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Lawil: Welcome to another episode
of the Future Money podcast.

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And this episode, I want to introduce
you to one of our newest hosts.

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It's somebody you might've known
already because she's been in our

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community for more than five years.

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It's Sabine Scheller.

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She's the engineering manager at
the Intelligent Foundation, and

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she's always been interested in data
ownership and the internet of value.

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But today it's not about us hosts.

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But it's about Joran, the
founder and CEO of Tiger Beetle.

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And in this episode, we'll
dive deeper into his background

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in business and coding.

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And of course, his journey from Cape
Town towards leading a global team, a

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group of people whose collective aim is
to revolutionize financial transactions.

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Joran: Hey, Laval.

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Thanks for having me and a
pleasure to be here with you all.

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And my name is Joran.

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I'm a founder and CEO of Tiger Beetle.

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A little bit about me.

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I've always loved.

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Business.

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And since I was a kid, I was on
the playground, you know, providing

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marbles or, um, all kinds of things.

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And I've, I've always loved this idea of
creating something to serve, to make an

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impact and make things that people want.

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And I, along the way, I've, I've, I got
into coding and I've always loved coding.

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So I'm a self taught.

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And I got into computer science research
and self taught and all those papers.

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And so I've always loved
business, always loved coding.

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I happen to be from a corner
of the world that is close to

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Antarctica, which is Cape Town.

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And in my head, I work
all around the world.

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I work mostly in the States,
but most of my team are there.

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And I guess I love music and kitesurfing.

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We could talk more about that.

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Lawil: Actually, what I really
want to know is your marble game.

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Joran: I'm sorry,

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. 
Lawil: It kind of like, it really
fascinated me about you talking

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about the fact that you had an
interest in business and what is it?

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Selling marbles or collecting the marbles?

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Joran: Yeah, selling.

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Selling marbles.

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Well, actually I used to sell
insurance for the marble games

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so people would play marbles.

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The problem that people were facing, this
was the big pain, was that someone would

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win a marble game and in winning it they,
they would sometimes play with these

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big iron marbles and damage and smash.

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The glass marbles, so you would win
the game, but you know, the marble

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that you actually win is broken.

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So what I used to do was
I would sell insurance.

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So you know, depending on who won, you
would get a whole new marble that you win.

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I can't remember how I worked up the
economics, but there was insurance on

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the playground in terms of marbles and it
made marbles better because you win a game

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and now you don't get a broken marble,
but you get, you get something new.

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There's a whole story there, you know,
all the many different business things.

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But I guess the biggest learning
that I ever had was that business

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is really all about trust and that
that is what makes business happens.

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Trust and trust is a wonderful thing.

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If it's there, Things
move so much quicker.

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There's more velocity.

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Everything gets better.

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The more trust there
is, it unlocks business.

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So that, that took me a long time to
learn, but that was the biggest learning

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through all those years of running,
whether it was selling computers, when I

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was older, building websites for people,
doing events and interesting things.

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It was always like at the end of
the day, it came down to trust.

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Um, if people trust you, they, they
will ask you to do things for them

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and happy to pay you to do that.

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And that's business.

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Sabine: So if you are so passionate
about business, why did you

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decide to start a company like
Tiger Beetle that is more techie?

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And why did you decide
to make it that global?

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Joran: Yes, I think this is
comes to, like, Why do we

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decide what careers we go into?

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My father's an architect.

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So I grew up learning, loving,
appreciating architecture.

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He used to teach me things like form
follows function and these, these amazing

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things, like how do people move through
a building circulation, you know, like

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a building is like the human body.

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There's circulation and people
are moving through it because they

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have a job to do or the building
performs a purpose in society.

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And so like, he taught
me all these lessons.

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And we really connect today on these
things and like design, like design

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is how it works and architecture
and what, what is, what is art?

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You know, there's so architecture
is wonderful because it brings

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engineering together with art clearly
and obviously like it just has to be

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so why, why software and technology?

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Well, to me, it was what
I realized was that.

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If you go into architecture, the beautiful
thing is that what you make, it almost

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lives forever because it, these buildings,
you know, that you design, they live on

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and so you have so much responsibility
in what you create, but also they do

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live on, which is nice, you know, it
doesn't, software is different because

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you create it and a year later it's out
of date or it's a bit rotted, you know,

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but the nice thing I appreciated with
software was that, You can make stuff

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and you don't need the raw materials.

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You don't need cranes.

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You don't need bricks.

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You don't need a team of civil
engineers and all the other

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engineers and quantity surveyors.

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It's like the movie Inception.

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You can go and be an architect in this
invisible world and create things.

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And you don't have to pay
for the raw materials.

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Which means that you can be
like I was, 11 years old.

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You can take books out of the
school library and teach yourself

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to code and start building these.

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And it's, it's like you're building
your own Minecraft, you know, and

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anyone can do it like Ratatouille.

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Anyone can cook, but coding is
actually more true because you

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don't even pay for your groceries.

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You, you just need somewhere you can type
and write code and you can create things.

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So you can be an architect
in an invisible world.

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And then the other thing that
attracted was business because you

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can really change people's lives and
let them do things through technology.

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It's a real enabler.

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And again, it's highly scalable.

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So like a small team of people can change
the world and let them communicate or

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create platforms where people have jobs.

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And you don't need a lot to do it.

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So that, that was always what
inspired me for technology.

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Both of those, the, you can create
and you can serve and you, you

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need very little to do that.

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Lawil: So for our listeners who've
never heard of Tiger Beetle or of

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a, what is an accounting database?

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Can you explain it a little bit better?

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Joran: Yeah, so Tiger Beetle is a
financial transactions database.

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What are financial transactions?

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It's just another way of
saying, let's do business.

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So if you're a kid in the playground
selling marbles, that's a transaction.

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The marble moves from Andile to Bongani.

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So it's a debit credit in the accounting
sense, but someone is losing the

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marble and someone is getting it.

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And that, that is a business
or financial transaction.

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Well, it's a marble transaction,
but it, it could be gold, you

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know, gold marbles or steel marbles
or, or just cash or insurance.

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But these are all
transactions all around us.

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So, If you go into the mall and you
tap your phone, that's a transaction.

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If you receive your
paycheck, it's a transaction.

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If you buy some stock, you know, in a,
in a company, that's even a transaction.

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It's a big transaction.

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So everything we do, if you book an
Uber driver, that's a transaction.

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You book a seat on a plane, it's a
transaction in a cinema transaction.

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So Tiger Beetle is a financial
transactions database.

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And that means that it is the engine.

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Any kind of business would use.

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To record the transactions they do as you
do business, you're doing transactions,

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but it's not even for business.

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It's for foundations.

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You know, as people donate money, that
is a transaction and you record that.

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So the whole world really, I think
revolves around trust and goods

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and services and time move from
one personal place to another.

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And that flow of things or information
or value, that's all transactions.

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And In this digital world, you
know, that is all around us.

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You need systems to
record these transactions.

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And so that that's what Tiger
Beetle does as a database.

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Sabine: I would love to hear more details,
but before we go there, is your marble

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selling game, was that the inspiration or
what was the inspiration for Tiger Beetle?

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Joran: Okay.

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So I kind of, when I was 11, I got
into coding and I loved it and I

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realized here's this whole new world,
create things, no raw materials.

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You can, you're an architect
and it's this movie Inception

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and you're building things.

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Then, so I always knew I
wanted to go into business.

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It was my passion, entrepreneur.

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My grandfather immigrated from the
Netherlands and he built up a business.

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My father had his own business.

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So that's always what I love doing is
to serve people honorably at a profit

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business, but great business definition.

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Like the world always has
these holes everywhere.

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And the world society needs them to be
filled by nonprofits or by businesses.

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So we have bakeries because it makes sense
that someone should get up at 4 AM in the

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morning and bake bread for the community.

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That makes a lot of sense.

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So the community needs that to exist.

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So, so kind of, you have, you have
these needs everywhere and, and

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that is why these things, you know,
should arise is to serve those needs.

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So this is macroeconomic, you
know, the, the, the thinking, you

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know, what does the world need?

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And what I saw, I was quite lucky.

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I was just playing soccer on a
field and I bumped into someone

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who was working on interledger
and I said, Oh, that sounds cool.

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Intelligent protocol, because
it's connecting systems together

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that transactions can happen.

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And I didn't really know much
about payment systems or financial

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transactions at that point.

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But what I did know is I always
had this passion for business.

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And because of that passion, I
had an engineering scholarship,

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but I actually gave it up.

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And the reason why I gave it up, you
know, not to go into like engineering

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or, or coding was it was so that I
could study financial accounting.

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And the reason was because someone
said to me, these debit credits, uh,

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how you record mobile transactions
and all the transactions of the world

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already debit credit, something moving
from one place or person to another.

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And so I had this background that the way
businesses can be expressed on paper in

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the real world and the way it is done for
centuries in every country virtually is

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debit credit, double entry accounting.

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It's like the first law of thermodynamics.

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Money cannot be created nor destroyed, but
merely moves from one account to another.

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And So I had this background
and that's why I studied that.

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And so I had this love of coding,
love of business, and the love of

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the business schema, debit credit.

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And then, you know, just lucky to be
consulting as it happened together

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with intelligent and coil, like on
the, Bill and Melinda Gates, a central

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bank payment switch or a central bank
switch, which is called Mojaloop.

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And that switch is really just doing
debit credit at a national scale.

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Like, you know, you've, you've got
banks, those banks have got users and, or

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people and, and those people want to send
money, you know, from Mandili to Mungani.

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And at some point that has been recorded
and the money is moving from bank to bank.

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It's these little, you know,
Debit credits happening.

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And so looking at the system and then
seeing how they were building it.

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And what was interesting was they
weren't using a transactions database.

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Well, they were, they were using
what historically people, you know,

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people thought was, but they were
really using a general purpose

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engine, a general purpose database.

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to record transactions.

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And this database wasn't
giving you the debit credits.

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It was giving SQL queries.

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And so you had to do a lot of work as
a developer before you could even just

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Put transactions through the database.

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And that was why the whole
switch was being built.

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So then looking at this
problem, you see two problems.

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The first is that there's
an impedance mismatch.

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So people want to record business
transactions or nonprofit transactions,

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everyday transactions of life
through the switch with debit credit.

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But the database to power this
doesn't speak this language.

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It speaks a much lower level
language that is more takes a

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lot of work to get right on top.

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And that's also slow because now the
there was the sort of limit to how fast

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00:12:55,780 --> 00:13:00,850
the switch could possibly go because
it All the performance didn't matter

228
00:13:00,850 --> 00:13:05,329
how much hardware you gave the general
purpose database, how many machines, the

229
00:13:05,329 --> 00:13:07,470
performance was just fundamentally kept.

230
00:13:07,900 --> 00:13:11,319
And from, from there came Tiger Beetle,
you know, let's make a financial

231
00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:16,120
transactions database with that background
of coding background of debit credit.

232
00:13:16,949 --> 00:13:21,920
Let's just create an engine that you can
drop into a car and suddenly it goes a

233
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,860
thousand times faster because the engine
is powering the car in the right way.

234
00:13:27,155 --> 00:13:28,325
It was meant for this.

235
00:13:28,625 --> 00:13:33,185
Sabine: So making sure that you
get debits and credits right on a

236
00:13:33,185 --> 00:13:35,215
traditional database is very hard.

237
00:13:35,505 --> 00:13:38,275
But when you build your database
from scratch, you also need to

238
00:13:38,275 --> 00:13:41,225
make sure that this is rock solid.

239
00:13:41,225 --> 00:13:47,345
So how do you ensure that fault tolerance
and the high availability on Tiger Beetle?

240
00:13:47,845 --> 00:13:50,875
Joran: What a question, you know,
that that's exactly the problem.

241
00:13:51,235 --> 00:13:53,785
And I think also what's
interesting is you can't.

242
00:13:54,505 --> 00:14:00,005
It's not enough to be as safe
as existing databases, either.

243
00:14:00,305 --> 00:14:04,245
You can't just say to people, look,
we're as safe as the status quo.

244
00:14:04,975 --> 00:14:08,225
Because then there is, you know,
there's some incentive to change,

245
00:14:08,245 --> 00:14:12,405
but people will also look at you and
say, ah, you think you're as safe.

246
00:14:12,504 --> 00:14:14,804
So actually, you need
to be 10 times safer.

247
00:14:15,615 --> 00:14:17,335
But there's also an opportunity there.

248
00:14:17,335 --> 00:14:23,725
So here's the context, is that The
general purpose database powering most

249
00:14:23,725 --> 00:14:29,605
systems today, most business transactions,
it's either Postgres number one, MySQL

250
00:14:29,605 --> 00:14:31,465
number two, or SQLite number three.

251
00:14:31,924 --> 00:14:35,015
The number one and two on the
podium there are both 30 years

252
00:14:35,015 --> 00:14:36,785
old, give or take a year.

253
00:14:36,824 --> 00:14:39,224
So they're 1995, 1996.

254
00:14:40,875 --> 00:14:45,625
And if you think of it that way, you're
like, wow, iPhones didn't exist back then.

255
00:14:46,255 --> 00:14:51,375
There's been so much research in computer
science in the last 30 years, hardware

256
00:14:51,385 --> 00:14:57,655
has changed, we've got cloud didn't
exist back then, NVMe drives didn't

257
00:14:57,655 --> 00:15:03,654
exist back then, the scale of the world
today, the volume of transactions was,

258
00:15:04,464 --> 00:15:09,205
you know, in the last seven years alone,
in many sectors, the scale has increased

259
00:15:09,205 --> 00:15:11,457
a thousand times to 10, 000 times.

260
00:15:11,457 --> 00:15:13,960
So, That's even in the last seven years.

261
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:18,600
And even the cloud databases,
they were designed mostly 2012.

262
00:15:18,610 --> 00:15:20,030
So 12 years ago.

263
00:15:20,620 --> 00:15:24,750
But when you look at the most popular
open source general purpose databases,

264
00:15:24,790 --> 00:15:30,540
they're 30 years old, and the world has
like just Change that was the nineties,

265
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:35,839
you know, the, the years of smashing
pumpkins, one of my favorite bands, but so

266
00:15:35,839 --> 00:15:39,800
much great music you can, you can sort of
figure out, you know, with your coworkers,

267
00:15:39,810 --> 00:15:44,119
some, I've got fantastic coworkers
and it's awesome to see, you know.

268
00:15:44,870 --> 00:15:48,460
Depending on our age difference, you
know, have they heard that song by

269
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,740
Blur, uh, Song 2, and they've never
heard it before, and then you put it

270
00:15:52,740 --> 00:15:55,960
on, and like, they're hearing this
amazing hit single for the first time,

271
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:57,310
and you know it's going to be amazing.

272
00:15:57,759 --> 00:16:02,230
So I guess in musical terms, 30 years
is not a long time, but in technology

273
00:16:02,230 --> 00:16:03,870
terms, it's like an eternity.

274
00:16:03,870 --> 00:16:08,310
So we got so much more research
into how to design safer systems.

275
00:16:08,485 --> 00:16:09,695
The hardware has changed.

276
00:16:09,695 --> 00:16:13,255
And so if you want to build an
engine today, you're not going to

277
00:16:13,255 --> 00:16:14,935
make an internal combustion engine.

278
00:16:14,975 --> 00:16:18,195
You're going to make an electric
engine, you know, it's electric vehicle.

279
00:16:18,195 --> 00:16:20,015
Actually there is no, there is no engine.

280
00:16:20,504 --> 00:16:24,235
So everything is fundamentally changed
in how you would build a financial

281
00:16:24,235 --> 00:16:26,545
transactions database or engine today.

282
00:16:26,845 --> 00:16:28,765
You would build it totally differently.

283
00:16:29,095 --> 00:16:34,285
And so kind of, this is the opportunity
we had was that, uh, yes, these

284
00:16:34,325 --> 00:16:36,145
databases are tried and tested.

285
00:16:36,735 --> 00:16:41,315
No, they don't use, there's 30
years of research since then

286
00:16:41,935 --> 00:16:43,255
that they just don't have.

287
00:16:43,295 --> 00:16:47,505
And so our systems today are
suffering because they're not using

288
00:16:47,505 --> 00:16:49,044
state of the art infrastructure.

289
00:16:49,495 --> 00:16:53,625
And I think the time has come because of
where the world is going with scale, that

290
00:16:53,694 --> 00:16:56,274
to just keep up, you have to reset things.

291
00:16:57,174 --> 00:17:00,885
So Tiger Beetle was very much, how
can we design to be 10 times safer?

292
00:17:01,354 --> 00:17:04,004
But actually you can because
it's all there in the research

293
00:17:04,004 --> 00:17:05,675
on how to do it, how to test it.

294
00:17:06,105 --> 00:17:07,724
There's new ways to test.

295
00:17:07,734 --> 00:17:11,564
So old, old databases are very
much let's write millions of

296
00:17:11,564 --> 00:17:13,415
lines of test code by hand.

297
00:17:14,175 --> 00:17:17,615
Today with Tiger Beetle,
we do autonomous testing.

298
00:17:18,065 --> 00:17:23,895
So we spin up 100 CPU cores and they
simulate Tiger Beetle, they actually

299
00:17:23,935 --> 00:17:29,125
accelerate time, run Tiger Beetle in
the simulator, like a flight simulator.

300
00:17:29,165 --> 00:17:32,465
So that you're not in the past,
you know, databases are like,

301
00:17:32,465 --> 00:17:34,255
let's learn to fly for real.

302
00:17:35,185 --> 00:17:40,574
And you're like, Ooh, like now, now, now
this pilot is going to learn by getting

303
00:17:40,574 --> 00:17:42,955
in the plane with people in the plane.

304
00:17:42,955 --> 00:17:45,615
And that's how you learn, like,
and that's a hard way to learn.

305
00:17:45,675 --> 00:17:49,084
And obviously you don't, but that
is how the history of databases,

306
00:17:49,084 --> 00:17:50,204
like that's how you learn.

307
00:17:50,264 --> 00:17:52,209
You just, You flew the thing for real.

308
00:17:52,770 --> 00:17:56,300
And these days, there's three
databases in the world that do this.

309
00:17:56,300 --> 00:18:00,090
FoundationDB, um, Apples,
Cassandra, and Tiger Beetle.

310
00:18:00,790 --> 00:18:03,740
There's new techniques now that
we use where you create a flight

311
00:18:03,740 --> 00:18:06,740
simulator, and you run the database
in there and accelerate time.

312
00:18:07,399 --> 00:18:08,909
And if you crash, it's fine.

313
00:18:08,919 --> 00:18:10,619
No one, no one gets hurt.

314
00:18:11,010 --> 00:18:12,010
It's simulated.

315
00:18:12,330 --> 00:18:17,040
But to do that, you have to design the
whole database to be tested like this.

316
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,540
So that's, that's how we
did it for Tiger Beetle.

317
00:18:19,790 --> 00:18:22,310
Sabine: So you said that Tiger
Beetle is inspired by research.

318
00:18:22,350 --> 00:18:26,039
And I do know a little bit about that
research that went into Tiger Beetle.

319
00:18:26,550 --> 00:18:29,889
And maybe this is getting a bit nerdy
now, but can you tell us a little

320
00:18:29,889 --> 00:18:31,799
bit about the basis of Tiger Beetle?

321
00:18:32,270 --> 00:18:32,510
Joran: Yeah.

322
00:18:32,510 --> 00:18:33,690
Let's nerd out Sabine.

323
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:35,600
So we're going to go deep here.

324
00:18:35,630 --> 00:18:38,740
We're going to rabbit hole like,
you know, to the ends of the earth,

325
00:18:38,930 --> 00:18:40,650
um, out to space and back again.

326
00:18:40,990 --> 00:18:46,179
So this is the other interesting thing
is that a lot of databases that are 30

327
00:18:46,179 --> 00:18:52,849
years old, they were designed before
what is called a consensus protocol.

328
00:18:53,620 --> 00:18:59,030
So what I mean is in those days, you
got your software on a stiffy disk.

329
00:19:00,150 --> 00:19:03,970
And if you played games, you
ran your game on one computer.

330
00:19:04,419 --> 00:19:06,750
And if you wanted to play games
with someone else, they had to be

331
00:19:06,750 --> 00:19:09,840
in the same room with you, and you
had to connect via Ethernet cable,

332
00:19:10,169 --> 00:19:11,620
and that's how you played games.

333
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:16,509
And there was no concept of that you
can play games with someone around

334
00:19:16,510 --> 00:19:21,259
the world, or that we can have a
chat like this around the world, but

335
00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:24,920
how come we're not in the same room
connected via Ethernet cable, you know?

336
00:19:25,275 --> 00:19:26,835
But we don't need to be,
there's the internet.

337
00:19:27,435 --> 00:19:29,935
I guess there's a story there for
Interledger, like what Interledger

338
00:19:29,935 --> 00:19:32,545
is doing for payments, what
the internet did for networks.

339
00:19:32,585 --> 00:19:35,794
Uh, but that, okay,
hopefully we come to that.

340
00:19:35,794 --> 00:19:41,884
But, and then since that time, like of the
90s, already in the 80s, the research was

341
00:19:41,884 --> 00:19:43,664
there, but people didn't really know it.

342
00:19:44,225 --> 00:19:45,934
And that research was 88.

343
00:19:45,934 --> 00:19:47,764
It was called viewstamp replication.

344
00:19:48,285 --> 00:19:50,275
And this came out of MIT.

345
00:19:50,345 --> 00:19:54,755
It was Brian Oki under Barbara
Liskov, who was a Turing award winner.

346
00:19:55,604 --> 00:20:00,944
And this research was how do we
create software that runs across

347
00:20:00,985 --> 00:20:03,344
more than one machine simultaneously?

348
00:20:03,414 --> 00:20:08,815
So software that can run Like you can
make a data center and make a data center

349
00:20:08,855 --> 00:20:14,675
a computer, or you can take three data
centers and make them look like one

350
00:20:14,675 --> 00:20:20,105
computer, because if you can do that,
a data center can disconnect from the

351
00:20:20,105 --> 00:20:25,034
grid or have power loss or be destroyed,
unfortunately, or something could happen.

352
00:20:25,875 --> 00:20:28,825
But you have now two other data centers
still, and you're still running.

353
00:20:29,185 --> 00:20:32,155
So to the rest of the world,
it's like, wow, the software is

354
00:20:32,155 --> 00:20:36,395
running across computers, across
networks, even across data centers.

355
00:20:36,395 --> 00:20:37,815
So it's highly reliable.

356
00:20:38,645 --> 00:20:41,484
But now that research is
called a consensus protocol.

357
00:20:41,485 --> 00:20:42,435
That's how you do it.

358
00:20:42,975 --> 00:20:43,495
And.

359
00:20:43,805 --> 00:20:47,385
It's probably one of the coolest
algorithms in computer science

360
00:20:47,855 --> 00:20:52,034
for me, and it's also kind of like
the Everest, because to implement

361
00:20:52,044 --> 00:20:53,725
these algorithms is very hard.

362
00:20:54,065 --> 00:20:58,174
So because it's, it's software that
runs across computers in real time, like

363
00:20:58,375 --> 00:21:02,764
actually multi multiplayer games are
even cooler and harder because they've

364
00:21:02,764 --> 00:21:06,434
been doing this for years, you know,
since, since those days of, of ethernet.

365
00:21:06,975 --> 00:21:11,995
But, um, ViewStamp replication was the
first pioneering consensus protocol.

366
00:21:12,275 --> 00:21:16,425
A year later, Paxos came out by
Leslie Lamport, very much influenced,

367
00:21:16,425 --> 00:21:18,365
I think, by ViewStamp replication.

368
00:21:18,935 --> 00:21:25,254
And then years later, 2012, ViewStamp
replication was revised by Barbara

369
00:21:25,254 --> 00:21:27,225
Liskov, James Carling at MIT.

370
00:21:27,585 --> 00:21:32,409
And then two years later, Raft came
out, which is very popular and raft

371
00:21:32,409 --> 00:21:34,899
was more or less viewstamp replication.

372
00:21:35,330 --> 00:21:40,189
The names were changed and a few things
were like oversimplified, I think,

373
00:21:40,189 --> 00:21:43,679
to make it for teaching purposes and
that you'll see the raft paper, you

374
00:21:43,679 --> 00:21:47,159
know, credits viewstamp replication
that it's, it's so, so similar.

375
00:21:47,790 --> 00:21:51,000
So really, really underneath all
these consensus protocols, the

376
00:21:51,140 --> 00:21:52,850
original is viewstamp replication.

377
00:21:53,300 --> 00:21:57,570
And so that's why, for Tiger Beetle,
we wanted Tiger Beetle to run across

378
00:21:57,590 --> 00:22:01,610
data centers, because it's, you
know, people's money is so critical.

379
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,539
These 30 year old systems,
they're a single machine.

380
00:22:05,795 --> 00:22:10,105
Yes, you can make backups, but they
don't do the backups in real time.

381
00:22:10,165 --> 00:22:14,115
So if, if you lose a machine, you are
going to lose some portion of people's

382
00:22:14,115 --> 00:22:16,845
money, or you're going to have downtime.

383
00:22:17,224 --> 00:22:20,155
You can't have both because they
don't have a consensus protocol.

384
00:22:20,485 --> 00:22:25,665
So for tiger beetle, the hard decision
was like, we actually need to climb

385
00:22:25,665 --> 00:22:29,295
Everest and go and get ourselves
one of these consensus protocols and

386
00:22:29,635 --> 00:22:32,745
do it for tiger beetle so you can
run a few beetles around the world.

387
00:22:33,420 --> 00:22:35,530
And they've, you can't
take them out there.

388
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,010
It's very, very reliable.

389
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,300
And that's why we have the simulator
is that you can simulate, you know,

390
00:22:41,639 --> 00:22:43,514
how to get this algorithm, right.

391
00:22:44,085 --> 00:22:47,955
But that's really kind of what Tiger
Beetle gives you is you don't, you

392
00:22:47,955 --> 00:22:52,735
don't need to use proprietary cloud
software or cloud database that you

393
00:22:52,735 --> 00:22:54,785
can only run in one cloud provider.

394
00:22:55,195 --> 00:23:00,984
Tiger Beetle is open source software you
can run across multiple clouds all over.

395
00:23:01,015 --> 00:23:04,834
So Amazon can go down and you're still
running and then Amazon comes back and

396
00:23:04,834 --> 00:23:06,534
Google goes down and you're still running.

397
00:23:07,085 --> 00:23:11,044
But you, you can do this kind of like
high availability with, with Tiger Beetle.

398
00:23:11,054 --> 00:23:15,855
So that's, yeah, that's why we needed a
consensus protocol and why we specifically

399
00:23:15,855 --> 00:23:20,125
picked Fustam for education just to
kind of pay tribute to that pioneer.

400
00:23:20,484 --> 00:23:22,695
And it was the one that
was most intuitive.

401
00:23:27,945 --> 00:23:33,145
Ayesha: Hey there listeners, podcast,
where we explore everything related

402
00:23:33,165 --> 00:23:34,745
to digital financial inclusion.

403
00:23:35,250 --> 00:23:38,840
I'm Aisha Ware, Program Manager at
the Intellectual Foundation, and

404
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:40,420
we've got something exciting for you.

405
00:23:40,950 --> 00:23:44,970
But before we dive back into the episode,
I wanted to share a project I was

406
00:23:44,970 --> 00:23:49,720
involved in collaboration with Carolyn
Malachi and students at Howard University

407
00:23:49,939 --> 00:23:51,620
Advanced Audio Production Course.

408
00:23:52,145 --> 00:23:55,295
The course is a capstone for
seniors in the audio sequence.

409
00:23:55,705 --> 00:23:58,975
It is designed to challenge
students to develop long form audio

410
00:23:58,975 --> 00:24:03,575
productions, including podcasts,
audiobooks, film scores, and more.

411
00:24:03,974 --> 00:24:07,194
Through this project, students
created interstitials about

412
00:24:07,235 --> 00:24:08,374
Interledger for our podcast.

413
00:24:09,090 --> 00:24:13,960
Here's a sample from Elijah Kirksey,
a 2023 graduate of Howard University.

414
00:24:14,410 --> 00:24:14,720
Stay tuned.

415
00:24:17,020 --> 00:24:19,230
Elijah: Are you ready to be a
part of something revolutionary?

416
00:24:19,779 --> 00:24:23,120
Welcome to the Interledger Summit,
a global gathering of people

417
00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:26,540
transforming the future of digital
finance through open technology.

418
00:24:27,059 --> 00:24:31,140
It brings together innovators,
regulators, and everyday individuals to

419
00:24:31,140 --> 00:24:33,180
bridge the gap in financial services.

420
00:24:33,610 --> 00:24:36,890
Join us as we hear from the
trailblazers who are changing the game.

421
00:24:37,030 --> 00:24:41,460
From community problem solvers to
visionary artists, everyone has a voice

422
00:24:41,460 --> 00:24:43,000
in building a more inclusive world.

423
00:24:45,009 --> 00:24:46,019
It's more than an event.

424
00:24:46,469 --> 00:24:49,799
It's a chance to build new
connections, spark conversations,

425
00:24:50,139 --> 00:24:53,550
and collaborate on ideas that
have the power to transform lives.

426
00:24:54,029 --> 00:24:56,570
Don't miss out on this opportunity to
be a part of something transformative.

427
00:24:56,570 --> 00:24:58,959
Visit interledger.

428
00:24:58,959 --> 00:25:04,933
org slash summit to learn more
and discover how digital finance

429
00:25:04,933 --> 00:25:07,144
can empower everyone, everywhere.

430
00:25:11,225 --> 00:25:15,255
Ayesha: Thanks for listening to Elijah
Sample, enjoy the rest of the episode.

431
00:25:15,255 --> 00:25:17,849
So

432
00:25:17,849 --> 00:25:25,964
Sabine: you need a consensus algorithm
to get everything global in sync.

433
00:25:25,995 --> 00:25:27,514
You also have a global team.

434
00:25:27,635 --> 00:25:29,015
How do you get that in sync?

435
00:25:29,364 --> 00:25:34,395
And how far are you on your journey up
the Everest together with that team?

436
00:25:34,919 --> 00:25:37,550
Joran: In a way, it always feels like
we're at base camp, which is a nice

437
00:25:37,550 --> 00:25:42,249
place to be, you know, actually, one of
the team has been to Everest base camp.

438
00:25:42,509 --> 00:25:42,830
Yeah.

439
00:25:43,139 --> 00:25:45,059
So that's, that's Gia.

440
00:25:45,979 --> 00:25:48,600
She's, she's been there and
done Kilimanjaro as well.

441
00:25:48,649 --> 00:25:52,929
Like, so kind of, you know, this is the
thing is like how you design your team.

442
00:25:53,260 --> 00:25:55,639
Also impacts what you produce together.

443
00:25:55,679 --> 00:26:00,200
So from the beginning, we've kind of
thought, well, Tiger Beetle came out of

444
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,210
this open source project that was meant
for the whole world, and it is meant for

445
00:26:04,210 --> 00:26:08,310
the whole world, Mojaloop, you know, and
Interledger as well, that goes with it.

446
00:26:08,350 --> 00:26:13,030
And, and so we were like, well, Tiger
Beetle is open source like these

447
00:26:13,030 --> 00:26:17,430
projects and it's meant for everyone
because you want to power new things.

448
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,809
So the team to build Tiger Beetle is also.

449
00:26:21,330 --> 00:26:23,879
Global and distributed like the database.

450
00:26:23,949 --> 00:26:27,590
So that's our focus
that we, we're all over.

451
00:26:27,610 --> 00:26:33,249
So we half the team are, are in the
U S or in Brazil, but on Eastern time

452
00:26:33,619 --> 00:26:37,429
and the other half are on London time
in Europe, only two of us actually in

453
00:26:37,429 --> 00:26:42,679
Cape town, one eighth of the team here
and the rest are all over, but then

454
00:26:42,679 --> 00:26:47,854
we also learn more, you know, we, get
diversity of thought and, and craft.

455
00:26:48,115 --> 00:26:51,175
And, and I mean, we can even just
talk to people because a lot of

456
00:26:51,175 --> 00:26:54,965
the people that we talk to are, you
know, on, on certain time zones.

457
00:26:54,975 --> 00:26:56,695
So you're in the same time zone.

458
00:26:57,315 --> 00:27:00,094
Lawil: It's not a question concerning
your team, but mostly it's more

459
00:27:00,094 --> 00:27:02,334
of a future focused question.

460
00:27:03,045 --> 00:27:08,174
How do you believe that Tiger Beetle has
been contributing to shaping the ecosystem

461
00:27:08,174 --> 00:27:10,065
sort of FinTech industry and beyond?

462
00:27:10,654 --> 00:27:14,484
And do you have a long term vision on
how it will shape the current ecosystem?

463
00:27:15,030 --> 00:27:18,750
Joran: I think this was the thing,
you know, that, that we felt

464
00:27:18,949 --> 00:27:22,709
is everyone is building their
financial transactions database.

465
00:27:22,709 --> 00:27:26,890
So this goes back also to Sabine's
question, like we're actually

466
00:27:26,900 --> 00:27:28,299
always building a database.

467
00:27:28,299 --> 00:27:30,629
It's just a question of,
do we realize that or not?

468
00:27:30,709 --> 00:27:32,439
Are we doing it intentionally or not?

469
00:27:32,970 --> 00:27:36,695
And coming to your question level
of, You know how this contributes

470
00:27:36,705 --> 00:27:41,415
and will contribute, but I think
this is what we saw was that the

471
00:27:41,415 --> 00:27:44,845
central bank switch was building
a financial transactions database.

472
00:27:44,865 --> 00:27:48,695
It had to do all the all the work around
the general purpose database that the

473
00:27:48,695 --> 00:27:50,375
general purpose database didn't do.

474
00:27:50,985 --> 00:27:52,344
Now you do it around that.

475
00:27:52,710 --> 00:27:57,730
But that system is a database, but
it's not built to database standards.

476
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,640
And so we thought, well,
let's do this explicitly.

477
00:28:01,660 --> 00:28:07,160
Let's make a financial transactions
database, but let's share this cost.

478
00:28:07,460 --> 00:28:08,999
Um, so we'll do it.

479
00:28:09,830 --> 00:28:11,399
Uh, we'll make it open source.

480
00:28:12,035 --> 00:28:12,955
And it's for the world.

481
00:28:12,975 --> 00:28:13,905
Everyone can use it.

482
00:28:14,425 --> 00:28:18,455
And now this problem, this whole
in the world of every single

483
00:28:18,455 --> 00:28:22,645
business has to reinvent its, its
financial transactions database.

484
00:28:22,645 --> 00:28:26,005
And, and many people have done
this and I've chatted to people.

485
00:28:26,005 --> 00:28:28,705
They thought, yeah, we were thinking
we're going to go and build tiger belong.

486
00:28:28,705 --> 00:28:29,745
And we saw, Hey, you built it.

487
00:28:29,745 --> 00:28:30,175
Thank you.

488
00:28:30,635 --> 00:28:34,345
So now like, What happens is
it's not only Mojaloop, not only

489
00:28:34,345 --> 00:28:39,515
Interledger, but it's many projects
that are starting to build on Tiger

490
00:28:39,565 --> 00:28:41,245
Beetle as critical infrastructure.

491
00:28:41,685 --> 00:28:45,085
And it's open source, which is
the beauty of those, you know,

492
00:28:45,085 --> 00:28:46,915
post Christmas, SQL, SQLite.

493
00:28:46,915 --> 00:28:50,825
They're the top three because they're open
source and they have stayed open source.

494
00:28:51,045 --> 00:28:56,285
And so going forward, I think the
way we see it is that Tiger Beetle

495
00:28:56,285 --> 00:29:00,075
is, it's about making a technical
contribution, giving people a.

496
00:29:00,345 --> 00:29:03,775
Financial transactions database
designed for mission critical safety

497
00:29:03,775 --> 00:29:08,215
performance, resetting performance,
you know, going for 1000 X more

498
00:29:08,215 --> 00:29:10,865
performance, which we also designed for.

499
00:29:10,865 --> 00:29:14,215
There's a whole story there,
but all of this is about looking

500
00:29:14,215 --> 00:29:15,615
to the next 30 years or so.

501
00:29:15,615 --> 00:29:19,105
So we've received 30 years of open source.

502
00:29:19,335 --> 00:29:20,365
Each generation.

503
00:29:20,585 --> 00:29:25,270
It's up to us to do something, you know,
And I think at some point, like we've,

504
00:29:25,300 --> 00:29:29,420
we've had this from Michael stonebreaker,
people who did amazing things with

505
00:29:29,420 --> 00:29:31,390
Postgres 30 years of open source.

506
00:29:31,890 --> 00:29:36,310
And at some point, you know, each
generation, I think can take it on that.

507
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,610
We're like, well, let's do something
for the next 30 years in turn.

508
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,520
And that's the beauty of open source.

509
00:29:43,045 --> 00:29:45,955
Lawil: What I really loved at the
beginning of our conversation is that you

510
00:29:46,315 --> 00:29:50,355
were comparing what is the engineering
profession to architecture, architects,

511
00:29:50,355 --> 00:29:54,685
actually, because they are the shapers
of society because of the influence

512
00:29:54,685 --> 00:29:56,325
they have with the city mapping.

513
00:29:56,765 --> 00:29:59,855
So do you believe that a system such as
what you're building right now, it being

514
00:29:59,855 --> 00:30:04,135
open source, could follow that pathway
as well, or could have that influence?

515
00:30:04,155 --> 00:30:06,555
I know it's a lot to say
over your own products,

516
00:30:06,555 --> 00:30:09,244
but

517
00:30:09,245 --> 00:30:10,015
Lawil: I'm just curious.

518
00:30:11,845 --> 00:30:12,425
Joran: Thank you for saying that.

519
00:30:12,745 --> 00:30:14,165
No, I agree with you.

520
00:30:14,215 --> 00:30:18,085
Um, that's one thing I learned from
my dad as well is that you do with

521
00:30:18,095 --> 00:30:23,005
architecture, you have a wonderful
opportunity and responsibility and things

522
00:30:23,005 --> 00:30:25,355
like, you know, how do we design schools?

523
00:30:26,055 --> 00:30:29,595
There was this thing, you know, where
sometimes people would, would separate

524
00:30:29,625 --> 00:30:35,775
communities so the elderly lived isolated,
which is a terrible thing and far nicer

525
00:30:35,775 --> 00:30:39,795
things that my dad worked on were how can
we integrate so that the young can learn

526
00:30:39,795 --> 00:30:44,505
from the wisdom of the old and the, the
elderly can be energized by the energy of

527
00:30:44,535 --> 00:30:49,125
the youth and have joy and 'cause that's
real community when it's integrated.

528
00:30:49,490 --> 00:30:51,360
So I don't know if we're tiger beetle.

529
00:30:51,390 --> 00:30:56,770
Um, but I think the one thing that
we do try is we try to give people

530
00:30:56,770 --> 00:30:59,140
the financial transactions primitive.

531
00:30:59,220 --> 00:31:01,550
So rich set of ways of doing debit credit.

532
00:31:02,260 --> 00:31:03,570
It's not just a debit credit.

533
00:31:03,570 --> 00:31:04,400
It's debit credit.

534
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:05,050
And maybe.

535
00:31:05,460 --> 00:31:10,600
You, you do it now pending and then later
on you, you post it as confirmed because

536
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,270
you're interacting with other systems.

537
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,950
So it's like debit credit at the
intersection of distributed systems.

538
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:20,280
So we, we try to give people
these primitives to make what

539
00:31:20,290 --> 00:31:22,400
was previously very hard.

540
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,629
Even impossible to do.

541
00:31:24,630 --> 00:31:29,160
We try to make it possible out of
the box, but here's the thing is

542
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,290
that we try also to not do things.

543
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,470
And this is another architectural
principle from Christopher Alexander.

544
00:31:35,470 --> 00:31:37,450
It's like you almost want to wait.

545
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,540
If you're designing like
university campus, you don't

546
00:31:40,550 --> 00:31:41,940
want to lay the brick paths.

547
00:31:42,855 --> 00:31:46,095
Wait, let the students in,
let them walk everywhere.

548
00:31:46,395 --> 00:31:49,045
And then afterwards at night you
go in and look and you see now

549
00:31:49,045 --> 00:31:51,575
where, where is the grass worn?

550
00:31:51,615 --> 00:31:53,865
Because that's probably where
we should put the path and

551
00:31:53,865 --> 00:31:55,185
it's not where we expected.

552
00:31:55,665 --> 00:31:59,475
So Tiger Beetle, we try
to minimize surface area.

553
00:31:59,475 --> 00:32:03,970
So we, we, We try to make impossible
things possible, hard things easy,

554
00:32:04,890 --> 00:32:07,990
but there's always a temptation
that you try to do too much.

555
00:32:08,410 --> 00:32:13,660
You try to not only provide primitive
primitives, but you try to provide whole

556
00:32:13,690 --> 00:32:19,205
features, and so we try not to do that and
we try to say, look, We'll give people the

557
00:32:19,215 --> 00:32:23,925
double entry accounting primitives, but
not the policy, not the accounting policy

558
00:32:23,965 --> 00:32:26,895
that that should stay with the coder.

559
00:32:26,935 --> 00:32:29,375
We let them make the policy decisions.

560
00:32:29,865 --> 00:32:33,865
We'll provide the safe primitives
to record those decisions of debit

561
00:32:33,865 --> 00:32:38,155
credit, you know, so if you book a
ride, maybe there's the transaction

562
00:32:38,155 --> 00:32:41,415
with the driver, there's the route
transaction, there's the tip transaction,

563
00:32:41,415 --> 00:32:42,975
there's partnership transactions.

564
00:32:43,620 --> 00:32:46,430
But the policies around
that, we don't take that on.

565
00:32:46,510 --> 00:32:49,520
So we separate accounting policy
from accounting primitives.

566
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,960
And the reason is that policy
changes across jurisdictions.

567
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,930
It changes across business to
business or entity to entity,

568
00:32:57,930 --> 00:32:59,120
foundation to foundation.

569
00:32:59,410 --> 00:33:00,910
It even changes from.

570
00:33:01,140 --> 00:33:04,850
Teams, you know, different products
have different policies that they need.

571
00:33:05,370 --> 00:33:08,990
And I think this is key that I
learned, but previously like the

572
00:33:08,990 --> 00:33:13,130
core banking systems, they tend
to do not only the debit credit

573
00:33:13,230 --> 00:33:14,800
primitives, but also the policy.

574
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:19,770
So they mix it all together and over
time it becomes more and more inflexible.

575
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,060
because now the paths are in the grass
where the students no longer walk.

576
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,800
And so I don't know if this is a
good enough answer to what is a great

577
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,380
question, but this is just what we try.

578
00:33:31,430 --> 00:33:35,070
You know, like this is what we're
responsible for and actively

579
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:36,330
look, we don't want this.

580
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,080
This is, this is for, for
the world to figure out.

581
00:33:39,210 --> 00:33:40,830
Lawil: No, I think it's a great answer.

582
00:33:40,980 --> 00:33:44,020
The reason why I asked the question
was basically because in the end

583
00:33:44,020 --> 00:33:46,760
you're building something that
could potentially be extremely

584
00:33:46,780 --> 00:33:52,190
influential, but also there's a layer
of direction, but also power into it.

585
00:33:52,780 --> 00:33:55,870
If you do it on purpose or not on purpose,
especially if it's open source and

586
00:33:55,870 --> 00:33:57,440
people are using it, which is incredible.

587
00:33:58,230 --> 00:34:01,359
And I love the entire connection
about the responsibility as well.

588
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:02,230
Joran: Yes.

589
00:34:02,310 --> 00:34:03,300
No, thank you level.

590
00:34:03,340 --> 00:34:05,130
And maybe I can just add as well.

591
00:34:05,130 --> 00:34:06,100
I love the question.

592
00:34:06,170 --> 00:34:12,570
So this is why open source is so,
so important because I saw there

593
00:34:12,570 --> 00:34:16,280
were some technical projects that
I really, really loved like ZFS

594
00:34:17,470 --> 00:34:21,470
and unfortunately around just as it
happened with CFS as a file system.

595
00:34:22,345 --> 00:34:25,315
In a way, it had very similar
properties to Tiger Beetle, that it

596
00:34:25,585 --> 00:34:29,595
can survive disks that are failing
and it was a big inspiration.

597
00:34:30,335 --> 00:34:33,965
But just because of the history of
how things worked and the licensing

598
00:34:33,965 --> 00:34:35,835
around ZFS was never clear.

599
00:34:36,505 --> 00:34:41,755
And so it was pretty much open, but
because the licensing wasn't clear,

600
00:34:41,835 --> 00:34:46,875
it never got used, but therefore it
never really served because it was the

601
00:34:46,875 --> 00:34:49,225
world's most incredible file system.

602
00:34:49,540 --> 00:34:52,910
People are starting to use
it, but for years we lost out.

603
00:34:53,350 --> 00:34:56,660
And so I kind of with Tiger
Beetle, I think, and if you look

604
00:34:56,660 --> 00:35:00,580
to, you know, Postgres, MySQL,
SQLite, these technologies are

605
00:35:00,740 --> 00:35:05,320
infrastructure and they're, they're
too valuable not to be open source.

606
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:12,350
And so I think some people, Think
that open source and being sustainable

607
00:35:12,570 --> 00:35:16,780
are at odds that you need to force
people or you need to try to be

608
00:35:16,780 --> 00:35:18,660
a monopoly and that's business.

609
00:35:18,660 --> 00:35:21,990
And I actually think that is not
business business again, comes back to

610
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:27,870
trust and open sources is the best way
to build trust that, you know, this is

611
00:35:27,870 --> 00:35:29,810
for everybody and it's not locked up.

612
00:35:30,100 --> 00:35:34,070
So that's why I'm intentional when
people contribute code to Target

613
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,300
Beetle, there is no CLA agreement.

614
00:35:37,195 --> 00:35:42,045
So that it stays open source, we
can't relicense those contributions,

615
00:35:42,045 --> 00:35:47,465
but it's intentional because if you
mess up the license, it will die.

616
00:35:47,515 --> 00:35:48,215
No one will use it.

617
00:35:48,395 --> 00:35:53,135
And so that's, that's kind of the thing
that always saddens me when I see projects

618
00:35:53,135 --> 00:35:58,055
that were once flourishing open source,
they changed the license because they

619
00:35:58,055 --> 00:36:03,605
don't really understand the business, I
think, and they don't see that business.

620
00:36:03,980 --> 00:36:08,130
is a healthy ecosystem, there is
competition, there's all these things

621
00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:12,670
and they and in so doing, they actually
destroy the business, the the value

622
00:36:12,670 --> 00:36:16,610
that could have been there, like
intelleger is open source module loop.

623
00:36:17,060 --> 00:36:19,960
The only way they can use tiger
beetle is that it is open source.

624
00:36:20,270 --> 00:36:28,380
And we don't we don't want our Transaction
systems to be beholden to one company

625
00:36:28,380 --> 00:36:33,530
or cloud provider or be proprietary,
the core infrastructure must be open.

626
00:36:33,780 --> 00:36:36,750
And actually, I think a lot
of core infrastructure for the

627
00:36:36,750 --> 00:36:38,850
last 30 years hasn't been open.

628
00:36:38,990 --> 00:36:40,830
So I'm kind of curious
to see what happens.

629
00:36:41,090 --> 00:36:46,160
If it is, you could either buy this or you
could use the open source stuff and build

630
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:51,460
it, but now what if we can give people
this engine, this will be exciting to see.

631
00:36:52,950 --> 00:36:56,010
Sabine: Well, as you know, at the
foundation, everything is open source too.

632
00:36:56,050 --> 00:36:58,820
We believe that this is the
only way that other people can

633
00:36:58,820 --> 00:37:00,600
learn from what we're building.

634
00:37:00,885 --> 00:37:06,305
I feel like that's also your mantra
that you live by, but I also feel like

635
00:37:06,305 --> 00:37:09,625
there was a performance story that
you've been very eager to tell us.

636
00:37:09,635 --> 00:37:11,815
So tell us about Tiger Beetle performance.

637
00:37:13,475 --> 00:37:16,695
Joran: So this is what I learned,
you know, again, with IntelliJ,

638
00:37:16,735 --> 00:37:20,305
Coil, Mojaloop is that the world
is becoming more transactional.

639
00:37:20,835 --> 00:37:24,285
And it's kind of lately I've been
thinking of this as like a TV.

640
00:37:24,345 --> 00:37:29,045
So the last few decades, if you look
at the dimensions, like let's get our

641
00:37:29,045 --> 00:37:33,615
ruler out and measure the dimensions
of the TV screen, it hasn't changed

642
00:37:33,695 --> 00:37:38,575
too much cinema screens, like the
room size, maybe it's changed a

643
00:37:38,585 --> 00:37:42,515
little bit, but the, the dimensions
of the screen haven't really changed.

644
00:37:43,530 --> 00:37:46,440
And what's the thing
that's really changed?

645
00:37:46,450 --> 00:37:51,000
It's the pixels of our computer
screens have gotten so much smaller.

646
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,320
They're now they're
invisible to the human eye.

647
00:37:53,510 --> 00:37:57,370
Um, I remember when they were, the
pixels were green and black and big,

648
00:37:57,380 --> 00:38:02,820
you know, and you could, you could
see a pixel and, and today, like with

649
00:38:02,850 --> 00:38:05,040
transactions, you can see transactions.

650
00:38:05,270 --> 00:38:08,010
You know, you can't do a
transaction if it's less than

651
00:38:08,060 --> 00:38:10,180
5, otherwise you really see it.

652
00:38:10,210 --> 00:38:11,920
You also feel it with the fees.

653
00:38:12,660 --> 00:38:17,280
But what I love with interledger is that
it's asking the question of, you know,

654
00:38:17,620 --> 00:38:19,830
the world is becoming more transactional.

655
00:38:19,830 --> 00:38:23,650
The dimensions of like GDP or
whatever is maybe staying more or

656
00:38:23,650 --> 00:38:25,430
less the same, gradually increasing.

657
00:38:25,865 --> 00:38:29,865
But the resolution of transactions
is, is greatly increasing.

658
00:38:29,865 --> 00:38:31,575
So pixels are becoming smaller.

659
00:38:31,915 --> 00:38:36,015
We're moving to a world of like 4k
color with what you can do and create

660
00:38:36,105 --> 00:38:39,985
on top of these payment systems because
the resolution is so much better.

661
00:38:40,385 --> 00:38:45,885
Like I think next year already, maybe
people are going to pinch themselves

662
00:38:45,985 --> 00:38:50,645
and ask each other, can you believe that
we used to wait a day for a payment?

663
00:38:51,315 --> 00:38:54,375
To go, you know, within
a country or a day.

664
00:38:54,405 --> 00:38:55,505
Can you believe that?

665
00:38:55,505 --> 00:38:56,685
Can you remember that time?

666
00:38:57,285 --> 00:38:59,015
You know, when we used to buy albums?

667
00:39:00,255 --> 00:39:02,985
Or even, can you remember that
time when you used to buy songs?

668
00:39:03,265 --> 00:39:06,155
Cause you know, music has become
more transactional, high resolution.

669
00:39:06,165 --> 00:39:08,265
Like now you don't even
think of buying a song.

670
00:39:08,275 --> 00:39:10,475
You just stream it's seconds.

671
00:39:10,875 --> 00:39:14,025
And so streaming is coming
to payments very much.

672
00:39:14,025 --> 00:39:17,145
So, but what that means is
now you need more powerful

673
00:39:17,145 --> 00:39:19,100
TVs to drive 4k color display.

674
00:39:19,100 --> 00:39:21,615
So you need performance tiger beetle.

675
00:39:21,615 --> 00:39:24,615
And so like the world, the
pixels are becoming a thousand

676
00:39:24,625 --> 00:39:26,675
times smaller, literally like.

677
00:39:26,975 --> 00:39:32,015
In the world of energy, one of the first
Tigerbill users is an energy utility.

678
00:39:32,295 --> 00:39:36,365
They realized that we're moving
to clean energy away from coal.

679
00:39:36,615 --> 00:39:41,925
If you're using coal, you use maybe bill
your customers as an energy utility.

680
00:39:42,005 --> 00:39:43,345
You build them once a month.

681
00:39:43,805 --> 00:39:46,865
So if you've got a million
customers, you've got a million

682
00:39:46,865 --> 00:39:48,115
transactions once a month.

683
00:39:48,985 --> 00:39:52,865
If you move to clean energy and solar,
the price of energy is now following

684
00:39:52,875 --> 00:39:55,835
the sun, which is changing all the time.

685
00:39:55,945 --> 00:39:59,915
You know, it rises and sets day and
night, but it's even changing with,

686
00:39:59,985 --> 00:40:04,855
you know, cloud conditions, weather
conditions, clear skies, the side,

687
00:40:05,475 --> 00:40:08,815
even though it's winter, but the price
of energy is changing all the time.

688
00:40:08,815 --> 00:40:13,172
So this energy provider, what they
realize is like, wow, instead of

689
00:40:13,172 --> 00:40:17,529
pricing clean energy once a month,
let's price it every 30 minutes.

690
00:40:17,930 --> 00:40:23,300
Because that way we can give people
more efficient energy, like now,

691
00:40:23,310 --> 00:40:26,960
why should you overpay for your
energy just because your provider

692
00:40:27,050 --> 00:40:29,155
isn't being transactional with you?

693
00:40:29,155 --> 00:40:33,230
Like you should be able to pay for
energy every 30 minutes and that,

694
00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:37,070
you know, going from once a month to
every 30 is literally a thousand four

695
00:40:37,070 --> 00:40:39,240
hundred and forty X increase in volume.

696
00:40:39,615 --> 00:40:46,125
So that energy company is making their
sector 1, 440 X more transactional.

697
00:40:46,155 --> 00:40:49,605
The pixels are smaller and more frequent.

698
00:40:50,205 --> 00:40:53,915
And so suddenly you say, you're
saying to infrastructure, I

699
00:40:53,925 --> 00:40:55,075
need you to drive the car.

700
00:40:55,760 --> 00:41:00,010
Please a thousand times faster
and the driver is like, no,

701
00:41:00,010 --> 00:41:01,690
this car is not spec for that.

702
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,320
And so we, we designed tiger beetle.

703
00:41:04,350 --> 00:41:09,440
We just redesigned the whole thing before
with general purpose SQL, you would send

704
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,340
a lot of SQL queries back and forth.

705
00:41:12,275 --> 00:41:15,125
over the network, half
a millisecond each trip.

706
00:41:15,725 --> 00:41:19,395
And that would mean that you've
got this fundamental limit because

707
00:41:19,395 --> 00:41:24,455
of Rolox, you can do a hundred,
maybe a thousand transactions

708
00:41:24,455 --> 00:41:26,725
a second business transactions.

709
00:41:27,815 --> 00:41:29,535
Tiger beetle, we realized
that's a problem.

710
00:41:29,535 --> 00:41:33,235
You know, it's like putting one
person in the plane, you know, from

711
00:41:33,305 --> 00:41:37,765
Amsterdam to Newark, and then the
plane goes back to get the next person.

712
00:41:38,475 --> 00:41:39,765
But it's even worse than that.

713
00:41:39,775 --> 00:41:42,345
It's like, let the plan go
back and forth 10 times.

714
00:41:42,345 --> 00:41:46,475
And now you've moved one person
that that is a financial transaction

715
00:41:46,475 --> 00:41:47,655
of a general purpose database.

716
00:41:47,685 --> 00:41:50,175
It's let the plan go
back and forth 10 times.

717
00:41:50,735 --> 00:41:54,295
And on the 10th trip, let the
person finally commit and go across.

718
00:41:55,415 --> 00:41:57,695
And we were like, this doesn't make sense.

719
00:41:57,795 --> 00:42:02,165
Like, because for the CPU, it's
actually worse than that for the CPU.

720
00:42:02,165 --> 00:42:05,605
It's like, let's go to Mars and
back 10 times because CPUs are

721
00:42:05,605 --> 00:42:07,375
so fast and networks are so slow.

722
00:42:07,810 --> 00:42:10,670
The speed of light and fiber is a
constant, never going to change.

723
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:15,330
So we were like, let's, let's
put a hundred people in the

724
00:42:15,330 --> 00:42:17,800
plane and send them in one trip.

725
00:42:18,150 --> 00:42:20,980
And then you've done a hundred
debit credit transactions because

726
00:42:21,020 --> 00:42:22,560
the seats speak debit credit.

727
00:42:23,180 --> 00:42:24,840
It's not like some other language.

728
00:42:24,910 --> 00:42:26,910
And then we were like, okay,
well, let's not stop here.

729
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:28,820
Let's put 8, 000 people in the plan.

730
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:29,910
That's going to be cool.

731
00:42:30,230 --> 00:42:32,100
And we'll do one plane trip, 8, 000.

732
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,080
That is the key for Tiger
Beatles performances.

733
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:39,890
We changed the protocol, higher
level primitives, and we pack 8,

734
00:42:39,940 --> 00:42:42,060
000 of them in one network request.

735
00:42:42,070 --> 00:42:44,170
So one, one plane trip is 8, 000.

736
00:42:44,690 --> 00:42:47,680
And now you can have planes
coming from all over the world

737
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,270
into Schiphol and to Newark.

738
00:42:49,890 --> 00:42:50,410
And.

739
00:42:50,885 --> 00:42:53,595
Now the airport is also better
for the airport because it's not

740
00:42:53,595 --> 00:42:57,715
just one person each 10 for the
trip, you know, or each 10 trips.

741
00:42:57,725 --> 00:42:59,855
So now everything gets better.

742
00:42:59,925 --> 00:43:02,635
And so this was the, it's very simple.

743
00:43:02,785 --> 00:43:05,065
We almost, we didn't
really do anything special.

744
00:43:05,075 --> 00:43:07,645
You know, it was just
trying to solve the problem.

745
00:43:07,715 --> 00:43:07,955
So

746
00:43:08,985 --> 00:43:10,215
Lawil: it's actually a good example.

747
00:43:10,445 --> 00:43:12,515
I do have a question because
you mentioned, for example,

748
00:43:12,545 --> 00:43:14,065
the transaction costs as well.

749
00:43:14,545 --> 00:43:17,335
What does digital financial
inclusion mean to you?

750
00:43:17,385 --> 00:43:18,715
Cause it's something that's very close.

751
00:43:18,730 --> 00:43:21,590
To the hearts of the people who work, or
at least for the intelligent people who

752
00:43:21,630 --> 00:43:23,120
work for the intellectual foundation.

753
00:43:23,630 --> 00:43:26,970
And if you think about it, if you think
about the transition costs, but also the

754
00:43:26,970 --> 00:43:29,730
latency, like what does it mean to you?

755
00:43:29,890 --> 00:43:34,850
Joran: It's a question we ask as a team,
we say, who will never ever know about

756
00:43:34,890 --> 00:43:41,990
tiger beetle, and it'll be like the people
who have like, for them, it's everything.

757
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:47,400
It's, it's their week's wages and
they've sent it back on and that

758
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,120
that money never gets locked up.

759
00:43:49,655 --> 00:43:55,255
For manual reconciliation that they don't
have to spend like 50 percent of it on

760
00:43:55,265 --> 00:44:00,095
fees Those will be the people that will
never know about Tiger Beetle because

761
00:44:00,345 --> 00:44:04,755
hopefully they they won't they will never
have that experience anymore So for us,

762
00:44:04,755 --> 00:44:09,325
it's very very important like who will
never know about this and let's just

763
00:44:09,325 --> 00:44:13,935
do our job right That the system never
breaks, never locks up people's money.

764
00:44:14,465 --> 00:44:17,335
And we're kind of lucky as a
team because we have a very

765
00:44:17,335 --> 00:44:19,075
narrow product surface area.

766
00:44:19,075 --> 00:44:24,615
What, what I mean is we, the reason we
exist as a group of people to the whole

767
00:44:24,615 --> 00:44:28,835
that we have to fill is a very clearly
defined, and we've just gone deep.

768
00:44:29,670 --> 00:44:34,360
And we just haven't stopped drilling and
things like this question of financial

769
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:38,270
inclusion and who is, is never going to
know about Tiger Beetle because things

770
00:44:38,270 --> 00:44:42,150
just work because the infrastructure can
power it and it's cheap and efficient.

771
00:44:42,490 --> 00:44:43,610
We take it for granted.

772
00:44:43,610 --> 00:44:44,670
It's like electricity.

773
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:49,710
There was a time when electricity
was so expensive that one person

774
00:44:49,710 --> 00:44:50,840
in America could afford it.

775
00:44:51,700 --> 00:44:56,140
Just one, there was only one
person, you know, and, and now it's

776
00:44:56,140 --> 00:44:59,640
like electricity, like switching
lights on is cheaper than candles.

777
00:45:00,270 --> 00:45:05,130
But there was a time when it was the
other way around, and so it would be nice

778
00:45:05,150 --> 00:45:08,430
that, you know, we make these things so
cheap that people take it for granted.

779
00:45:08,980 --> 00:45:13,250
But when you do that, a whole lot of
other things become possible, so, so

780
00:45:13,250 --> 00:45:17,540
this is kind of how, just to let you
in on how we think about it, but it's

781
00:45:17,540 --> 00:45:21,980
what, it's why we really care, because
there's so many little things that can

782
00:45:21,980 --> 00:45:27,900
go wrong with computers, like the quartz
crystals that track time in a computer.

783
00:45:28,570 --> 00:45:34,130
Can drift as the machines heat up in a
data center, the clock can tick faster,

784
00:45:34,380 --> 00:45:38,150
you know, according to the heat slightly.

785
00:45:38,150 --> 00:45:41,660
And so, so some machines
start to go faster.

786
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,580
This doesn't impact the consensus
or anything, you know, the

787
00:45:45,610 --> 00:45:46,920
correctness of the system.

788
00:45:47,090 --> 00:45:53,240
But if you zoom out and think of
who's actually using this in Asia,

789
00:45:53,250 --> 00:45:59,620
in Africa, in South America, in North
America, Europe, who's using this?

790
00:46:00,155 --> 00:46:06,035
There it's very important that money moves
between systems or doesn't move, but a lot

791
00:46:06,035 --> 00:46:11,020
of that has got to do with Time because
you you will say to another partner on

792
00:46:11,020 --> 00:46:15,590
the network like this money should move
and Within a certain amount of time it

793
00:46:15,810 --> 00:46:21,250
should move back if something went wrong
So if you get those times wrong It can

794
00:46:21,260 --> 00:46:25,800
happen that like a clock jumps a year
into the future and so someone's money

795
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,410
is locked up for a year I know that's
really really bad because it might be

796
00:46:29,410 --> 00:46:33,450
something that You know, that, that, that
for them is going to change everything.

797
00:46:33,570 --> 00:46:39,570
So, so we, we go really deep into like
the hardware and the software and that's

798
00:46:39,570 --> 00:46:43,630
why we designed a whole database because
you kind of have to, all these things

799
00:46:43,630 --> 00:46:46,450
are co designed to specialize for.

800
00:46:46,885 --> 00:46:50,905
For who's the end user and how do we
optimize their total cost of ownership?

801
00:46:50,945 --> 00:46:55,415
Not, not how quickly can we make a
database once we have shipped it.

802
00:46:55,995 --> 00:47:01,925
Let's rather like ship it a month later
because we want to optimize for 10 years,

803
00:47:01,965 --> 00:47:03,625
20 years of, of the people using it.

804
00:47:04,275 --> 00:47:07,275
Sabine: So as you know, our
Intelligent Summit is coming up and

805
00:47:07,275 --> 00:47:10,625
that's also all under the umbrella
of digital financial inclusion.

806
00:47:10,665 --> 00:47:12,795
And a lot of the end users will be there.

807
00:47:12,795 --> 00:47:14,795
So what are you most excited about?

808
00:47:15,005 --> 00:47:17,105
Because I know you're going to be
there because it's in Cape Town.

809
00:47:17,155 --> 00:47:18,515
So it's around the corner for you.

810
00:47:18,695 --> 00:47:21,635
Joran: Yeah, I'm going to be there and
the whole team are going to be there.

811
00:47:21,675 --> 00:47:24,205
Like they all coming out
as well for the summit.

812
00:47:24,205 --> 00:47:25,285
So really excited.

813
00:47:25,745 --> 00:47:29,215
We're a small beetle, but
there's a few beetles and they,

814
00:47:29,225 --> 00:47:30,425
they all come into Cape Town.

815
00:47:30,935 --> 00:47:35,150
Uh, and yeah, We're really excited
to meet everyone because that's

816
00:47:35,150 --> 00:47:36,230
kind of what it's all about.

817
00:47:36,290 --> 00:47:39,230
So we say like, do things in
the most direct way possible.

818
00:47:39,550 --> 00:47:44,080
And it's great to just get everybody
right up with the community, like

819
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,920
who's using this and, and also
learn and understand, you know

820
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,360
what, because that's why it exists.

821
00:47:50,810 --> 00:47:52,710
So how can we improve?

822
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:53,330
Yeah.

823
00:47:53,330 --> 00:47:55,530
And it's kind of, I guess we
all encourage one another.

824
00:47:55,560 --> 00:48:00,490
It's the, these things are happening, you
know, it is happening and it is moving.

825
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:05,900
It's not only interledger or tiger beetle,
but it's happening all around the world.

826
00:48:05,970 --> 00:48:10,520
So it's quite exciting to see it's a real
trend, the real, real time trend, you

827
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,010
know, and it's, it's spreading everywhere.

828
00:48:12,350 --> 00:48:14,360
Which enables financial
inclusion, you know,

829
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,890
Lawil: and I've heard that you're
also sponsoring the hackathon.

830
00:48:18,500 --> 00:48:18,780
Joran: Yes.

831
00:48:19,150 --> 00:48:19,920
Yeah, we are.

832
00:48:20,070 --> 00:48:26,180
I mean, intelleges are big brothers or
and big sister actually my I've got three

833
00:48:26,220 --> 00:48:30,260
older siblings and they're my sisters,
you know, they and they So i'm the little

834
00:48:30,270 --> 00:48:35,840
brother and uh, but we intelleges that
for us too, I guess and so Intelleges

835
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:40,220
doing this this hackathon and we're just
like You Coming in and if people use

836
00:48:40,220 --> 00:48:44,920
Tiger Beetle, then most creative use of
Tiger Beetle, or the most performant,

837
00:48:45,110 --> 00:48:46,850
then, then there will be prizes.

838
00:48:46,950 --> 00:48:50,040
So thank you for, for having
us, that we can be there.

839
00:48:50,060 --> 00:48:53,810
Cause it's pretty awesome to, this
is what makes things worthwhile is.

840
00:48:53,945 --> 00:48:55,715
Is, is how it's used.

841
00:48:55,805 --> 00:48:58,505
So there's nothing like, like a
hackathon, you know, for people

842
00:48:58,505 --> 00:48:59,735
to actually hack with the stuff.

843
00:49:00,285 --> 00:49:00,775
Lawil: I agree.

844
00:49:01,275 --> 00:49:05,845
So we have now one question left and it's
actually a question we ask all of our

845
00:49:05,845 --> 00:49:08,735
guests and it's based on, what is it?

846
00:49:08,805 --> 00:49:14,065
Um, kind of like predicting the future
of, uh, finance or digital finance.

847
00:49:14,645 --> 00:49:18,345
And we ask our guests to give us their
thoughts on what they believe to.

848
00:49:18,795 --> 00:49:20,575
30 years, maybe 50 years will be.

849
00:49:21,045 --> 00:49:24,615
You don't have to reference or you
don't have to think about flying cars

850
00:49:24,755 --> 00:49:26,415
or what is it back to the future.

851
00:49:27,575 --> 00:49:31,885
Maybe we could, but if you think about
the future of the world and the future of

852
00:49:31,895 --> 00:49:33,595
finance, what direction or what do you?

853
00:49:34,295 --> 00:49:35,285
What would you like to envision?

854
00:49:35,285 --> 00:49:36,524
Joran: Hmm.

855
00:49:36,605 --> 00:49:37,185
Well, thank you.

856
00:49:37,595 --> 00:49:40,165
How did you know this is what
I'm speaking about at the summit?

857
00:49:40,475 --> 00:49:41,615
I didn't really.

858
00:49:42,255 --> 00:49:42,415
Okay.

859
00:49:44,315 --> 00:49:46,325
My talk is how do we predict the future?

860
00:49:46,355 --> 00:49:46,755
Literally.

861
00:49:47,325 --> 00:49:48,655
And I haven't told anyone this.

862
00:49:48,655 --> 00:49:51,305
So you, I guess, let me
give us a teaser trailer.

863
00:49:51,365 --> 00:49:58,345
So, uh, Nicholas, I think Nassim
Taleb, he said prediction, not

864
00:49:58,475 --> 00:50:01,725
narration is the test of understanding.

865
00:50:02,425 --> 00:50:04,335
So can you predict something?

866
00:50:04,425 --> 00:50:08,875
And being able to predict is a better
test of understanding than narration.

867
00:50:08,915 --> 00:50:11,835
Everyone's a storyteller these
days, but who can predict?

868
00:50:12,045 --> 00:50:13,755
So I'm glad you asked
this question, you know.

869
00:50:14,255 --> 00:50:17,075
And then now, I mean, predicting
the future, that's hard

870
00:50:17,125 --> 00:50:18,695
because it hasn't happened yet.

871
00:50:18,955 --> 00:50:20,155
How do you predict the future?

872
00:50:20,425 --> 00:50:25,394
And I mean, you didn't prepare me for this
question, but you can see I'm prepared.

873
00:50:25,395 --> 00:50:27,235
This is my talk, but a little teaser.

874
00:50:27,615 --> 00:50:29,085
So how do you predict the future?

875
00:50:29,095 --> 00:50:29,865
Hasn't happened yet.

876
00:50:30,275 --> 00:50:33,195
And Alan Kay, he's a jazz, jazz musician.

877
00:50:33,195 --> 00:50:33,404
He's.

878
00:50:33,575 --> 00:50:34,975
Also a computer scientist.

879
00:50:35,205 --> 00:50:39,164
He said the best way to predict
the future is to invent it.

880
00:50:39,545 --> 00:50:43,405
And now we need to ask ourselves,
okay, so it's important to predict.

881
00:50:43,465 --> 00:50:46,105
How do you predict you need
to invent next question?

882
00:50:46,125 --> 00:50:46,815
How do you invent?

883
00:50:46,835 --> 00:50:51,200
And then that great inventor, Thomas
Edison, he said, well, I look at what the

884
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:55,820
world needs and then I proceed to invent.

885
00:50:56,170 --> 00:50:58,510
So he wasn't a great inventor so much.

886
00:50:58,510 --> 00:51:01,150
He was a great archeologist of needs.

887
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:05,440
You know, he could find the needs
and just serve those needs and you'll

888
00:51:05,450 --> 00:51:07,230
be an inventor in passing, I think.

889
00:51:07,660 --> 00:51:10,015
So what is the next 30 years of FinTech?

890
00:51:10,015 --> 00:51:13,390
I think we have to look
at what the world needs.

891
00:51:14,420 --> 00:51:17,830
And then we need to see, you know, what
are the goals to serve those needs?

892
00:51:18,180 --> 00:51:20,630
What's the methodology to hit those goals?

893
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:22,660
And that's kind of the tiger beetle story.

894
00:51:22,670 --> 00:51:25,350
You know, I think the world is
definitely not going to want

895
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:27,500
slower, buggier databases.

896
00:51:27,930 --> 00:51:31,150
It's going to want them to be a
thousand times faster already.

897
00:51:31,420 --> 00:51:34,870
We're actually concerned that we're
not giving enough performance because

898
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:37,610
some sectors are already 10, 000 X.

899
00:51:37,650 --> 00:51:39,640
We've only designed for a thousand X.

900
00:51:40,275 --> 00:51:44,655
So it's kind of like the world is
going to need faster infrastructure

901
00:51:44,715 --> 00:51:47,855
because you can trade that
performance for cost efficiency.

902
00:51:48,265 --> 00:51:51,545
It's going to be wanting to
run multi cloud by default.

903
00:51:51,695 --> 00:51:56,215
Like I'm talking to my area, but
for FinTech, I think regulators are

904
00:51:56,215 --> 00:51:59,055
going to say, they're already saying,
you know, you can't only be running

905
00:51:59,055 --> 00:52:01,385
on one, one of three providers.

906
00:52:01,385 --> 00:52:04,225
Cause that provider goes down and
a third of the country goes down.

907
00:52:04,245 --> 00:52:06,735
So, so open source is
going to be critical.

908
00:52:07,330 --> 00:52:11,480
That we're not locked in and
infrastructure becomes commodity.

909
00:52:11,550 --> 00:52:13,760
It has to be commodity and utility.

910
00:52:14,390 --> 00:52:18,210
The feature is going to
be faster, safer, better.

911
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:22,750
I hope at least that's what I, you know,
that's, that's, that's what we're all

912
00:52:22,750 --> 00:52:24,560
here for as a generation, isn't it?

913
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:27,890
So, and then our kids will, will
look back at us and say, you

914
00:52:27,890 --> 00:52:31,380
know, 30 years ago, there was
this database called tiger beetle.

915
00:52:31,860 --> 00:52:32,790
It's too slow.

916
00:52:34,770 --> 00:52:37,120
Lawil: Thank you so much
for answering this question.

917
00:52:37,650 --> 00:52:38,670
We're at the end of the podcast.

918
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:42,400
So I really wanted to thank you for
joining the future money podcast and

919
00:52:42,410 --> 00:52:46,560
being one of our guests and looking
forward into what is meeting you guys

920
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:49,950
at the hackathon but also at the summit
because that's when we all get together.

921
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:51,640
So thank you, Jeroen.

922
00:52:51,790 --> 00:52:52,660
Thank you so much.

923
00:52:52,850 --> 00:52:56,415
Joran: Yeah, I'm really grateful
to you for having me and Also,

924
00:52:56,575 --> 00:53:00,575
Interledger Foundation, because
it's also changed my life.

925
00:53:00,585 --> 00:53:02,875
Financial inclusion, like
you've brought me in.

926
00:53:03,555 --> 00:53:07,185
I was doing other kinds of coding and
this is now so much more exciting.

927
00:53:07,335 --> 00:53:09,555
So I also want to say thank you.

928
00:53:13,135 --> 00:53:15,775
Lawil: If you would like to learn
more about Joran Gheb's vision of the

929
00:53:15,775 --> 00:53:17,565
future, then you have two options.

930
00:53:17,705 --> 00:53:21,995
Either join us at the Interledger
Summit on the 26th and 27th of October

931
00:53:22,035 --> 00:53:25,675
in Cape Town, South Africa, or Where
he will present the next 30 years of

932
00:53:25,685 --> 00:53:29,945
transaction processing, or you can watch
the live recording of his presentation

933
00:53:29,975 --> 00:53:31,725
on the Interledger YouTube page.

934
00:53:32,665 --> 00:53:34,265
Ayesha: Hey, it's Aisha again.

935
00:53:34,505 --> 00:53:37,485
We wanted to remind you that we
are nearing the Interledger Summit.

936
00:53:37,605 --> 00:53:40,745
Join the open payments movement
where a global community of

937
00:53:40,765 --> 00:53:44,335
changemakers is re imagining the
future of digital financial systems.

938
00:53:44,935 --> 00:53:46,219
We want to welcome you to our program.

939
00:53:46,220 --> 00:53:51,760
Pre summit activities, the ILP hackathon
on October 19th and October 20th, and

940
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,030
our community open house on October 25th.

941
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:59,050
Our official summit will kick off on
October 26th with a dynamic schedule of

942
00:53:59,050 --> 00:54:01,470
inspiring speakers and engaging sessions.

943
00:54:01,970 --> 00:54:03,740
We hope you'll join us in Cape Town.

944
00:54:04,420 --> 00:54:07,730
Lawil: Thank you for tuning in to another
episode of the Future Money podcast.

945
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:12,270
And of course, make sure to subscribe and
like our podcast on Spotify, Apple Music,

946
00:54:12,300 --> 00:54:13,610
or wherever you listen to your pods.