1 00:00:05,170 --> 00:00:08,400 Lawil: Welcome to another episode of the future money podcast presented 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:12,180 by the intellectual foundation, where we invite people of all backgrounds 3 00:00:12,219 --> 00:00:15,519 and disciplines to imagine what a financially inclusive future might be. 4 00:00:15,980 --> 00:00:17,219 I'm LaVille Karama. 5 00:00:17,219 --> 00:00:20,300 And today we are in conversation with Santosh Visnatham, an 6 00:00:20,300 --> 00:00:21,960 engineer from Hyderabad, India. 7 00:00:22,174 --> 00:00:25,404 And a long time community member and previous open source ambassador 8 00:00:25,404 --> 00:00:26,825 for the Intelligent Foundation. 9 00:00:27,465 --> 00:00:30,765 In today's conversation, we will focus on his personal experiences and 10 00:00:30,794 --> 00:00:34,584 insights about how digital financial inclusion has transformed lives in 11 00:00:34,604 --> 00:00:38,564 India, his thoughts on web modernization, getting involved with open source 12 00:00:38,564 --> 00:00:41,935 communities, and of course, making financial systems more inclusive. 13 00:00:41,935 --> 00:00:43,374 So welcome Santosh to the Future Money 14 00:00:45,735 --> 00:00:49,474 Podcast, and thank you for being here. 15 00:00:50,004 --> 00:00:52,375 Could you tell us a little bit more about yourself? 16 00:00:52,574 --> 00:00:53,964 Santosh: Hi, I'm Santosh. 17 00:00:54,185 --> 00:00:55,665 I'm from Hyderabad, India. 18 00:00:56,225 --> 00:00:57,825 I've been here my whole life. 19 00:00:58,005 --> 00:01:03,245 In India, we do this, like, when you are in school, depending on which subject 20 00:01:03,245 --> 00:01:05,385 you are good at, you choose your career. 21 00:01:05,834 --> 00:01:08,975 So if you're good at science, you study to become a doctor. 22 00:01:09,374 --> 00:01:12,324 If you're good at maths, then you study to become an engineer. 23 00:01:12,774 --> 00:01:16,205 And if you're good at something else, or if you're not good at Both 24 00:01:16,205 --> 00:01:20,195 of these, then you start to become, uh, accounts or finance expert. 25 00:01:20,714 --> 00:01:24,324 So that's the usual way we make decisions when we were in school. 26 00:01:24,365 --> 00:01:26,684 So I was personally good at, uh, math. 27 00:01:27,264 --> 00:01:32,384 So I chose engineering and, uh, that's how I started my engineering. 28 00:01:32,394 --> 00:01:36,334 And I chose computer science engineering in my bachelor of technology degree. 29 00:01:36,975 --> 00:01:41,735 Although my schooling and college was in English, I never spoke in 30 00:01:41,735 --> 00:01:44,514 English until I was 18 years old. 31 00:01:44,635 --> 00:01:48,615 When I joined engineering, I know how to write, I know how to read, 32 00:01:48,655 --> 00:01:53,090 but, uh, Communication used to happen in our mother tongue, so 33 00:01:53,140 --> 00:01:55,170 I never used to speak in English. 34 00:01:55,490 --> 00:01:58,930 One thing I learned when I was in engineering is if I want to get a 35 00:01:58,930 --> 00:02:03,369 good job, if I want to get good at my career, it's not only my grades, I 36 00:02:03,369 --> 00:02:05,829 should also improve my communication. 37 00:02:05,829 --> 00:02:09,039 So that's how I joined different communities in my engineering college. 38 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:14,070 Since I was a computer science engineer, I have to gain industry 39 00:02:14,070 --> 00:02:15,150 knowledge when I'm in college. 40 00:02:15,860 --> 00:02:17,500 Help me to become a better engineer. 41 00:02:18,020 --> 00:02:22,989 So that's how I found about open source and how I can get 42 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:24,530 myself involved in open source. 43 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,270 That was my gateway to get involved with open source communities 44 00:02:28,300 --> 00:02:29,510 and open source projects. 45 00:02:30,070 --> 00:02:33,970 Lawil: So this foundation seems to be talent, or at least a starting point. 46 00:02:34,180 --> 00:02:37,080 Did you already have an interest in this field beforehand or 47 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:38,550 what led you to pursue it? 48 00:02:39,055 --> 00:02:43,995 Santosh: I choose computer science because I heard that it was easy for many of 49 00:02:43,995 --> 00:02:47,494 the many of my seniors and everyone. 50 00:02:47,495 --> 00:02:52,315 It was the most difficult one, but I heard and I just blindly followed 51 00:02:52,325 --> 00:02:56,154 their opinion and then I joined computer science engineering and 52 00:02:56,154 --> 00:02:57,874 I really enjoy building things. 53 00:02:58,105 --> 00:03:00,815 Computer science engineering is the engineering where you can 54 00:03:00,865 --> 00:03:04,535 instantly build things and view it and people can start using it. 55 00:03:05,034 --> 00:03:09,295 So that is something that made me happy in the beginning and also 56 00:03:09,344 --> 00:03:11,124 that's what got me into this field. 57 00:03:11,855 --> 00:03:15,464 Lawil: You earlier mentioned the environment you grew up and I 58 00:03:15,464 --> 00:03:18,484 was wondering, how did you start exploring or building with computers 59 00:03:18,485 --> 00:03:19,834 and materials you had available? 60 00:03:20,459 --> 00:03:22,890 And were these resources easily accessible to you? 61 00:03:23,260 --> 00:03:24,130 Santosh: Not really. 62 00:03:24,190 --> 00:03:26,830 It was not accessible until I was in my engineering. 63 00:03:27,010 --> 00:03:30,390 Once you go into engineering, like since I'm a computer science engineer, 64 00:03:30,830 --> 00:03:34,719 everything was available at the university to learn, experience myself. 65 00:03:35,170 --> 00:03:39,870 Even in engineering, I had an interesting story on my first day of my computer lab. 66 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:45,019 So my computer was slow and my professor asked me to restart my computer. 67 00:03:45,755 --> 00:03:48,355 I don't know how to restart a computer because even though I'm in 68 00:03:48,355 --> 00:03:51,434 computer science engineering, I have never experienced a computer myself. 69 00:03:51,865 --> 00:03:54,734 So I just turned off the plug and turned it on again. 70 00:03:55,145 --> 00:03:59,075 I was not aware there are some options on the computer to restart my machine. 71 00:03:59,414 --> 00:04:00,954 So that was the knowledge I had. 72 00:04:01,305 --> 00:04:04,174 But after engineering, even though I don't have a personal computer 73 00:04:04,315 --> 00:04:07,605 myself, they are pretty accessible in all of the engineering colleges. 74 00:04:07,975 --> 00:04:10,014 So that was one of the good things that happened. 75 00:04:10,395 --> 00:04:13,365 Lawil: That's really fascinating, considering the focus on digital 76 00:04:13,375 --> 00:04:15,045 finance and financial inclusion. 77 00:04:15,595 --> 00:04:18,085 Would you say that these concepts influenced the start 78 00:04:18,085 --> 00:04:19,305 of your engineering career? 79 00:04:19,425 --> 00:04:22,694 And during that time, did you ever encounter situations that made you 80 00:04:22,694 --> 00:04:27,385 question conventional practices, like how we exchange value or transfer resources? 81 00:04:27,455 --> 00:04:29,934 Was there a particular moment where you thought, why do we 82 00:04:29,934 --> 00:04:31,134 actually do this in this manner? 83 00:04:31,184 --> 00:04:33,314 Or how are we truly connected in this process? 84 00:04:33,695 --> 00:04:34,875 Santosh: Yes, yes. 85 00:04:35,185 --> 00:04:38,895 So I don't think any of my parents or my relatives had a 86 00:04:38,895 --> 00:04:40,895 bank account when I was a student. 87 00:04:41,344 --> 00:04:44,955 My father got his first bank account when I was 15 years old. 88 00:04:45,455 --> 00:04:51,065 Digital finances was not really a thing and most of the systems used to work on 89 00:04:51,215 --> 00:04:56,060 cash, but that Made a lot of people lose a lot of opportunities as well because 90 00:04:56,060 --> 00:04:58,739 of the lack of digital infrastructure. 91 00:04:59,369 --> 00:05:04,940 Our Indian banking sector has went from 30 percent banking, like 10 years back to 92 00:05:04,940 --> 00:05:07,060 like around 80 percent banking right now. 93 00:05:07,789 --> 00:05:12,899 And that has opened the doors for a lot of opportunities and a lot of people. 94 00:05:13,500 --> 00:05:16,130 I have learned this early in my career. 95 00:05:16,430 --> 00:05:19,630 The poor pay the most for any of the digital services. 96 00:05:20,130 --> 00:05:20,730 For example. 97 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:25,460 If my father had a bank account to maintain a minimum balance, 98 00:05:25,820 --> 00:05:27,460 he has to pay for the debit card. 99 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,290 If he has a credit card, he has to pay the charge for the credit card. 100 00:05:30,740 --> 00:05:35,700 And even if he is withdrawing the money from the bank or depositing the money 101 00:05:35,710 --> 00:05:40,495 into the bank, he is charged for every services because he has like a. Minimum 102 00:05:40,505 --> 00:05:44,844 balance holder at the bank, but the rich doesn't have to go to anything. 103 00:05:45,235 --> 00:05:48,965 A person who has a like quality job right now, it doesn't has to pay for 104 00:05:48,995 --> 00:05:51,995 the bank account maintenance, debit card, credit card, and everything. 105 00:05:52,005 --> 00:05:53,455 Everything is freely available for them. 106 00:05:54,125 --> 00:05:56,445 So that made me think that we should have. 107 00:05:56,719 --> 00:06:00,710 More digitally inclusive platforms and financially inclusive 108 00:06:00,719 --> 00:06:04,169 products so that everyone can be a part of the growth story. 109 00:06:04,260 --> 00:06:08,189 Either it might be my city's growth story or my country's growth story. 110 00:06:08,740 --> 00:06:11,050 I realized it would give an equal opportunity for 111 00:06:11,090 --> 00:06:12,650 everyone to be a part of it. 112 00:06:13,149 --> 00:06:15,489 So that is an early experience that I had. 113 00:06:15,919 --> 00:06:17,909 Lawil: So this is for our listeners, but could you please 114 00:06:17,909 --> 00:06:20,039 explain the UPI system in India? 115 00:06:20,150 --> 00:06:21,900 Because I want to make sure that while people are listening to our 116 00:06:21,900 --> 00:06:24,950 conversation, they're aware of what we're actually talking about. 117 00:06:24,950 --> 00:06:25,690 Santosh: True. 118 00:06:25,690 --> 00:06:30,340 So UPI is a unified payment interface by the National 119 00:06:30,379 --> 00:06:31,940 Payments Corporation in India. 120 00:06:32,549 --> 00:06:36,649 They built an interface that could be adopted by all the banks 121 00:06:37,319 --> 00:06:39,059 and other payment solutions. 122 00:06:39,639 --> 00:06:41,460 Payments can seamlessly happen. 123 00:06:41,705 --> 00:06:47,075 And payments can be instantaneous, even the small payments can easily happen. 124 00:06:47,755 --> 00:06:52,285 So that's UPI for people who wants to know about the new payment system. 125 00:06:52,485 --> 00:06:56,584 Lawil: So do you believe that achieving 80 percent through the UPI system, uh, 126 00:06:56,584 --> 00:06:58,884 marks a significant milestone for India? 127 00:06:59,114 --> 00:07:00,725 Where do you still see areas for growth? 128 00:07:01,270 --> 00:07:06,510 Santosh: Yes, UPI was one of the systems that made payments easier. 129 00:07:06,980 --> 00:07:09,100 In UPI, you have to have a bank account. 130 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:14,210 So what the government initiatives did is, it opened bank accounts for everyone. 131 00:07:14,650 --> 00:07:17,839 And it is called zero balance accounts, which means you don't 132 00:07:17,850 --> 00:07:19,480 have to maintain any balance. 133 00:07:19,850 --> 00:07:22,600 You will be given a free debit card and you don't have to 134 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,230 pay for any of the services. 135 00:07:24,555 --> 00:07:28,415 So this has opened up the doors for the ruler population and a 136 00:07:28,495 --> 00:07:30,245 lot more population in India. 137 00:07:30,415 --> 00:07:34,385 Everyone started to have a bank account and now everyone has a bank account. 138 00:07:34,545 --> 00:07:39,245 We have to build a payment system that is cost effective for the institutions 139 00:07:39,594 --> 00:07:44,515 and that can exchange value instantly and that's when UPI came into the picture. 140 00:07:45,025 --> 00:07:48,114 So it was heavily adopted by all the payment banks, all 141 00:07:48,124 --> 00:07:49,655 the institutionalized banks. 142 00:07:49,655 --> 00:07:53,794 So now everyone got a bank account and payments started to happen easily. 143 00:07:54,409 --> 00:07:55,560 With more convenience. 144 00:07:55,870 --> 00:07:59,039 And now with this, what happened is people started to have money in 145 00:07:59,039 --> 00:08:03,309 their banks and they also started to build their credit score. 146 00:08:03,569 --> 00:08:08,940 So imagine a small business owner who is making very few amount of money, started 147 00:08:08,969 --> 00:08:13,300 to maintain bank balance, and he started to maintain a relationship with the bank. 148 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:18,370 Now it is easy for the bank to evaluate his credit score and then to give him 149 00:08:18,370 --> 00:08:20,310 good loans for growth in the business. 150 00:08:20,820 --> 00:08:23,759 So all this started just because. 151 00:08:24,285 --> 00:08:28,965 He initially opened a bank account, which was provided at him with a low cost. 152 00:08:28,965 --> 00:08:33,544 So that gave rise to a lot of other solutions to make it easier for 153 00:08:33,544 --> 00:08:37,245 people and to improve their standard of living and cost of living. 154 00:08:37,824 --> 00:08:40,634 Lawil: Oh, that's really interesting because I remember you mentioning that 155 00:08:40,634 --> 00:08:44,354 the government introduced a digital wallet or the zero cost wallets. 156 00:08:44,855 --> 00:08:46,245 And then the UPI followed. 157 00:08:46,555 --> 00:08:49,105 And let me think about the centralized effort behind it. 158 00:08:49,465 --> 00:08:52,645 This seems to have driven a rapid adoption and an incredible 159 00:08:52,705 --> 00:08:54,215 quick adoption cycle as well. 160 00:08:54,355 --> 00:08:56,444 Santosh: Yes, it was not easy at first. 161 00:08:56,775 --> 00:09:00,075 But there were some other initiatives by the government 162 00:09:00,085 --> 00:09:01,894 to move away from cash economy. 163 00:09:02,274 --> 00:09:06,055 So that has actually fast tracked the adoption of banking culture 164 00:09:06,215 --> 00:09:07,785 among the population in India. 165 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,120 Lawil: And was there a reason behind it except for that they wanted to have their 166 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,070 society move towards a carcerous society? 167 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,490 Santosh: So there used to be a saying that every dollar that the government 168 00:09:16,490 --> 00:09:20,999 spends on a poor person, only 15 cents reach to the person actually. 169 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,100 85 percent is lost somewhere in the middle. 170 00:09:24,610 --> 00:09:27,220 It might be due to corruption, it might be due to the charges. 171 00:09:27,550 --> 00:09:30,510 Only 15 percent used to reach the person. 172 00:09:30,980 --> 00:09:34,530 Opening the bank accounts for the people gave rise to a scheme 173 00:09:34,530 --> 00:09:35,900 called direct bank transfer. 174 00:09:36,110 --> 00:09:40,200 Where the government can directly deposit the amount to the account of the people. 175 00:09:40,699 --> 00:09:42,770 So there is no value lost in between. 176 00:09:42,790 --> 00:09:46,620 And it made it convenient for the people to get benefited 177 00:09:46,620 --> 00:09:48,199 from governments directly. 178 00:09:48,740 --> 00:09:49,129 Lawil: Okay. 179 00:09:49,129 --> 00:09:50,489 I understand it better now. 180 00:09:50,669 --> 00:09:53,060 Thank you for explaining the ecosystem, even though it's just a 181 00:09:53,060 --> 00:09:54,999 small glimpse into a larger picture. 182 00:09:55,490 --> 00:09:56,790 I'd like to ask though. 183 00:09:57,335 --> 00:10:00,155 What does digital financial inclusion mean to you personally? 184 00:10:00,405 --> 00:10:05,065 Santosh: I usually relate this with the internet, because the reason 185 00:10:05,065 --> 00:10:08,195 that we are able to speak to each other and we got connected to 186 00:10:08,224 --> 00:10:09,744 each other is because of internet. 187 00:10:10,535 --> 00:10:15,905 I'm involved in a revolutionary product called internet that has opened me doors 188 00:10:15,905 --> 00:10:20,524 for a lot of opportunities and made me a better person and introduced me 189 00:10:20,524 --> 00:10:25,074 to a lot of amazing people where I can learn and share my ideas and everything. 190 00:10:25,614 --> 00:10:30,480 And Similarly, if it has reached me and if it has to reach everyone, 191 00:10:30,630 --> 00:10:34,400 that's where I think digital inclusion, uh, comes into the picture 192 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:36,220 where everyone is being included. 193 00:10:36,639 --> 00:10:37,960 Everyone is being heard. 194 00:10:38,429 --> 00:10:42,200 And, uh, when we are solving a problem, we keep everyone in mind. 195 00:10:42,839 --> 00:10:44,850 So that's what digital inclusion means. 196 00:10:45,090 --> 00:10:48,330 Covid was one of the life changing moments for a lot of people. 197 00:10:48,850 --> 00:10:51,640 The main challenge was for people who are students. 198 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:53,079 They couldn't go to school. 199 00:10:53,099 --> 00:10:54,030 Everything was closed. 200 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,969 They couldn't attend their classes and the colleges and every institution 201 00:10:57,969 --> 00:10:59,599 started to adopt online teaching. 202 00:11:00,219 --> 00:11:03,069 But only people who had access to mobile phones and internet 203 00:11:03,070 --> 00:11:04,379 were able to access them. 204 00:11:04,910 --> 00:11:08,120 Imagine if everyone was included in this particular initiative. 205 00:11:08,140 --> 00:11:12,160 No one would have stopped going to school just because he doesn't have 206 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:17,470 access to the internet or Uh, other opportunities and similarly, when it comes 207 00:11:17,470 --> 00:11:21,450 to financial inclusions, I think it will give equal opportunities for everyone 208 00:11:21,500 --> 00:11:23,410 included in the financial systems. 209 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,470 When we remove those blockers of having everyone into our systems, 210 00:11:27,470 --> 00:11:30,950 I think it will make the world a better place for a lot of people. 211 00:11:31,500 --> 00:11:35,310 Lawil: Oh yeah, I completely agree and thank you for explaining this to me. 212 00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:40,665 I believe this is quite important because of your role as an Open source 213 00:11:40,665 --> 00:11:45,165 ambassador as an intellectual open source ambassador with a focus on weaponization 214 00:11:45,214 --> 00:11:47,125 and advancing its development. 215 00:11:47,344 --> 00:11:50,805 Could you share more about what your role entailed? 216 00:11:51,195 --> 00:11:51,535 Santosh: Sure. 217 00:11:51,884 --> 00:11:56,384 So my role as an ambassador is to help build open source culture and 218 00:11:56,384 --> 00:12:00,395 also to actually create programs that would help people to be a part 219 00:12:00,405 --> 00:12:02,165 of this growth story at interledger. 220 00:12:03,435 --> 00:12:04,395 So that's my. 221 00:12:04,460 --> 00:12:07,180 has an ambassador at Interledger. 222 00:12:07,589 --> 00:12:11,550 We help create programs to get people involved because like I told you 223 00:12:11,599 --> 00:12:15,540 early in my career, the way to get global exposure was to involve with 224 00:12:15,630 --> 00:12:18,990 global open source communities and get adopted with open source culture. 225 00:12:19,489 --> 00:12:23,129 I want to provide the same opportunities for everyone who is even not aware of it. 226 00:12:23,149 --> 00:12:25,479 So that's why I was helping us. 227 00:12:25,855 --> 00:12:30,505 At Intellidger be a part of Hacktoberfest, which will open the doors of getting 228 00:12:30,505 --> 00:12:33,715 involved with Intellidger to everyone who is looking to participate 229 00:12:33,715 --> 00:12:35,495 in life changing technologies. 230 00:12:36,084 --> 00:12:37,875 And I believe ILP is one of them. 231 00:12:37,925 --> 00:12:39,785 And that's what I was pushing. 232 00:12:40,035 --> 00:12:42,115 Lawil: So then what makes you believe that this is one of the 233 00:12:42,135 --> 00:12:43,944 transformative technologies of our time? 234 00:12:44,410 --> 00:12:47,070 Santosh: It comes down to the first discussion that we had. 235 00:12:47,100 --> 00:12:52,140 I have closely observed how UPI has changed the lives of people in India. 236 00:12:52,710 --> 00:12:55,659 So there was a story which I heard a couple of years back. 237 00:12:56,090 --> 00:12:59,600 A vegetable seller was sharing about his experience with UPI. 238 00:13:00,110 --> 00:13:02,830 He said he started getting a habit of saving. 239 00:13:03,030 --> 00:13:06,220 Because now he started to accept payments with the UPI. 240 00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:09,540 He gets the money transferred to his bank account and some people 241 00:13:09,540 --> 00:13:11,080 would pay him with this cash. 242 00:13:11,470 --> 00:13:15,170 So how he used to run his business is using the cash to buy the new 243 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:16,760 vegetables and then sell it around. 244 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,760 But the money which is was in bank, he used to keep it safe for his future. 245 00:13:21,340 --> 00:13:21,780 So. 246 00:13:22,235 --> 00:13:28,305 Those financial systems, small financial systems has impacted the lives of 247 00:13:28,305 --> 00:13:30,628 people and it has created new habits. 248 00:13:30,628 --> 00:13:34,165 They are a part of a cashless economy right now. 249 00:13:34,594 --> 00:13:39,185 I have seen that closely in India and I strongly believe that protocols such as 250 00:13:39,214 --> 00:13:42,305 ILP will make it happen around the world. 251 00:13:42,805 --> 00:13:47,255 That's why I was super excited and I was very positive about how 252 00:13:47,345 --> 00:13:48,765 ILP is going to change the world. 253 00:13:49,410 --> 00:13:52,550 Lawil: So within your role as an open source ambassador with the focus on 254 00:13:52,550 --> 00:13:55,949 web monetization, I'm curious, how did you first discover the concept? 255 00:13:56,219 --> 00:13:59,219 I mean, the subject is broader than just what the intellectual protocol is 256 00:13:59,219 --> 00:14:02,949 achieving with monetization, but what initially brought you to this concept? 257 00:14:03,199 --> 00:14:05,609 Santosh: Yeah, so that was an interesting story. 258 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,660 So I'm a front end developer, which means anything that happens in the world of 259 00:14:09,689 --> 00:14:11,999 JavaScript is something that excites me. 260 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,369 Before web monetization, there was something called WebVR. 261 00:14:15,564 --> 00:14:17,415 where you can build VR applications on the web. 262 00:14:17,415 --> 00:14:19,205 That was exciting to me. 263 00:14:19,205 --> 00:14:20,055 I was building it. 264 00:14:20,055 --> 00:14:22,335 I was sharing it with the people at conferences. 265 00:14:22,715 --> 00:14:25,905 Then there was web extensions, which are like browser add ons. 266 00:14:26,265 --> 00:14:27,515 So I was sharing about that. 267 00:14:27,875 --> 00:14:32,555 And then I came across a new web standard, a very pretty new standard, 268 00:14:32,555 --> 00:14:34,365 which is called web monetization. 269 00:14:34,895 --> 00:14:38,814 I saw some of my friends sharing or someone else sharing on the social media. 270 00:14:39,155 --> 00:14:40,444 I thought, this sounds interesting. 271 00:14:41,045 --> 00:14:42,865 Internet for us is easy. 272 00:14:43,125 --> 00:14:45,425 Anything you want to do on the internet, it is easy. 273 00:14:45,425 --> 00:14:47,905 You want to share information, documents, or anything. 274 00:14:47,915 --> 00:14:51,895 It's easy on the internet, but just when it comes to sharing money on the 275 00:14:51,895 --> 00:14:56,324 internet, there are a lot of hurdles at every step that you want to do it. 276 00:14:56,805 --> 00:15:00,995 But web monetization, I think the name attracted me and I saw like how we 277 00:15:00,995 --> 00:15:02,925 can exchange value on the internet. 278 00:15:03,395 --> 00:15:06,885 And that was my first introduction to web monetization. 279 00:15:07,224 --> 00:15:11,334 I don't know about Intellidger at that point, but web monetization as a 280 00:15:11,334 --> 00:15:13,285 standard of something that I came across. 281 00:15:13,704 --> 00:15:17,734 Then I read about the people who are building it and that's how I got to know 282 00:15:17,734 --> 00:15:22,084 about interledger and I read their mission and vision statement where we want to 283 00:15:22,094 --> 00:15:24,034 make payments as easy as sending an email. 284 00:15:24,775 --> 00:15:28,744 So that was very impressive for me because I was looking at the problems 285 00:15:28,745 --> 00:15:33,095 already and that was my way to get involved with web monetization. 286 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,740 Lawil: And then you started working on the medium. 287 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,540 Santosh: Uh, so after that, I came to know about the grant for the web 288 00:15:39,540 --> 00:15:42,000 program where you can submit a project. 289 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:43,799 I submitted a project. 290 00:15:44,140 --> 00:15:45,300 I didn't get selected. 291 00:15:45,609 --> 00:15:48,939 The standard was something that stayed with me, like web monetization as a 292 00:15:48,939 --> 00:15:51,949 concept and JavaScript API stayed with me. 293 00:15:51,949 --> 00:15:55,959 So I started to experiment around the medium thing that you're talking about. 294 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:57,640 I am from India. 295 00:15:57,670 --> 00:15:59,500 I can write my content on medium. 296 00:15:59,500 --> 00:16:00,990 I can write blog posts on medium. 297 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,100 I can read other people's posts on Medium. 298 00:16:04,490 --> 00:16:06,680 I can buy a subscription also from Medium. 299 00:16:07,150 --> 00:16:10,520 But if I want to make money for the content that I write from 300 00:16:10,530 --> 00:16:12,630 Medium, I'm not eligible for it. 301 00:16:12,980 --> 00:16:17,979 Because I'm not from one of the 40 countries where people can 302 00:16:17,980 --> 00:16:19,359 monetize their content from. 303 00:16:19,940 --> 00:16:22,560 Lawil: Is there a specific reason why these countries face these blocks? 304 00:16:22,610 --> 00:16:25,970 I understand there are lists like the AML list, so that's 305 00:16:25,970 --> 00:16:27,190 the Anti Money Laundering List. 306 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,400 But it seems unusual that individuals from countries such as India, for 307 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:35,650 example, are unable to earn through participation on platforms such as Medium. 308 00:16:35,909 --> 00:16:37,400 You don't think that's quite strange? 309 00:16:37,610 --> 00:16:39,500 Santosh: I don't know the exact reason for it. 310 00:16:39,830 --> 00:16:42,489 I mean, if there was a reason for it, it would have been solved in 311 00:16:42,489 --> 00:16:43,670 like last three or four years. 312 00:16:43,670 --> 00:16:44,149 But if it's. 313 00:16:44,250 --> 00:16:45,380 still didn't get solved. 314 00:16:45,540 --> 00:16:49,670 I don't know the whole idea of medium about like why it is not doing it. 315 00:16:49,990 --> 00:16:54,770 And it's not only in India, but it's like only 40 to 45 countries can 316 00:16:54,770 --> 00:16:59,009 monetize their content and like rest 140 countries are not even be a part of it. 317 00:16:59,340 --> 00:17:00,660 We can buy a subscription though. 318 00:17:00,709 --> 00:17:03,870 We can write content for free, but we cannot make money. 319 00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:05,150 It sounded unfair to me. 320 00:17:05,150 --> 00:17:06,119 So yeah. 321 00:17:08,430 --> 00:17:09,540 Ayesha: What's up, listeners? 322 00:17:09,700 --> 00:17:13,550 I'm Aisha Ware, Program Manager at the Interledger Foundation, and 323 00:17:13,550 --> 00:17:15,400 we've got something exciting for you. 324 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:20,400 I recently collaborated with Grammy Award nominated mixed media artist Carolyn 325 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:25,049 Malachi, who teaches a course on advanced audio production at Howard University. 326 00:17:25,389 --> 00:17:30,180 The course challenges students to develop amazing audio projects, including film 327 00:17:30,180 --> 00:17:36,325 scores, audio books, and of course, For the next few episodes of the Future Money 328 00:17:36,345 --> 00:17:41,825 Podcast, we'll be sharing an exclusive audio piece about Interledger, produced 329 00:17:41,825 --> 00:17:44,184 and edited by one of Carolyn's students. 330 00:17:44,625 --> 00:17:47,635 Please enjoy this sample, created by Emily Green. 331 00:17:48,689 --> 00:17:50,949 Emily Green: The Interledger Summit is a global gathering held by 332 00:17:50,969 --> 00:17:54,320 the Global Interoperable Payments Network, Interledger, with the hopes 333 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,760 of connecting the people who are transforming the future of digital 334 00:17:56,770 --> 00:17:58,270 financial services through Open Tech. 335 00:17:59,049 --> 00:18:02,099 By bringing together innovators, regulators, and anyone excluded 336 00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:05,039 from essential services to build equity and inclusion, we hope 337 00:18:05,039 --> 00:18:05,930 to create new opportunities. 338 00:18:07,010 --> 00:18:10,310 This is your chance to hear from changemakers, artists, and innovators who 339 00:18:10,310 --> 00:18:13,870 are looking for new ways to do things, solve the problems in the communities, and 340 00:18:13,870 --> 00:18:15,470 make a world where everyone is included. 341 00:18:16,370 --> 00:18:18,210 You won't want to miss this opportunity to network with 342 00:18:18,220 --> 00:18:19,470 people that will change the world. 343 00:18:20,270 --> 00:18:21,320 Visit intellenger. 344 00:18:21,370 --> 00:18:25,270 org slash summit to discover more and explore how digital financial services 345 00:18:25,509 --> 00:18:27,250 can work for everyone, everywhere. 346 00:18:30,815 --> 00:18:35,745 Ayesha: I am amazed by the remarkably talented students at Howard University. 347 00:18:36,045 --> 00:18:40,125 Let me tell you, I've seen firsthand how Carolyn's course has equipped 348 00:18:40,125 --> 00:18:43,855 them with the practical skills and real world experience needed 349 00:18:43,855 --> 00:18:45,944 to excel in the audio industry. 350 00:18:46,284 --> 00:18:48,635 And I cannot wait to see what they all do next. 351 00:18:48,770 --> 00:18:51,905 So 352 00:18:51,905 --> 00:18:58,229 Lawil: what I love about this conversation is actually that 353 00:18:58,229 --> 00:18:59,609 it's a fascinating journey. 354 00:18:59,769 --> 00:19:03,309 Considering your experience, I would love to explore your perspective on this. 355 00:19:03,489 --> 00:19:06,459 Why do you believe that open source methodologies and collaborative 356 00:19:06,489 --> 00:19:09,959 coding practices are essential for advancing weaponization? 357 00:19:10,210 --> 00:19:13,780 Because it seems that your work not only addresses the technical aspects, but it 358 00:19:13,780 --> 00:19:17,960 also questions the inclusivity of the web and especially on closed platforms. 359 00:19:18,129 --> 00:19:21,550 So why do you think these barriers exist and how can open source approaches help 360 00:19:21,550 --> 00:19:25,840 overcome to create a more inclusive digital ecosystem for all users? 361 00:19:26,429 --> 00:19:26,810 Santosh: Yes. 362 00:19:27,090 --> 00:19:32,199 So one of the mission statements at Interledger was to hear the voices that 363 00:19:32,199 --> 00:19:36,189 were not heard before while building the next generation payment system. 364 00:19:36,779 --> 00:19:40,719 So imagine a person sitting in Hyderabad, India, who was in Hyderabad 365 00:19:40,870 --> 00:19:45,729 all his life, is able to share his ideas about how the next generation 366 00:19:46,150 --> 00:19:50,520 internet should work and how the monetization Should work on the web. 367 00:19:51,100 --> 00:19:56,389 I think both providing the opportunity and also taking that opportunity as a 368 00:19:56,389 --> 00:20:00,350 person is only possible in an open source environment and open source culture. 369 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,370 So you can hear all the voices you can discuss. 370 00:20:05,180 --> 00:20:09,170 They in the pros and cons and then make the final decision, but this will help 371 00:20:09,190 --> 00:20:11,520 us to hear the unheard voices before. 372 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,619 So that is what makes me believe that I'm building it as an open source 373 00:20:15,619 --> 00:20:19,870 technology and open source API will add a lot of value to what's what 374 00:20:19,870 --> 00:20:21,769 we want to achieve at Intel Azure. 375 00:20:22,539 --> 00:20:23,740 Lawil: I completely understand. 376 00:20:23,780 --> 00:20:27,400 And what I find particularly intriguing is your dual role as both an engineer 377 00:20:27,510 --> 00:20:31,610 and also somebody who's a community builder who's engaging with users. 378 00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:35,210 It seems that one of the reasons this technology hasn't been widely adopting. 379 00:20:35,735 --> 00:20:39,105 Aside from the technical challenges, is the lack of awareness among people? 380 00:20:39,254 --> 00:20:42,294 How do you think users or consumers should collaborate or participate more actively 381 00:20:42,334 --> 00:20:46,284 in building out this ecosystem and then in the end, of course, driving its adoption? 382 00:20:46,595 --> 00:20:48,784 Santosh: Yes, I think it is not going to be easy. 383 00:20:48,784 --> 00:20:51,864 I mean, you already mentioned how challenging it is going to be dealing 384 00:20:51,865 --> 00:20:55,875 with the different stakeholders and also create a new whole system and 385 00:20:55,925 --> 00:20:59,735 give it to the people, which is like very much different from the existing 386 00:20:59,735 --> 00:21:03,195 systems that are there on the internet, but I think taking constant feedback. 387 00:21:03,439 --> 00:21:07,489 Sharing as well as listening to people around the globe is something 388 00:21:07,499 --> 00:21:10,510 that is going to make the standard a widely accepted standard. 389 00:21:11,050 --> 00:21:14,450 So there is one story which we usually discuss in other meetups and 390 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:19,029 other summits where we talk about a story of telephone, like to bring 391 00:21:19,029 --> 00:21:20,939 down the cost of telephone lines. 392 00:21:21,290 --> 00:21:23,060 Everyone should adopt the telephones. 393 00:21:23,129 --> 00:21:27,270 I mean back in those days that was the only way to go But if everyone wants 394 00:21:27,270 --> 00:21:30,120 to adopt the telephone, they should first see the value in it only then they 395 00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:34,120 will adopt it So it was a chicken and egg problem all the time And even now 396 00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:37,740 it is going to be the same chicken and egg problem But we have solved similar 397 00:21:37,740 --> 00:21:42,909 problems in the history of humanity a lot of times So I think we are going 398 00:21:42,909 --> 00:21:47,840 to solve that problem again And, uh, whenever we share something new about 399 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:52,770 web monetization or whenever we see a new blog on web monetization, there are a lot 400 00:21:52,770 --> 00:21:54,430 of discussions happening among people. 401 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,289 It is both from the creators, both from the users. 402 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:01,560 It is also from how, if you are very helpful, The scary in the sense, what 403 00:22:01,610 --> 00:22:06,389 if like Google or Apple going to block the complete standard on their machines? 404 00:22:06,700 --> 00:22:09,360 How is the world going to look like after this? 405 00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:13,940 So there are a quite number of good discussions happening and I think everyone 406 00:22:13,940 --> 00:22:19,680 is aware of both the problem and everyone is aware that the solution is not going 407 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,990 to be easy and it is always going to be a challenging task one after the other. 408 00:22:24,340 --> 00:22:26,990 But I think we have a good community. 409 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:32,479 And everyone is interested and everyone wants to make web monetization 410 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,129 a worthwhile way to help people to monetize their web content. 411 00:22:36,550 --> 00:22:39,989 So I think all these ideas and all these people will make it happen. 412 00:22:40,540 --> 00:22:41,960 Do you have any suggestions? 413 00:22:42,529 --> 00:22:45,290 There were some ideas being discussed among the community itself. 414 00:22:45,770 --> 00:22:48,530 One of the ideas, which we also tried during grant for 415 00:22:48,530 --> 00:22:50,959 the web is to find platforms. 416 00:22:52,030 --> 00:22:58,340 That already has a good base, but they don't have a proper monetization strategy 417 00:22:58,340 --> 00:23:00,649 or way for whatever reasons it might be. 418 00:23:00,659 --> 00:23:04,070 They might not want to monetize their content or they are still exploring 419 00:23:04,070 --> 00:23:05,220 different ways of monetizing. 420 00:23:05,610 --> 00:23:09,179 One idea was to go to those platforms and ask them to adopt web monetization. 421 00:23:10,535 --> 00:23:13,825 With this, what happens is there is already a large user base. 422 00:23:13,865 --> 00:23:18,125 There is already a large creator base with that particular platform and adopting 423 00:23:18,254 --> 00:23:20,154 web monetization is not rocket science. 424 00:23:20,165 --> 00:23:24,575 It's easy to adopt the web monetization and add the web 425 00:23:24,575 --> 00:23:26,184 monetization code to the platform. 426 00:23:26,214 --> 00:23:30,605 So I think one of the idea that was to go to these platforms, help them 427 00:23:30,655 --> 00:23:32,375 adopt the web monetization standard. 428 00:23:32,784 --> 00:23:35,665 Now you have both the users and creators who are web monetized. 429 00:23:36,034 --> 00:23:38,854 Let's hear from them what they have to say and start working on the 430 00:23:38,854 --> 00:23:40,294 feedback and make things better. 431 00:23:41,015 --> 00:23:44,125 Lawil: So we talked about the tools for the public sphere, but are there also 432 00:23:44,165 --> 00:23:46,565 barriers towards the design principles? 433 00:23:46,905 --> 00:23:51,265 Santosh: I think one of the barrier that I see from my perspective is there 434 00:23:51,265 --> 00:23:56,075 is a lack of content about what could the barriers be and how should the 435 00:23:56,085 --> 00:24:01,124 design be and how should the experience be if I adopt web monetization. 436 00:24:01,135 --> 00:24:04,024 What are the services that I should provide for my users? 437 00:24:04,534 --> 00:24:06,354 There is a lack of proper. 438 00:24:06,889 --> 00:24:10,930 Step by step guide for this, but I think there are good examples 439 00:24:10,930 --> 00:24:14,800 of how people have adopted monetization and even on the website. 440 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:19,170 If you go to the website, you will see some good examples of how you can improve 441 00:24:19,179 --> 00:24:20,989 the experience for web monetize users. 442 00:24:21,019 --> 00:24:23,260 For example, I have a blog post. 443 00:24:23,599 --> 00:24:24,869 People are reading it by default. 444 00:24:25,515 --> 00:24:27,965 The revenue sharing that currently that I might be getting 445 00:24:27,965 --> 00:24:29,105 my revenue from Google Ads. 446 00:24:29,814 --> 00:24:33,134 But if I adopt the web monetization standard, then I can have two 447 00:24:33,134 --> 00:24:34,544 ways of monetizing my content. 448 00:24:35,004 --> 00:24:39,425 One is for default users, I can still serve ads and make some money out of it. 449 00:24:39,745 --> 00:24:42,644 And the other one is provide an experience without ads for 450 00:24:42,705 --> 00:24:43,814 all the web monetized users. 451 00:24:44,584 --> 00:24:48,064 So this is an example that we have on webmonetization. 452 00:24:48,064 --> 00:24:48,304 org. 453 00:24:48,375 --> 00:24:51,935 I think that is one of the design principles that people can adopt 454 00:24:51,995 --> 00:24:56,214 about how people can enhance the experience of webmonetized users. 455 00:24:56,774 --> 00:24:59,274 Lawil: Do you believe that there aren't many examples because this 456 00:24:59,304 --> 00:25:03,125 area hasn't been explored enough or researched thoroughly enough yet? 457 00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:08,999 Santosh: I think the main bottleneck here was a lack of a web monetization provider. 458 00:25:09,529 --> 00:25:12,139 So that has delayed all the efforts. 459 00:25:12,339 --> 00:25:15,749 I mean, from a standard perspective and from the technology perspective, 460 00:25:15,769 --> 00:25:17,149 we are at a pretty good shape. 461 00:25:17,639 --> 00:25:21,199 The standards pages, the web monetization spec is already updated 462 00:25:21,229 --> 00:25:24,649 with all the latest offerings and the latest standard read. 463 00:25:25,009 --> 00:25:28,889 But lack of a web monetization provider to test the web monetize 464 00:25:28,919 --> 00:25:31,379 features is one of the bottleneck. 465 00:25:31,379 --> 00:25:32,649 I think once that is solved. 466 00:25:33,185 --> 00:25:36,685 I think everything would go along with it and get itself fast, right? 467 00:25:37,225 --> 00:25:41,455 Lawil: So what I'm actually wondering about, if the lack of web monetization 468 00:25:41,455 --> 00:25:45,094 providers is not due to the lack of consumer interest, but rather because 469 00:25:45,095 --> 00:25:48,994 people or companies are satisfied with the current models on the web, maybe 470 00:25:49,005 --> 00:25:50,785 satisfied is even the wrong word. 471 00:25:51,725 --> 00:25:55,265 Santosh: So personally, I think it is both of the things, the web 472 00:25:55,265 --> 00:25:57,305 monetization is still in the draft state. 473 00:25:57,305 --> 00:26:01,265 So I think once it becomes a proper standard on the web, where every 474 00:26:01,265 --> 00:26:04,565 browser has adopted the standard, then we will see a lot of web 475 00:26:04,565 --> 00:26:06,335 monetization providers in the market. 476 00:26:06,335 --> 00:26:07,615 So that's my personal opinion. 477 00:26:08,135 --> 00:26:11,035 Since it is of draft state, no one is moving forward to 478 00:26:11,065 --> 00:26:12,185 adopt that particular API. 479 00:26:13,065 --> 00:26:16,855 And the other one is, I think everyone wants to. 480 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,180 Wait, watch, and then implement it. 481 00:26:19,180 --> 00:26:22,129 So that is one reason why no one wants to build their own 482 00:26:22,149 --> 00:26:23,659 web monetization provider yet. 483 00:26:24,020 --> 00:26:27,439 They want to see people getting succeeded first and then invest in it. 484 00:26:27,500 --> 00:26:29,530 So I think that's how the world works. 485 00:26:30,349 --> 00:26:31,130 Lawil: Yeah, that's true. 486 00:26:31,179 --> 00:26:33,679 You need a breakthrough moment or a unicorn to emerge for 487 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,149 people to hop on the bandwagon. 488 00:26:35,459 --> 00:26:36,990 So that leads to my next question. 489 00:26:37,110 --> 00:26:38,480 How do you think it will catch on? 490 00:26:38,679 --> 00:26:43,510 I mean, this is something we've discussed often, although to be fair, I believe 491 00:26:43,510 --> 00:26:45,190 you've already explained it quite clearly. 492 00:26:45,460 --> 00:26:48,530 Santosh: Yes, I think it's because of the bottleneck of web 493 00:26:48,530 --> 00:26:51,290 monetization for instance, we don't have it and everything is stopped. 494 00:26:51,630 --> 00:26:55,440 But personally, I feel everything is on track right now, for 495 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,320 example, the web monetization spec. 496 00:26:57,860 --> 00:27:01,070 I've ordered a lot and our latest draft is already in this 497 00:27:01,100 --> 00:27:02,540 web monetization spec page. 498 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,500 So the draft is ready and there are a lot of libraries that were built 499 00:27:07,650 --> 00:27:09,570 using the first version of the draft. 500 00:27:10,129 --> 00:27:12,850 And out of those libraries, I think four or five were 501 00:27:12,950 --> 00:27:15,180 already ported to the new draft. 502 00:27:15,420 --> 00:27:19,190 And I'm also personally maintaining a couple of libraries from those lists. 503 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,164 So the technology is also catching up with it. 504 00:27:22,415 --> 00:27:25,605 Lawil: Cause we kind of like covered some of the points of web monetization, which 505 00:27:25,605 --> 00:27:30,875 is part of your ambassadorship to talk about it, promote it, support interested 506 00:27:30,875 --> 00:27:33,615 people into jumping onto the bandwagon. 507 00:27:33,685 --> 00:27:37,354 You recently went to FOSS Asia for the intellectual foundation to give 508 00:27:37,354 --> 00:27:39,125 a presentation on web monetization. 509 00:27:39,355 --> 00:27:42,915 Could you dive a little bit deeper about that, about what was the 510 00:27:42,915 --> 00:27:44,465 theme precisely in web monetization? 511 00:27:44,465 --> 00:27:48,185 Was it a presentation where I get to know web monetization or did you dive a bit 512 00:27:48,185 --> 00:27:50,275 deeper into the developer's aspect of it? 513 00:27:50,465 --> 00:27:50,835 Santosh: Sure. 514 00:27:50,925 --> 00:27:55,255 So I was presenting web monetization more from the technical perspective. 515 00:27:55,675 --> 00:27:59,425 Like web monetization, a friendly JavaScript API that you could 516 00:27:59,425 --> 00:28:01,764 implement to monetize your web content. 517 00:28:02,235 --> 00:28:04,145 That was the title of my talk. 518 00:28:04,294 --> 00:28:08,445 I was talking about the current challenges in the monetization space on the web. 519 00:28:08,845 --> 00:28:11,295 Like how people are monetizing their content right now. 520 00:28:11,325 --> 00:28:14,864 It could be through ads, it could be through subscription, affiliate links. 521 00:28:15,354 --> 00:28:17,955 And what are the pain points that are involved with the 522 00:28:17,955 --> 00:28:19,584 current monetization schemes? 523 00:28:19,855 --> 00:28:22,585 For example, ads, they spoil the experience. 524 00:28:22,815 --> 00:28:25,875 There are platforms like Medium where you can't make money, but you 525 00:28:25,875 --> 00:28:27,495 can pay them to read their content. 526 00:28:27,834 --> 00:28:31,284 I was talking about those pain points and I was also talking about possible 527 00:28:31,294 --> 00:28:35,675 solutions and web monetization as a possible solution for it. 528 00:28:36,165 --> 00:28:41,345 And I spoke about how easy is it for a developer to web monetize a website, 529 00:28:41,445 --> 00:28:45,385 how he can add a valid address to the website and how he can make his website. 530 00:28:45,610 --> 00:28:47,450 Web monetization ready and feature ready. 531 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,520 I also spoke about what the future holds for them and how they can get 532 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:56,550 involved with the web monetization standard before we have the extension. 533 00:28:56,550 --> 00:28:59,660 So that was the overview of my talk at the conference. 534 00:29:00,450 --> 00:29:03,220 It was a completely new thing for everyone. 535 00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:08,380 I had a couple of questions, but it was about like, the first thing was the 536 00:29:08,380 --> 00:29:13,240 scary question, like, what if Google blocks the standard because they own the 537 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,900 largest browser share on the internet? 538 00:29:16,119 --> 00:29:17,699 What if they block the extension? 539 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,399 That was one of the discussion that I had with people. 540 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,200 And the other one was, I'm still a student and we are still students. 541 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:25,750 We don't want to pay for the content. 542 00:29:25,750 --> 00:29:28,560 So how we can enjoy a good experience without paying for content. 543 00:29:29,345 --> 00:29:32,275 These are some interesting discussions I had with people over there. 544 00:29:32,565 --> 00:29:35,085 Lawil: But it does highlight the theme around it, I do believe. 545 00:29:35,115 --> 00:29:38,005 I mean, the fear of one of the big three, I call them big three, I 546 00:29:38,005 --> 00:29:40,854 don't know if they're three, but like the larger tech companies blocking 547 00:29:40,854 --> 00:29:44,024 technology because it's a known practice. 548 00:29:44,024 --> 00:29:44,414 Santosh: True. 549 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,550 Lawil: Of course, it's quite amazing because this is then still open 550 00:29:47,550 --> 00:29:50,090 source technology, but then the question is, where will it be adopted? 551 00:29:50,540 --> 00:29:51,380 So it's a real theme. 552 00:29:51,390 --> 00:29:53,280 It's something we should account for it. 553 00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:56,030 Santosh: I think everyone is sold out on the tech part. 554 00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:00,750 Like everyone is like give a thumbs up on the tech part, but they are 555 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,590 still worried about the complications and other things that might come 556 00:30:04,590 --> 00:30:07,110 along with both the payments. 557 00:30:07,330 --> 00:30:11,160 And with also the big tech, because you are going to make them irrelevant 558 00:30:11,300 --> 00:30:12,650 with this new web standard. 559 00:30:12,650 --> 00:30:18,229 It is not about providing an alternative solution for the people who cannot 560 00:30:18,230 --> 00:30:20,439 be benefited from those technologies. 561 00:30:20,439 --> 00:30:24,530 For example, if I have a YouTube channel, if I want to make money. 562 00:30:24,955 --> 00:30:30,025 There has to be a minimum user base, there has to be a minimum number of 563 00:30:30,035 --> 00:30:34,085 views, all this kind of requirement that are being said by YouTube. 564 00:30:34,435 --> 00:30:38,844 For example, if I have like 100 people who are actively listening to my podcast, 565 00:30:39,355 --> 00:30:40,785 I should be making money from it. 566 00:30:40,815 --> 00:30:44,215 Not like if I have like 10, 000 subscribers, but only 50 or 567 00:30:44,215 --> 00:30:45,625 100 people are listening to it. 568 00:30:46,115 --> 00:30:49,565 They can make the money, but a person who has like 100 active 569 00:30:49,595 --> 00:30:51,055 subscribers cannot make money. 570 00:30:51,634 --> 00:30:56,405 I think web monetization is a way to Open the doors for those people. 571 00:30:56,775 --> 00:31:01,095 So even if you have one or two active users, you're not going to make 572 00:31:01,095 --> 00:31:04,185 a living out of web monetization, but you will still be paid for the 573 00:31:04,214 --> 00:31:05,515 effort that you're putting in it. 574 00:31:05,544 --> 00:31:09,754 And people will be able to consciously pay for the content they are viewing. 575 00:31:10,250 --> 00:31:10,660 Lawil: I agree. 576 00:31:10,660 --> 00:31:13,380 I also believe that's what it's meant for, to be honest. 577 00:31:13,500 --> 00:31:16,850 That's something that also surprises me about the current monetization 578 00:31:16,850 --> 00:31:20,540 models is the fact that you need to reach an influencer status before 579 00:31:20,540 --> 00:31:22,260 you can actually monetize anything. 580 00:31:23,010 --> 00:31:27,850 And then the question mark, especially because the platforms are earning from 581 00:31:27,850 --> 00:31:32,380 your content and your participation, there's a large question mark behind it. 582 00:31:32,730 --> 00:31:35,350 So I do agree with that, that the smaller consumers. 583 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,270 So these are all very good points. 584 00:31:38,290 --> 00:31:38,960 Amazing points. 585 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:39,390 And so. 586 00:31:40,005 --> 00:31:42,965 How can people get involved with the weaponization or the 587 00:31:42,965 --> 00:31:44,525 Interledger ecosystem in general? 588 00:31:44,615 --> 00:31:47,465 Like are there specific steps, resources, or communities they should 589 00:31:47,465 --> 00:31:49,625 explore to contribute or learn more? 590 00:31:49,925 --> 00:31:53,675 Santosh: Yes, there are a lot of programs, and Interledger is an open source 591 00:31:53,675 --> 00:31:56,045 organization, so all the repositories. 592 00:31:56,465 --> 00:32:00,385 And all the products that Interledger is working on are open source. 593 00:32:00,725 --> 00:32:02,225 So if you go to github. 594 00:32:02,245 --> 00:32:07,884 com slash Interledger, you'll find all the open source projects at Interledger there. 595 00:32:07,885 --> 00:32:11,215 If you are a tech person, you can find the issues that are mentioned 596 00:32:11,225 --> 00:32:15,095 like good first perks or help needed, and you can pick them and work on it. 597 00:32:15,425 --> 00:32:18,445 And if you are a non tech person and wants to help with documentation, 598 00:32:18,445 --> 00:32:21,025 or if you want to help and get involved with the discussion. 599 00:32:21,395 --> 00:32:23,045 They are also available on the same GitHub. 600 00:32:23,935 --> 00:32:28,695 There are some pages on our websites that are in progress, but even 601 00:32:28,705 --> 00:32:31,764 there, you will find good amount of information about how you can get 602 00:32:31,765 --> 00:32:34,044 involved with the interledger community. 603 00:32:34,465 --> 00:32:36,075 The websites are interledger. 604 00:32:36,104 --> 00:32:36,274 org. 605 00:32:37,165 --> 00:32:39,935 And you will find a Get Involved page on the website. 606 00:32:40,415 --> 00:32:43,845 And that is one way to get started with getting involved with IntelliJ. 607 00:32:44,175 --> 00:32:48,474 I think until there is a clear pathway visible on the website, you can join 608 00:32:48,545 --> 00:32:54,295 Slack, IntelliJ Slack, and find the project that you love, talk to people, and 609 00:32:54,295 --> 00:32:58,155 join the project, and get involved with the discussion, join the community calls. 610 00:32:58,585 --> 00:33:00,805 I think there is no one answer. 611 00:33:00,925 --> 00:33:03,904 There are a lot of ways, depending on how you want to get involved. 612 00:33:04,235 --> 00:33:06,555 You will find your way once you join the Slack channel. 613 00:33:07,195 --> 00:33:09,755 Lawil: To prepare you a little bit, because this one is slightly different 614 00:33:09,815 --> 00:33:13,405 than what we've discussed previously, but it ties back to one of your first, 615 00:33:13,465 --> 00:33:17,905 uh, one of the first questions I've asked you, if you could imagine a financially 616 00:33:18,085 --> 00:33:22,615 equitable future, what would it look like for you and how, and what do you 617 00:33:22,615 --> 00:33:24,364 envision the future of digital finance? 618 00:33:24,620 --> 00:33:28,020 Santosh: I mentioned some examples over the past few minutes. 619 00:33:28,270 --> 00:33:32,940 One is like about the vegetable seller who started to build an habit of saving. 620 00:33:33,599 --> 00:33:37,070 I think digital finance will open up new opportunities and new financial 621 00:33:37,070 --> 00:33:41,699 knowledge to make themselves sufficient and also to get better knowledge of the 622 00:33:41,700 --> 00:33:46,270 financial systems working, which will in turn help them to plan their future 623 00:33:46,810 --> 00:33:51,620 or maybe learn about investments or learn about how to grow their business. 624 00:33:51,630 --> 00:33:55,020 So all this starts with digital inclusion and digital finance itself. 625 00:33:55,595 --> 00:33:58,955 And like I told you, it will also help you to build a better score 626 00:33:59,095 --> 00:34:01,065 and open up a lot of opportunities. 627 00:34:01,585 --> 00:34:06,205 I also spoke about how the financial systems and including everyone in 628 00:34:06,214 --> 00:34:10,555 the existing financial systems have reduced corruption in the governments. 629 00:34:11,005 --> 00:34:14,054 And it will also open up global opportunities. 630 00:34:14,135 --> 00:34:17,885 I think opportunities stand on the top most for me because both 631 00:34:17,915 --> 00:34:22,915 digital and financial inclusion are a way to Get yourself educated. 632 00:34:23,425 --> 00:34:26,945 The opportunities are there because there was a study where 80 percent of 633 00:34:26,965 --> 00:34:29,195 the job postings right now are digital. 634 00:34:29,195 --> 00:34:31,445 No one is posting them on newspapers anymore. 635 00:34:31,935 --> 00:34:36,905 So if you want to have that 80 percent of opportunities, you have to get 636 00:34:36,905 --> 00:34:41,365 yourself educated and learn how to be inclusive in those digital platforms. 637 00:34:41,375 --> 00:34:44,695 And also the platform should keep this in mind when they 638 00:34:44,695 --> 00:34:46,075 are building those platforms. 639 00:34:46,075 --> 00:34:50,985 So everyone can be included in the systems and everyone can avail the opportunities 640 00:34:51,214 --> 00:34:52,415 that they are going to provide. 641 00:34:53,235 --> 00:34:56,425 Lawil: You've shared a lot of thoughtful examples and pathways for consideration. 642 00:34:56,665 --> 00:34:59,605 What I'm hearing is that moving towards a digital or cashless society 643 00:34:59,605 --> 00:35:03,224 has potential to include more people, which is a powerful vision as well. 644 00:35:03,605 --> 00:35:05,965 I found it particularly interesting when you mentioned corruption as it 645 00:35:05,985 --> 00:35:09,814 ties back to one of the key reasons why ledger based technologies were developed. 646 00:35:10,460 --> 00:35:13,930 It also reminded me of your point about the intellectual protocol and its 647 00:35:13,930 --> 00:35:17,610 focus on interoperability as a solution to foster connection and inclusion. 648 00:35:17,930 --> 00:35:22,039 Looking ahead, diving a bit deeper, do you believe that in 50 years, 649 00:35:22,090 --> 00:35:26,400 interoperability and connectivity will be at the core of the financial system? 650 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:31,550 Could we be breaking down barriers, not just financial or banking 651 00:35:31,550 --> 00:35:35,900 barriers, but even country borders to be the ultimate solution for 652 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:37,560 global participation and inclusion? 653 00:35:37,980 --> 00:35:39,450 So now I'm dreaming a little bit. 654 00:35:39,860 --> 00:35:40,720 Santosh: Absolutely. 655 00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:42,440 I think that's quite possible. 656 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:47,190 I've seen that happening in India, like with UPI, all the payment system, all 657 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,610 the banks, irrespective of their status, it might be a small finance bank or 658 00:35:50,610 --> 00:35:52,690 it might be the largest bank in India. 659 00:35:52,710 --> 00:35:55,614 Everyone has adopted a standard that is working well for them. 660 00:35:56,145 --> 00:35:59,765 I'm pretty sure that there are going to be a lot of challenges, a lot 661 00:35:59,805 --> 00:36:05,125 of, uh, complications when the same interoperability happens with cross 662 00:36:05,125 --> 00:36:06,924 border like between different countries. 663 00:36:07,405 --> 00:36:11,984 But I, I don't think it is impossible anymore because the same UPI standard, 664 00:36:11,985 --> 00:36:15,965 I think at least five to 10 countries have started adopting the technology, 665 00:36:16,445 --> 00:36:18,485 which is happening right now with UPI. 666 00:36:18,485 --> 00:36:22,864 I think, uh, with ILP also the same thing could happen and it could 667 00:36:22,875 --> 00:36:25,065 happen at a larger scale as well. 668 00:36:25,665 --> 00:36:29,435 Lawil: Thank you so much for sharing your vision with us and let's 669 00:36:29,435 --> 00:36:31,735 hope this would become a reality. 670 00:36:32,025 --> 00:36:36,245 We've reached the end of our podcast recording, so thank you so much 671 00:36:36,255 --> 00:36:39,485 Santos for being here and being a guest on the Future Money podcast. 672 00:36:40,254 --> 00:36:43,494 We were so happy and also actually quite blessed to have you as an open 673 00:36:43,495 --> 00:36:48,095 source ambassador and of course for you to be part of our community. 674 00:36:48,250 --> 00:36:51,490 So I hope everybody or the listeners will keep track of Santosh, as 675 00:36:51,490 --> 00:36:54,080 he's also a maintainer of one of the weaponization libraries. 676 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:59,390 And of course, what I wanted to say is that we are happy and blessed to 677 00:36:59,390 --> 00:37:00,910 have you as part of our ecosystem. 678 00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:03,670 Thank you, Santosh, for being part of the Future Money podcast. 679 00:37:04,070 --> 00:37:04,550 Santosh: Thank you. 680 00:37:08,860 --> 00:37:12,140 Lawil: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Future Money podcast. 681 00:37:12,605 --> 00:37:14,265 We'll hope you join us for more episodes. 682 00:37:14,375 --> 00:37:17,755 Subscribe and follow us on Cast Apart, Spotify, Apple Music, or 683 00:37:17,755 --> 00:37:19,115 wherever you listen to your pods. 684 00:37:19,435 --> 00:37:21,895 And if you enjoyed the show, we'd love your rating and review. 685 00:37:22,375 --> 00:37:23,525 Thank you for listening.