1 00:00:06,260 --> 00:00:09,239 Lena: Everybody seemed very optimistic about the future of, 2 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:11,700 uh, you know, online payments. 3 00:00:12,099 --> 00:00:16,339 I was surprised, um, because I have to say it's a world I was not familiar with. 4 00:00:16,410 --> 00:00:20,430 And that was, that was the fun aspect about it because I was, I didn't know 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:25,180 much about open payments online and, and talking firsthand with people who do that. 6 00:00:25,494 --> 00:00:28,494 Day in, day out, it opened up a whole new world for me. 7 00:00:28,515 --> 00:00:31,915 And I think also because they were not expecting to see art. 8 00:00:33,675 --> 00:00:38,485 Everybody I spoke to believes that there should be, and that there can be 9 00:00:38,485 --> 00:00:41,214 more equity regarding open payments. 10 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:44,880 It made me also quite optimistic, you know. 11 00:00:51,380 --> 00:00:54,909 Lawil: Welcome to the Future Money Podcast presented by the Interledger Foundation, 12 00:00:54,950 --> 00:00:58,019 where we invite people of all backgrounds and disciplines to imagine what a 13 00:00:58,019 --> 00:00:59,850 financially inclusive future might be. 14 00:01:00,510 --> 00:01:02,880 Hollis: I'm Hollis Wong Ware, a community ambassador with 15 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:04,069 the Interledger Foundation. 16 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,610 Lawil: I am Nawil Karama, program officer at the Interledger Foundation. 17 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,789 In this episode, we're in conversation with Lena Kaninjot, a chef and a food 18 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:14,909 artist currently based in Paris, France. 19 00:01:15,270 --> 00:01:19,429 Lena uses food as a medium for building bridges between people, places, and 20 00:01:19,430 --> 00:01:23,190 various fields of knowledge, as well as between the past and future scenarios. 21 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,190 Hollis: She will share more about what inspired her to work with food. 22 00:01:26,664 --> 00:01:30,035 and about her project, Liminal Matter, her use of materials from 23 00:01:30,035 --> 00:01:34,815 holograms to seeds, and generally how materiality can be used as a tool 24 00:01:34,835 --> 00:01:36,685 for dialogue and community building. 25 00:01:41,414 --> 00:01:43,384 Hey, how you doing? 26 00:01:43,524 --> 00:01:47,834 Hello, Lina, we're so excited to speak with you today, um, and to hear more 27 00:01:47,834 --> 00:01:51,404 about the process of your work, your background as an artist, and your 28 00:01:51,404 --> 00:01:54,534 experience at the Interledger Summit, bringing your piece to life as part 29 00:01:54,534 --> 00:01:56,145 of the Future Money Open Studios. 30 00:01:56,534 --> 00:02:00,064 So tell us about your background and what led you to become a practicing artist. 31 00:02:00,804 --> 00:02:01,895 Lena: So sure. 32 00:02:01,955 --> 00:02:06,945 Um, so my name is Lena, uh, and I work with food as a medium. 33 00:02:07,625 --> 00:02:12,244 So I have a background, uh, in kitchen, so in cooking, and I also have a background 34 00:02:12,245 --> 00:02:16,969 in art history and I'm doing a master's in agroecology, ecology of agriculture. 35 00:02:17,630 --> 00:02:20,400 So that's, you know, my background is threefold and 36 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:21,830 I work with food as a medium. 37 00:02:21,830 --> 00:02:28,520 So I use it as a means for expressing ideas, whether it's my ideas or other 38 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,980 people's ideas, because also receive a lot of creative briefs, but mostly I would 39 00:02:31,980 --> 00:02:36,719 say I use it as a means for connection and a medium to build relationships. 40 00:02:36,770 --> 00:02:41,380 So, you know, when you cook, you alchemize ingredients together, and then 41 00:02:41,390 --> 00:02:43,325 when you Share the food with people. 42 00:02:43,325 --> 00:02:45,454 You alchemize people together. 43 00:02:45,464 --> 00:02:48,654 And I think that's one common point with a work of art, actually. 44 00:02:49,470 --> 00:02:53,829 and also building bridges between people and the ecosystem they live in. 45 00:02:54,260 --> 00:02:57,280 That's how I see my work, building bridges through living matter. 46 00:02:58,029 --> 00:02:59,159 Lawil: That's amazing, actually. 47 00:02:59,169 --> 00:03:02,950 So currently you're based in Paris in France. 48 00:03:02,989 --> 00:03:05,059 Um, it's kind of like returning back home. 49 00:03:05,100 --> 00:03:06,319 Well, you didn't grow up there, right? 50 00:03:06,790 --> 00:03:07,070 I was 51 00:03:07,070 --> 00:03:09,130 Lena: born in Sydney because my parents used to travel a lot. 52 00:03:09,740 --> 00:03:12,280 When we came back to Paris, I was a baby. 53 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,230 And then at the age of eight, I moved to Lyon. 54 00:03:15,380 --> 00:03:19,570 And then I lived in London from the age of 17 to 30. 55 00:03:19,599 --> 00:03:20,540 And then Amsterdam. 56 00:03:20,540 --> 00:03:22,620 But basically I lived in all sorts of different places. 57 00:03:22,659 --> 00:03:26,640 But Paris is the only place that, Always felt like home and it was 58 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:29,370 always the place I kept coming back to. 59 00:03:29,370 --> 00:03:33,000 So it really feels like a homecoming this year for sure. 60 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:33,390 Yeah. 61 00:03:33,810 --> 00:03:34,530 And why is that? 62 00:03:34,829 --> 00:03:35,500 Why? 63 00:03:35,509 --> 00:03:36,190 It's a good question. 64 00:03:36,219 --> 00:03:39,919 I think it's because I spent my early years here from the 65 00:03:39,919 --> 00:03:42,160 age of one till eight or nine. 66 00:03:42,170 --> 00:03:44,400 And I kept on coming back every year because I always kept 67 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,620 friends and, and alive here. 68 00:03:46,630 --> 00:03:51,060 So it's the only city that really feels like home amongst all the places. 69 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,140 where, you know, where I lived. 70 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,269 Hollis: So I guess I'll ask, like, with your background being French and 71 00:03:58,269 --> 00:04:02,889 also Iranian, I'm curious about the relationship between your upbringing 72 00:04:02,899 --> 00:04:07,760 and your, um, cultural background with your interest and passion for food. 73 00:04:08,450 --> 00:04:09,440 Lena: So, of course, both. 74 00:04:09,945 --> 00:04:16,115 French culture and Iranian culture are equally passionate about food and they 75 00:04:16,115 --> 00:04:19,635 take equal pride in their food culture. 76 00:04:20,274 --> 00:04:23,115 Uh, but they have very different approaches to food. 77 00:04:23,995 --> 00:04:28,604 I would say that Iranian food is extreme, just like Iranian culture in 78 00:04:28,604 --> 00:04:31,304 general, extremely layered and intricate. 79 00:04:32,244 --> 00:04:37,864 And I think I'm more of a minimalist person when it 80 00:04:37,864 --> 00:04:39,634 comes to the way I use food. 81 00:04:40,385 --> 00:04:44,935 But what I take from the Iranian side is It's not in the cooking itself, 82 00:04:44,965 --> 00:04:49,035 but in in the creative process, Iranian culture is really big on 83 00:04:49,035 --> 00:04:54,965 poetry and, uh, double entendre, uh, and everything is quite implicit. 84 00:04:55,534 --> 00:04:58,065 And there's a lot of, you know, space to read between the lines. 85 00:04:58,095 --> 00:05:01,235 And I like to take that and use that. 86 00:05:01,789 --> 00:05:03,099 In in my work. 87 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:08,960 And hopefully what I do and what I create is never to be taken at face 88 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:14,119 value and is never so explicit so that the message is entirely clear. 89 00:05:14,340 --> 00:05:15,160 If that makes sense. 90 00:05:15,389 --> 00:05:17,790 So that's what I take from the Iranian culture in general. 91 00:05:18,449 --> 00:05:21,239 And then, of course, just on a more basic level, growing up in France, 92 00:05:21,830 --> 00:05:26,110 You just get used to just quality ingredients and it's just a step. 93 00:05:26,110 --> 00:05:28,970 So it's, it's not, it's not something you have to make a big effort about. 94 00:05:28,970 --> 00:05:31,710 It's something that's being passed on to you, I think, you know, 95 00:05:31,710 --> 00:05:33,079 quite naturally from a young age. 96 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:33,400 So 97 00:05:33,759 --> 00:05:35,809 Lawil: they're both quite passionate, but they have a lot 98 00:05:35,810 --> 00:05:37,230 of sensuality to it as well. 99 00:05:37,555 --> 00:05:38,585 Lena: Definitely. 100 00:05:38,625 --> 00:05:39,275 Definitely. 101 00:05:39,275 --> 00:05:42,365 They're both, um, they both have a love for poetry. 102 00:05:42,365 --> 00:05:44,085 They're both very sensual cultures. 103 00:05:44,085 --> 00:05:47,164 And I'm glad you mentioned that because we forget that about Iranian 104 00:05:47,164 --> 00:05:52,485 culture, but Iranian culture can be very sensual and, and, uh, sensory. 105 00:05:53,285 --> 00:05:56,525 And You know, also quite, uh, quite feminine. 106 00:05:56,565 --> 00:06:00,575 Uh, you know, there's a lot of women artists and women academics 107 00:06:00,575 --> 00:06:02,835 and intellectuals, um, in Iran. 108 00:06:03,425 --> 00:06:06,305 So they do have things in common. 109 00:06:06,315 --> 00:06:09,965 Um, and also in, in terms of language, there's a lot of, uh, 110 00:06:09,965 --> 00:06:13,444 quite a lot of French words in the Farsi language, uh, which people are 111 00:06:13,444 --> 00:06:15,104 always surprised to find out about. 112 00:06:15,804 --> 00:06:23,220 But as for the contrast, I would say That I would have to go down the political 113 00:06:23,220 --> 00:06:25,710 route right now and yeah, I have 114 00:06:25,790 --> 00:06:27,510 Hollis: to, I have to pass. 115 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:32,340 That's totally fair and I think that's the beauty of art, right? 116 00:06:32,389 --> 00:06:36,909 Is that you can bring, whether it's your politics or your perspective or your 117 00:06:36,910 --> 00:06:42,800 philosophies into work and transmute it from the literal spoken into, especially 118 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:47,620 in your example or in the work that you do, the experiential, um, and I think that 119 00:06:47,620 --> 00:06:49,230 was something that I know really drew. 120 00:06:49,435 --> 00:06:52,785 folks to your work initially was just the experiential nature of it, the 121 00:06:53,145 --> 00:06:57,485 inherent connectivity and dialogue and discourse within your work. 122 00:06:57,785 --> 00:07:02,355 I'd love to kind of hear the arc of how you entered into food and kind of 123 00:07:02,355 --> 00:07:08,050 that epiphany that, um, catalyzed your interest in, you know, So I think I 124 00:07:08,050 --> 00:07:09,490 Lena: started working in kitchens. 125 00:07:09,530 --> 00:07:13,940 I was training kitchens and it was a very, very, uh, masculine 126 00:07:13,950 --> 00:07:16,430 and very almost military space. 127 00:07:16,610 --> 00:07:21,900 And deep down, I could feel that that wasn't how I wanted to use food. 128 00:07:21,969 --> 00:07:25,409 It was very, it was a relational process in the sense that that's not 129 00:07:25,409 --> 00:07:28,049 the kind of basis I want to evolve in. 130 00:07:28,099 --> 00:07:30,739 If I want to use food and it's not the kind of people I 131 00:07:30,969 --> 00:07:32,979 want to exchange with as well. 132 00:07:33,010 --> 00:07:38,055 Um, Well, I use food as a medium and while I cook and little by little, I started 133 00:07:38,065 --> 00:07:40,575 doing more and more private events. 134 00:07:41,690 --> 00:07:46,120 And very organically, I started doing more and more conceptual things, uh, 135 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,910 using food because I just realized that, you know, the more I was cooking, the 136 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:56,770 more was, uh, asking questions, you know, to myself about, uh, where the food 137 00:07:56,770 --> 00:08:02,390 actually comes from and what's the best way to eat for everybody to eat well. 138 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,080 And what's the best way to eat for, you know, the, to preserve the environment. 139 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,840 And so the more you cook, the more you use food, the more you ask yourself questions. 140 00:08:10,795 --> 00:08:17,765 And I felt that actually going down a more artistic and or conceptual route was 141 00:08:17,765 --> 00:08:23,815 a good way to ask the right questions, you know, to an audience or to yourself 142 00:08:24,225 --> 00:08:29,705 and, uh, and to sort of play around with food as a medium in order to use 143 00:08:29,715 --> 00:08:35,419 it as a research medium and not just as Uh, means to feed people with something 144 00:08:35,430 --> 00:08:40,929 that looks nice and tastes great, but I was interested in using it in, in a 145 00:08:40,929 --> 00:08:45,670 way that's slightly different and in a way that engages, uh, something beyond 146 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,959 just, uh, you know, just the taste inside and something that also makes 147 00:08:49,959 --> 00:08:54,700 you dream and makes you think and, you know, strike, you know, conversations 148 00:08:54,700 --> 00:08:57,329 about how, you know, what is it? 149 00:08:57,339 --> 00:08:58,160 Is it edible? 150 00:08:58,160 --> 00:08:59,730 And, and, you know, how, how. 151 00:08:59,870 --> 00:09:02,290 And I think that's how things could be as well in the future, because I think 152 00:09:02,290 --> 00:09:08,120 food is, is a means to connect the past tradition with the future was the best way 153 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:10,500 to go forward now with our food system. 154 00:09:11,130 --> 00:09:15,689 So it was a way for me to tackle all of those issues using food. 155 00:09:15,850 --> 00:09:17,589 Yeah, and have fun while doing it. 156 00:09:17,849 --> 00:09:20,000 Hollis: Yeah, I love that notion of play too. 157 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,819 I think oftentimes there's kind of a severity and a gravitas to 158 00:09:24,829 --> 00:09:25,760 Lena: Oh my God. 159 00:09:25,890 --> 00:09:26,629 I mean, yeah. 160 00:09:26,700 --> 00:09:29,640 Please let's talk about that. 161 00:09:29,670 --> 00:09:31,449 They take it so seriously. 162 00:09:32,100 --> 00:09:36,000 Hollis: I understand obviously there's like a importance, right, to work. 163 00:09:36,020 --> 00:09:40,340 But I think also what's lost is the levity is the play and like, 164 00:09:40,340 --> 00:09:41,810 what's possible within play. 165 00:09:41,870 --> 00:09:45,559 And I think oftentimes, and I don't want to project, so would love to hear if this 166 00:09:45,569 --> 00:09:50,050 is authentic to your experience, but like, yeah, especially in the fine food world 167 00:09:50,060 --> 00:09:54,990 and the fine art world, there's a lot of pretension, a lot of self importance, a 168 00:09:54,990 --> 00:10:00,520 lot of seriousness that kind of begets quality or, or, you know, there's 169 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,459 this, yeah, a level in which pretense. 170 00:10:04,275 --> 00:10:07,695 Yeah, pretense, I was about to say like some patriarchal underpinnings 171 00:10:07,705 --> 00:10:11,455 also, as you were mentioning before, the kind of like very male world that 172 00:10:11,455 --> 00:10:13,095 you entered into in the food world. 173 00:10:13,495 --> 00:10:18,244 And what does it look like to convene people and for there to be 174 00:10:18,255 --> 00:10:20,784 actually like joy and light and play? 175 00:10:21,235 --> 00:10:22,444 Lena: Yeah, totally. 176 00:10:22,824 --> 00:10:23,834 No, that's the thing. 177 00:10:23,864 --> 00:10:27,784 I think food is such an interesting medium because everybody relates 178 00:10:27,784 --> 00:10:29,854 to it on a very visceral level. 179 00:10:30,034 --> 00:10:31,684 It's not cognitive. 180 00:10:31,684 --> 00:10:31,734 Yeah. 181 00:10:31,735 --> 00:10:31,749 Yeah. 182 00:10:32,010 --> 00:10:34,080 food, you know, it's very visceral. 183 00:10:34,180 --> 00:10:35,190 You feel it in your guts. 184 00:10:36,140 --> 00:10:39,589 So people relate to it in a way that's very direct and 185 00:10:39,589 --> 00:10:41,309 it connects people instantly. 186 00:10:42,069 --> 00:10:46,499 And you were just mentioning how, you know, uh, you know, the high end world of 187 00:10:46,540 --> 00:10:51,039 both food and art can be, you know, a bit pretentious sometimes and a bit exclusive. 188 00:10:51,849 --> 00:10:54,639 And I think it's interesting because food is the most inclusive thing we 189 00:10:54,639 --> 00:10:56,670 have because we all have that in common. 190 00:10:56,670 --> 00:10:58,649 We all eat and we all love to eat, right? 191 00:10:59,390 --> 00:11:03,070 And so it really connects us at a very deep level. 192 00:11:03,070 --> 00:11:05,579 And for me, it's, it brings me so much joy. 193 00:11:05,579 --> 00:11:11,690 It's very amusing as well to, you know, create a installation for an opening. 194 00:11:12,275 --> 00:11:14,475 or do an installation in an art space. 195 00:11:14,475 --> 00:11:16,594 And it's usually those white cubes, right? 196 00:11:16,594 --> 00:11:20,964 It's very sterile and it's sometimes a bit intimidating as well. 197 00:11:21,624 --> 00:11:26,984 And what I love if I do an installation in those spaces is to see people 198 00:11:27,025 --> 00:11:30,775 straight away, letting that guard down and, you know, starting to 199 00:11:30,784 --> 00:11:34,854 interact with the food and therefore starting to interact with each other. 200 00:11:35,124 --> 00:11:39,035 And so it really becomes like a means for connection, something 201 00:11:39,035 --> 00:11:42,025 that's almost, you know, yeah, playful, almost in a childish way. 202 00:11:42,425 --> 00:11:46,665 I love to use food as a, as a way to, you know, make people just let their 203 00:11:46,665 --> 00:11:49,344 guards down and, and connect with each other in a way that's very innocent. 204 00:11:49,344 --> 00:11:50,859 That's immensely fun to do. 205 00:11:50,859 --> 00:11:51,769 I love that. 206 00:11:51,769 --> 00:11:52,072 So 207 00:11:52,072 --> 00:11:55,406 Hollis: for folks that maybe aren't familiar with your work, can you 208 00:11:55,406 --> 00:11:59,245 kind of describe what, maybe not a typical experience, but kind of the 209 00:11:59,245 --> 00:12:03,390 types of experiences that you, that you bring together that do blend 210 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,140 food, um, and art practice together. 211 00:12:06,140 --> 00:12:07,680 Like, what is your approach? 212 00:12:07,819 --> 00:12:10,270 Just more generally, and then we'll dive into the project 213 00:12:10,270 --> 00:12:11,419 that you did for Future Money. 214 00:12:11,870 --> 00:12:18,010 Lena: So I translate concepts and creative briefs into edible form. 215 00:12:18,540 --> 00:12:22,689 So, uh, it can come from, you know, it can come from a brand, it can come 216 00:12:22,689 --> 00:12:28,589 from a gallery if there's an opening and I would translate the, the concept 217 00:12:28,610 --> 00:12:35,459 or the aesthetics or the values or the impressions of the art that exhibited 218 00:12:36,299 --> 00:12:38,400 at that time into an installation. 219 00:12:39,060 --> 00:12:43,290 If I work with a brand, it will be to reflect a brand identity, 220 00:12:43,430 --> 00:12:48,165 uh, and translate into again, you know, uh, could be canopies 221 00:12:48,195 --> 00:12:50,165 or it could be a curated dinner. 222 00:12:50,665 --> 00:12:55,324 Uh, recently I did, uh, uh, I created a dinner around the 223 00:12:55,334 --> 00:12:57,204 theme of the four elements. 224 00:12:58,024 --> 00:13:00,955 So I was air, water, fire, earth. 225 00:13:01,024 --> 00:13:05,654 And it was for, um, a brand that had something to do with astrology and 226 00:13:05,654 --> 00:13:10,795 astrology being curating a dinner, you know, around the four elements. 227 00:13:10,795 --> 00:13:14,075 So that's, that's the kind of work that I do. 228 00:13:14,665 --> 00:13:19,905 And more rarely I do, uh, I mean, the concept just comes from me and then 229 00:13:19,905 --> 00:13:21,795 it becomes just, uh, just to not work. 230 00:13:21,795 --> 00:13:25,244 So at the moment I'm, I'm working with a friend, uh, around the concept of 231 00:13:25,295 --> 00:13:30,674 seeds and we want to do an installation regarding seeds and people to come in and 232 00:13:30,705 --> 00:13:34,775 like a seeds candy shop and people can come and choose the seeds and then pass 233 00:13:34,905 --> 00:13:37,045 them around and send them to loved ones. 234 00:13:37,345 --> 00:13:43,115 So it's very, very diverse, but yeah, as a summary, I translate ideas and concepts. 235 00:13:43,795 --> 00:13:47,494 Into something that people can eat and taste and sense and play with. 236 00:13:47,744 --> 00:13:47,915 Yep. 237 00:13:47,994 --> 00:13:49,714 Lawil: How do you make these connections? 238 00:13:49,755 --> 00:13:52,425 Like when you said like the food and a brand identity, 239 00:13:52,755 --> 00:13:53,655 how do you come up with that? 240 00:13:54,055 --> 00:13:56,494 Lena: It becomes very intuitive because I've been doing it for so 241 00:13:56,494 --> 00:13:58,185 long that I don't even think anymore. 242 00:13:58,185 --> 00:14:02,544 It's, It happens very fast, but usually I would start the process by looking 243 00:14:02,544 --> 00:14:06,714 at the, the artwork or looking at looking at the visual identity of the 244 00:14:06,714 --> 00:14:09,804 brand and just write some keywords. 245 00:14:10,214 --> 00:14:10,604 You know? 246 00:14:11,150 --> 00:14:15,570 Uh, I don't know, like, uh, you know, a bit dark or a bit playful or colorful. 247 00:14:16,140 --> 00:14:21,819 And then I would sort of like automatically translate it in certain 248 00:14:21,850 --> 00:14:26,499 ingredients or certain visuals and I will put all the pieces together. 249 00:14:26,670 --> 00:14:28,490 But I start with keywords usually. 250 00:14:28,509 --> 00:14:33,175 Like, This year I did an event in Amsterdam in Soho House and it was about 251 00:14:33,895 --> 00:14:38,295 abstract music and I had to translate the concept of abstract music into food. 252 00:14:38,564 --> 00:14:44,054 I've just played the sound and I just wrote the keywords that were emerging 253 00:14:44,125 --> 00:14:48,835 upon hearing the music and then I started associating those keywords with 254 00:14:48,835 --> 00:14:52,275 certain ingredients and certain shapes and forms as well in certain colors. 255 00:14:52,885 --> 00:14:56,455 Lawil: Did you take the same steps for the artwork you've created for the 256 00:14:56,475 --> 00:14:57,735 Future Money Arts and Culture grant? 257 00:14:58,180 --> 00:14:59,370 Lena: Cause then you use barley. 258 00:14:59,650 --> 00:15:00,540 I use barley. 259 00:15:00,580 --> 00:15:01,070 Yes. 260 00:15:01,250 --> 00:15:06,040 And it's funny because I have a notebook with ideas that I want to explore. 261 00:15:07,210 --> 00:15:11,969 And in January this year, there were two main ideas that I wanted to explore 262 00:15:11,969 --> 00:15:15,139 and I decided to explore and I set myself to explore in one way or another. 263 00:15:15,150 --> 00:15:18,134 One of them was grain is the origin of money. 264 00:15:19,175 --> 00:15:24,464 And the other one was blending 3d technology with food. 265 00:15:24,975 --> 00:15:26,204 It was two ideas. 266 00:15:26,204 --> 00:15:29,465 And I was really, really like adamant that I was going to do it somehow. 267 00:15:29,494 --> 00:15:32,354 And then the brief came and I was like, something clicked. 268 00:15:33,234 --> 00:15:35,804 And I was like, well, this is perfect. 269 00:15:37,204 --> 00:15:38,765 I don't know just what to do. 270 00:15:39,095 --> 00:15:42,465 Those were ideas that I've had like a few weeks prior already, you 271 00:15:42,465 --> 00:15:43,985 know, already brewing for a while. 272 00:15:44,305 --> 00:15:44,635 Hollis: Yeah. 273 00:15:44,635 --> 00:15:45,644 And I think this. 274 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:49,450 It starts to blend in that kind of like third aspect of your work, which is your 275 00:15:49,470 --> 00:15:51,420 studies that you're currently doing. 276 00:15:51,420 --> 00:15:52,494 And I'm curious if you could just talk about that. 277 00:15:52,495 --> 00:15:52,803 Yeah. 278 00:15:52,803 --> 00:15:57,425 So let's talk a little bit more about how you're learning and what you're studying 279 00:15:57,425 --> 00:16:00,814 specifically in your master's program, agriculture and ecology, and how that 280 00:16:00,815 --> 00:16:06,095 infuses itself into the work that you were conceptualizing for future money. 281 00:16:06,375 --> 00:16:06,885 Lena: Yeah. 282 00:16:06,885 --> 00:16:09,160 Um, So my master's is in agroecology. 283 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,270 It's called agroecology and sustainable food systems. 284 00:16:12,430 --> 00:16:17,330 So we basically trying to answer the question, how can we feed, you know, 285 00:16:17,330 --> 00:16:23,010 the entirety of the human population in a way that's as equitable as 286 00:16:23,069 --> 00:16:29,330 possible while still making sure that we, we create a hospitable living 287 00:16:29,330 --> 00:16:31,050 environment for all other species. 288 00:16:31,999 --> 00:16:37,510 And, um, for me, it was a very, very natural question to ask having worked 289 00:16:38,130 --> 00:16:39,829 with food for such a long time. 290 00:16:39,829 --> 00:16:42,090 And I can see that resources are not necessarily shared 291 00:16:42,090 --> 00:16:43,290 in a way that's equitable. 292 00:16:43,290 --> 00:16:46,490 And there's a lot of discrepancies and inequities 293 00:16:46,540 --> 00:16:48,270 that really need to be addressed. 294 00:16:49,270 --> 00:16:54,269 So there's a social justice aspect to food, which is there, whether you choose 295 00:16:54,269 --> 00:16:55,900 to do the other way or not, it's there. 296 00:16:55,970 --> 00:16:56,400 Okay. 297 00:16:56,770 --> 00:17:00,715 From the moment you start working with food, It's political, full stop. 298 00:17:01,045 --> 00:17:05,215 So that's why the brief really resonated with me because it's also 299 00:17:05,225 --> 00:17:08,395 about equity and social justice. 300 00:17:08,964 --> 00:17:18,595 And how can we fluidify the exchange of those resources online But of course, 301 00:17:18,615 --> 00:17:23,955 it's only talking about a different medium, in this case, currency, online 302 00:17:23,955 --> 00:17:26,095 currency, something completely immaterial. 303 00:17:26,535 --> 00:17:29,735 And with me, my language would be the language of food, which is 304 00:17:29,735 --> 00:17:30,884 something that's very tangible. 305 00:17:30,884 --> 00:17:32,675 But therefore, I saw an interesting. 306 00:17:33,020 --> 00:17:36,759 Bridge to gap and to explore, uh, in that I was 307 00:17:37,070 --> 00:17:38,139 Hollis: incredibly inspired. 308 00:17:38,409 --> 00:17:41,749 So if you could just share with us the work that you ended up 309 00:17:41,749 --> 00:17:45,769 developing to be displayed at the Future Money Open Studios, um, and 310 00:17:45,769 --> 00:17:50,709 would love for you to walk us through both the composition of the piece. 311 00:17:51,054 --> 00:17:55,955 that you displayed as well as the material that you chose and what it represents. 312 00:17:56,544 --> 00:18:01,725 Lena: So I used barley and obsidian that I displayed on a platform of plexiglass. 313 00:18:02,494 --> 00:18:07,725 And on top of that, I put a hologram projector and the projection 314 00:18:07,725 --> 00:18:10,725 was that of a ancient goddess. 315 00:18:11,845 --> 00:18:15,715 the goddess of agriculture in Mesopotamia, uh, some thousand years 316 00:18:15,715 --> 00:18:23,375 ago and the barley and the obsidian symbolize currency in ancient times 317 00:18:23,574 --> 00:18:25,534 in the Levant, in Mesopotamia. 318 00:18:25,574 --> 00:18:30,895 And the idea was besides the visual aspect, which is, you know, the 319 00:18:30,895 --> 00:18:35,600 Bali is, uh, you know, Gold with the lighting and obsidian is black. 320 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,310 So you have a contrast between gold and black and then you have 321 00:18:38,310 --> 00:18:43,480 this so like spectral, you know, uh, statuettes hoovering over it. 322 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,650 Um, and I, I wanted it to look a bit like a shrine to something very meditative, uh, 323 00:18:48,650 --> 00:18:50,369 and a bit esoteric and a bit mysterious. 324 00:18:51,165 --> 00:18:53,345 And I want people to come in and be like, what is that? 325 00:18:53,455 --> 00:18:54,335 What is this about? 326 00:18:55,125 --> 00:19:01,154 But the idea more explicitly was to retrace the, uh, genesis of currency 327 00:19:01,154 --> 00:19:05,554 from something very tangible and material that comes from the earth. 328 00:19:06,014 --> 00:19:11,415 So grains and, and stones, and therefore something, uh, A bit more democratic 329 00:19:11,415 --> 00:19:17,975 because, you know, more simple to share into currency evolving into something 330 00:19:17,975 --> 00:19:24,084 very immaterial and very abstract and therefore potentially less democratic 331 00:19:24,084 --> 00:19:28,424 because it becomes so abstract that it's almost difficult to grasp. 332 00:19:29,340 --> 00:19:33,510 Uh, you know, you hear about certain sums now being exchanged and you don't even 333 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:35,330 understand what it, what it represents. 334 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:42,070 Also the idea with, with currency being immaterial is that it risks, 335 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:45,189 uh, leaving certain communities behind because not everybody has 336 00:19:45,189 --> 00:19:46,359 the same access to technology. 337 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:50,890 So the idea was to play with the contrast between material and immaterial. 338 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,080 And as the question. 339 00:19:54,485 --> 00:19:56,605 What future do we envision? 340 00:19:56,715 --> 00:19:58,825 How can we best share the planet's resources? 341 00:19:58,845 --> 00:20:02,644 First of all, what's the best way to share the resources and what kind 342 00:20:02,645 --> 00:20:04,205 of future do we want for technology? 343 00:20:04,745 --> 00:20:05,975 How do we envision that future? 344 00:20:05,975 --> 00:20:10,864 How can we ensure that technology remains human, you know, in the future? 345 00:20:11,125 --> 00:20:13,434 Is there a spiritual aspect to technology as well? 346 00:20:13,435 --> 00:20:14,964 That's the question I'm really interested in. 347 00:20:15,194 --> 00:20:18,074 Uh, because if it's spiritual, it's also human at the same time. 348 00:20:18,694 --> 00:20:23,505 That was the idea, the idea behind the genesis of currency from something. 349 00:20:23,845 --> 00:20:27,665 From tangible matter into something really abstract and elusive. 350 00:20:27,784 --> 00:20:29,815 Lawil: Do you believe with any of the conversations you had at 351 00:20:29,815 --> 00:20:33,715 the summit, they could answer the questions you were now posing? 352 00:20:33,965 --> 00:20:36,194 Lena: I had a few conversations about that. 353 00:20:36,865 --> 00:20:42,565 And I have to say that everybody seemed very optimistic about the future 354 00:20:42,595 --> 00:20:45,394 of, uh, you know, online payments. 355 00:20:45,735 --> 00:20:49,985 I was surprised, um, because I have to say it's a world I was not familiar with. 356 00:20:50,045 --> 00:20:53,845 And that was, that was the fun aspect about it because I was, you know, 357 00:20:54,534 --> 00:20:58,735 I, I didn't know much about open payments online and, and talking 358 00:20:58,735 --> 00:21:00,295 firsthand with people who do that. 359 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:01,620 day in day out. 360 00:21:02,140 --> 00:21:04,750 It was, uh, it opened up a whole new world for me. 361 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:09,580 And I think also because they were not expecting to see art at the convention. 362 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:14,959 It was, it was a bit of a interesting, you know, meeting of people who shouldn't 363 00:21:14,990 --> 00:21:18,119 be exchanging, but hey, here we are having conversations about the same 364 00:21:18,249 --> 00:21:21,540 subject using a different language, but we're talking about the same thing. 365 00:21:22,124 --> 00:21:25,284 And, uh, I thought that was really just super cool. 366 00:21:25,745 --> 00:21:32,544 And in terms of answering that question, what everybody I spoke to believes that 367 00:21:32,874 --> 00:21:37,134 there should be, and that there can be more equity regarding open payments. 368 00:21:37,685 --> 00:21:40,764 Everybody I spoke to really believe that because that's what they do. 369 00:21:40,764 --> 00:21:43,655 That's what they're working on and they're seeing results. 370 00:21:43,965 --> 00:21:46,055 you know, what I saw from a day shared. 371 00:21:46,665 --> 00:21:48,945 It made me also quite optimistic, you know, 372 00:21:49,455 --> 00:21:51,735 Lawil: does it then also inspire you to, cause I know you're 373 00:21:51,735 --> 00:21:53,925 continuing right now with essays. 374 00:21:53,964 --> 00:21:54,374 Lena: Yeah. 375 00:21:54,665 --> 00:21:56,064 I wanted to write about that. 376 00:21:56,754 --> 00:22:04,159 And I also, I was also really interested in the fact again, that Two different 377 00:22:04,169 --> 00:22:08,669 types of communities, you know, artists and technologists, would you call them? 378 00:22:09,509 --> 00:22:13,919 Meet in a space where, you know, maybe they're not, they're not 379 00:22:13,919 --> 00:22:15,239 really expecting to meet each other. 380 00:22:15,239 --> 00:22:17,399 They're not really expecting to have the sort of conversations 381 00:22:17,399 --> 00:22:19,909 and the innocence that it creates. 382 00:22:19,939 --> 00:22:23,289 And I think for us as artists, I don't know what, what the other 383 00:22:23,370 --> 00:22:25,949 artists thought, but it was. 384 00:22:26,444 --> 00:22:29,874 almost even better because people enter the space with a kind of 385 00:22:29,995 --> 00:22:36,104 innocence that makes for a very open reception of what they see. 386 00:22:36,104 --> 00:22:40,054 And I think that's why we had such, you know, interesting conversations and 387 00:22:40,324 --> 00:22:42,384 really heartfelt reactions from people. 388 00:22:42,965 --> 00:22:46,629 And for me, this mode of, you know, the audience is not there for that. 389 00:22:47,050 --> 00:22:49,820 That was such an interesting, interesting thing at the summit for me. 390 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:55,519 Um, so in, in the essay, I'm, I'm discussing that and yes, also I'm touching 391 00:22:55,519 --> 00:23:00,129 upon this whole new world for me of equity and social justice within the 392 00:23:00,129 --> 00:23:04,879 world of technology and which, to which I can draw a parallel with, you know, 393 00:23:04,909 --> 00:23:08,430 equity and social justice in the world of food, which I know a lot more about. 394 00:23:08,470 --> 00:23:10,470 And I know a lot of people who are involved in that. 395 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,249 It's a very interesting subject for me to, to develop after this experience. 396 00:23:15,199 --> 00:23:20,270 Hollis: You came to the summit to present your work with like a 397 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,550 certain set of ideals and principles. 398 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:29,730 And like, how did the summit like inform or like better kind of advance those 399 00:23:30,249 --> 00:23:32,389 concepts or challenge them in any way. 400 00:23:32,929 --> 00:23:37,750 Lena: I think being at the summit and exchanging with everyone there, 401 00:23:38,090 --> 00:23:42,300 I realized something I didn't know and is that technology can actually 402 00:23:42,329 --> 00:23:46,209 be used if it's put in the right hands of the right people, it 403 00:23:46,209 --> 00:23:48,629 can be used as a tool for equity. 404 00:23:49,070 --> 00:23:56,650 And that was a whole new world for me because I have to say I wasn't very 405 00:23:56,650 --> 00:24:00,070 optimistic in the sense that, you know, here, for instance, in Paris, we have 406 00:24:00,230 --> 00:24:03,130 a lot of homelessness and we have this whole debate, you know, everybody's 407 00:24:03,130 --> 00:24:07,550 paying, you know, with card now, uh, and very few people have changed on them. 408 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,550 And I actually always make sure that I have changed with me because 409 00:24:10,550 --> 00:24:11,809 there's always someone who needs it. 410 00:24:12,299 --> 00:24:17,790 I had this idea and I wasn't this impression that a transition as 411 00:24:17,790 --> 00:24:22,505 fast as it's happening as well towards, uh, you know, immaterial 412 00:24:22,505 --> 00:24:25,285 currency was definitely something. 413 00:24:25,285 --> 00:24:27,555 And I still think it's something that should go slower. 414 00:24:28,155 --> 00:24:33,305 Uh, so we can actually understand what we're doing as we're doing it, but being 415 00:24:33,305 --> 00:24:40,044 at the summit and hearing, you know, case studies and concrete examples of people 416 00:24:40,065 --> 00:24:43,624 looking for solutions to use technology. 417 00:24:43,925 --> 00:24:50,715 As a really a tool for more equitable, you know, financial exchanges that was new to 418 00:24:50,715 --> 00:24:55,095 me, but, you know, I didn't like with the installation that I made, I wasn't really 419 00:24:55,135 --> 00:25:00,754 making a stand as in, you know, it's good or it's bad because I'm never sure. 420 00:25:01,510 --> 00:25:05,820 Whether something is really good or really bad, and I'm not there to say I'm 421 00:25:05,820 --> 00:25:09,850 not, I don't see myself as an activist and I'm not really there to say, this 422 00:25:09,850 --> 00:25:14,350 is the way I'm interested in asking questions, you know, and with this 423 00:25:14,350 --> 00:25:16,049 installation, that's what I wanted to do. 424 00:25:16,049 --> 00:25:19,959 I wanted to ask questions, you know, how can we best share resources and what 425 00:25:19,959 --> 00:25:21,879 kind of technological future do we want? 426 00:25:21,879 --> 00:25:24,279 And how do we envision technology in the future? 427 00:25:24,725 --> 00:25:28,065 Um, so I have to say I did go there with a pretty open mind to start 428 00:25:28,065 --> 00:25:29,665 with, but I was still surprised. 429 00:25:30,155 --> 00:25:35,004 Hollis: I know that this project or this art piece that you exhibited at the Future 430 00:25:35,004 --> 00:25:42,644 Money Open Studios was your first art piece that wasn't like a food experience. 431 00:25:42,715 --> 00:25:50,514 And it was more of a traditional kind of sculpture work. 432 00:25:50,895 --> 00:25:55,544 Um, and so I'm curious about just what the experience of as a, as a 433 00:25:55,545 --> 00:26:00,154 practicing artist of entering in being part of the future money artist 434 00:26:00,185 --> 00:26:05,134 cohort, um, how it advances your own thinking around your art practice. 435 00:26:05,355 --> 00:26:07,645 Um, and the themes that you bring into your work, 436 00:26:08,064 --> 00:26:13,125 Lena: there's a permanency that was interesting for me to experience with 437 00:26:13,125 --> 00:26:17,335 this installation, because usually if I do an installation, uh, it's temporary. 438 00:26:17,344 --> 00:26:23,565 It, it lasts for a few hours and it's almost like a performance in 439 00:26:23,565 --> 00:26:26,285 the sense that I set up the stage. 440 00:26:26,515 --> 00:26:30,504 Whether it's a dinner or whether it's an installation, but I'm not performing. 441 00:26:30,725 --> 00:26:32,385 The guests are performing. 442 00:26:32,554 --> 00:26:35,804 It's always, you know, improvisation because I'd never know what's going to 443 00:26:35,815 --> 00:26:37,235 happen, how they're going to interact. 444 00:26:37,235 --> 00:26:41,315 And, um, so there's a performance aspect to, to that, which goes 445 00:26:41,315 --> 00:26:44,444 with, with the fact that it's immediate, uh, and, and temporary. 446 00:26:45,230 --> 00:26:47,990 And here it was permanent. 447 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,120 So it was there for three days. 448 00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:51,650 It could have been there for a whole year. 449 00:26:52,350 --> 00:26:56,780 So the relationship to time was different and it was a lot slower. 450 00:26:57,370 --> 00:27:03,070 And actually it was great because It was almost, you know, something meditative 451 00:27:03,070 --> 00:27:06,510 about it, which was perfect because I wanted my piece to be very meditative, 452 00:27:07,030 --> 00:27:11,889 almost like a shrine and, you know, silent and, and in the dark and something that 453 00:27:11,889 --> 00:27:15,610 you observe from a distance and you wonder what it is and you know, you can't touch 454 00:27:15,610 --> 00:27:19,540 it because you can't touch the hologram projector because, you know, health 455 00:27:19,540 --> 00:27:20,750 and safety is actually quite dangerous. 456 00:27:20,790 --> 00:27:24,410 So, uh, almost like you keep a respectful distance. 457 00:27:24,725 --> 00:27:29,135 So it was completely different, you know, than, than what I'm used to doing, 458 00:27:29,754 --> 00:27:33,695 but it was very interesting because I, I felt like it really fits the work and 459 00:27:33,725 --> 00:27:35,274 what I was trying to convey with it. 460 00:27:35,854 --> 00:27:41,125 I have to say, I wish, but it wasn't possible for logistics reasons, 461 00:27:41,584 --> 00:27:47,379 but I wish I could have At the end, take the barley, cook it, make 462 00:27:47,379 --> 00:27:49,129 a community dinner and share it. 463 00:27:49,460 --> 00:27:53,320 And that would have been the performance aspect to round it off. 464 00:27:53,629 --> 00:27:58,969 And that would have, you know, um, illustrated further the point that 465 00:27:58,969 --> 00:28:01,719 I was trying to make about sharing the resources, you know, sharing 466 00:28:01,729 --> 00:28:03,409 resources in an equitable way. 467 00:28:03,749 --> 00:28:05,949 It would have been the perfect ending to it, but we couldn't 468 00:28:05,949 --> 00:28:07,330 for logistic, logistical reasons. 469 00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:07,780 Yeah. 470 00:28:08,290 --> 00:28:09,649 But that would have been fantastic. 471 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,570 So I want to go further with that and do something that people can interact with. 472 00:28:13,730 --> 00:28:16,810 Cause this one was like a, it was like a shrine and, you know, sometimes you 473 00:28:16,810 --> 00:28:18,509 can't touch and just look and you just. 474 00:28:19,420 --> 00:28:22,350 Reflect once you actually set everything up. 475 00:28:22,350 --> 00:28:23,550 Did it feel as a shrine for you? 476 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:25,080 Yes, it did. 477 00:28:25,910 --> 00:28:31,020 The way people reacted to it as well, it was very interesting because, I 478 00:28:31,025 --> 00:28:34,620 don't know, they, they, they were just wondering what it was, you know? 479 00:28:34,620 --> 00:28:37,740 And they were, I was observing them and they were just looking 480 00:28:37,745 --> 00:28:39,390 at each other, what, what is that? 481 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,590 Because it is quite surprising and, you know, visually quite striking. 482 00:28:43,890 --> 00:28:46,800 Mm-Hmm, to me, it, it did really look like a strange, the fact that it was, you know, 483 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,015 in the dark and the room was quite silent. 484 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:55,139 And people would enter the room with, you know, it was a very, it 485 00:28:55,139 --> 00:28:57,299 was a very chill energy in the room. 486 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,110 Basically, I wanted it to look like a, like spectral. 487 00:29:00,580 --> 00:29:03,559 And the fact that it was just at the entrance as well, I think it 488 00:29:03,569 --> 00:29:06,759 was a, it was a good timing to sort of like open, open with that. 489 00:29:07,359 --> 00:29:08,579 How big was the piece? 490 00:29:08,739 --> 00:29:11,799 The platform itself was one meter by one meter. 491 00:29:12,389 --> 00:29:16,804 Um, but the space was probably 150 by 150. 492 00:29:17,114 --> 00:29:21,165 And there was, um, uh, black curtains all around. 493 00:29:21,175 --> 00:29:25,465 So it was very dark, you know, uh, it was like in this dark 494 00:29:25,465 --> 00:29:27,845 sort of, um, yeah, shrine. 495 00:29:28,365 --> 00:29:33,975 And, uh, the only sources of light were the hologram projector, the 3d statuettes. 496 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,710 And some, uh, some yellow light that we used for, for the Bali to 497 00:29:38,710 --> 00:29:40,330 make it look like it was glowing. 498 00:29:40,950 --> 00:29:43,760 Hollis: To me, there's kind of connotes, uh, element and 499 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,550 there's an explicit element essentially of spirituality, right? 500 00:29:46,550 --> 00:29:50,979 With the deity that you, that you demonstrated through the hologram 501 00:29:51,419 --> 00:29:53,523 and yeah, I'm wondering like, Yeah. 502 00:29:53,523 --> 00:29:53,634 Yeah. 503 00:29:53,634 --> 00:29:53,746 Yeah. 504 00:29:54,765 --> 00:30:02,145 With that overlay of spirituality, spiritual practice, like how, because 505 00:30:02,145 --> 00:30:07,075 that's an unusual element to bring into conversations about money and economies 506 00:30:07,385 --> 00:30:10,945 and even financial inclusion, which is what we're walking our way up into. 507 00:30:11,505 --> 00:30:14,895 Um, so I'm curious, like, obviously there was an intention behind that, 508 00:30:14,895 --> 00:30:19,285 but if there's anything more you'd want to share about that element. 509 00:30:19,375 --> 00:30:19,735 Mm hmm. 510 00:30:19,905 --> 00:30:24,285 of spiritual practice, which oftentimes is absent from these dialogues 511 00:30:24,285 --> 00:30:26,285 about currency, money, economies. 512 00:30:26,815 --> 00:30:32,145 Lena: I think, um, perhaps it has to do with values. 513 00:30:32,675 --> 00:30:36,415 Because for me, if we speak, if we talk about spirituality, we, we 514 00:30:36,445 --> 00:30:39,080 talk about, You know, the human. 515 00:30:39,780 --> 00:30:46,670 And for me, it was about bringing a human aspect to money and currency, 516 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,240 you know, and, and to technology, which are two entities, which 517 00:30:51,260 --> 00:30:53,710 are usually seen as quite cold. 518 00:30:54,440 --> 00:31:01,660 You know, lacking humanity, lacking tangibility, lacking warmth, and 519 00:31:01,670 --> 00:31:09,160 bringing a human slash spiritual, because for me, they go together, aspect 520 00:31:09,220 --> 00:31:15,780 to those two entities is very juicy and um, and I think very relevant. 521 00:31:16,230 --> 00:31:18,350 Because then you can ask the right questions. 522 00:31:20,100 --> 00:31:23,710 You know, what kind of values do we want to infuse technology with? 523 00:31:23,710 --> 00:31:27,760 And what kind of values do we want to infuse financial systems with? 524 00:31:28,340 --> 00:31:32,080 So it was more to enter that reflective space. 525 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,920 to, you know, consider those questions. 526 00:31:35,190 --> 00:31:38,280 Lawil: With that in mind, though, because I'm thinking about the future, 527 00:31:38,780 --> 00:31:41,530 like with all of these value system and your value system, especially what 528 00:31:41,530 --> 00:31:44,440 you incorporate then in your artwork, because I do believe that the materials 529 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,700 that you used are based on your values. 530 00:31:46,730 --> 00:31:50,750 Of course, this is just that you make, how would you envision 531 00:31:51,110 --> 00:31:52,700 the finance of the future? 532 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:59,000 Lena: I mean, obviously facilitating access to technology that's inevitable 533 00:31:59,060 --> 00:32:05,075 because Because the transition from a tangible currency to abstract currency, 534 00:32:05,075 --> 00:32:07,105 as I like to call it, is, is inevitable. 535 00:32:07,845 --> 00:32:09,785 Facilitating access to technology. 536 00:32:10,505 --> 00:32:14,945 Besides that, I would say I'm still a little bit old school in the sense that I 537 00:32:14,945 --> 00:32:22,275 do think that we still should be given the choice to of using immaterial ways to pay 538 00:32:22,275 --> 00:32:25,635 or using, uh, you know, coins and notes. 539 00:32:25,675 --> 00:32:30,385 I still, it's important to still have the choice in the future if 540 00:32:30,385 --> 00:32:32,495 you want to use a physical money. 541 00:32:33,185 --> 00:32:38,325 I, but I do think that our systems are so complex now that we go 542 00:32:38,325 --> 00:32:41,515 back to a simple barter system. 543 00:32:42,095 --> 00:32:47,400 So, but in terms of sharing resources, in a way that's equitable. 544 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,310 I mean, for me, I have to think about, about food straight away. 545 00:32:52,630 --> 00:32:59,140 And for me, it seems that there's a lot of Superficial, you know, 546 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,820 objects that were being offered and proposed with at all time. 547 00:33:02,870 --> 00:33:07,960 And I just want to quote, uh, someone that I really admire. 548 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:09,910 And he's an artist who works with food as well. 549 00:33:09,910 --> 00:33:13,170 And his name is, I mean, he goes by the name of fermental health. 550 00:33:13,860 --> 00:33:16,870 Uh, and he says, we don't need any more stuff. 551 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,630 We need food, soil and housing. 552 00:33:20,050 --> 00:33:22,020 And for me, this little like back to basics. 553 00:33:22,315 --> 00:33:27,155 Uh, mindsets is very important if you want to move in the right direction 554 00:33:27,615 --> 00:33:32,135 and, you know, money and technology within that equation should really, 555 00:33:32,445 --> 00:33:36,675 you know, remain tools and facilitators in that direction, as opposed to 556 00:33:36,675 --> 00:33:39,495 just take over as, you know, masters. 557 00:33:39,850 --> 00:33:41,070 Technology is not the master. 558 00:33:41,100 --> 00:33:42,140 Money is not the master. 559 00:33:42,450 --> 00:33:43,730 They have their place. 560 00:33:43,740 --> 00:33:49,980 They're essential, but they are tools for whatever else is more important or 561 00:33:50,060 --> 00:33:54,340 whatever else is important for, for human society to function in a way that's, 562 00:33:54,780 --> 00:33:59,470 you know, peaceful and fluid and, uh, performs best for everybody involved. 563 00:34:00,930 --> 00:34:01,420 Completely 564 00:34:01,420 --> 00:34:02,040 Lawil: agree with that. 565 00:34:03,895 --> 00:34:07,055 Lena: Yeah, so I wouldn't say of course it's not because some people I mean, 566 00:34:07,075 --> 00:34:10,525 this is just informal chat to you now But you know, our money is good. 567 00:34:10,525 --> 00:34:11,055 Money is bad. 568 00:34:11,055 --> 00:34:11,725 Technology is good. 569 00:34:11,945 --> 00:34:12,455 Technology is bad. 570 00:34:12,485 --> 00:34:15,375 It's not that It's it's how we use them. 571 00:34:15,555 --> 00:34:21,055 It's how we use them and As soon as we use them mindfully as tools 572 00:34:21,285 --> 00:34:25,975 for bigger values Then they can be of tremendous help towards, you 573 00:34:25,975 --> 00:34:27,075 know going in the right direction 574 00:34:27,650 --> 00:34:28,340 Lawil: Absolutely. 575 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:28,890 Yeah. 576 00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:30,960 Thank you so much. 577 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:31,710 You're welcome. 578 00:34:31,790 --> 00:34:32,970 That's beautifully said. 579 00:34:34,450 --> 00:34:34,660 Thank you. 580 00:34:34,690 --> 00:34:35,490 Definitely. 581 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:36,360 I love that. 582 00:34:36,390 --> 00:34:36,730 Yeah. 583 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:38,610 So, thank you, Leina. 584 00:34:39,220 --> 00:34:44,490 Thank you so much for being part of our podcast, the Future Money podcast. 585 00:34:44,490 --> 00:34:44,630 My pleasure. 586 00:34:53,810 --> 00:34:56,910 To learn more about the Intellectual Foundation, visit our website where you 587 00:34:56,910 --> 00:34:58,710 can find all of the published episodes. 588 00:34:58,985 --> 00:35:01,735 And more information on our guests, grant programs, and 589 00:35:01,735 --> 00:35:03,495 our resources at interledger. 590 00:35:03,815 --> 00:35:04,265 org. 591 00:35:05,065 --> 00:35:06,155 Thank you for listening.