1 00:00:00,030 --> 00:00:02,690 Kokayi: Everybody who has an imagination about what the world 2 00:00:02,690 --> 00:00:05,840 could be or what the world looks like, you often find that in art, through 3 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,650 whatever medium, through sculpture or paintings or music or whatever. 4 00:00:09,740 --> 00:00:14,210 And so we just thought about a way to empower artists to 5 00:00:14,259 --> 00:00:16,340 think about the future, right? 6 00:00:19,470 --> 00:00:22,000 Hollis: Welcome to the Future Money podcast presented by the 7 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,310 Interledger Foundation, where we invite people of all backgrounds 8 00:00:25,310 --> 00:00:28,799 and disciplines to imagine what a financially inclusive future might be. 9 00:00:29,070 --> 00:00:32,489 I'm Hollis Wong Ware, Community Ambassador with the Interledger Foundation. 10 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:33,659 And I'm Nabil Karama. 11 00:00:33,659 --> 00:00:35,239 I work with the Interledger Foundation. 12 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:37,750 This season, we're focusing on the creative art. 13 00:00:38,195 --> 00:00:40,905 Lawil: We'll kick off the Future Money series with the initiator of 14 00:00:40,915 --> 00:00:44,345 the arts and culture grant by the Interledger Foundation, Kokai Walker. 15 00:00:44,545 --> 00:00:48,025 In the first episode, he will be sharing his perspectives on access to 16 00:00:48,025 --> 00:00:51,805 payment, envisioning the future, and the intersection of art and technology. 17 00:00:53,585 --> 00:00:56,835 On our website, you can listen to all of the published episodes and find 18 00:00:56,845 --> 00:01:01,645 more information on our guests, grant programs, and Interledger resources. 19 00:01:02,495 --> 00:01:02,865 And make 20 00:01:02,865 --> 00:01:07,654 Hollis: sure to subscribe and like our podcast on Spotify, Apple Music, 21 00:01:07,675 --> 00:01:09,365 or wherever you listen to ear pods. 22 00:01:09,515 --> 00:01:09,875 Welcome, 23 00:01:11,155 --> 00:01:11,634 Lawil: Kokai. 24 00:01:11,964 --> 00:01:12,865 Kokayi: Hey, what's up? 25 00:01:12,984 --> 00:01:13,475 How y'all doing? 26 00:01:13,994 --> 00:01:14,335 Hi, 27 00:01:14,375 --> 00:01:15,154 Hollis: welcome, Kokai. 28 00:01:15,184 --> 00:01:16,365 Where are you coming in from today? 29 00:01:16,845 --> 00:01:18,545 Kokayi: I am live from D. 30 00:01:18,545 --> 00:01:19,284 C., Washington, D. 31 00:01:19,285 --> 00:01:19,455 C. 32 00:01:19,455 --> 00:01:21,134 at the Eden Hotel, of course. 33 00:01:21,594 --> 00:01:22,185 So, cool. 34 00:01:22,955 --> 00:01:25,185 Thank you all for having me on your podcast. 35 00:01:25,195 --> 00:01:25,935 I appreciate it. 36 00:01:26,410 --> 00:01:30,160 The time, actually, just to talk about art and everything else. 37 00:01:30,170 --> 00:01:30,180 I 38 00:01:30,190 --> 00:01:33,470 Hollis: would love for you to just introduce yourself and your work to get 39 00:01:33,470 --> 00:01:37,229 us started, and so the listeners know more about you and what brings you here today. 40 00:01:37,450 --> 00:01:37,890 Kokayi: For sure. 41 00:01:37,970 --> 00:01:39,620 Uh, my name is Kokai Walker. 42 00:01:39,660 --> 00:01:40,620 I'm a Washington, D. 43 00:01:40,620 --> 00:01:41,000 C. 44 00:01:41,320 --> 00:01:42,319 based artist. 45 00:01:42,439 --> 00:01:43,860 I've been nominated for a Grammy. 46 00:01:44,159 --> 00:01:51,430 I'm the 2023 Guggenheim Foundation fellow in the category of music production. 47 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:52,980 I mean, music composition. 48 00:01:53,429 --> 00:01:57,570 Um, yeah, and I started, you know, just for context, I started working with 49 00:01:57,589 --> 00:02:02,220 Interledger Foundation like many moons ago, uh, not in a decade ago, but like, 50 00:02:02,220 --> 00:02:06,329 you know, pre pandemic, into pandemic and post pandemic, I started off as an 51 00:02:06,329 --> 00:02:10,959 ambassador in a similar role to you, Hollis, um, as a community ambassador, 52 00:02:10,990 --> 00:02:15,890 just finding interesting projects around the idea of web monetization, which 53 00:02:15,890 --> 00:02:17,579 is where Interledger Foundation was. 54 00:02:17,935 --> 00:02:22,035 At the onset, uh, and through that relationship found a lot of 55 00:02:22,065 --> 00:02:26,055 interesting projects and people who brought a lot of interesting projects 56 00:02:26,505 --> 00:02:28,214 to the Intelligent Foundation. 57 00:02:28,244 --> 00:02:30,635 And as our relationship deepened. 58 00:02:31,005 --> 00:02:36,045 We started talking about, you know, uh, as things pivoted to thinking about 59 00:02:36,045 --> 00:02:42,235 the idea of the Intelligent Protocol and equity and finance and, you know, 60 00:02:42,245 --> 00:02:47,984 how does that look on a global scale, got involved in trying to find ways to 61 00:02:47,984 --> 00:02:52,385 engage different audiences, especially those that are underfunded and 62 00:02:52,555 --> 00:02:54,715 underrepresented in the financial space. 63 00:02:54,985 --> 00:02:56,745 For me, myself and Chris. 64 00:02:57,195 --> 00:03:00,415 Who is a program director at Innoledge Foundation. 65 00:03:00,765 --> 00:03:03,374 We started talking about the intersection of art, right? 66 00:03:03,374 --> 00:03:06,015 And innovation and technology. 67 00:03:06,035 --> 00:03:08,745 Our technology innovation was where we started. 68 00:03:08,805 --> 00:03:12,804 We were just like, yo, you know, what is interesting is when you dig 69 00:03:12,804 --> 00:03:17,614 into artists that embrace technology, sometimes those things, or, you know, 70 00:03:17,834 --> 00:03:21,734 whether they do or don't, everybody who has an imagination about what the world 71 00:03:21,734 --> 00:03:23,334 could be or what the world looks like. 72 00:03:23,785 --> 00:03:27,325 You often find that in art through whatever medium, through sculpture 73 00:03:27,325 --> 00:03:29,055 or paintings or music or whatever. 74 00:03:29,515 --> 00:03:35,765 And so we just thought about a way to empower artists to think about the fusion. 75 00:03:36,054 --> 00:03:39,945 Lawil: So how does technology and arts intersect in your everyday life? 76 00:03:40,084 --> 00:03:45,465 Kokayi: Um, you know, as a musician, I've been using technology for years, right? 77 00:03:45,495 --> 00:03:48,595 Just to create music, to produce music, to 78 00:03:51,065 --> 00:03:55,555 I've always relied on technology and not necessarily as a crutch, but as 79 00:03:55,635 --> 00:04:01,454 an assistant in getting vision or, you know, providing context and vision 80 00:04:01,454 --> 00:04:02,825 to whatever idea I'm working on. 81 00:04:03,495 --> 00:04:08,995 Um, and when I moved into the, uh, into the space of, Uh, art, fine art, right. 82 00:04:09,095 --> 00:04:11,495 I mean, you know, there's so many things wrapped up in that word. 83 00:04:12,995 --> 00:04:16,415 Um, but moving into the space of not things that weren't music, right. 84 00:04:16,425 --> 00:04:22,045 Sculpture, photography, or digital collage or whatever I was thinking about. 85 00:04:22,445 --> 00:04:26,725 Oftentimes technology helped me to realize the end of that. 86 00:04:26,855 --> 00:04:30,545 Um, and then when I started thinking about finance, when we talk about art and 87 00:04:30,545 --> 00:04:32,185 finance, it's like, how do I get paid? 88 00:04:32,365 --> 00:04:32,655 Right. 89 00:04:32,665 --> 00:04:35,014 So a lot of times when I think about how do I, how do I get 90 00:04:35,014 --> 00:04:36,395 paid from the art that I produce? 91 00:04:36,865 --> 00:04:41,925 Technology oftentimes, you know, gone at long gone or shortly will be gone. 92 00:04:42,094 --> 00:04:47,564 Other high day ideas or situations in which I'm either getting paid in 93 00:04:47,564 --> 00:04:49,154 cash, which doesn't happen a lot. 94 00:04:49,475 --> 00:04:53,674 I get paid with a check, which is who sees that from time to time, but more 95 00:04:53,674 --> 00:04:58,004 often than not, it's either a financial transaction through a banking system, ACH, 96 00:04:58,335 --> 00:05:02,434 or somebody sending me something through cash app or Venmo or whatever is sort of 97 00:05:02,445 --> 00:05:04,944 mobile transfers of money that happens. 98 00:05:05,354 --> 00:05:10,784 Um, and so on my everyday life, I'm always using one of those pieces of technology 99 00:05:11,294 --> 00:05:14,015 to finance the art that I'm making, right? 100 00:05:14,015 --> 00:05:17,145 Because supplies aren't free and space isn't free when it 101 00:05:17,145 --> 00:05:18,354 should be sometimes, right? 102 00:05:18,395 --> 00:05:19,705 But those things aren't free. 103 00:05:19,715 --> 00:05:20,114 And so. 104 00:05:20,500 --> 00:05:24,010 In order to be able to work in the business of art, because art is a 105 00:05:24,010 --> 00:05:25,890 business, unfortunately and fortunately. 106 00:05:26,260 --> 00:05:29,879 At the same time, um, you kind of need these things, these financial 107 00:05:29,879 --> 00:05:33,029 structures in place to be able to work. 108 00:05:33,100 --> 00:05:35,540 Lawil: You absolutely need to have these structures in place. 109 00:05:35,579 --> 00:05:40,335 It doesn't make sense that One of the conditions to make sure that you could 110 00:05:40,335 --> 00:05:44,585 put food on your table, then would be a financial infrastructure that, 111 00:05:44,674 --> 00:05:46,974 which you can't build on your own. 112 00:05:47,694 --> 00:05:51,774 Like, do you see themes of financial inclusion in your own communities? 113 00:05:52,034 --> 00:05:52,304 Kokayi: Yeah. 114 00:05:52,304 --> 00:05:55,434 I mean, it, it's, you know, exclusion or inclusion? 115 00:05:55,474 --> 00:05:57,824 Lawil: Well, I said inclusion, but of course I mean exclusion. 116 00:05:58,245 --> 00:05:59,945 Kokayi: Cause it happens in both ways, right? 117 00:05:59,965 --> 00:06:00,295 Lawil: Yeah. 118 00:06:00,690 --> 00:06:04,250 Kokayi: If I'm, if I'm working with artists from different countries, 119 00:06:04,550 --> 00:06:06,370 then how am I going to pay them right? 120 00:06:06,380 --> 00:06:09,859 And if they're unbanked, if you're a person that's unbanked and, and 121 00:06:09,859 --> 00:06:13,770 I want you to fly a verse in from, let's say, you know, Senegal, if I'm, 122 00:06:13,810 --> 00:06:16,550 if I'm not, and I'm not working with somebody who's in Dakar, I'm working 123 00:06:16,550 --> 00:06:19,760 with somebody who's at the Peace Corps at Bikini or somewhere far out. 124 00:06:20,245 --> 00:06:23,865 And they don't have a bank, how am I going to get them their CFA? 125 00:06:23,885 --> 00:06:27,895 Like, am I going to, I have to pay somebody somewhere to get them the money. 126 00:06:28,115 --> 00:06:30,505 And if it can't be cash, I can't just like fly to Fiskin. 127 00:06:31,610 --> 00:06:35,609 Pop in with a bag full of cash and be like, here's your verse money and do that. 128 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:37,390 So, I mean, you know what I mean? 129 00:06:37,390 --> 00:06:40,509 So you got to either send them some sort of check or figure out some 130 00:06:40,509 --> 00:06:44,359 sort of banking situation and if the banking situation isn't working for 131 00:06:44,359 --> 00:06:47,899 them, then, then they're stuck and they're doing it for free, which is 132 00:06:47,909 --> 00:06:49,609 not what should happen with artists. 133 00:06:49,699 --> 00:06:51,749 Lawil: Well, it is a global challenge. 134 00:06:51,789 --> 00:06:55,719 The dependency that we have on this infrastructure, kind of like a 135 00:06:55,719 --> 00:06:57,950 financial infrastructure of suffering. 136 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:05,930 And I also feel that quite often in history of Western humanity then that 137 00:07:05,930 --> 00:07:07,610 the artist had that function as well. 138 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:13,550 I mean, if you didn't showcase the, uh, zeitgeist and or 139 00:07:13,550 --> 00:07:14,990 the suffering of that time. 140 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:15,760 Yeah. 141 00:07:16,350 --> 00:07:17,760 Were you truly an artist? 142 00:07:17,909 --> 00:07:21,590 Kokayi: I think, I think a lot of people suffered, not just artists, but you know, 143 00:07:21,590 --> 00:07:26,900 people who are undocumented, people who don't have access to banking systems. 144 00:07:26,900 --> 00:07:29,750 People, um, exist. 145 00:07:30,060 --> 00:07:32,590 You know, there's, there's certain levels that, you know, in the United 146 00:07:32,590 --> 00:07:36,680 States, we talk about these classes, these classes of poverty or middle class 147 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,769 or upper class or super wealthy, right? 148 00:07:39,110 --> 00:07:42,150 But those classes and situations exist all throughout the globe. 149 00:07:42,199 --> 00:07:46,129 They are undocumented, unbanked individuals in a 150 00:07:46,130 --> 00:07:47,540 lot of different societies. 151 00:07:47,589 --> 00:07:50,870 Lawil: We haven't found a solution to a classless society, 152 00:07:50,900 --> 00:07:51,210 Kokayi: right? 153 00:07:51,260 --> 00:07:55,050 You know, people who do all sorts of, you know, care and provide care. 154 00:07:55,440 --> 00:08:01,489 And provide, you know, um, provide things for, for everybody in other countries. 155 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,450 So whether that's, I mean, you know, if we want to keep it a solid buck, that's 156 00:08:04,450 --> 00:08:07,229 anybody from a sex worker to a CEO, right? 157 00:08:07,230 --> 00:08:10,859 There's, there's a lot of different spaces in which people don't have 158 00:08:11,070 --> 00:08:15,760 financial structures in place to be paid for their work, right? 159 00:08:15,810 --> 00:08:17,760 And so then you get into this. 160 00:08:18,115 --> 00:08:19,085 Place that's nebulous. 161 00:08:19,085 --> 00:08:22,205 I mean, especially when you talk about things that are regulated, unregulated. 162 00:08:22,805 --> 00:08:25,685 So my friend currently, I have a friend in Kuwait right now, who's been 163 00:08:25,685 --> 00:08:30,895 talking to me about how they may not ever have a cash app system because 164 00:08:30,895 --> 00:08:34,195 the country, the government wants to be involved in every transaction. 165 00:08:34,575 --> 00:08:38,424 They're like talking to the banks now to be able to see all of your transactions. 166 00:08:38,705 --> 00:08:40,275 Like, that's crazy to me. 167 00:08:40,395 --> 00:08:41,025 Lawil: Wait, what? 168 00:08:41,365 --> 00:08:42,015 The government? 169 00:08:42,255 --> 00:08:42,664 Wow. 170 00:08:42,755 --> 00:08:45,625 Kokayi: It's a, it's a, it's a governmental thing where they 171 00:08:45,625 --> 00:08:49,614 want to be able to monitor all the transactions from all the citizens 172 00:08:49,774 --> 00:08:51,015 going through a traditional bank. 173 00:08:51,525 --> 00:08:55,895 So when you, when you start to talk about, And this is the wild thing about systems. 174 00:08:56,035 --> 00:09:00,035 So when you start talking about being able to track all your transactions, 175 00:09:00,295 --> 00:09:01,975 what does that immediately create? 176 00:09:02,255 --> 00:09:05,635 It creates a market in which I want to hide my transactions. 177 00:09:06,255 --> 00:09:11,745 And when you start hiding transactions, that instantaneously oftentimes is, you 178 00:09:11,745 --> 00:09:15,054 know, associated with something nefarious, like people doing something for bad. 179 00:09:15,510 --> 00:09:17,670 Because they don't want you to track their transactions. 180 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,560 But I don't necessarily want you to know that I'm sending my mom 20 bucks. 181 00:09:21,730 --> 00:09:23,040 That doesn't have anything to do with you. 182 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:24,750 That's not the government's business. 183 00:09:25,170 --> 00:09:28,370 That I sent my mother some money, but, and I don't necessarily 184 00:09:28,370 --> 00:09:29,920 want to document that to my bank. 185 00:09:29,930 --> 00:09:33,190 I don't want to show all these transactions between me and my mom. 186 00:09:33,190 --> 00:09:36,779 You know, what if my mom's in a situation where she can't be seen 187 00:09:36,779 --> 00:09:38,740 to be receiving money from her son? 188 00:09:39,020 --> 00:09:39,649 You see what I mean? 189 00:09:39,649 --> 00:09:44,369 So these things start to, when you start talking about regulated, unregulated 190 00:09:44,380 --> 00:09:50,370 systems, they get into some other areas that, you know, privacy is one thing. 191 00:09:50,694 --> 00:09:54,655 Then the other piece is for those that are unbanked, can't afford to be banked, 192 00:09:54,954 --> 00:09:58,944 don't have the documentation there in the country that they necessarily 193 00:09:58,954 --> 00:10:03,354 either immigrated to, sought asylum in, or quite frankly just, you 194 00:10:03,354 --> 00:10:04,614 know, rolled in the drain, right? 195 00:10:04,704 --> 00:10:06,074 Undocumented workers. 196 00:10:06,334 --> 00:10:09,604 So if you're an undocumented worker without a passport, without the things 197 00:10:09,625 --> 00:10:13,185 that require for you to have a better life in a place you'd like to have a 198 00:10:13,185 --> 00:10:16,775 better life, and you can earn money in that place, how do you get paid? 199 00:10:17,154 --> 00:10:19,494 So then those things create the systems in which. 200 00:10:19,930 --> 00:10:23,350 Instead of you getting paid a fair wage for what you're supposed to be doing, 201 00:10:23,500 --> 00:10:26,350 I could pay you less than a fair wage for what you're supposed to be doing 202 00:10:26,610 --> 00:10:28,030 because I know you're undocumented. 203 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,579 So it just creates a whole bunch of different things. 204 00:10:30,580 --> 00:10:34,290 And I think that is part of the problem and the need why 205 00:10:34,290 --> 00:10:35,670 there's a need for a solution. 206 00:10:36,110 --> 00:10:39,890 Um, so that people can deal with transactions in the way that they want 207 00:10:39,890 --> 00:10:41,920 to deal with their transactions without. 208 00:10:42,290 --> 00:10:46,380 All these other things that may expose them to different, you know, harm, right? 209 00:10:46,470 --> 00:10:47,910 Hollis: Yeah, I definitely hear that. 210 00:10:47,910 --> 00:10:52,170 And I think it's fascinating that example of an artist that you know in Kuwait 211 00:10:52,180 --> 00:10:57,609 because it really demonstrates like how artists at the crux of technology 212 00:10:57,610 --> 00:11:01,629 and essentially democracy, like our ability to not only self express but 213 00:11:01,629 --> 00:11:03,750 to move freely without surveillance. 214 00:11:04,225 --> 00:11:09,574 Um, without fear of our government like interfering or surveilling 215 00:11:09,574 --> 00:11:13,064 us, or I think, you know, there's so many kind of like macro global 216 00:11:13,074 --> 00:11:16,895 issues that are tied up in what is seemingly a very simple transaction. 217 00:11:16,905 --> 00:11:21,095 I think that's really what the Interledger Protocol and this whole conversation 218 00:11:21,105 --> 00:11:24,765 is around is something that should be at so simple as two human beings 219 00:11:24,765 --> 00:11:28,275 on the planet connecting and being able to have their own transaction. 220 00:11:28,275 --> 00:11:30,645 Like what are the complications they're in? 221 00:11:31,025 --> 00:11:34,485 I'm curious for you and your work specifically, like going from the 222 00:11:34,495 --> 00:11:40,605 global to the personal, like how do the themes of financial inclusion or 223 00:11:40,615 --> 00:11:45,085 exclusion, like impact the way that you approach your own practice as an artist? 224 00:11:45,394 --> 00:11:49,744 Kokayi: I mean, it's, I consider people from eight to 80, right? 225 00:11:49,775 --> 00:11:52,725 It's like, if you talk about what my audience is, I consider people from 226 00:11:52,725 --> 00:11:56,405 eight to 80 and people who have zero money to people who have a lot of money. 227 00:11:56,405 --> 00:11:56,724 Right. 228 00:11:56,805 --> 00:11:57,105 Right. 229 00:11:57,134 --> 00:11:59,075 And so in certain circumstances. 230 00:11:59,495 --> 00:12:03,205 Even if I have to do like, if, if I get asked to do a verse on a 231 00:12:03,205 --> 00:12:06,305 project or ask to co write something or ask to produce something. 232 00:12:06,685 --> 00:12:09,335 A lot of times the question is what's your budget, but it's not 233 00:12:09,335 --> 00:12:10,755 what's your budget to exclude. 234 00:12:11,045 --> 00:12:14,295 Sometimes it's like, I know folks that can't afford, right? 235 00:12:14,304 --> 00:12:16,824 So I was, I have, I've worked with other artists where they were like, 236 00:12:16,824 --> 00:12:20,335 dude, I have no budget, but they're the biggest rap group somewhere else. 237 00:12:20,615 --> 00:12:20,905 Right? 238 00:12:20,985 --> 00:12:25,285 And I'm like, but, and all of these producers, because they know that they're 239 00:12:25,285 --> 00:12:26,855 the biggest rap group somewhere else. 240 00:12:27,335 --> 00:12:29,625 Oh, I need 5, 000 a track. 241 00:12:29,625 --> 00:12:30,905 I need 10, 000 a track. 242 00:12:30,905 --> 00:12:34,245 And I'm like, look, I got tracks that are sitting in my hard drive here. 243 00:12:34,465 --> 00:12:37,405 Just go for whatever, whatever we can work out the publishing, as 244 00:12:37,405 --> 00:12:39,115 long as everything is split fairly. 245 00:12:39,145 --> 00:12:42,875 I don't need for you to give me money that you don't have. 246 00:12:43,394 --> 00:12:43,664 Right. 247 00:12:43,675 --> 00:12:47,435 So I, you know, and I operate a lot of times, of course, as a 248 00:12:47,435 --> 00:12:49,135 professional musician, I have my price. 249 00:12:50,115 --> 00:12:50,915 This is my price. 250 00:12:50,915 --> 00:12:53,215 This is what it costs for me to be engaged, blah, blah, blah. 251 00:12:53,535 --> 00:12:54,644 But oftentimes. 252 00:12:55,170 --> 00:12:56,750 I'll say everything I need to say. 253 00:12:56,770 --> 00:12:58,040 I had somebody approached me recently. 254 00:12:58,079 --> 00:12:59,410 They're like, yo, can you produce my album? 255 00:12:59,410 --> 00:13:00,990 I say, Hey, this is my price. 256 00:13:01,050 --> 00:13:02,660 This is how much it's supposed to cost you. 257 00:13:03,049 --> 00:13:03,939 And this is my price. 258 00:13:03,939 --> 00:13:06,060 However, our relationship is this. 259 00:13:06,290 --> 00:13:08,020 Let's talk about how we could barter. 260 00:13:08,299 --> 00:13:11,759 Like, how can we do things that don't have anything to do with finances? 261 00:13:12,119 --> 00:13:12,389 Right. 262 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,530 Especially in, in their circumstance. 263 00:13:14,530 --> 00:13:20,320 So I feel like for those persons who are within systems that they 264 00:13:20,330 --> 00:13:23,480 have banking systems and I can give them money a certain way. 265 00:13:24,010 --> 00:13:28,270 Then yeah, we can do, do that exchange, but then there's oftentimes 266 00:13:28,330 --> 00:13:31,090 I am involved with individuals that's not going to happen. 267 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,800 So I have to figure out, we have to figure out other ways. 268 00:13:34,330 --> 00:13:35,290 For them to get paid. 269 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:37,710 I got to figure out like, how can I get you your money? 270 00:13:37,870 --> 00:13:39,800 Cause I think as an artist, that's the biggest thing that 271 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:40,960 comes to me sometimes too. 272 00:13:40,980 --> 00:13:43,370 Like, I'm not going to ask you to do anything for free 273 00:13:43,370 --> 00:13:44,600 or anything for exposure. 274 00:13:44,830 --> 00:13:46,049 Like that's not how I operate. 275 00:13:46,420 --> 00:13:49,789 So if I'm not asking you to do things for free or exposure, I 276 00:13:49,789 --> 00:13:51,710 need to pay you for your services. 277 00:13:52,060 --> 00:13:54,130 And if you don't have an account somewhere. 278 00:13:54,755 --> 00:13:58,535 And you don't have access to Cash App, and you don't have access to Venmo. 279 00:13:58,625 --> 00:14:01,815 I know people that have Cash App, but don't have the Cash App credit card 280 00:14:02,045 --> 00:14:03,604 because they don't have an address. 281 00:14:04,115 --> 00:14:06,564 So they can't take the card and go swipe. 282 00:14:06,845 --> 00:14:09,745 They can only use the virtual thing if they have an iPhone and 283 00:14:09,745 --> 00:14:10,864 can use it from their wallet. 284 00:14:11,144 --> 00:14:13,415 Or if they use a, you know, if they have an Android, they can 285 00:14:13,425 --> 00:14:15,105 use the Google wallet, right? 286 00:14:15,525 --> 00:14:17,755 But that's the only way they can pay, is through the wallet. 287 00:14:18,134 --> 00:14:21,254 And then that means if they can't pay me from the wallet on their mobile 288 00:14:21,274 --> 00:14:25,904 phone, I have to have a device or some way for them to tap it to be able to 289 00:14:25,904 --> 00:14:27,784 pay, or for me to be able to pay them. 290 00:14:27,795 --> 00:14:31,974 So it, it just begins to be this, because they can't, they don't have an 291 00:14:31,984 --> 00:14:33,834 address so they can't have the card. 292 00:14:34,634 --> 00:14:38,844 So it's those type of barriers to entry, to even just having a regular 293 00:14:38,844 --> 00:14:42,224 conversation about what you would think is a regular conversation 294 00:14:42,224 --> 00:14:43,584 about, oh yeah, I could just pay. 295 00:14:44,234 --> 00:14:46,884 Those are the things we take for granted and we assume. 296 00:14:47,324 --> 00:14:48,295 The assumption is. 297 00:14:48,710 --> 00:14:52,970 Is if you're doing some work, especially when we talk about the art world, if, 298 00:14:53,030 --> 00:14:55,860 if I want to buy a painting from you, the assumption is, is you have an 299 00:14:55,870 --> 00:14:58,070 instrument for which I could pay you. 300 00:14:58,740 --> 00:15:00,450 And that is not always the case. 301 00:15:00,479 --> 00:15:03,450 I could pay the gallery, but how does the gallery pay me? 302 00:15:03,610 --> 00:15:07,379 I could pay the art fair, but how does the art fair pay you if they 303 00:15:07,380 --> 00:15:11,150 know your circumstance or don't know your circumstance, which then puts 304 00:15:11,150 --> 00:15:13,120 people in, into horrible conditions. 305 00:15:13,130 --> 00:15:17,339 So if I have to go to a gallery, let's say you're an artist and you have a piece 306 00:15:17,340 --> 00:15:19,069 that I like and you live in a country. 307 00:15:19,379 --> 00:15:22,139 That doesn't have, you know, which is every other country that 308 00:15:22,139 --> 00:15:23,589 doesn't have cash app, right? 309 00:15:23,649 --> 00:15:24,899 But I want to pay you through cash app. 310 00:15:25,149 --> 00:15:27,329 I can only pay you through cash app if you live in the United States 311 00:15:27,359 --> 00:15:29,009 or you live specifically in London. 312 00:15:29,779 --> 00:15:30,209 That's it. 313 00:15:30,540 --> 00:15:32,920 I can't pay you if you live anywhere else in the UK. 314 00:15:33,189 --> 00:15:36,689 Only London is where cash app works and the United States. 315 00:15:36,949 --> 00:15:40,170 So, but you're in Mexico, but I want to buy the work from you. 316 00:15:40,750 --> 00:15:42,290 And the only way I could pay you is cash app. 317 00:15:42,900 --> 00:15:46,649 I have to go tell you, Hey, get involved with this gallery. 318 00:15:46,909 --> 00:15:48,419 That gallery is going to take 50%. 319 00:15:49,324 --> 00:15:53,115 So instead of paying you the entire amount for your work, I got to go to the gallery, 320 00:15:53,285 --> 00:15:54,895 which can pay you in cash in Mexico. 321 00:15:55,214 --> 00:15:56,844 I have to pay them through cash app. 322 00:15:57,185 --> 00:16:01,355 They then pay you half of what you asked for because they're the intermediary. 323 00:16:01,525 --> 00:16:02,225 That's not right. 324 00:16:02,634 --> 00:16:06,264 And that's how it impacts me on a daily situation because you find yourself in 325 00:16:06,264 --> 00:16:09,935 these situations in which you want to make sure people get what they deserve. 326 00:16:10,264 --> 00:16:12,395 But then there's all of these obstacles. 327 00:16:12,729 --> 00:16:15,550 And, you know, basically artists gotta pay a toll. 328 00:16:15,620 --> 00:16:19,430 I gotta, you gotta pay a toll if you don't have the financial instruments that 329 00:16:19,430 --> 00:16:21,360 everybody's used to, to be able to pay. 330 00:16:21,540 --> 00:16:25,049 Hollis: Exactly, like the onus ultimately arrives squarely on the 331 00:16:25,050 --> 00:16:30,990 head of the person who is, Who is most marginalized in the situation and the 332 00:16:31,270 --> 00:16:33,020 intermediary is the person that benefits. 333 00:16:33,020 --> 00:16:33,170 Honestly, 334 00:16:33,390 --> 00:16:36,150 Lawil: it reminds me of a story about galleries not even paying their artists 335 00:16:37,009 --> 00:16:38,709 and just put that in their own pockets. 336 00:16:38,750 --> 00:16:40,639 But those are different stories, not for now. 337 00:16:41,270 --> 00:16:42,710 So, um, Yeah, 338 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:45,600 Kokayi: but those, those situations create that. 339 00:16:45,619 --> 00:16:46,150 That's true. 340 00:16:46,630 --> 00:16:49,990 If you don't have the opportunity, if you don't have a way for 341 00:16:49,990 --> 00:16:52,130 your financial, to be paid. 342 00:16:52,635 --> 00:16:57,935 Then the gallery as the institution that is now a selling your work, 343 00:16:58,155 --> 00:16:59,315 they've created none of it. 344 00:16:59,355 --> 00:17:00,415 They're just housing the work. 345 00:17:00,884 --> 00:17:03,875 B, they could just do whatever they want because what are you going 346 00:17:03,875 --> 00:17:05,964 to say person who is undocumented? 347 00:17:06,285 --> 00:17:12,734 Person who has no financial space in which to operate what you're gonna say I'll call 348 00:17:12,755 --> 00:17:15,985 immigration on you if you don't let me take advantage of you right now, right? 349 00:17:15,985 --> 00:17:19,435 So then it becomes these other things that create these situations. 350 00:17:19,435 --> 00:17:19,805 Cases 351 00:17:19,815 --> 00:17:22,204 Lawil: is also, of course, for undocumented persons because they 352 00:17:22,204 --> 00:17:24,895 don't have the right to participate. 353 00:17:25,305 --> 00:17:29,055 And it will also always be kind of like a very difficult issue as long as there 354 00:17:29,475 --> 00:17:34,055 are not any additional rights created for them even though their access or their 355 00:17:34,074 --> 00:17:35,534 status might be limited in that sense. 356 00:17:37,250 --> 00:17:40,750 Kokayi: And that's even undocumented persons who are seeking asylum, but 357 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,410 haven't had the asylum approved yet. 358 00:17:42,430 --> 00:17:42,910 Lawil: Yes. 359 00:17:43,370 --> 00:17:45,560 Kokayi: You're still necessarily, you know, I mean, you're 360 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,100 documented, but you're undocumented. 361 00:17:47,390 --> 00:17:47,920 Lawil: That's true. 362 00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:50,739 It's also kind of like the thing about the Intellectual Foundation that we're 363 00:17:50,739 --> 00:17:54,869 kind of like focused on the fact that having access to financial services is, 364 00:17:54,870 --> 00:17:58,400 of course, in that sense, a right, because we should, especially in this day and age, 365 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,340 we should not think about borders anymore. 366 00:18:00,465 --> 00:18:03,475 We all, even though a person like might be undocumented here in 367 00:18:03,475 --> 00:18:05,975 the Netherlands, it doesn't mean that they're truly undocumented. 368 00:18:05,975 --> 00:18:08,855 It just means that they don't have a legal status here. 369 00:18:09,185 --> 00:18:12,934 So they might have access to their payment services back home, but those 370 00:18:12,955 --> 00:18:17,475 payment systems haven't been connected to the payment systems we have here. 371 00:18:17,714 --> 00:18:20,864 Or the government might say, not necessarily government, but a government 372 00:18:20,874 --> 00:18:24,344 might say, we don't want it, want our payment systems connected to these. 373 00:18:25,105 --> 00:18:26,245 Kokayi: Because we can't regulate. 374 00:18:26,245 --> 00:18:26,605 Yes, 375 00:18:26,665 --> 00:18:27,215 Lawil: that's true. 376 00:18:27,385 --> 00:18:29,274 Kokayi: Because we can't track it. 377 00:18:29,375 --> 00:18:30,304 Because we can't. 378 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,510 Lawil: Wondering if you kind of, like, noticed that also with your work with the 379 00:18:35,510 --> 00:18:38,840 Interledger Foundation, how that kind of, like, applies to these types of groups. 380 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:43,240 Or even creatives you know, um, in the United States or all over the world. 381 00:18:43,669 --> 00:18:47,419 Who are trying to access these financial services or are trying to 382 00:18:47,419 --> 00:18:50,929 integrate, for example, the Interledger protocol into their platforms. 383 00:18:51,169 --> 00:18:55,699 Kokayi: I haven't run into anyone yet that's trying to implement IOP, 384 00:18:56,030 --> 00:18:58,340 uh, other than like Tabby, right? 385 00:18:58,340 --> 00:19:03,640 So Tabby Benet, he owns a farm in Tolo and he wanted to, he wants to try to 386 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,500 figure out a way to pay his workers right on that firm because there's no 387 00:19:07,500 --> 00:19:12,120 cash app and it's hard for them, and there's very little trustworthy banking. 388 00:19:12,845 --> 00:19:16,485 That happens in the, you know, rural areas of Togo. 389 00:19:16,855 --> 00:19:21,355 So he's, you know, consistently trying to work with Interledger, work with 390 00:19:21,355 --> 00:19:25,725 the Togolese government, to try to figure out a way to create some sort 391 00:19:25,725 --> 00:19:29,535 of financial system so that he could pay his workers because he lives in the 392 00:19:29,535 --> 00:19:31,595 United States, has dual citizenship. 393 00:19:32,020 --> 00:19:33,940 Because he was born in Togo, he's Togolese. 394 00:19:34,220 --> 00:19:38,300 Um, but how does he pay those workers without getting on a plane, flying 395 00:19:38,310 --> 00:19:42,929 back to Togo, going to the bank in the capital, driving out to his 396 00:19:42,930 --> 00:19:46,520 farm, paying people in their hand, or having a relative go to the bank. 397 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:47,400 That's a lot. 398 00:19:47,540 --> 00:19:48,020 Lawil: It's a lot. 399 00:19:48,439 --> 00:19:52,440 Kokayi: Yeah, so I've interacted with, with folks who are, who are trying 400 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,820 to work it out, um, in that way. 401 00:19:55,340 --> 00:19:58,840 But again, like even, you know, I have a friend who was a DACA 402 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:00,740 kid, who was a kid that is. 403 00:20:01,205 --> 00:20:04,535 In this country who's documented, but undocumented, he's from 404 00:20:04,545 --> 00:20:08,115 Nigeria, but he's made a bunch of money and then has to send money. 405 00:20:08,115 --> 00:20:12,444 He, this was his first trip home in like 17 years. 406 00:20:12,455 --> 00:20:16,924 He just was able, he just got approved to go to Nigeria, but it was like, 407 00:20:16,924 --> 00:20:17,925 how am I going to send you money? 408 00:20:18,485 --> 00:20:22,184 So he was sending money through, you know, some other family members. 409 00:20:22,215 --> 00:20:26,264 But if he just wanted to just be like, Hey, grandma, I'll have some money. 410 00:20:26,650 --> 00:20:27,320 He couldn't do it. 411 00:20:27,330 --> 00:20:31,100 He had to go through a family member and then it has to be a trustworthy family. 412 00:20:31,130 --> 00:20:33,580 I mean, you know, you know, the hustle, it has to be a trustworthy 413 00:20:33,620 --> 00:20:36,590 family member because that family member could take the 10, 000 and 414 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,290 be like, Oh no, he sent me 3000. 415 00:20:38,990 --> 00:20:39,330 Lawil: Yeah. 416 00:20:39,530 --> 00:20:39,840 I know. 417 00:20:41,869 --> 00:20:42,640 That's a thing. 418 00:20:42,730 --> 00:20:43,130 What? 419 00:20:47,965 --> 00:20:52,345 Hollis: And I think what like this conversation has just provided is the real 420 00:20:52,365 --> 00:20:58,965 context for how urgent and critical it is for new possibilities to emerge around 421 00:20:58,975 --> 00:21:07,855 how we relate, how we collaborate, how we compensate, and how these complicated and 422 00:21:07,865 --> 00:21:11,075 as of now, like inescapable situations. 423 00:21:11,260 --> 00:21:16,959 Intermediaries need to be departed from in favor of something new, and I 424 00:21:16,970 --> 00:21:22,069 think that it's so difficult already to be a working artist and creative 425 00:21:22,070 --> 00:21:26,110 and to have both the confidence and the resources to pursue one's creative 426 00:21:26,110 --> 00:21:28,759 expression, despite the barriers. 427 00:21:29,010 --> 00:21:33,450 And this overarching kind of issue of financial exclusion, particularly 428 00:21:33,450 --> 00:21:36,740 when working globally, is just something that continues to be a 429 00:21:36,740 --> 00:21:39,340 huge barrier to what's possible. 430 00:21:43,390 --> 00:21:46,769 Lawil: So we're going to take a quick break right now, but when we come back 431 00:21:46,770 --> 00:21:50,099 we're going to dive into the future money grant and the possibilities therein. 432 00:21:51,279 --> 00:21:53,279 I used to say that lottery actually means hope. 433 00:21:54,470 --> 00:21:54,870 That's it. 434 00:21:54,890 --> 00:21:58,610 You buy a small ticket of hope and then once you see the numbers, you kind of 435 00:21:58,620 --> 00:21:59,920 like throw it out again and that's it. 436 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:02,210 And you move on and next week is a new one. 437 00:22:02,650 --> 00:22:03,900 Kokayi: And is that your, and right. 438 00:22:03,909 --> 00:22:04,839 So then think about that. 439 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:06,360 You're actually discarding hope. 440 00:22:06,699 --> 00:22:07,229 Lawil: Yes. 441 00:22:07,389 --> 00:22:09,590 Every time, at least when you lose, you discard. 442 00:22:09,629 --> 00:22:10,969 Kokayi: When you lose, you discard hope. 443 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:12,789 That's a crazy thought process. 444 00:22:13,455 --> 00:22:16,515 Hollis: Hi, and welcome back to the Future Money Podcast presented by the 445 00:22:16,515 --> 00:22:19,665 Interledger Foundation, where we're inviting people of all backgrounds 446 00:22:19,665 --> 00:22:23,445 and disciplines to imagine what a financially inclusive future might be. 447 00:22:23,735 --> 00:22:28,855 We are in conversation with Kokai Walker, and we're going to dive into the 448 00:22:28,855 --> 00:22:30,504 creation of the Future Money Podcast. 449 00:22:30,994 --> 00:22:34,765 But before then, Luella has a couple of questions for you, Kokai, about your 450 00:22:34,765 --> 00:22:39,985 own practice and your own thoughts about the intersection of art and technology. 451 00:22:41,300 --> 00:22:44,440 Lawil: What I was really interested about, Kukai, is actually how you perceive 452 00:22:44,460 --> 00:22:47,340 or how art and technology mediates the way you perceive the world around us. 453 00:22:47,950 --> 00:22:50,149 And how does that come back into your own practice? 454 00:22:51,629 --> 00:22:57,040 Kokayi: For me, I think all of it is, is a part of the ecosystem of creating. 455 00:22:57,970 --> 00:23:02,099 I think whenever you want to create something, you have these ideas and then 456 00:23:02,099 --> 00:23:07,350 you utilize the tools around you to help facilitate the creation of that idea. 457 00:23:08,510 --> 00:23:10,640 That's, that, you know, and I look at it, you know. 458 00:23:11,265 --> 00:23:14,885 For me, art and technology are two things that exist in my daily 459 00:23:14,885 --> 00:23:19,655 life, which wouldn't, you know, without them both, I don't even 460 00:23:19,655 --> 00:23:21,784 think I'd be able to manage, right? 461 00:23:21,805 --> 00:23:27,745 Just simple, simple from simple tasks, driven things to ways to escape, right? 462 00:23:27,745 --> 00:23:34,504 And ways to just, you know, Imagine a ways to rest or contemplate or think 463 00:23:34,504 --> 00:23:37,485 about, you know, I always need some sort of art, whether that's a good book 464 00:23:37,504 --> 00:23:43,924 or a good film or a great TV series or going to a museum, because I think all 465 00:23:43,924 --> 00:23:45,524 of those things are about inspiration. 466 00:23:45,784 --> 00:23:47,875 Lawil: But then is technology for you just a tool? 467 00:23:48,455 --> 00:23:50,524 Kokayi: Technology for me is also artistic. 468 00:23:50,915 --> 00:23:51,215 Right. 469 00:23:51,215 --> 00:23:53,275 There's an art within technology itself. 470 00:23:53,805 --> 00:23:58,715 Uh, there's an art in the way that the zeros and ones and pieces and little chat 471 00:23:58,715 --> 00:24:03,454 skis and things that we have been invented continue to make your life better. 472 00:24:03,455 --> 00:24:06,675 And it's not just a tool, but it's not a crutch either. 473 00:24:06,715 --> 00:24:07,314 You know what I mean? 474 00:24:07,334 --> 00:24:10,885 It's not something that I have to have in order to create this art. 475 00:24:11,095 --> 00:24:12,065 It's a great partner. 476 00:24:12,205 --> 00:24:13,335 Technology is a great. 477 00:24:13,730 --> 00:24:17,510 Partner, whenever you're trying to do something, gone are the days where I would 478 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,820 have to do things, you know, even make it a recording, like I would have to sing 479 00:24:21,820 --> 00:24:26,980 the same song to a different audience a million times without a way to record it. 480 00:24:27,330 --> 00:24:31,730 So it just, you know, I'm not a bard of old running around with a ukulele or 481 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,220 your lutes singing my songs, you know, professing my songs to the audience. 482 00:24:36,615 --> 00:24:38,625 I have recordings for that, that I send out. 483 00:24:38,625 --> 00:24:42,045 So of course the technological advancements have allowed me to re 484 00:24:42,315 --> 00:24:47,655 reach larger audiences and, and reach different individuals and be able to 485 00:24:47,655 --> 00:24:49,245 bring that message to more people. 486 00:24:49,245 --> 00:24:52,745 So it is a, you know, it's a great partner in what I'm trying to do when 487 00:24:52,745 --> 00:24:56,215 I wanna create something and share it, you know, even everything from 488 00:24:56,215 --> 00:24:58,405 social media on down, you know, to, to. 489 00:24:58,754 --> 00:25:03,685 Programs and, and discord groups and telegram and slack channels 490 00:25:03,685 --> 00:25:07,034 and all that other stuff is, is kind of integrated into my arts 491 00:25:07,074 --> 00:25:09,655 practice and in my daily life, right? 492 00:25:09,665 --> 00:25:13,674 So if I'm going to a museum, I'm definitely going to click on a QR 493 00:25:13,674 --> 00:25:17,255 code to figure out who this person is, to get the bio link to whatever that 494 00:25:17,255 --> 00:25:21,165 merch is or that book is that by the book or whatever, those are the ways 495 00:25:21,165 --> 00:25:22,544 that you interact so that you could. 496 00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:27,470 Walk off with the work, um, even if you can't afford the, the work that's on the 497 00:25:27,470 --> 00:25:31,830 wallet, let's say the Rubel, I could go get a print or something from the QR code. 498 00:25:31,980 --> 00:25:34,720 Lawil: Keeping in mind what you just said, I wonder what drives 499 00:25:34,750 --> 00:25:36,629 art or what drives technology? 500 00:25:36,639 --> 00:25:37,940 Where does the inspiration come from? 501 00:25:37,969 --> 00:25:41,330 Because it comes from one of those two parties, or is it a partnership for you? 502 00:25:41,370 --> 00:25:41,490 I 503 00:25:41,510 --> 00:25:43,040 Kokayi: think it's a partnership for both. 504 00:25:43,130 --> 00:25:47,300 I mean, I think, you know, the way that we imagine the world, you 505 00:25:47,300 --> 00:25:49,320 know, changes on a daily basis. 506 00:25:49,870 --> 00:25:53,030 The way that we imagine our lives changes on a daily basis. 507 00:25:53,379 --> 00:25:58,090 The way that we interpret the world changes on a daily basis based on, you 508 00:25:58,090 --> 00:26:01,179 know, these things start off when you're a kid is based on how you socialize. 509 00:26:01,219 --> 00:26:06,340 Like what were the tools that you had in your, in your toolbox when you were seven 510 00:26:06,629 --> 00:26:11,609 versus what they were when you're 17 or hopefully when you're 27 or 50, right? 511 00:26:11,660 --> 00:26:14,889 As you move through your life, there's different tools that 512 00:26:14,889 --> 00:26:19,989 you have that dictated how you socialize with individuals, right? 513 00:26:20,219 --> 00:26:23,639 You know, I don't necessarily reach in my wallet to pull out 5. 514 00:26:24,010 --> 00:26:27,250 When I go to the bar and hang out with friends anymore, like the round is on 515 00:26:27,250 --> 00:26:31,390 me, isn't necessarily me pulling out a lot of cash going the round's on me. 516 00:26:31,919 --> 00:26:35,490 No, my car's at the thing or blue, uh, you know, the round's on me blue. 517 00:26:35,580 --> 00:26:36,540 Uh, let's keep it moving. 518 00:26:36,919 --> 00:26:40,399 Like, I think those things, you know, are integrated and 519 00:26:40,399 --> 00:26:41,929 they often push one another. 520 00:26:41,929 --> 00:26:43,580 The, the, the ideas of ai. 521 00:26:44,294 --> 00:26:46,955 Have probably over the last, you know, this last three months of 522 00:26:46,975 --> 00:26:50,935 people talking about AI have probably spurred 9 million scripts, you know, 523 00:26:50,945 --> 00:26:55,284 a shout out to SAG AFTRA and the filmmakers and artists that are out 524 00:26:55,284 --> 00:26:57,354 here protesting to get equal rights. 525 00:26:57,374 --> 00:27:02,164 Like, cause that once again, that's real life technology working into our 526 00:27:02,165 --> 00:27:06,215 everyday lives to talk about how things are fair, how things are equitable. 527 00:27:06,495 --> 00:27:10,314 When we talk about technology, is technology the replacement for the actor? 528 00:27:10,584 --> 00:27:12,965 Is technology the replacement for the script writer? 529 00:27:13,264 --> 00:27:13,635 Right? 530 00:27:13,804 --> 00:27:15,195 Or is it a partnership? 531 00:27:15,195 --> 00:27:16,465 Is it a tool of partnership? 532 00:27:16,504 --> 00:27:21,614 And those that want to benefit from not having to pay you your worth 533 00:27:21,894 --> 00:27:25,735 are definitely going to lean on it for 100 percent of the work, 534 00:27:26,044 --> 00:27:27,665 100 percent of the digital world. 535 00:27:27,665 --> 00:27:27,725 Thank you. 536 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:34,389 100 percent of being able to control the image, those human beings that 537 00:27:34,399 --> 00:27:38,489 utilize the technology know that it's a partnership between the two that 538 00:27:38,489 --> 00:27:42,810 help you if you're stuck in the script to kind of move past being stuck, 539 00:27:42,889 --> 00:27:44,100 you know, having a writer's block. 540 00:27:44,710 --> 00:27:48,410 It's the thing in the script that allows for me to jump off a cliff, 541 00:27:48,410 --> 00:27:51,710 but it not really be a cliff, so I don't die in the making of this tale. 542 00:27:52,050 --> 00:27:55,630 But they can integrate an AI, you know, person that's floating through 543 00:27:55,630 --> 00:27:59,760 the air and be really close to being realistic to still create this product 544 00:28:00,030 --> 00:28:04,249 that we want audiences, this piece of art that we want audiences to love. 545 00:28:04,479 --> 00:28:04,789 Right? 546 00:28:04,959 --> 00:28:05,489 Hollis: Yeah. 547 00:28:05,669 --> 00:28:08,440 I'm so glad you brought that up because I think it really kind 548 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,420 of draws this tension and that. 549 00:28:10,990 --> 00:28:14,560 We're all kind of walking the tightrope on as creators. 550 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,290 On one hand, as you explained beautifully, like technology is a tool. 551 00:28:18,330 --> 00:28:20,500 It's a ability to empower. 552 00:28:20,500 --> 00:28:23,469 It's an ability to record, to create documentation. 553 00:28:23,835 --> 00:28:27,915 To, um, establish a legacy so that you don't have to be, you know, out there 554 00:28:27,915 --> 00:28:29,325 singing for your supper every night. 555 00:28:29,655 --> 00:28:32,425 Um, and you can create a body of work with the technological 556 00:28:32,445 --> 00:28:33,615 advancements that we have. 557 00:28:33,924 --> 00:28:37,525 On the other hand, you know, we've moved from technology as a 558 00:28:37,525 --> 00:28:39,554 tool to technology as a threat. 559 00:28:39,955 --> 00:28:43,635 And the ability, especially with those in power, as we're seeing with the 560 00:28:43,635 --> 00:28:49,715 Hollywood studios to see technology as a method of erasure for creatives 561 00:28:50,025 --> 00:28:52,414 or a replacement for creatives. 562 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,840 And I think that's where the tension lies, especially because we have a creative 563 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:01,770 class that is genuinely disempowered financially and a lot with the structures 564 00:29:01,770 --> 00:29:03,430 and is fighting for that empowerment. 565 00:29:03,830 --> 00:29:08,470 And, you know, as a musician, I look to folks like that are writers or actors, 566 00:29:08,470 --> 00:29:11,600 like they're so much more organized and they have so much more collective 567 00:29:11,610 --> 00:29:15,950 bargaining power, quite literally than we do as artists, you know? 568 00:29:16,290 --> 00:29:17,950 So I think about those collectives. 569 00:29:17,980 --> 00:29:18,270 But. 570 00:29:18,620 --> 00:29:23,459 Really understanding that technology has been seen as this great threat 571 00:29:23,490 --> 00:29:28,120 of erasure, this great threat of replacement for our creative expression. 572 00:29:28,529 --> 00:29:32,209 Um, and so how can we, and I think this walks up really beautifully to 573 00:29:32,209 --> 00:29:37,879 what the Future Money Artist Grant is, how can we actually reclaim the 574 00:29:37,879 --> 00:29:40,080 possibility of technology not to erase us? 575 00:29:40,895 --> 00:29:45,634 But to empower us, to center us, and to be used as a mechanism 576 00:29:46,015 --> 00:29:51,694 of, um, longevity instead of that which, like, kills our careers. 577 00:29:52,075 --> 00:29:56,015 Um, so I'm curious, like, to that end, like, the Future Money Artist Grant, 578 00:29:56,024 --> 00:29:58,555 like, how did this concept come to pass? 579 00:29:58,940 --> 00:30:01,900 And how did your experience being the community ambassador at the 580 00:30:01,900 --> 00:30:05,170 Interledger Foundation inform the way that the grant came to be? 581 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:10,250 Kokayi: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's very similar to all the things you just 582 00:30:10,589 --> 00:30:12,219 spoke about and what we touched on. 583 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,730 It was the idea that how do you have these technologies that don't 584 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,519 actually connect with people, right? 585 00:30:19,690 --> 00:30:23,330 How can we talk these, talk about these new ideas and concepts in a 586 00:30:23,330 --> 00:30:25,770 way that it will attract everybody? 587 00:30:26,100 --> 00:30:28,699 The conversation around the intersections of art. 588 00:30:29,035 --> 00:30:34,315 And technology have been conversations for a long time, making sure that 589 00:30:34,315 --> 00:30:39,375 there's a mechanism in which you pay actual people to imagine, you know, to 590 00:30:39,375 --> 00:30:43,095 create this work around this technology, technological idea, and it's great 591 00:30:43,295 --> 00:30:44,625 that it's happened, it happened. 592 00:30:44,945 --> 00:30:48,045 And then we're now in these conversations about AI and what that 593 00:30:48,045 --> 00:30:51,435 means and erasure and all of that other stuff, because I think we found 594 00:30:51,435 --> 00:30:53,365 a way to be able to empower artists. 595 00:30:54,165 --> 00:30:57,945 To give them, you know, the, the tools and the things that they need in terms of 596 00:30:57,945 --> 00:31:02,805 currency and financing and platforms, a place to go and actually exhibit the work. 597 00:31:03,115 --> 00:31:07,884 Um, which is a necessity for all artists and being equitable in that, right? 598 00:31:07,885 --> 00:31:11,734 So being intentional as a techno technology company, which could have 599 00:31:11,734 --> 00:31:15,515 said, you know, for exposure, guys, why don't you make us something? 600 00:31:15,585 --> 00:31:20,874 Or we'll just go plug in this AI situation and say, imagine the future of money 601 00:31:21,045 --> 00:31:22,825 and let AI spit out a bunch of work. 602 00:31:23,315 --> 00:31:26,185 We could have done that and it just would have been a bunch of posters 603 00:31:26,415 --> 00:31:30,115 sitting in whatever with no real individual saying, Hey, we use a 604 00:31:30,115 --> 00:31:32,065 bunch of prompts or mid journey. 605 00:31:32,235 --> 00:31:37,055 And now we have this art that imagine the future, but it was very intentional 606 00:31:37,065 --> 00:31:40,264 between Chris and myself when we started talking was like, how do 607 00:31:40,265 --> 00:31:42,144 you, how do you get these ideas out? 608 00:31:42,384 --> 00:31:46,675 And I started researching all of these grants around imagination. 609 00:31:47,090 --> 00:31:47,330 Right. 610 00:31:47,340 --> 00:31:49,600 All of these grants around imagining. 611 00:31:49,770 --> 00:31:53,350 And I was like, who does the most imagining in our society is the creative, 612 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:55,620 the creative has to imagine something. 613 00:31:55,799 --> 00:31:59,400 And even people that we don't think are creative on actually creators. 614 00:31:59,700 --> 00:31:59,970 Right. 615 00:31:59,980 --> 00:32:03,240 So the person who had the stoplight was like, you know what, I'm tired of 616 00:32:03,250 --> 00:32:04,650 people getting run over in traffic. 617 00:32:04,830 --> 00:32:06,000 I wonder how we could get it. 618 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:07,570 So people were paying attention. 619 00:32:07,890 --> 00:32:11,450 And then you choose the colors based on what you know about color 620 00:32:11,450 --> 00:32:12,550 theory and things of that nature. 621 00:32:12,550 --> 00:32:14,480 Why are the lights red and yellow and green? 622 00:32:14,740 --> 00:32:15,810 Why are those the colors? 623 00:32:15,820 --> 00:32:18,190 They could be blue, purple and white, but they're not. 624 00:32:18,650 --> 00:32:20,070 And it's intentional, right? 625 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:20,480 So. 626 00:32:20,940 --> 00:32:24,290 The creative person has to come up with the idea and it's like, yo, I 627 00:32:24,300 --> 00:32:25,700 think I want to solve this problem. 628 00:32:25,970 --> 00:32:30,539 And then that gets pushed utilizing technology, utilizing lights and 629 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,189 canisters and electricity and things of that nature, you have a stoplight. 630 00:32:34,410 --> 00:32:34,690 Right. 631 00:32:34,690 --> 00:32:38,489 And so when we start talking about equitable finance and financial 632 00:32:38,489 --> 00:32:42,140 inclusion and marginalized communities and barriers to entries, it was 633 00:32:42,150 --> 00:32:46,490 like, yo, who can imagine this better than people that are creative. 634 00:32:46,780 --> 00:32:48,940 And want to see these things happen. 635 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,400 And then in turn to not utilize the power that we have and 636 00:32:53,450 --> 00:32:54,790 the financing that we have. 637 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,510 To disenfranchise other artists that are typically in the space of being 638 00:32:59,510 --> 00:33:01,630 disenfranchised and underrepresented. 639 00:33:01,850 --> 00:33:05,350 How can we make sure that we give them the proper support 640 00:33:05,610 --> 00:33:07,520 as a technology company, right? 641 00:33:07,730 --> 00:33:11,379 To give them as a foundation, to give them proper support around the idea. 642 00:33:11,660 --> 00:33:15,760 And then a platform on which to share that idea that other people can see it. 643 00:33:16,090 --> 00:33:17,960 So that we're not selfish, right? 644 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,700 So that Interledger is not selfish about the work that's created. 645 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:22,100 How do we blast that out? 646 00:33:22,250 --> 00:33:25,930 And then how do we pay people for the services in a way that's fair? 647 00:33:25,930 --> 00:33:28,810 That's beyond 2, 000, which may just get you supplies. 648 00:33:29,290 --> 00:33:33,030 And so I think that's where, you know, we started with the thought process. 649 00:33:33,500 --> 00:33:37,450 Um, and then my experience as a community ambassador because my role changed a 650 00:33:37,450 --> 00:33:41,730 lot within intellectual is being able to talk to people as a creative myself, 651 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:46,260 being able to have conversations with other creative people, um, knowing, uh, 652 00:33:46,290 --> 00:33:49,270 and thinking about intentionally about what I would like, I mean, and, and then 653 00:33:49,279 --> 00:33:51,189 even I will as a person who designed. 654 00:33:51,665 --> 00:33:57,245 The application and everything utilizing her own experiences to be able to 655 00:33:57,255 --> 00:34:02,525 make an application that wasn't as horrible and crazy sounding as other 656 00:34:02,535 --> 00:34:04,504 applications that we've both experienced. 657 00:34:04,504 --> 00:34:08,685 And we've all experienced actually, you too, Alice, as an artist, the application 658 00:34:08,685 --> 00:34:12,835 hoop that you got to jump through to be able to just get, you know, 5, 000, which 659 00:34:13,165 --> 00:34:17,025 people in other situations think that 5, 000, even though it's accepted, thank you. 660 00:34:17,345 --> 00:34:19,585 But you know, 5, 000 ain't changing your life. 661 00:34:20,125 --> 00:34:23,885 You know, I think that's, you know, that was the impetus and that's the reason. 662 00:34:24,485 --> 00:34:27,655 Lawil: I absolutely love your thoughts surrounding the Arts and Culture 663 00:34:27,655 --> 00:34:29,275 Grant by the Intellectual Foundation. 664 00:34:29,704 --> 00:34:32,784 I was wondering, from the selection of artists, uh, that we have made, 665 00:34:33,055 --> 00:34:34,464 uh, do you have a favorite one? 666 00:34:34,485 --> 00:34:36,304 Or is there one that really inspires you? 667 00:34:37,214 --> 00:34:38,764 Kokayi: I don't necessarily have a favorite. 668 00:34:38,984 --> 00:34:41,865 I, I like the fact that it was different mediums. 669 00:34:42,175 --> 00:34:42,905 That was the thing. 670 00:34:43,075 --> 00:34:46,795 For me, it was just things that I could imagine seeing happen. 671 00:34:47,425 --> 00:34:47,715 Right. 672 00:34:47,735 --> 00:34:51,225 Help me to pick or just for me personally, right. 673 00:34:51,235 --> 00:34:54,555 The group of individuals that I was in and the grants that we looked at. 674 00:34:54,555 --> 00:34:57,605 But for me personally, I was like, yo, I can, if I could say to myself, 675 00:34:57,625 --> 00:34:59,185 oh, wow, I'd like to see that. 676 00:34:59,510 --> 00:35:01,580 That's what attracted me to it, right? 677 00:35:01,610 --> 00:35:05,270 I want to see what this thing, you know, especially, um, the young lady who's 678 00:35:05,270 --> 00:35:08,310 turning lottery tickets into a tapestry. 679 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,620 I was like, Oh my God, how many people do I know that played a lot of 680 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,560 that you scratch off tickets, right? 681 00:35:13,850 --> 00:35:18,069 And how many times do I see these scratch off tickets on the ground and what 682 00:35:18,070 --> 00:35:22,340 would a tapestry look like, you know, of those things that would represent. 683 00:35:22,930 --> 00:35:27,840 Money in and of itself, the waste, you know, it's an end the ecological 684 00:35:28,050 --> 00:35:30,560 implications of so it's no more is litter. 685 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:31,329 It's paper. 686 00:35:31,569 --> 00:35:33,410 It's non recyclable material. 687 00:35:33,720 --> 00:35:38,060 Then it's, you know, idea of putting all of this hope into this 688 00:35:38,069 --> 00:35:39,689 little ticket to fix your life. 689 00:35:40,095 --> 00:35:40,395 Right. 690 00:35:40,395 --> 00:35:44,385 And then putting that on a tapestry so that could be presented as an entirely 691 00:35:44,385 --> 00:35:46,805 recontextualization of the lottery. 692 00:35:46,875 --> 00:35:47,205 Right. 693 00:35:47,205 --> 00:35:48,975 And what does the lottery even mean? 694 00:35:49,185 --> 00:35:53,005 Because that if you take the definition of the word lottery and you think about 695 00:35:53,005 --> 00:35:56,605 it in non financial terms, lottery is how you get your citizenship. 696 00:35:56,844 --> 00:35:58,655 Lottery is how you get your papers. 697 00:35:58,885 --> 00:36:01,955 Sometimes lottery is how your kids get into school systems. 698 00:36:02,115 --> 00:36:02,565 It's crazy. 699 00:36:02,980 --> 00:36:05,120 Lawil: I used to say that lottery actually means hope. 700 00:36:06,170 --> 00:36:06,590 That's it. 701 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:07,990 You buy a small ticket of hope. 702 00:36:08,330 --> 00:36:11,240 And then once you see the numbers, you kind of like throw it out again. 703 00:36:11,260 --> 00:36:12,199 And that's it. 704 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:12,790 You move on. 705 00:36:12,820 --> 00:36:13,830 And next week is a new one. 706 00:36:14,345 --> 00:36:16,535 Kokayi: And is that, you're, and right, so then think about that, 707 00:36:16,535 --> 00:36:18,105 you're actually discarding hope. 708 00:36:18,395 --> 00:36:18,805 Lawil: Yes. 709 00:36:19,065 --> 00:36:21,255 Every time, at least when you lose, you discard hope. 710 00:36:21,255 --> 00:36:21,735 When you lose, 711 00:36:21,735 --> 00:36:22,825 Kokayi: you discard hope. 712 00:36:23,254 --> 00:36:24,795 That's a crazy thought process. 713 00:36:25,075 --> 00:36:25,324 Lawil: It is. 714 00:36:25,415 --> 00:36:25,455 So 715 00:36:25,455 --> 00:36:27,564 Kokayi: yeah, so that's, so that was one of the things that 716 00:36:27,575 --> 00:36:29,104 really, really spoke to me. 717 00:36:29,305 --> 00:36:33,205 The two, uh, gentlemen with the films, also because I was like, wow, 718 00:36:33,215 --> 00:36:36,655 what would this look like in terms of like, you know, in a film context 719 00:36:36,675 --> 00:36:41,345 and seeing it visually in that way, and then people are mad loud here. 720 00:36:41,675 --> 00:36:41,965 Um, 721 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,790 But seeing it visually and then figuring that out, they're excited to see they're 722 00:36:48,790 --> 00:36:50,200 excited about what we're gonna be doing. 723 00:36:51,020 --> 00:36:57,050 So, um, you know, but just, it was a number of things that spoke because 724 00:36:57,050 --> 00:36:58,610 they were all these different mediums. 725 00:36:58,690 --> 00:37:00,300 And I love when things are differently. 726 00:37:00,309 --> 00:37:03,030 I didn't want to see a whole bunch of paintings. 727 00:37:03,310 --> 00:37:07,400 I didn't want to see a whole bunch of, you know, cultures, just all one thing. 728 00:37:07,430 --> 00:37:08,680 And it was great to see. 729 00:37:09,090 --> 00:37:12,710 And the other thing that was super, super intentional is not 730 00:37:12,750 --> 00:37:14,320 everybody is not from America. 731 00:37:15,820 --> 00:37:18,219 Which is the thing that really, really spoke because 732 00:37:18,219 --> 00:37:19,580 I was like, oh, this is crazy. 733 00:37:19,780 --> 00:37:23,549 To have a global grant of these people coming in from all over the world, 734 00:37:23,969 --> 00:37:27,739 excuse me, to be able to express themselves in a way about finances. 735 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,160 So then you get different contexts. 736 00:37:29,885 --> 00:37:32,235 of finances or what finance means. 737 00:37:32,385 --> 00:37:36,505 You know, there's the storytelling, uh, person who the recipient who was 738 00:37:36,535 --> 00:37:41,225 telling these stories from other people in the village, older generations 739 00:37:41,225 --> 00:37:42,595 speaking to younger generations. 740 00:37:43,225 --> 00:37:46,465 Lawil: So, before I forget, the lottery one is Mia Wright Ross, so 741 00:37:46,465 --> 00:37:50,945 that's New York based, and then the storyteller from, uh, what is it, the 742 00:37:51,065 --> 00:37:55,934 Afrofuturistic Village Banking, that's Esther Mareiva, and she's from Zambia, 743 00:37:56,475 --> 00:38:01,334 and she's, uh, is a collaborator, John Adams from South Africa. 744 00:38:01,705 --> 00:38:04,615 The Afrofuturistic Village Banking is actually quite beautiful because it's 745 00:38:04,615 --> 00:38:07,534 kind of like a draw from the past in a combination with kind of like the 746 00:38:07,535 --> 00:38:10,685 Afrofuturism we actually know from, what is it, the 70s and the 80s. 747 00:38:10,895 --> 00:38:15,975 Very unsexy, so I'm quite curious about how she's going to, uh, intertwine both 748 00:38:15,975 --> 00:38:17,635 of these, uh, thoughts and streams. 749 00:38:18,985 --> 00:38:23,775 Kokayi: It's making sure that we spark this curiosity about financial 750 00:38:23,775 --> 00:38:25,645 inclusion, what that, what does that mean? 751 00:38:25,655 --> 00:38:27,065 All these different definitions. 752 00:38:27,575 --> 00:38:31,495 And then being able to see them, uh, in these different spaces 753 00:38:31,525 --> 00:38:32,975 from different imagination. 754 00:38:33,505 --> 00:38:35,815 And I think that's what's necessary when you want to get a message. 755 00:38:36,385 --> 00:38:37,125 Hollis: That's beautiful. 756 00:38:37,145 --> 00:38:40,645 So yeah, essentially, we launched as part of Interledger Foundation, 757 00:38:40,655 --> 00:38:42,145 the Future Money Artists Grant. 758 00:38:42,385 --> 00:38:47,595 Um, we had over a hundred submissions and we chose eight artists, um, that are, as 759 00:38:47,595 --> 00:38:49,735 Cook Haiyu said, from all over the world. 760 00:38:50,030 --> 00:38:51,280 The mediums are vast. 761 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:58,050 It goes from 3D modeling to food art to, um, audiovisual exhibitions 762 00:38:58,060 --> 00:39:01,250 that, as you had mentioned, Lowell, kind of go from past to future. 763 00:39:01,660 --> 00:39:07,760 Uh, we have two short films, we have two kind of artistic, generative, visual 764 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:12,820 art pieces, um, all of which that are going to be exhibited at the Interledger 765 00:39:12,830 --> 00:39:15,160 Summit, um, in Costa Rica this November. 766 00:39:15,450 --> 00:39:20,250 And on this podcast, you know, we're going from the genesis, the creator of the, 767 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,050 uh, Future Money Artist Grant, Kochai. 768 00:39:23,315 --> 00:39:26,425 Um, and we're so thankful for your time today and sharing your 769 00:39:26,435 --> 00:39:30,615 philosophies and also your experiences of how financial inclusion and 770 00:39:30,615 --> 00:39:32,685 exclusion have impacted your work. 771 00:39:32,925 --> 00:39:37,664 Um, and our next conversations are going to be with the artists themselves to talk 772 00:39:37,664 --> 00:39:43,215 to them about how this grant provides an opportunity for them to both, uh, 773 00:39:43,235 --> 00:39:49,790 contemplate and also envision new futures of financial inclusion, um, as funded and 774 00:39:49,790 --> 00:39:51,620 inspired by the Interledger Foundation. 775 00:39:51,980 --> 00:39:55,340 Um, before we sign off, Pokai, is there anything that you want to shout out, 776 00:39:55,380 --> 00:39:59,499 um, or any last thoughts that you'd like to share, um, both as a member 777 00:39:59,500 --> 00:40:03,300 of the Interledger Foundation, Sam, as well as a fantastic multidisciplinary 778 00:40:03,670 --> 00:40:04,610 artist in your own right? 779 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:06,259 Kokayi: Uh, no, not much. 780 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,119 I just want to say thank you, uh, to you both for being such wonderful 781 00:40:10,119 --> 00:40:15,850 hosts, um, and shining the light on this grant, and hopefully, The idea 782 00:40:15,850 --> 00:40:20,530 of intervention grants, which is the name that we came up with around this 783 00:40:20,530 --> 00:40:22,510 granting process can continue, right? 784 00:40:22,530 --> 00:40:27,220 So that it's not just intervention around art, but it could be anything else, just 785 00:40:27,390 --> 00:40:32,209 future money, whatever other systems and things we want to kind of decentralize 786 00:40:32,209 --> 00:40:39,010 and, uh, you know, democratize for the people, um, can continue on. 787 00:40:39,010 --> 00:40:43,019 And I appreciate Intelligent Foundation for even going through with this because 788 00:40:43,220 --> 00:40:44,960 in the technology space, we know. 789 00:40:45,350 --> 00:40:49,150 That oftentimes people are beholden to the shareholders, uh, more 790 00:40:49,150 --> 00:40:52,170 so than they are beholden to the wants and needs of the people. 791 00:40:52,510 --> 00:40:55,310 And this is why I rock with intellectuals from day one. 792 00:40:55,855 --> 00:40:58,275 Because they were very, very intentional about the things that they did. 793 00:40:58,715 --> 00:41:00,484 So I appreciate you both. 794 00:41:00,665 --> 00:41:01,065 Hollis: Awesome. 795 00:41:01,135 --> 00:41:04,334 On behalf of Lowell and I, thanks so much for tuning in to our very first 796 00:41:04,334 --> 00:41:06,254 episode of Future Money Podcast. 797 00:41:06,265 --> 00:41:11,455 And make sure to subscribe and like our podcast on Spotify, Apple Music, 798 00:41:11,465 --> 00:41:13,135 or wherever you listen to your pods. 799 00:41:13,475 --> 00:41:19,735 And we'll be at you next episode, talking to the kickoff artist of 800 00:41:19,735 --> 00:41:21,945 our Future Money Artist cohort. 801 00:41:22,245 --> 00:41:23,175 Thanks so much for joining.