:24,220 to education and employability for the OER. 651 00:37:24,220 --> 00:37:25,220 LAUREN: Congratulations. 652 00:37:25,220 --> 00:37:26,500 SARAH: Thank you so much. 653 00:37:26,500 --> 00:37:31,780 LAUREN: It sounds like it's had an impact on your teaching, both intrinsically. 654 00:37:31,780 --> 00:37:36,660 You know, it's just looking at you and hearing from you, it sounds like it was a very satisfying 655 00:37:36,660 --> 00:37:37,660 experience. 656 00:37:37,660 --> 00:37:42,620 The impact has been really positive on you in that intrinsic way, but also extrinsically. 657 00:37:42,620 --> 00:37:44,260 It's been really beneficial for your career. 658 00:37:44,260 --> 00:37:47,100 Like you want an award, you're getting all this recognition. 659 00:37:47,100 --> 00:37:48,100 That's pretty amazing. 660 00:37:48,100 --> 00:37:49,100 SARAH: Yeah. 661 00:37:49,100 --> 00:37:50,100 Thank you. 662 00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:51,100 Thanks. 663 00:37:51,100 --> 00:37:52,100 LAUREN: You're welcome. 664 00:37:52,100 --> 00:37:56,260 Let's sort of wrap up with a little bit of a slightly meta discussion. 665 00:37:56,260 --> 00:37:58,780 You've told me all these stories about your OER. 666 00:37:58,780 --> 00:38:04,260 And I'm obviously doing a research project, I'm trying to understand and explore the impact 667 00:38:04,260 --> 00:38:05,540 that OER can have. 668 00:38:05,540 --> 00:38:09,500 So what do you think your stories can tell us, like what are your interpretations of all of 669 00:38:09,500 --> 00:38:11,180 this, if any at all? 670 00:38:11,180 --> 00:38:15,020 SARAH: For me personally, and I get coming back to, you know, it's not just the results, it's 671 00:38:15,020 --> 00:38:18,740 all the additional results, all the additional benefits that come with that, right? 672 00:38:18,740 --> 00:38:23,700 So, you know, it encouraged me to look outside the box a little bit, to look at the students, 673 00:38:23,700 --> 00:38:28,460 to make sure that their needs are being met in the particular resource, to think about 674 00:38:28,460 --> 00:38:33,180 how I could replicate it and other educators could replicate it in their environments. 675 00:38:33,180 --> 00:38:35,580 It was more than just about having that free resource, right? 676 00:38:35,580 --> 00:38:39,540 It was about what it could actually really contribute in terms of their impact and their 677 00:38:39,540 --> 00:38:43,060 learning, more so than just, let's just have the resouce for students. 678 00:38:43,060 --> 00:38:46,660 LAUREN: So what I hear is it wasn't openness for the sake of openness. 679 00:38:46,660 --> 00:38:47,660 SARAH: Yeah. 680 00:38:47,660 --> 00:38:50,220 LAUREN: Openness was a mechanism that helped you solve practical problems. 681 00:38:50,220 --> 00:38:54,580 SARAH: Yes, that's a very good way to summarise it. 682 00:38:54,580 --> 00:38:57,460 LAUREN: Is there anything else that you would want to say about your OER? 683 00:38:57,460 --> 00:39:01,900 SARAH: I don't think so, but I would actually like just to say that, you know, through being 684 00:39:01,900 --> 00:39:06,380 involved in creating the OER, and initially, as I said, it was part of the first wave of 685 00:39:06,380 --> 00:39:11,260 grants at Deakin, and the support we got from the team, but then also all these additional 686 00:39:11,260 --> 00:39:13,540 other things that have come up along the way. 687 00:39:13,540 --> 00:39:16,940 It's been really nice to be part of like the OER community, because I feel like everyone's 688 00:39:16,940 --> 00:39:21,100 really so positive about what they're doing, and even just, you know, when I was, there 689 00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:26,260 was an international global tour that I was invited to speak about my OER, just hearing 690 00:39:26,260 --> 00:39:30,180 all the stories from everyone across the world about how they're using the OERs, and, 691 00:39:30,180 --> 00:39:33,940 you know, in some of those countries, like this is the only way they have access to things 692 00:39:33,940 --> 00:39:35,340 and access to education. 693 00:39:35,340 --> 00:39:40,500 So hearing all of that, and just how enthusiastic and passionate people are about education is 694 00:39:40,500 --> 00:39:44,340 what we're obviously here for, has been, I wouldn't say surprising, but it's been a really 695 00:39:44,340 --> 00:39:50,180 nice aspect to being part of the OER community, and what we're doing, so that's been something 696 00:39:50,180 --> 00:39:51,180 that I've enjoyed. 697 00:39:51,180 --> 00:39:52,180 LAUREN: Do you have a favourite part? 698 00:39:52,180 --> 00:39:53,180 A favourite scenario? 699 00:39:53,180 --> 00:39:54,180 A favourite picture? 700 00:39:54,180 --> 00:39:55,180 ... 701 00:39:55,180 --> 00:39:56,180 ... 702 00:39:56,180 --> 00:39:57,180 ... 703 00:39:57,180 --> 00:39:58,180 SARAH: That's very, very hard. 704 00:39:58,180 --> 00:39:59,180 I don't think I do. 705 00:39:59,180 --> 00:40:00,180 I think I’ll just say the whole thing. 706 00:40:00,180 --> 00:40:05,780 There is actually one scenario that students are required, there's a value-based system in 707 00:40:05,780 --> 00:40:10,860 the negotiation, and so what it does for students, it means that they can get a bit of a score, 708 00:40:10,860 --> 00:40:14,180 and so at the end of the negotiation, they can kind of compare and contrast who got the 709 00:40:14,180 --> 00:40:18,300 highest score, and who actually technically won, and that adds a bit of competitive element, 710 00:40:18,300 --> 00:40:21,620 and we don't do negotiation towards the end of the trimester, because we need students 711 00:40:21,620 --> 00:40:25,540 to be fully comfortable with working with each other, but that's always a really, really 712 00:40:25,540 --> 00:40:30,060 fun one for students to get involved in, and everyone's always having a great time with 713 00:40:30,060 --> 00:40:31,060 that one. 714 00:40:31,060 --> 00:40:33,140 The point-space system negotiation scenario. 715 00:40:33,140 --> 00:40:34,140 LAUREN: Gamifying of learning. 716 00:40:34,140 --> 00:40:35,140 SARAH: Yes. 717 00:40:35,140 --> 00:40:36,140 LAUREN: So effective. 718 00:40:36,140 --> 00:40:37,140 SARAH: Yes, it is. 719 00:40:37,140 --> 00:40:38,140 LAUREN: What is next for the OER? 720 00:40:38,140 --> 00:40:43,820 SARAH: The next step is developing an AI agent, which is going to tap into the OER. 721 00:40:43,820 --> 00:40:47,980 The way it's going to work is it's actually going to work with students, and students are 722 00:40:47,980 --> 00:40:51,620 going to be engaging with the AI agent, and it’s ultimately going to give them some feedback 723 00:40:51,620 --> 00:40:56,460 based on how I set up the AI, so I'm going to feed it information around looking things 724 00:40:56,460 --> 00:41:01,020 around the skills that they use, the processes they use, and the AI agent's going to give some 725 00:41:01,020 --> 00:41:04,540 feedback in terms of how to improve, which is fantastic, because I physically cannot 726 00:41:04,540 --> 00:41:09,900 be in every single role-play scenario giving feedback, and although we do train students 727 00:41:09,900 --> 00:41:14,620 to be observers and to give feedback in those role-play scenarios, this is another interesting 728 00:41:14,620 --> 00:41:17,940 element that we're going to add in terms of the AI perspectives. 729 00:41:17,940 --> 00:41:23,660 LAUREN: So if I understand correctly, this is a Deakin-only AI tool called Cogniti. 730 00:41:23,660 --> 00:41:28,980 It's embedded in their learning management system, so their online learning experience, 731 00:41:28,980 --> 00:41:33,940 and the only reason that you can train the AI using your resource is because it's an open 732 00:41:33,940 --> 00:41:34,940 education resource. 733 00:41:34,940 --> 00:41:35,940 SARAH: That's right, Lauren. 734 00:41:35,940 --> 00:41:36,940 That's right. 735 00:41:36,940 --> 00:41:40,180 LAUREN: So if you were using, say, a commercial textbook in your course, you would not be legally 736 00:41:40,180 --> 00:41:45,660 or ethically able to train your agent, your AI agent, using the course resources. 737 00:41:45,660 --> 00:41:46,660 SARAH: Absolutely. 738 00:41:46,660 --> 00:41:51,180 LAUREN: It sounds like it's also a different modality for students to access and engage with the 739 00:41:51,180 --> 00:41:52,180 course resource. 740 00:41:52,180 --> 00:41:56,000 You're essentially creating an AI version of your textbook, right? 741 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,000 SARAH: Yeah. 742 00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:58,000 LAUREN: So it's bringing that to life--- 743 00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:59,000 SARAH: And a little bit of me too. 744 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:00,000 LAUREN: And a little bit of you. 745 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:01,000 SARAH: Perfect. 746 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:02,000 Yes. 747 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:03,000 LAUREN: That is so super cool. 748 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:04,000 SARAH: Thank you. 749 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:05,000 LAUREN: Sarah, I'm going to wrap it up now. 750 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,900 I want to say thank you so much for sitting down with me today. 751 00:42:07,900 --> 00:42:11,740 I loved hearing your stories, for people who are tuning into the podcast, 752 00:42:11,740 --> 00:42:13,700 LAUREN: Sarah and I are both smiling-- 753 00:42:13,700 --> 00:42:14,700 SARAH: Yes. 754 00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:19,020 LAUREN: --a lot because it's been just a great chat. 755 00:42:19,020 --> 00:42:23,180 Stories of Openness is a limited series from the Open Education team at Deakin University 756 00:42:23,180 --> 00:42:24,180 Library. 757 00:42:24,180 --> 00:42:29,900 It's part of a research-by-podcast project led by me, Lauren Halcomb-Smith, with Angie Williamson, 758 00:42:29,900 --> 00:42:31,860 Danni Johnson, and Eddie Pavuna. 759 00:42:31,860 --> 00:42:37,100 We choose open, wherever possible, including Audacity for editing, Castopod for hosting, 760 00:42:37,100 --> 00:42:39,260 and music by Scott Holmes' music. 761 00:42:39,260 --> 00:42:45,540 This podcast by Deakin University is licensed under a CC-BY-NC 4.0 license. 762 00:42:45,540 --> 00:42:49,380 For more information and full acknowledgments, please see our show notes. 763 00:42:49,380 --> 00:42:50,540 Thank you so much. 764 00:42:50,540 --> 00:42:51,540 Thank you, Sarah. 765 00:42:51,540 --> 00:42:52,540 SARAH: Thanks, Lauren. 766 00:42:52,540 --> 00:42:53,540 LAUREN: We did it. 767 00:42:53,540 --> 00:42:54,540 SARAH: Yay! 768 00:42:54,540 --> 00:42:58,516 [BLANK_AUDIO]