[Music]
LAUREN: Hello and welcome to Stories of Openness, a limited series podcast created by the Open
Education team at Deakin University Library.
My name is Lauren Halcomb-Smith and I'm your host.
I'm a lecturer of Open Education at Deakin and I want to find out about the impact that
Open Educational Resources are having on learning and teaching at Deakin University.
OER are free textbooks and other learning materials that anyone can use, adapt, and share,
unlike traditional textbooks, which can be expensive and limited by copyright and licensing
restrictions.
In this series, I'm talking with Deakin academics as they share their stories of creating and
using Open Resources.
This podcast is part of a research project that uses podcasting as a research method, so
this conversation is both a podcast and open research data.
And I'm coming to you today from the beautiful traditional and unceded lands of the Wurundjeri
people.
I gratefully acknowledge them as the traditional custodians of these land, seas, and skies and
recognise that this has been a place of learning, teaching, and rich conversation for millennia.
Here with me today is the wonderful Dr. Sarah Steen, Senior Lecturer and Course Director
at Deakin Business School, and author of Workplace Roleplay Scenarios.
Sarah is a passionate and innovative educator with over 15 years experience across areas
of human resource management, organisational behaviour, and management.
Sarah's passion and innovation really come through so strongly in her open textbook.
Workplace Roleplay Scenarios was published in 2023, and it's all about helping students
navigate difficult conversations, negotiation, and mediation in the workplace.
Welcome Sarah.
SARAH: Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
Have you been looking forward to this conversation?
LAUREN: Yes.
Me too.
I am so excited to hear about this OER, so let's get right into it.
Can you tell me the story of how you came to create an OER?
SARAH: I think to start with, I will say that I never intended to make one, right?
I didn't even know what an OER was.
I had no idea, I never heard the term before, I wasn't inspired by another OER.
I was in 2020, which still has all the negative nightmares around it, of course, and I was
given this new-ish unit called Workplace Conflict Resolution, and so as a unit chair, I was
looking at the resources, and there wasn't really much there in terms of interactive workplace
related scenarios that students could actually engage with.
So there was a bit of a problem, there was a bit of a gap that I need to fill with respect
to having more real-life scenarios for students.
So I thought, okay, this is an opportunity for me to develop some new ones and to bring
in some industry perspectives and to really ensure that the role plays they were doing in the
class, because it was a skills-based unit, so they did need to have some semi-real life scenarios
to work with, was actually going to be relevant for them.
And so I knew that there was a niche that I could fill there, and so I started to think
about some ideas in terms of what the role plays might look like.
And then around 2021, I believe it was, was when the first grants came out for OERs,
and so we just got an email, and I was like, I wonder what this list could be about.
And so I did a bit of research on what OERs were, and just the principles and values behind
it really resonated with me, and I thought, wow, this is something I can create.
And when I initially started out, of course, it was designed for our wonderful Deakin students,
but I knew that the benefits in terms of what it could potentially mean for other students
outside Deakin could mean.
That was a very exciting prospect to feel like that we could impact the learning experience
of other students as well.
LAUREN: Can you tell me a little more about the unit that you were teaching?
SARAH: Yeah, sure.
So the unit, as I said, it's a skills-based unit, so it covers areas around difficult conversations,
negotiation, and mediation.
And so students are engaged in it, it's a two-hour weekly seminar.
So I take them through the theories, concepts, and ideas on a weekly basis, and then there is
opportunity in the seminars to actually engage in practising some of those skills.
So it's structured in a way that they spend seven weeks doing role plays.
Part of that, of course, is ensuring that the environment that we set up in the first
couple of weeks is creating that supportive environment for them to actually want to engage
in role plays.
Part of that, of course, and a huge big part of what the OER is about as well as how we actually
design that, how do we support that learning?
You know, what kind of resources do we provide them with?
And so that looks like sometimes providing them with a bit of a script.
But also, it was really, really important for me to ensure that there were reflective questions
at the end of the role play, so it's not like they're just engaging in it and walk out the door.
We do a lot of work to make sure that once they've had that engagement in the role play,
that there's time to debrief in a group, you know, how do I think they went, where could
they improve, but then also coming back into a seminar type environment to actually debrief
as a group as well.
And that's where we see a lot of the key learnings happening, you know, when they're actually able
to say, look, I found it really tricky to navigate this part of the conversation.
And you know, if we're in a classroom environment or online, I like to use the whiteboards, get
them to think about, you know, what areas they can improve on.
And so really the role plays as part of that OER is that really starting point to really
help with those conversations in the classroom.
LAUREN: Is it an undergraduate course?
SARAH: Yes, sorry, it is undergraduate, yeah, it's across a couple of courses.
It's in the Bachelor of Human Resource Psychology course and also in the Bachelor of
Business.
LAUREN: Okay.
SARAH: So interestingly, we do get quite a few students engage in the unit who come from all different
parts of the university.
So it's not just always, you know, your business and commerce students.
LAUREN: Yeah.
Published in 2023.
SARAH: Yes.
LAUREN: So how many units are using the resource now?
SARAH: So there's just my unit that's using it, so it's just embedded in the one unit, but it's
the elective.
But it is, it is, so it's compulsory for some students and then others, they pick it up
as an elective.
LAUREN: So, do you know how many students are coming through every year?
SARAH: It does change a bit, of course, but usually our T2 intakes quite high, so we get about 300
students usually.
LAUREN: Wow.
SARAH: Yeah, so it's quite high numbers.
LAUREN: Is it just offered the once in T2?
SARAH: So we've got T1 and T2 and T2 is just online and then T1, it's at Burwood, Geelong, and online,
so we have multiple offerings there.
LAUREN: Okay.
Tell me about the OER itself.
SARAH: The OER itself is divided into three different sections, so there's 15 role plays.
Some of them are smaller than others, you know, that's designed to start them off with a
smaller scenario than build two obviously bigger scenarios.
There is a little bit of info to start in the OER to kind of give some insight as to how
to kind of create that learning environment.
So things like doing an ice breaker is really important.
We spend at least two weeks getting students comfortable with each other before we start
the role plays in week three and there is some guides in terms of the instructor in terms
of how to run the role plays.
There are some scenarios that have different role play information.
So for example, negotiation, you'd have two role players and there will of course be conflicting
information, so it kind of gives that role play environment.
And if there is an observer, there's some guides as to what the observer could be looking
for, but then also some questions in terms of the reflection questions at the end.
But it's all non-content specific, so anyone can use it and I'm sure we can get to that
later.
It has been picked up by other universities because of that and that was a deliberate choice
that I may when I embraced the nature of the OER.
I wanted it to be shared, I wanted it to be used around and as I said it's always going
to be for the Deakin students, that's where it started, but simple decisions made at the beginning
to really embrace the principles and values of OER has meant that it's been able to achieve
that.
LAUREN: It's so elegant in its simplicity.
I love what was the term that you just used before?
It's not content specific?
SARAH: Yeah, not content specific, so it's not tied to any curriculum, and I think that was a very
strategic decision I made to really embrace what OER is about, and yeah, so anyone can pick
it up.
There's no, so for example, of course, they're really is only one way you can explain negotiation
theories right, but I didn't want it to be limited to course learning outcomes, unit
learning outcomes, and so for me personally, things change between years as well, but anyone
can pick it up, they can teach the process that they want students to approach in terms
of negotiations, and they can use that scenario to actually get students to apply what they've
learned in the lecture or their readings, so that was a very deliberate decision I made
at the beginning.
LAURENl I love how it's really just, it's, for the most part, the bulk of the book is the scenarios
themselves and the reflective questions, like that's what I mean when I say it's so
elegant in its simplicity, it's also beautiful to look at with pictures, and I know you put
in a lot of effort into making certain accessibility decisions.
SARAH: Yes.
LAUREN: What were those?
SARAH: I had had some experience with some students that were using things like readers and different
programs as well, so even when I first took on this unit, we were, they were just the
resources were picked from all different textbooks, they weren't in formats that students could
actually access, and if they did have programs or things that they did need to use, they couldn't
feed in a PDF into what they were using at the time, I mean this was back in
twenty-twenty-one.
So the fact that it could be downloaded in PDF and it can run in those programs meant that
it was also accessible to a variety of people, being in that one resource as well that enables
you to zoom in and all those different features that come with it as well, was really, really
important with the design aspects.
LAUREN: Tell me the story of how the OER was created, like what was that like?
SARAH: It was interesting time, as I said, it was around COVID, and I was so ecstatic that I got
the grant, which meant that we had a bit of a community at the time at Deakin around OERs
as well, so it was a lot of resources I could tap into to get support around that.
It did take, I got the grant in 2021, it took until 2023 to launch, I do blame COVID for
a little bit about that, but in terms of the design of it and thinking about what to put
into it, it did take a lot of thinking time.
So initially, I kind of jumped between ideas, so initially we was going to be like a textbook,
that was initially my idea, let's do a textbook about negotiation, then I decided I'm really
just rewriting what's already there, so really wanted to tap into the roleplay situation.
I couldn't find anything online at the time as well, like I was trying to look for, okay,
there must be some resources here.
I did have another colleague assist with a couple of the scenarios as well, and we were kind
of bouncing ideas off each other, and what I was able to do is because of course I was
teaching the unit at the time, and I guess it also goes back to the benefit of having an
academic in a unit for a long period of time, and you can trial things.
So before it even launched, we were trialing the roleplay scenarios in the classroom, just
sort of seeing how they would go and what that would look like, and I have a little background
in industry, drawing on some others’ ideas, and looking at some fair work cases, as well
just to kind of get my head into some different examples we could use, that's what was able
to sort of give me some inspiration to come up with what the students would sort of
need.
As a course director as well, I did kind of think about what would benefit students, there
was a big thing about employability, making sure you know they're developing their skills
in certain areas, and I think also I was very, very aware that the students in the classroom
had limited workplace experience, right?
So putting them in a roleplay, saying, right, you're about to act as a HR manager, this
is a scenario off you go, was a very, going to be a very daunting process.
So having a think about how that would look in a classroom, and of course for our online
cohort as well, because we run it online, was really, really, really important, also making
sure that the scenarios weren't just that hierarchy type of arrangement.
So not just having a HR manager and an employee, but it's like, you know, what are you going
to do if a colleague comes to your office or chats you and is really having a really tough
time, you know, how can we approach that as well?
So providing that kind of variety of scenarios was important, and feedback, so I really
made sure I got a lot of feedback from colleagues on it.
I will be honest that initially some of my colleagues bore a little bit.
I wouldn't say concerned, but they thought I was wasting my time. LAUREN: In doing an OER?
SARAH: Yeah, in doing an OER, and I think that came down to just lack of knowledge and awareness
of what an OER was and its benefits, because many years ago, you know, the conversations
were around, and this was, I would say partly because of what, you know, textbook publishers
were pushing at the time as well, is that, you know, can we actually trust an OER
or what kind of credibility does it actually have?
And so I did find that I had a little bit of, I wouldn't call it pressure, because it wasn't
that my manager was saying ‘you're wasting your time’.
I called it a passion project, because I’m like, this is something that I want to design for
my students, and for some colleagues, they did find it a little bit tricky to understand
why I waste my time on doing something like this.
So I do believe that has shifted now, and I think that might be part of, you know, me
showing off what the OER has achieved in multiple domains, I've gone, "Oh, okay, this is
what Sarah was doing, and this is, you know, the benefit from it," but I think the conversation
has naturally changed a little bit over time, and I think when I explain some of the things
that I did in the background to make sure that, you know, people gave feedback during the
time, it went through, it got picked up by MERLOT, and they did an external peer review
on it.
We didn't ask them to do it.
And so just those little things along the way has helped add to a little bit of its
credibility, but also it really is an OER in terms of application, right?
So it's not like I'm talking about theories and things like that, it's like here's a scenario,
and you can run with it, you can add research insights into what if you wish to do so, or
different aspects regarding theories.
Yeah, initially that would be something that I had a little bit of trouble with, people
just understanding the why, and I said, "Well, it's my passion project, something I'm,
you know, doing on the side for fun," and they’d go, "Oh, okay, and so I few of them now have,
you know, from what it has achieved, have realised, 'Oh, okay, I can see why it's important
and what it's achieving now.'"
LAUREN: So you got a lot of peer review, it sounds like from colleagues, were you also getting feedback
from students?
SARAH: Yeah, so naturally throughout, when I was running through the role plays before they were
published in the OER in 2023, I did informally get feedback from them.
It was probably more of an informal process than like, "Okay, please fill out a form and tell
me what you think," and that was just by the design of how I did it.
Yeah, I was, you know, from observing what was happening, but also asking students, "Oh,
what did you find tricky about that?"
And that did naturally come out anyway when students are like, "Oh, I'm confused, why is
this person doing this?"
Or, you know, "Should I have said this, or I would like more context with that."
So naturally that bit of feedback came through, and then, of course, at Deakin we have the formal
evaluate system, and not that students got to that granular level, but overall, you
know, students were able to give feedback on how they found the role plays, given that
they are an extensive part of what they do. And it's really a training ground for them
because their assignment, they need to do a role play and actually video themselves doing
the role play, and the assignment is actually getting them to watch the role play back.
I say to them, "It's very cringey, I know, but you're going to watch your back and actually
reflect on how you went in that."
So we don't mark the video, we mark their reflection, and what they did well and what
they need to improve on.
Because it all kind of is the training ground before they get their assignment, and there's
that clear alignment between what they're doing, they're more likely to engage in it.
And from attendance as well, like I have seen that students are more, you wouldn't think
because you're doing role plays and like who wants to do that, but we have quite high
attendance in this unit compared to others, and just from a course perspective as well,
the unit is always on top in terms of the student feedback, the formal student evaluation
feedback.
And people are surprised by that, and it's like, well, you know, if you're sitting in
class, you're just doing Q and A, and then I'm, you know, students actually doing something,
you're engaged in something, you know, they actually take a lot of value for that.
And I think when we're having issues around, you know, students attending and what's in
it for them, I am creating an environment where they're able to develop those skills and
it actually is going to be beneficial for them moving forward.
I do see differences in that from a course director’s perspective as well.
LAUREN: And how much of that positive feedback that you're seeing in the evaluate surveys or
even just observing in the classroom or the online classroom, do you put down to the OER?
SARAH: I would say majority, because, you know, it's the feedback I receive.
A lot of it is, you know, loved the role play scenarios, it was really engaging.
I can see how these skills I'm developing is, you know, going to be helpful for me in
the future.
I have got stories of students who are using the skills they're learning right now in
their workplaces as well, and they've reached out to me and shared different bits and pieces.
So, yeah, I would say the substantial part of the OER does contribute to that positive
feedback in the evaluates, which is great to see that all that work in 2020 paid off.
It was fun, as I said, it was my passion project.
LAUREN: We weren’t all making sourdough!
What other impact are you seeing the OER having on learners?
SARAH: In terms of the learners, so as I said, you know, it's very clearly in evaluates, in terms
of the feedback that I'm receiving that they're enjoying that.
Overall, not to sort of spend too much time looking at the data, but there also is a very clear
point of when the OER got introduced in the unit in terms of student success.
So, that's like the hardcore data that we like to look at to kind of demonstrate that.
So, apart from that, apart from a student's feedback, and that's obviously really important,
like that's the stuff we want to want to see.
I think one thing that kind of surprised me a little bit, and I don't like to say because
it sounds like I didn't have much faith in the OER, but just how it's impacted students
outside Deakin, right?
So, I will get emails from students saying, "Thank you so much.
I really enjoyed this seminar on the mediation scenario.
You know, you wouldn't believe it, but I'm now having to conduct a mediation in my workplace
right now, and I'm literally applying all the things that I'm practicing in the classroom
into my role right now."
LAUREN: It's every teacher's dream.
SARAH: I know!
And I get these emails just out of the blue and I'm like, "Oh my gosh”, like, you know,
and I'm just so thankful that they share these situations with me, like to actually, you
know, reach out to me and go, "Oh, this is what I'm doing, and thank you so much."
And there's been quite a few of those cases, so that was a mediation example.
I had one mature-aged student who in a workplace was going through a really tricky time with
having to give warnings to staff and things like that.
And so, we had just finished the portion around looking at difficult conversations,
and how do you navigate that?
And so, she was like, "I didn't think," like, she was even surprised herself that, you
know, she'd be learning alongside having these workplace issues and actually being able
to apply what she was learning at that very moment into those scenarios in her workplace
environment.
There's been a few examples where students have actually reached out and given me some
insight as to the impacts there, and that's just, yeah, it's the best.
We design these things.
We put so much time and effort into creating these really cool environments for
students to learn in, and you'd hope that they would take a little bit away, but then when
you get those stories and things coming through about what they're doing in their workplace,
and you go, "Okay, this is, yeah,” it's really had an impact in that kind of regard, and
I just go tick, tick, tick, tick, and I save the email and put it in my positive student
feedback folder, and if I'm having a bad day, I'll read that email and go, "Oh, that's
right.
We're making a difference here."
So, yeah, those are really, really special moments when you get those emails coming
through.
LAUREN: You've set a really high bar when students are actually going out of their way to send
you an email after they've graduated to tell you, you're still in my mind.
You are still making a difference to me, even though it's been however many years, that's
incredible.
SARAH: Thank you.
Yeah, it's really nice.
It's really nice.
LAUREN: Were there any challenges that students experienced with the OER or anything negative at
all?
SARAH: I wouldn't put it down to the OER itself, but obviously the OER is filled with role plays
and things like that.
So, naturally, for students, it's can be very confronting when they're engaging in their
role play.
So, I wouldn't put it down to, "Oh, this is the OER's fault."
By default, what did actually entails
Students do get a little bit anxious and things like that, and we spend like two weeks making
sure students feel comfortable and safe in the environment, and I think one thing that
I wouldn’t say had to do, but I've had the joy in being able to do is obviously as I grow
and I've taken on quite a few roles of last couple of years, is that I can't be in every
classroom.
I can't be creating these environments as much as I love it, and I try to make sure I'm
at least one seminar.
I need to start passing on to another person or another teaching team, so I've been fortunate
that I've had two or three staff members who have come into my unit and I have trained
them up in how to actually facilitate it as well.
So, that's been good for their growth as well, but also looking, you know, long-term and making
sure I'm sharing my learnings with students.
So, while that in itself has been, I wouldn't call it a challenge, right, an opportunity
to train up others, and again, it's not about the criticism of the OER, but just by the
very nature of having role plays, students can be quite anxious and worried about it in
terms of what that means for their learning in the classroom, and because of, of course,
it's an assessment, right?
So, the first lecture I'm saying, I know you all want to leave the door right now, but
this is what we do in this unit.
We have these, you know, three to seven weeks of role plays, and I talk about the OER, and
I say, look, I've designed this for you, and I really introduce it to them and talk about
what it's about.
They're always smiling, oh, you know, our unit chair’s actually designed something for us,
and so talk about, you know, how we're going to integrate that into the classroom and
then what that means.
So yeah, I wouldn't say there's been too many negative things in terms of the OER.
LAUREN: I'm thinking about what you're saying from the perspective of learning design, which I've
done a little bit of in my career, and what I'm actually hearing is that by creating an
OER with the scenarios for the learners in this unit, you are actually creating a more
consistent learning experience for the learners from offering to offering and
cohort to cohort, and recognising that you can't be in every single unit.
But we still have the students who are going through the program are getting a more consistent
experience because the scenarios are so detailed and they're structured in such a way with
the reflective questions that I think it just facilitates a greater level of consistency.
SARAH: Yeah, I would really agree with that, and I have had feedback from the team that I've
helped train, say, those very same things, right?
And they've found that that has naturally provided that structure in order to facilitate it
because it is quite different.
You know, it's not running role plays for so many weeks, and again, making sure that
how I facilitate what I want to do is captured in the OER, but also that they can be passed
on is important.
So yeah, that's been a really important part in terms of looking long term as well because
I hope that I'm making more OERs and doing all different things.
So I can't be in every single classroom as much as I really want to be.
LAUREN: It's like you distilled your strength into this OER, and you've left it there for others
to use, and then they will contribute their strengths in different ways, and the offering
will become stronger and stronger.
SARAH: And hey,
they could even contribute a few role plays in the future.
LAUREN: Yeah.
So you've already talked about the impact that it's sort of having in terms of more consistent
teaching, if I’m hearing that correctly.
What other stories about the impact on teaching practice, yours or others, do you have to share?
SARAH: Something that I didn't anticipate that just came with design in the OER was just thinking
about the accessibility of it, the inclusivity, and all those design elements that we need
to consider when we actually create it.
And so I think by the very nature of what an OER is designed to do, that naturally, I wouldn't
say forced me, but it really encouraged me to think about, okay, well, I'm going to be doing
this OER.
What does this mean for learners?
How can we make sure it's accessible to a whole wide range of people?
In terms of my own practice, that reflection piece did come through quite strongly early
on when I was designing it.
And I think, you know, I've spoken about in terms of helping others in terms of bringing
in them and teaching team, but also sharing with colleagues, I think, as well, has been important.
So not just necessarily my teaching practice, but others saying what I've been able to do
with the OER in the classroom and how I've designed it around, you know, embedding it in
the classroom, what the role plays look like, how they need to be facilitated.
I think that's also impacted others’ teaching practice to think about what they can do as
well.
LAUREN: Back up a bit.
I think I just heard you say that in creating an experiential learning resource, you had your own experiential
learning.
By learning.
SARAH: Yes!
LAUREN: You learned about accessibility.
You learned new teaching skills by doing the skills.
SARAH: Yes.
I very much did.
It's funny because yes, I was designing the role plays at the time and yes, learning at
the time.
LAUREN: You were saying that your colleagues around you also sort of has impacted their teaching
practice because they are perhaps more open to OER or more open to role play scenarios
or reflective practice or some combination of...
SARAH: Yeah.
I would say a combination.
And again, you know, during what I said about earlier, there was an initial from some colleagues,
why are you doing this?
But from what they've seen now in terms of what it's been able to achieve and just what
I've been able to achieve with students in the classroom, and I do share these stories
about what I've heard from students in terms of how they're using it in their workplaces
and things like that.
And so it's gotten them to think about, okay, well, what could they do in their classroom
to make it a bit more engaging or a bit more accessible or even just more broadly, okay?
What an OER is, how they could use it in their own teachings as well.
I have seen and heard some of those points as well.
LAUREN: What's it like to teach with this resource compared to when you didn't have this resource?
SARAH: So previously, as I said, I was drawing from, I don't know, eight or ten textbooks in terms
of pulling resources and there was already some existing role plays, but they weren't
workplace specific.
One was about like negotiating an island or something like, we know, we want to make sure
they're relevant for students, right?
For some weeks, it was, you know, okay, we have four resources, we're also going to look
at this week, okay?
Here's the link to go off to the library and back in the day, students would really
like to purchase textbooks.
And for some of them, we'll be saying Sarah, are you expecting us to purchase, you know,
ten, fifteen textbooks?
And of course, you know, they could to an extent, access from the library, but it made it more
complex, right?
And so I saw a need to have a resource that would capture everything that all the resources
in one place that they could use.
And of course, the OER was the perfect solution with that regard.
So it is nice just having that one resource that students can go to rather than little bits
and pieces from different textbooks.
You know, if I also want to add or change it, it's very easily, I can very easily do that.
And of course, that's one of the benefits of OER, right?
LAUREN: So I'm imagining you sort of doing this hunter and gatherer method of collating course
resources.
So that must be a massive administrative burden.
SARAH: Oh, yeah.
It was back, you know, when I took on the unit and I was trying to put all these resources
together, all different examples, it was, yeah, very time-consuming.
It was all mismatched.
They were all different formats as well.
So that was the other thing, you know, all the formatting was different.
They didn't necessarily have post-role play questions.
And if they did, they didn't really make sense for the context of the scenario.
Like I wanted students to think more broadly.
So I was naturally needing to think about, all right, what would I ask students to reflect
on for this scenario?
So it was really haphazard initially.
LAUREN: What do you do with all that extra time now?
SARAH: Oh, I'm doing another OER! LAUREN: There we go.
I was going ask you about that one, but we're going to work through these questions.
I want to know whether there have been any unintended consequences on your teaching
practice, any challenges in teaching with an OER?
SARAH: It's a good question.
LAUREN: Like you did talk about that pushback that you experienced before, that sounds challenging.
SARAH: Initally, when others didn't necessarily say the benefit in it, and I think, as I said,
I think it does come back to some of the negative conversations around OER's credibility, right?
And this, I know it has changed, there has been, I have seen a lot more positivity around
it now.
And as I said, that's also why I designed it carefully knowing that feedback, the importance
of feedback, right, from students, from colleagues when I was designing it.
So I think that was a bit of a challenge at the time.
But other than that, students have been really on board with it.
I guess it's tricky because it's not like they're seeing it before and after.
So I don't see like, okay, this is how the unit ran before, where you had to go to 10,000
textbooks and it was all haphazard.
And now you have this nice little shiny thing that's yours that we can use in the classroom.
So they haven't actually seen the before and after.
But in terms of challenges, I don't really think I can articulate what a challenge might
be.
I don't find it challenging.
I think maybe just in terms of perhaps the teaching team that now do run a lot of
seminars, just getting them across perhaps sharing the why for it as well has been important
for them to understand why we have this resource.
LAUREN: Yeah.
SARAH: You know, that's been important.
And I think one thing and this I guess comes back to the credibility aspect and I know
I can go and change it and I should just do it tomorrow.
But I probably should in the OER be clear about those processes I went through before it
got developed.
So all that feedback that I received during the actual creation of the OER, perhaps
could go into that.
I think that would make it a bit more transparent as to what that process went by, not just relying
on the fact that an academic has put this together right.
LAUREN: Yeah.
SARAH: Actually detail that.
So that has been that has made a my to do list for some time now.
But I think yeah, and again I wouldn't call it a challenge, but perhaps again the teaching
team just understanding the why because they weren't there at the time when I went through
you know, the reasons behind why put the OER together and it's benefit.
I would probably also say and this is probably this is definitely on me, but they perhaps
don't also see the positive impact the OER has on students.
Like they're in the classroom and they can see it in terms of the role plays and things
like that, but you know, the emails that I get from students that have been in my class,
you know, I could do a better job in terms of sharing that so they also see what the impact
is beyond the classroom.
And if a student that was in their class did email me to let me know, of course, I'd pass
it on, but I think I could probably do a better job in just sharing the impact it is having
beyond taking classroom.
LAUREN: Yeah.
So we're spending a little bit of extra time sort of trying to generate some buy-in from
your teaching team around the OER just because it's an OER and not a traditional textbook.
SARAH: Yeah, that's a very good way to summarize.
LAUREN: What is the other impact with the OER is having?
Do you have any stories about your hearing from beyond Deakin about the OER?
SARAH: So I touched on earlier about students, you know, reaching out and letting me know about
how the OER in terms of the role plays skill development has positively impacted them
in the workplace now.
And of course, that's amazing, it's good to hear up, but there has been a few things that
have come out where I have found out information about just the impact of the OER is having.
So one example was I had a student who actually didn't do this unit that the OER is connected
to.
So she was in one of my other classes and she works in the government.
We'll just say that.
And what had happened was, she was trying to, I think, was designing some training programs.
And so a manager said, "Look, we need to train up some of our managers here.
I want you to put together a training program and it's got to be around difficult conversations.
I found a resource online.
You can use it.
You use some of the information in there and you're to take that and design it."
So the manager passes on the resource and the student was like, "Oh my gosh, this is
my Deakin University academic I've had in one unit.
I didn't know she had written an OER”, so it was my OER that the manager had passed on
to a Deakin student.
It was a Deakin student at the time in one of my other classes.
So she knew me from another unit.
And she took the time to write my name out.
I was like, "I just have to let you know Sarah, your OER is having impact outside Deakin
classroom."
And I tell the other students as well a couple of things I do in my other units.
So they're well aware that this OER exists, but she didn't, it came from her manager.
And she's like, "Yeah, I just want to let you know that it's having an impact and I'm
using it to some of the scenarios to put it in a training program so we can train
our managers about different conversations and all this kind of thing and just want to
absolutely let you know."
And I was like, "Oh my gosh."
So yeah, so that's just one little example that it's getting used in a government at the
moment.
So that was really, really cool to hear.
Because initially, when I was designing OER, it was for students, it was for our Deakin
students.
And I guess it comes back to that decision, right, about making it non-content-specific.
And then it meant that anyone could use it.
I didn't anticipate that the government would be using it and industry professionals,
but by the very nature of the OER, of course they can and it was applicable to what they
were doing.
So that was just one little story where I thought, "Oh my gosh, that was a really, really cool
example."
And even just to reach out to let me know, it was just like, "Oh, thank you."
So that was really, really cool.
And then it's had a lot of visitors.
There's been over 6,000 visitors to the OER.
And I think one of the really good things, of course, were the data that we get.
We can kind of see what universities are accessing it and things like that.
And so then I'll have a look if I have access to those websites and things, but there has
been quite a few Australian universities and international universities that are accessing
it.
And then we can see that some of them have listed as course material in those universities,
which is just so, so cool.
And then I have one other example of, I had a German academic reach out because she was
looking for, she wanted an international negotiation scenario.
And so, of course, the first thing that comes up when she types in workplace role play,
workplace scenarios, was the OER.
And she reached out to say, “just letting you know, I'm using it in our university” and gave
me feedback about the structure of the role plays and how she's found it really beneficial.
And just thought, she's like, "I just want you to know that we're using it in the classroom
and, you know, it's like Australian negotiation scenario in the international, international
negotiation, you know?"
So I was like, "Oh, thank you so much
for letting me know."
LAUREN: So cool.
SARAH: So this also comes back to, and I know I've mentioned, this is on the other to-do list, but having
almost like a feedback form or encouraging people at the end of the OER to reach out and
say how they're using it.
I think that would be very beneficial because this is just based on people just reaching
out and telling me, I'm sure there's other others that are using it or I would hope so.
And so that's been a couple of examples.
And then I was able, I think I applied, yeah, expressed interest in writing a chapter
for an Australian OER, that they were writing.
So that is called Open education Down Under: Australian Case Studies.
And so I put a pitch in to write a chapter about how I actually created the OER, so giving
some lessons along the way.
And that chapter actually referred to colleagues as well.
So I have a colleague who goes, "Oh, I'm thinking about writing an OER or using OERs."
And okay, okay, you know, look at this OER that I've contributed to and have a look at
all the different stories from other creators, all those that have adapted OERs, because
I say you don't have to create one from scratch.
I found a little niche that needed filling, but for others, it might just be, you know,
using an OER in the classroom.
So that's been a really good resource that I've promoted. Apart from contributing a chapter
to the Australian OER,
I have had some opportunities to internationally share the OER, yeah.
So there was a webinar where my OER and a medical OER were featured.
It was a Pressbooks collaboration with Global Education.
And so I was able to also share that through that.
So yeah, lots of opportunities to share the OER, which I've been very, very grateful for.
Not only that, just hearing about others’ OERs as well has been interesting to hear how
they're using it.
LAUREN: Two things came to mind while you were telling those stories.
The first one is like, I'm thinking about any kind of teaching context that needs scenarios.
Like for example, I used to teach English as a second language or English as an additional
language.
And I was always looking for scenarios.
And sometimes you just don't want to come up with them off the dome.
SARAH: Yeah.
LAUREN: And so it's like, and I'm just thinking like the whole point of OER is adoption, adaptation,
and creation, and because of the nature of the copyright license on your resource, means
people can just take one or two scenarios and stick them where they need them without any
legal or ethical implications.
It's such a gift to the world.
I'm also hearing when you're talking, and I'm looking at you, we're here in this room,
and you're smiling so much, and you're telling me how satisfying all of this has felt.
And just to go back to that impact that it's had on you as a teacher, it sounds like
it's brought you a lot of gratification.
SARAH: Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think I'm not going to lie.
I mean, there was a lot of time and effort that went into the OER.
I mean, it took two years to launch it, but that was also because I had the feedback process
in it as well.
So I'm not going to say I was slow at writing them.
But yeah, I'm just, I'm thankful that it's paid off, and really for me, what I was looking
for in terms of if it had been successful, is if students had really accepted it and
to see them, you know, how it's impacted the students.
So that would have been the number one.
If I can come up with a resource that it will be beneficial for students, that they can
use it, and they can, you know, develop all these wonderful skills in the classroom to
help them with the learning in the unit.
But then also if they can use it in their lives, that would be tick, tick, tick.
And so everything else is just a welcomed bonus.
I was fortunate that I could draw on the OER and its impact, particularly in the classroom,
but also externally, as part of my promotion as well.
So that was the one way to demonstrate the impact.
And then last year I was very fortunate that I got the VC Award for outstanding contribution
to education and employability for the OER.
LAUREN: Congratulations.
SARAH: Thank you so much.
LAUREN: It sounds like it's had an impact on your teaching, both intrinsically.
You know, it's just looking at you and hearing from you, it sounds like it was a very satisfying
experience.
The impact has been really positive on you in that intrinsic way, but also extrinsically.
It's been really beneficial for your career.
Like you want an award, you're getting all this recognition.
That's pretty amazing.
SARAH: Yeah.
Thank you.
Thanks.
LAUREN: You're welcome.
Let's sort of wrap up with a little bit of a slightly meta discussion.
You've told me all these stories about your OER.
And I'm obviously doing a research project, I'm trying to understand and explore the impact
that OER can have.
So what do you think your stories can tell us, like what are your interpretations of all of
this, if any at all?
SARAH: For me personally, and I get coming back to, you know, it's not just the results, it's
all the additional results, all the additional benefits that come with that, right?
So, you know, it encouraged me to look outside the box a little bit, to look at the students,
to make sure that their needs are being met in the particular resource, to think about
how I could replicate it and other educators could replicate it in their environments.
It was more than just about having that free resource, right?
It was about what it could actually really contribute in terms of their impact and their
learning, more so than just, let's just have the resouce for students.
LAUREN: So what I hear is it wasn't openness for the sake of openness.
SARAH: Yeah.
LAUREN: Openness was a mechanism that helped you solve practical problems.
SARAH: Yes, that's a very good way to summarise it.
LAUREN: Is there anything else that you would want to say about your OER?
SARAH: I don't think so, but I would actually like just to say that, you know, through being
involved in creating the OER, and initially, as I said, it was part of the first wave of
grants at Deakin, and the support we got from the team, but then also all these additional
other things that have come up along the way.
It's been really nice to be part of like the OER community, because I feel like everyone's
really so positive about what they're doing, and even just, you know, when I was, there
was an international global tour that I was invited to speak about my OER, just hearing
all the stories from everyone across the world about how they're using the OERs, and,
you know, in some of those countries, like this is the only way they have access to things
and access to education.
So hearing all of that, and just how enthusiastic and passionate people are about education is
what we're obviously here for, has been, I wouldn't say surprising, but it's been a really
nice aspect to being part of the OER community, and what we're doing, so that's been something
that I've enjoyed.
LAUREN: Do you have a favourite part?
A favourite scenario?
A favourite picture?
...
SARAH: That's very, very hard.
I don't think I do.
I think I’ll just say the whole thing.
There is actually one scenario that students are required, there's a value-based system in
the negotiation, and so what it does for students, it means that they can get a bit of a score,
and so at the end of the negotiation, they can kind of compare and contrast who got the
highest score, and who actually technically won, and that adds a bit of competitive element,
and we don't do negotiation towards the end of the trimester, because we need students
to be fully comfortable with working with each other, but that's always a really, really
fun one for students to get involved in, and everyone's always having a great time with
that one.
The point-space system negotiation scenario.
LAUREN: Gamifying of learning.
SARAH: Yes.
LAUREN: So effective.
SARAH: Yes, it is.
LAUREN: What is next for the OER?
SARAH: The next step is developing an AI agent, which is going to tap into the OER.
The way it's going to work is it's actually going to work with students, and students are
going to be engaging with the AI agent, and it’s ultimately going to give them some feedback
based on how I set up the AI, so I'm going to feed it information around looking things
around the skills that they use, the processes they use, and the AI agent's going to give some
feedback in terms of how to improve, which is fantastic, because I physically cannot
be in every single role-play scenario giving feedback, and although we do train students
to be observers and to give feedback in those role-play scenarios, this is another interesting
element that we're going to add in terms of the AI perspectives.
LAUREN: So if I understand correctly, this is a Deakin-only AI tool called Cogniti.
It's embedded in their learning management system, so their online learning experience,
and the only reason that you can train the AI using your resource is because it's an open
education resource.
SARAH: That's right, Lauren.
That's right.
LAUREN: So if you were using, say, a commercial textbook in your course, you would not be legally
or ethically able to train your agent, your AI agent, using the course resources.
SARAH: Absolutely.
LAUREN: It sounds like it's also a different modality for students to access and engage with the
course resource.
You're essentially creating an AI version of your textbook, right?
SARAH: Yeah.
LAUREN: So it's bringing that to life---
SARAH: And a little bit of me too.
LAUREN: And a little bit of you.
SARAH: Perfect.
Yes.
LAUREN: That is so super cool.
SARAH: Thank you.
LAUREN: Sarah, I'm going to wrap it up now.
I want to say thank you so much for sitting down with me today.
I loved hearing your stories, for people who are tuning into the podcast,
LAUREN: Sarah and I are both smiling--
SARAH: Yes.
LAUREN: --a lot because it's been just a great chat.
Stories of Openness is a limited series from the Open Education team at Deakin University
Library.
It's part of a research-by-podcast project led by me, Lauren Halcomb-Smith, with Angie Williamson,
Danni Johnson, and Eddie Pavuna.
We choose open, wherever possible, including Audacity for editing, Castopod for hosting,
and music by Scott Holmes' music.
This podcast by Deakin University is licensed under a CC-BY-NC 4.0 license.
For more information and full acknowledgments, please see our show notes.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, Sarah.
SARAH: Thanks, Lauren.
LAUREN: We did it.
SARAH: Yay!
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