1 00:00:01,090 --> 00:00:05,000 Mia: There is a value that these people already come with that also needs to be 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:10,870 implemented into the digital space to make it more universal to human experience. 3 00:00:12,889 --> 00:00:15,549 Hollis: Welcome to the Future Money podcast, presented by the 4 00:00:15,549 --> 00:00:18,899 Interledger Foundation, where we invite people of all backgrounds 5 00:00:18,899 --> 00:00:22,840 and disciplines to imagine what a financially inclusive future might be. 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,480 I'm Hollis Wong Ware, and I'm a Community Ambassador with 7 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:27,619 the Interledger Foundation. 8 00:00:28,349 --> 00:00:28,509 And 9 00:00:28,510 --> 00:00:31,529 Lawil: I'm Nabil Karama, the Program Officer of the Interledger Foundation. 10 00:00:32,485 --> 00:00:35,385 This is the second episode of the Future Money podcast, and we're in 11 00:00:35,385 --> 00:00:37,035 conversation with Mia Wright Ross. 12 00:00:37,105 --> 00:00:40,455 Mia is a Brooklyn based artist, a leather artisan, and she's the creative 13 00:00:40,455 --> 00:00:42,695 director and founder of MWR Collection. 14 00:00:43,384 --> 00:00:47,025 Hollis: In this episode, we discuss how central familial ties are in her work, 15 00:00:47,375 --> 00:00:51,164 her relationship with her craft, art, and design, and how she was inspired 16 00:00:51,164 --> 00:00:54,625 to apply for the Future Money grant to develop her work, Loose Change. 17 00:00:57,435 --> 00:00:59,015 Mia: My name is Mia Wright Roz. 18 00:00:59,085 --> 00:01:03,275 I am a leather artisan based in Brooklyn, New York. 19 00:01:03,565 --> 00:01:05,494 Um, I'm originally from Richmond, Virginia though. 20 00:01:05,815 --> 00:01:10,554 I work across the board in different aspects of design, but primarily in 21 00:01:10,565 --> 00:01:13,755 leather crafting where my work is focused. 22 00:01:14,055 --> 00:01:17,284 I also make handbags, accessories. 23 00:01:17,570 --> 00:01:22,300 The length of my professional career has been in footwear design and accessories 24 00:01:22,300 --> 00:01:27,680 design and I'm the founder and creative director of, um, a luxury atelier, 25 00:01:27,740 --> 00:01:29,799 um, by the name of MWR Collection. 26 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:34,690 My artistic career is an extension of that work and goes into abstract 27 00:01:35,060 --> 00:01:38,090 tapestries, weavings, and sculptural work. 28 00:01:38,950 --> 00:01:40,520 That's me in a nutshell. 29 00:01:41,820 --> 00:01:45,450 Hollis: I love this concept that like your artistic practice is kind of an extension 30 00:01:45,450 --> 00:01:52,519 and outgrowth of the highly practical art of making apparel and accessories and 31 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:56,369 just curious like whether it was in your childhood or what inspired you initially 32 00:01:56,410 --> 00:02:01,574 to not only craft apparel and accessories but also what drew you to leather. 33 00:02:01,775 --> 00:02:06,605 Mia: As a medium, I enjoy leather because it's so unforgiving, right? 34 00:02:07,015 --> 00:02:11,174 So, like, once I make a stitch, once I make a cut, I have to live with it. 35 00:02:11,684 --> 00:02:16,935 And being, um, an artist, I think a lot of us are really heavy on the eraser 36 00:02:17,075 --> 00:02:21,605 sometimes because we want everything to be perfect and correct and exact. 37 00:02:22,255 --> 00:02:25,990 And I think Leather for me does that. 38 00:02:25,990 --> 00:02:28,280 But even when I make a mistake, I have to live with it. 39 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,400 So it's a harsh reality that I have to make beautiful. 40 00:02:31,810 --> 00:02:36,810 The original love that I had for that practice was my mom used to like we used 41 00:02:36,810 --> 00:02:38,959 to do like mommy and me dates, right? 42 00:02:38,970 --> 00:02:43,120 So we would always go to like coach and she would like get her leather 43 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,610 bags cleaned or like go and do errands around around the city. 44 00:02:48,210 --> 00:02:53,959 But I specifically remember, uh, Going to the coach store with her because 45 00:02:53,959 --> 00:02:56,629 she had like a collection of coach bags at the time and it was like 46 00:02:56,640 --> 00:03:00,309 a big thing for like when I turned 13, I would get a coach bag, right? 47 00:03:01,789 --> 00:03:04,039 So when I walked in, I love the smell. 48 00:03:04,069 --> 00:03:07,309 I love the experience of like caring for the bag. 49 00:03:07,319 --> 00:03:10,659 If my mom had an issue or something broke, she was able to like sit with 50 00:03:10,659 --> 00:03:15,630 them and discuss the terminology and the technology that it would take to 51 00:03:15,700 --> 00:03:17,619 heal the bag for lack of better words. 52 00:03:18,180 --> 00:03:23,160 And I think that became my integral memory for me as I continued to grow. 53 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:24,850 I had always been in art, right? 54 00:03:24,850 --> 00:03:29,559 I had always been in museums and museum programs from like my early youth. 55 00:03:30,130 --> 00:03:33,720 Um, so I had already been making mixed media work, painting, 56 00:03:33,729 --> 00:03:35,120 oil painting, all these things. 57 00:03:35,539 --> 00:03:41,800 But I was also a part of a creative high school that allowed me to explore 58 00:03:41,870 --> 00:03:44,780 apparel, accessories, all those things. 59 00:03:44,830 --> 00:03:48,834 And one of my First dresses I made was out of the sheets of my 60 00:03:48,834 --> 00:03:50,864 great grandmother's linen closet. 61 00:03:50,894 --> 00:03:53,015 So I took them and like painted them. 62 00:03:53,585 --> 00:03:56,984 I just knew I was going to be a fashion designer had always said 63 00:03:56,984 --> 00:04:00,894 it from a very young age, um, but had been in these art programs 64 00:04:00,925 --> 00:04:02,685 that didn't have fashion involved. 65 00:04:03,165 --> 00:04:05,724 Um, so I kind of just broke the seal and did it myself. 66 00:04:05,804 --> 00:04:08,064 Um, and ransacked my grandma's linen closet. 67 00:04:08,064 --> 00:04:09,704 Do you still have those pieces? 68 00:04:10,325 --> 00:04:11,805 I believe my mom does. 69 00:04:12,335 --> 00:04:15,825 She has like one of the first original dresses I made, like in 70 00:04:15,825 --> 00:04:17,765 this Tiffany blue with like beadwork. 71 00:04:18,285 --> 00:04:20,655 And this was when I knew nothing. 72 00:04:20,815 --> 00:04:27,024 My mom went to Walmart, bought a sewing machine and gave it to me and was like 73 00:04:27,570 --> 00:04:29,150 Here's some patterns, figure it out. 74 00:04:29,359 --> 00:04:33,099 I have, we had a few people, like one person, it's Gracie and our family that 75 00:04:33,099 --> 00:04:37,900 knew how to sew, but she taught me a few things and then I kind of just went 76 00:04:37,900 --> 00:04:42,309 on my own and kind of started exploring and realizing it was just a puzzle. 77 00:04:42,985 --> 00:04:46,045 And a puzzle that just needed to be figured out and had 78 00:04:46,045 --> 00:04:48,055 different ways to be interpreted. 79 00:04:48,535 --> 00:04:53,085 My whole high school career from like junior year to senior year became fashion. 80 00:04:53,474 --> 00:04:56,695 And I was one of the first people in my program at the Center for the Arts 81 00:04:56,695 --> 00:04:59,235 in Richmond, Virginia to start fashion. 82 00:04:59,245 --> 00:05:01,944 And now they have a whole fashion program, which is really great. 83 00:05:02,175 --> 00:05:06,724 And then left there to go to Parsons School of Design here in New York. 84 00:05:06,724 --> 00:05:07,905 That's how I ended up in New York. 85 00:05:08,205 --> 00:05:12,395 But while I was there, I took a footwear designing class with my mentor. 86 00:05:12,395 --> 00:05:15,395 He's still my mentor to today, Howard Davis. 87 00:05:15,885 --> 00:05:21,415 Once I got into his class, I was like, Oh my God, this is a material 88 00:05:21,415 --> 00:05:25,265 that I finally, I know I love, but I've never really got my hands on. 89 00:05:25,625 --> 00:05:26,755 He then helped. 90 00:05:27,260 --> 00:05:30,599 Start my career in footwear, and we still work together today. 91 00:05:30,900 --> 00:05:34,710 Lawil: So how, if you look back into that time up until now, because you still 92 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:36,390 work together, how has he shaped you? 93 00:05:36,499 --> 00:05:40,159 Mia: I feel like when it comes to Howard's contribution to me directly, it 94 00:05:40,159 --> 00:05:44,530 comes through the knowledge of like the examination and the experimentation of 95 00:05:44,530 --> 00:05:47,559 footwear in the comfort sector, right? 96 00:05:47,570 --> 00:05:54,415 So he is a person that it overlaps into what I do Especially for the 97 00:05:54,645 --> 00:05:59,135 project that I'm working with for future money, because it again reminds 98 00:05:59,205 --> 00:06:05,835 me that we are creating a object or something that is also to be connected 99 00:06:05,855 --> 00:06:07,855 with the human experience, right? 100 00:06:08,124 --> 00:06:11,774 I think what he's really instilled in me is that we have to make sure that 101 00:06:11,774 --> 00:06:17,365 we're making a product for human beings to experience and to elevate their lives 102 00:06:17,375 --> 00:06:20,455 and to also adjust to their evolution. 103 00:06:20,609 --> 00:06:26,440 The way in which he's directly impacting me, I believe, is just how conscious I 104 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:31,310 have to be of the people, the persons, the community that I'm creating for. 105 00:06:31,730 --> 00:06:32,859 Hollis: I really love that. 106 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:37,889 And that kind of dovetails with a question that I had for you with just how. 107 00:06:38,315 --> 00:06:42,604 Hands on and artisanal, your practices, like what it was like for you to enter 108 00:06:42,604 --> 00:06:47,115 into the world of fine art and like what that transition or, or that inclusion 109 00:06:47,115 --> 00:06:50,885 of that world was like for you and bringing in the more like potentially 110 00:06:50,885 --> 00:06:56,034 like theoretical, esoteric, abstracted, how was that entree for you and 111 00:06:56,034 --> 00:06:57,905 incorporating that into your practice? 112 00:06:58,775 --> 00:07:03,525 Mia: The initial transition happened out of frustration, right? 113 00:07:03,534 --> 00:07:06,815 So out of frustration with the fashion industry because I 114 00:07:06,815 --> 00:07:09,534 have worked in it since 2011. 115 00:07:09,575 --> 00:07:14,705 I'd say that I made my exit in 2019 and the frustration was more so with 116 00:07:14,755 --> 00:07:18,325 the industry at large, people not caring about what we were making. 117 00:07:19,215 --> 00:07:21,885 Um, the speed in which we had to make, right? 118 00:07:21,914 --> 00:07:24,315 Because at the same time I'm working in the fashion industry, 119 00:07:24,315 --> 00:07:26,025 I still have my own company, M. 120 00:07:26,025 --> 00:07:26,244 W. 121 00:07:26,244 --> 00:07:26,364 R. 122 00:07:26,364 --> 00:07:26,875 Collection. 123 00:07:26,875 --> 00:07:28,664 So I'm hand making the entire time. 124 00:07:29,345 --> 00:07:35,015 And I think the process of me always instilling that and I knew that craft 125 00:07:35,065 --> 00:07:39,845 and artisanal processes were still pivotal to the fashion industry, 126 00:07:39,845 --> 00:07:41,165 even if they didn't think so. 127 00:07:41,655 --> 00:07:47,395 Um, made me realize like, Oh, this is becoming this industry and what it stands 128 00:07:47,395 --> 00:07:49,755 for and what it is willing to deal with. 129 00:07:49,835 --> 00:07:52,694 Um, I personally cannot any longer. 130 00:07:53,135 --> 00:07:56,015 It kind of like left me with a little bit of PTSD. 131 00:07:57,234 --> 00:07:58,025 Oh, I completely understand. 132 00:07:58,554 --> 00:08:02,905 And I saw areas where I needed healing and I knew other people did as well. 133 00:08:03,005 --> 00:08:07,605 Um, so I exited the fashion industry to become a teacher, to 134 00:08:07,605 --> 00:08:08,965 become a professor at Parsons. 135 00:08:09,835 --> 00:08:11,275 And then upon. 136 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:13,570 Transitioning into that space. 137 00:08:13,570 --> 00:08:19,920 I was like, Okay, I have a lot of existing emotion around making, 138 00:08:19,930 --> 00:08:22,230 but I also still enjoy making. 139 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,170 So I started making, um, these working on these tapestry works. 140 00:08:26,170 --> 00:08:31,140 One of the first ones is called Timeline, which is basically every 141 00:08:31,660 --> 00:08:36,020 Piece of like, when I get on my sewing machine, you start like just getting 142 00:08:36,020 --> 00:08:37,170 the rhythm of the sewing machine. 143 00:08:37,180 --> 00:08:38,680 Like, Hey, machine, how's it going? 144 00:08:38,750 --> 00:08:42,020 I know what happened to you in a minute, or we were working together last week 145 00:08:42,020 --> 00:08:43,630 and you were on some other stuff. 146 00:08:45,490 --> 00:08:49,240 So just to get like a meditative reacclimation to the machine. 147 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,089 I always do like small little stitching marcos. 148 00:08:52,089 --> 00:08:56,490 Um, so instead of discarding them, I would just collect them. 149 00:08:56,660 --> 00:08:57,100 Right. 150 00:08:57,150 --> 00:09:03,210 Um, so I didn't have like these rhythmic Viewings or interpretations of what 151 00:09:03,210 --> 00:09:08,380 I had been emotionally dealing with with a certain project or just coming 152 00:09:08,380 --> 00:09:11,690 in the house and being exhausted and just wanted to do something for me. 153 00:09:11,690 --> 00:09:14,760 So I would just get on the sewing machine and I had like, uh, 154 00:09:15,039 --> 00:09:16,459 yeah, just a collection of them. 155 00:09:16,459 --> 00:09:18,010 So I started weaving them together. 156 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:24,490 And one of the pieces, um, on timeline is actually a baby shoe. 157 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,240 I made the first baby shoe I made for my knees. 158 00:09:27,650 --> 00:09:32,770 Um, so I can like look back and say, okay, this is the spirit I was in at this time. 159 00:09:32,770 --> 00:09:34,409 This is what I was feeling at this time. 160 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,399 And that's kind of how it started to evolve because I needed. 161 00:09:38,785 --> 00:09:43,145 Yeah, I needed an outlet, um, that didn't need to be product, like 162 00:09:43,265 --> 00:09:48,984 productivity or to be, um, a form of consumption or commodification. 163 00:09:50,445 --> 00:09:52,644 Lawil: But it sounds very immersive, this timeline. 164 00:09:52,645 --> 00:09:53,695 It was a time of healing. 165 00:09:54,135 --> 00:10:00,605 Mia: It's a potent theme throughout my work, um, is like, so Timeline started 166 00:10:00,725 --> 00:10:05,495 from that healing and then I had, so as I said, I transitioned into the Museum of 167 00:10:05,645 --> 00:10:10,315 Art and Design, and that was in 2020, so I got the residency at the Museum of Art 168 00:10:10,315 --> 00:10:17,075 and Design in 2020 in February, but then we went on lockdown in March, um, so I had 169 00:10:17,075 --> 00:10:22,254 to take everything, um, I had just moved my entire home studio to 59th Street, 170 00:10:22,705 --> 00:10:26,735 And then, uh, they told us, Hey, we don't know how long we're gonna be away, 171 00:10:26,785 --> 00:10:29,615 but, uh, you should pack what you need. 172 00:10:30,205 --> 00:10:35,055 Um, so instead of my other mentor, who is a phenomenal photographer, Bill 173 00:10:35,055 --> 00:10:37,415 Gaskins had already come to visit me. 174 00:10:37,885 --> 00:10:43,920 And he saw that my studio was unbelievably packed with A bunch of things that I 175 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:49,020 didn't necessarily need to be working on . And he was like, so what is the focus? 176 00:10:49,020 --> 00:10:56,610 Like what, this is the time that you can like let go of the commodification and the 177 00:10:56,610 --> 00:10:59,910 industrial utility aspect of your work. 178 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,860 You can just kind of be free of that. 179 00:11:02,350 --> 00:11:03,280 What are you left with? 180 00:11:03,370 --> 00:11:07,120 So the act of having to get everything together because we were 181 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,490 going into lockdown was like, okay. 182 00:11:10,765 --> 00:11:14,185 Let me look at the work that I've been doing for the past 10 years, like, 183 00:11:14,185 --> 00:11:16,995 this is the time I haven't been able to do that because I've been working. 184 00:11:17,245 --> 00:11:17,705 Right. 185 00:11:18,094 --> 00:11:22,275 And that retrospect was also healing to be like, oh, wait, I've done 186 00:11:22,295 --> 00:11:24,355 a lot in a little bit of time. 187 00:11:25,365 --> 00:11:29,314 What does it look like when I can Remove everything else. 188 00:11:29,375 --> 00:11:33,725 And it's just the me that needs to be in view. 189 00:11:33,895 --> 00:11:34,885 How did you approach 190 00:11:34,885 --> 00:11:35,204 Lawil: that? 191 00:11:35,385 --> 00:11:36,545 Mia: I remember the exact moment. 192 00:11:36,564 --> 00:11:40,814 I was looking at one of the suitcases named after my great grandmother, Bernice. 193 00:11:41,374 --> 00:11:46,124 And I looked at it and we were like, so what about it is the 194 00:11:46,124 --> 00:11:47,694 thing that is gravitating? 195 00:11:47,975 --> 00:11:48,745 you towards it. 196 00:11:48,755 --> 00:11:50,314 And I was like, Oh, the whip stitch. 197 00:11:50,385 --> 00:11:53,675 So the whip stitch is one of the signature details that we 198 00:11:53,675 --> 00:11:56,595 use in MWR collection, right? 199 00:11:56,595 --> 00:11:57,765 It's the leather cording. 200 00:11:57,765 --> 00:12:02,294 It's a solid leather cording that we stitch around the perimeter or the scenes 201 00:12:02,295 --> 00:12:03,935 of all of the works that we produce. 202 00:12:04,584 --> 00:12:07,285 Um, and it is literally our signature. 203 00:12:07,605 --> 00:12:09,834 So I took the cord and that was all I had. 204 00:12:10,369 --> 00:12:14,339 So when I was working, um, as an extension of the work that I had 205 00:12:14,339 --> 00:12:19,390 already done in timeline, I had already started a new work that eventually 206 00:12:19,390 --> 00:12:24,679 became to happen to whole, which is another tapestry, large scale tapestry. 207 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:28,715 I believe it's at least 11 feet tall now. 208 00:12:29,265 --> 00:12:34,995 I started this work in the pandemic, but also as an extension of my healing 209 00:12:35,024 --> 00:12:39,324 practice and my grieving process, um, with the loss of my grandmothers 210 00:12:39,334 --> 00:12:41,185 who had passed away in 2017. 211 00:12:41,675 --> 00:12:45,154 Um, so again, because we were like in isolation, I'm like 212 00:12:45,224 --> 00:12:46,745 dealing with all of these things. 213 00:12:46,755 --> 00:12:51,145 Same thing that happened when I left the fashion Industry like, oh wait, 214 00:12:51,175 --> 00:12:55,895 I get a breath and now I can actually feel the things that I need to feel. 215 00:12:56,055 --> 00:13:00,824 To get back to the question too, the initial reaction I had coming 216 00:13:00,824 --> 00:13:05,795 into the artistic fine art space was very much like, you're not a 217 00:13:05,824 --> 00:13:07,625 fine artist, you're a craftsperson. 218 00:13:09,755 --> 00:13:12,125 Lawil: That's a very strong distinction always. 219 00:13:12,165 --> 00:13:14,475 Like they are very sharp on that. 220 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:15,000 It's a 221 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:21,330 Hollis: false binary that over emphasizes and overly privileges these like Western 222 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:27,240 colonial forms of not only like medium and expression and devalues and like 223 00:13:27,610 --> 00:13:30,079 frankly dehumanizes the like crafts. 224 00:13:31,050 --> 00:13:33,910 I'd love to just hear more just transitioning into the 225 00:13:33,910 --> 00:13:37,160 project that you developed for Future Money, um, Loose Change. 226 00:13:37,490 --> 00:13:41,260 Could you just tell us about the project and kind of how it sparked? 227 00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:43,800 Um, how I got here, Lord. 228 00:13:45,260 --> 00:13:49,620 Mia: So this, Loose Change Change, is a series dedicated to 229 00:13:49,620 --> 00:13:52,420 my great grandmother, Bernice T. 230 00:13:52,649 --> 00:13:53,349 Tolerite. 231 00:13:53,930 --> 00:14:01,620 Um, she passed away in 2019, but was a avid, like, Lottery player. 232 00:14:01,670 --> 00:14:04,130 Like it was her thing. 233 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:05,960 We know that about her. 234 00:14:06,020 --> 00:14:07,590 We love that about 235 00:14:07,590 --> 00:14:08,639 Lawil: her. 236 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:10,550 Did she send you out to buy her tickets? 237 00:14:10,610 --> 00:14:14,569 Mia: Yes, she sent us out, like, especially when I moved to New York City. 238 00:14:15,700 --> 00:14:19,810 When I moved to New York City, if I flew, like, any travel that I was doing, like, 239 00:14:19,820 --> 00:14:23,630 if I was anywhere that had the lottery, I needed to bring her back a ticket. 240 00:14:23,810 --> 00:14:27,300 Um, so as I, like, in our family, like, just examining this. 241 00:14:27,645 --> 00:14:30,865 tradition that we had created in homage to her, I was like, well, 242 00:14:30,875 --> 00:14:32,865 why is it that we do these things? 243 00:14:33,195 --> 00:14:36,364 Why is it the lottery as a black American? 244 00:14:36,375 --> 00:14:40,895 What is it that I have a history attached to the lottery that makes 245 00:14:40,895 --> 00:14:44,664 this so integral and also does not is not only familiar to me. 246 00:14:44,665 --> 00:14:47,514 It's familiar to so many other people too. 247 00:14:48,304 --> 00:14:49,814 So I started collecting the words. 248 00:14:49,814 --> 00:14:53,574 I started building like small tapestries, like working with backing 249 00:14:53,575 --> 00:14:56,734 it with leather to kind of give it the strength that I thought it needed. 250 00:14:57,165 --> 00:15:02,545 And, but still also working in the same processes that I would use to make my 251 00:15:02,594 --> 00:15:04,754 leather tapestries or my leather work. 252 00:15:04,754 --> 00:15:09,055 So I'm collaging the lottery tickets together, then 253 00:15:09,064 --> 00:15:10,305 backing them on the leather. 254 00:15:10,305 --> 00:15:12,265 I'm stitching them on the sewing machine. 255 00:15:12,574 --> 00:15:16,485 I'm stitching some of the paper tickets just on the sewing machine. 256 00:15:16,485 --> 00:15:19,754 So there's a level of fragility that also is. 257 00:15:20,189 --> 00:15:25,969 Um, apparent even though it's integral to the capitalist structure 258 00:15:25,980 --> 00:15:30,129 and the strength of hope, you know, in this idea of the lottery. 259 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:35,569 Um, so it really became like a research of like, why in, uh, why 260 00:15:35,569 --> 00:15:38,089 is this such a thing that litters? 261 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,000 Black and brown communities, right? 262 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:45,150 Lottery tickets are things that are primarily in like a 7 11 or a liquor 263 00:15:45,150 --> 00:15:50,200 store or some type of bar, you know, but they're primarily in our communities. 264 00:15:50,660 --> 00:15:53,880 I think the, the introspection of trying to understand why my great 265 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,620 grandmother had this relationship with it. 266 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,320 And what my community, what I saw was apparent in my community was like, okay, 267 00:16:01,330 --> 00:16:04,439 wait, there's a history of colonization. 268 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:09,810 The 13 colonies was funded by the lottery structure. 269 00:16:09,819 --> 00:16:13,389 Like it is apparent within the history of America. 270 00:16:13,875 --> 00:16:17,905 Lawil: But you explain it a little bit more because I'm like, I'm not American. 271 00:16:17,905 --> 00:16:19,335 So I need to learn right now. 272 00:16:19,375 --> 00:16:20,545 This is a learning moment for me. 273 00:16:20,564 --> 00:16:21,595 The 13 colonies. 274 00:16:21,675 --> 00:16:22,045 Let's start. 275 00:16:22,085 --> 00:16:22,425 Yeah. 276 00:16:22,435 --> 00:16:25,885 Mia: So the 13 colonies, the foundation of America. 277 00:16:25,925 --> 00:16:30,524 So it's basically before the 50 states where the 13 colonies, this 278 00:16:30,524 --> 00:16:34,865 is how they established it through the lottery and the gambling of land. 279 00:16:34,975 --> 00:16:40,965 And, um, and yeah, so the lottery was created so that you could petition. 280 00:16:41,340 --> 00:16:43,360 To come in and purchase land. 281 00:16:43,450 --> 00:16:47,460 Lottery's also existed for the slave trade, same way with auctions. 282 00:16:48,220 --> 00:16:51,910 It's an integral history of the place that we stand. 283 00:16:52,270 --> 00:16:58,459 So, and the idea is that the marketability of it, right, is that this is the make 284 00:16:58,469 --> 00:17:03,390 your own life, the make your own hope, the hope of that you can make a million 285 00:17:03,390 --> 00:17:08,370 dollars, the hope of that, if I was just a millionaire, if I was just a billionaire, 286 00:17:08,419 --> 00:17:09,850 I can have the American dream. 287 00:17:09,980 --> 00:17:10,329 Right. 288 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:16,069 If I could, if I hope and I petitioned to get that land that's in Virginia, 289 00:17:16,500 --> 00:17:20,479 um, so that I can be a landowner and then I can be a slave owner 290 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:22,070 and then I can be a millionaire. 291 00:17:22,120 --> 00:17:22,540 Right. 292 00:17:22,579 --> 00:17:27,479 It's a, it's this idea that is persistent with this false narrative of hope. 293 00:17:27,949 --> 00:17:33,254 Hollis: And the like deeply false concept that like, well, That 294 00:17:33,254 --> 00:17:35,155 there's a randomization to wealth. 295 00:17:35,324 --> 00:17:35,855 Lawil: Yeah. 296 00:17:36,235 --> 00:17:39,584 Hollis: It's this narrative to mask the calcified wealth disparity 297 00:17:39,584 --> 00:17:40,725 that this country was built on. 298 00:17:41,415 --> 00:17:41,975 Mia: Mm hmm. 299 00:17:42,735 --> 00:17:44,684 It's so intricate because it's a game. 300 00:17:44,985 --> 00:17:46,835 So it can't be that serious, right? 301 00:17:46,845 --> 00:17:47,965 It's a game. 302 00:17:47,994 --> 00:17:52,824 All you just, I just put in a dollar, I'll put my loose change, I'll use my 303 00:17:52,824 --> 00:17:57,055 loose change to practice or to like. 304 00:17:57,380 --> 00:18:01,400 Participate in the game, but you know, if I lose it, it was only 305 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,020 a dollar, but that dollar could, I mean, move to somebody else. 306 00:18:05,050 --> 00:18:05,250 Yeah, 307 00:18:05,990 --> 00:18:08,270 Lawil: because it's the direct accumulation of everybody putting 308 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,280 like a dollar in the pool that makes us kind of like a whole lot of money. 309 00:18:11,329 --> 00:18:12,495 And that's what scares me. 310 00:18:12,495 --> 00:18:13,179 And what 311 00:18:13,179 --> 00:18:13,864 Mia: could have. 312 00:18:14,025 --> 00:18:14,285 Right? 313 00:18:14,845 --> 00:18:19,905 So the example of the tapestries that I'm leaving with change is what could have 314 00:18:19,905 --> 00:18:26,234 happened if you did not contribute to the game of the lottery industry, right? 315 00:18:26,525 --> 00:18:30,654 So the liaisons, the community liaisons that we employ now we 316 00:18:30,654 --> 00:18:32,655 have our main one who is Mike. 317 00:18:32,664 --> 00:18:35,075 He's been working with me since I moved to Brooklyn. 318 00:18:35,125 --> 00:18:40,804 So I would say 2021 and I really started working and collecting these works. 319 00:18:40,805 --> 00:18:40,819 Thanks. 320 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:46,030 Because on my block, there is a, uh, liquor store at the very end, and 321 00:18:46,110 --> 00:18:50,869 the block is always littered, like, splattered with lottery tickets. 322 00:18:51,289 --> 00:18:54,310 The gravity of this is also crazy. 323 00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:58,550 Like, on a daily basis, it's so many lottery tickets. 324 00:18:58,639 --> 00:19:03,520 In an area where there is a community, like, bottle recycling place, so 325 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,890 you have a lot of Uh, marginalized people coming with their huge bags and 326 00:19:07,890 --> 00:19:10,090 carts to recycle just for five cents. 327 00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:10,500 Right? 328 00:19:10,810 --> 00:19:15,850 So again, like I'm seeing the remnants of what capitalism 329 00:19:15,850 --> 00:19:18,590 does in so many different ways. 330 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,250 So when, when I started working with Mike, I had already been like, just 331 00:19:22,299 --> 00:19:26,420 picking them up on the street and something told me, um, cause Mike is. 332 00:19:27,095 --> 00:19:29,735 A healing veteran that I like, I like to say he's a healing 333 00:19:29,915 --> 00:19:33,645 veteran that is basically like our community mayor on the street. 334 00:19:34,655 --> 00:19:36,274 And I was like, Mike, you're always out here. 335 00:19:36,274 --> 00:19:38,154 I also noticed that he was like cleaning. 336 00:19:38,165 --> 00:19:41,065 He will always clean our block and make sure that it looks 337 00:19:41,465 --> 00:19:43,354 like livable for us and for him. 338 00:19:43,434 --> 00:19:43,834 Right? 339 00:19:44,215 --> 00:19:48,415 Um, so I was like, okay, well, if you're doing this, maybe I can just ask because 340 00:19:48,565 --> 00:19:50,345 I can't pick them up all by myself. 341 00:19:50,375 --> 00:19:50,755 Right? 342 00:19:50,785 --> 00:19:53,775 It's too many and the work, the gravity. 343 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,740 How I see this work being so expansive and helping the community. 344 00:19:58,040 --> 00:19:58,790 I need help. 345 00:19:58,939 --> 00:19:59,310 Right. 346 00:19:59,770 --> 00:20:04,059 So I employed him to be like, Alright, so every ticket you give, I'll give you 347 00:20:04,060 --> 00:20:09,759 like 20 cents or 25 cents or 50 cents per ticket, depending on how many you give me. 348 00:20:10,129 --> 00:20:12,369 And that's how we started building a relationship. 349 00:20:12,489 --> 00:20:18,149 And it also gave him like, Another avenue to create some type of 350 00:20:18,439 --> 00:20:22,340 revenue other than trying to like ask for money on the street. 351 00:20:22,350 --> 00:20:23,679 And it also empowers them. 352 00:20:23,860 --> 00:20:27,659 Hollis: I think what the theme that I'm hearing a lot, even in from your personal 353 00:20:27,659 --> 00:20:31,739 experience to the community experiences, like this concept of reclamation, like how 354 00:20:31,739 --> 00:20:37,120 are we honoring like the ritual and the tradition within this while also defying 355 00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:43,319 or rejecting the false premise that this game was built on and this kind of, 356 00:20:44,075 --> 00:20:51,435 Thought that like wealth disparity can be like magically disappeared through chance 357 00:20:51,465 --> 00:20:58,610 or luck or falsehood of this randomization when it's all deeply Interesting. 358 00:20:58,610 --> 00:20:59,149 It's planned. 359 00:21:01,110 --> 00:21:05,250 Um, and so I'm curious, like, as we think about the theme of future money, right? 360 00:21:05,260 --> 00:21:10,080 And like, what have your learnings been or any insights that you've gained, 361 00:21:10,189 --> 00:21:14,670 like doing this very, again, like artisanal and also community focused 362 00:21:14,819 --> 00:21:20,440 process and then also thinking ahead for like new visioning, like new 363 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,930 modalities of community resourcing. 364 00:21:24,979 --> 00:21:26,770 Um, what's come to light. 365 00:21:27,025 --> 00:21:32,355 Through working as part of both within your own art practice, as 366 00:21:32,355 --> 00:21:33,915 well as being part of the cohort. 367 00:21:34,395 --> 00:21:39,160 Mia: I think the cohort specifically has made me like Open the scope of what 368 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,340 I see and make it multidimensional. 369 00:21:42,459 --> 00:21:42,929 Right? 370 00:21:42,939 --> 00:21:44,520 So it's more. 371 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,340 So yes, we are physically helping people. 372 00:21:47,340 --> 00:21:51,870 Yes, there's a tangible, uh, like reality, right? 373 00:21:51,899 --> 00:21:56,729 Again, that has been apparent in my work, but also that they're in 374 00:21:56,839 --> 00:22:00,879 attached to that tangible reality is like this digital space that also 375 00:22:00,879 --> 00:22:07,299 can give some evolution revolution and some, uh, yes, uh, some you. 376 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,409 even even playing field, right? 377 00:22:09,810 --> 00:22:14,060 Um, and I think most of that the way in which I've been able to see it be 378 00:22:14,060 --> 00:22:19,460 interpreted is being able to have a digital format where the community 379 00:22:19,460 --> 00:22:24,430 liaisons are the people that are coming that are receiving funding or who 380 00:22:24,439 --> 00:22:27,099 need the resources that we offer can. 381 00:22:27,495 --> 00:22:32,555 Not only depend on the physicality of collecting the lottery tickets, 382 00:22:32,555 --> 00:22:36,085 but also they can become a part of the uplifting, right? 383 00:22:36,085 --> 00:22:39,355 So as it's helping them, it can help somebody else through our cohorts. 384 00:22:39,665 --> 00:22:44,734 I've been realizing like, Oh, wait, that could be in the form of an app or of a 385 00:22:44,734 --> 00:22:48,254 vending machine that can go and receive. 386 00:22:48,570 --> 00:22:52,510 Just like they do with the, um, recycle bottles, you can go to a 387 00:22:52,510 --> 00:22:56,430 space and you can say, all right, so I've collected this amount. 388 00:22:56,610 --> 00:22:58,820 This is what I'll be receiving, right? 389 00:22:58,830 --> 00:23:01,780 And there's a form of exchange, but also expanding it into the 390 00:23:01,780 --> 00:23:06,869 digital space where this can be in the form of digital markers. 391 00:23:06,910 --> 00:23:11,870 It can be in the form of access to certain resources or being able to 392 00:23:12,170 --> 00:23:16,314 click an app and be able to To go get a food voucher from somewhere 393 00:23:16,314 --> 00:23:20,945 else from a community or organization that's working with us with the cohort. 394 00:23:20,945 --> 00:23:27,034 I've been able to be more expansive of how we can really kind of balance 395 00:23:27,084 --> 00:23:32,334 and create a more even understanding of how the money and how the exchange 396 00:23:32,354 --> 00:23:35,394 and the appreciation of value, right? 397 00:23:35,404 --> 00:23:39,340 And not just the money, but what the thing is that you value can 398 00:23:39,340 --> 00:23:43,259 be interpreted across the people that are engaging in this process, 399 00:23:43,270 --> 00:23:45,620 specifically our community liaisons. 400 00:23:45,810 --> 00:23:50,659 And one of the ways in which I've been trying to implement this is now when we 401 00:23:50,659 --> 00:23:52,999 have, when we bring on community liaisons. 402 00:23:53,350 --> 00:23:57,419 It's having like a digital survey where they can kind of update what it 403 00:23:57,419 --> 00:23:59,219 is their needs and necessities are. 404 00:23:59,570 --> 00:24:04,069 If they've changed, if some of the things that they needed before they 405 00:24:04,069 --> 00:24:08,870 don't need anymore, or if they also want to recommend somebody to our 406 00:24:08,870 --> 00:24:12,719 services, someone who is a community liaison, or maybe someone in their family 407 00:24:12,719 --> 00:24:14,710 that also just needs the resources. 408 00:24:15,210 --> 00:24:20,820 And then that resource can also be exchanged if it be in a digital marker 409 00:24:20,859 --> 00:24:27,585 or It could be a access to an app or some type of structure that also allows 410 00:24:27,595 --> 00:24:33,035 them to be able to then learn about this new digital landscape instead 411 00:24:33,035 --> 00:24:38,215 of just being a person that's like in on the remnants of it or does not get 412 00:24:38,245 --> 00:24:44,545 access to it because of some type of hierarchical financial structure, right? 413 00:24:44,775 --> 00:24:47,995 Lawil: Are the persons who are the community liaison liaisons, are they 414 00:24:47,995 --> 00:24:51,354 mostly people from the periphery or is it like, what are the requirements? 415 00:24:51,794 --> 00:24:53,294 Mia: Um, there are no requirements. 416 00:24:53,304 --> 00:24:58,615 So usually if you need help of any format, a lot of our liaisons are 417 00:24:58,615 --> 00:25:04,345 either in recovery programs, are houseless, veterans, healing folk. 418 00:25:04,605 --> 00:25:07,864 So if anybody who needs any type of help. 419 00:25:08,340 --> 00:25:12,940 And usually does not have access to financial, like regular financial 420 00:25:12,940 --> 00:25:14,510 structure, being banking structure. 421 00:25:14,830 --> 00:25:17,090 They can always come and help, right? 422 00:25:17,350 --> 00:25:21,290 So in the forms of exchange, we've been doing is yes, through monetary 423 00:25:21,290 --> 00:25:23,950 exchange, but also through like MetroCard. 424 00:25:23,959 --> 00:25:25,699 So I've been like purchasing MetroCard. 425 00:25:25,719 --> 00:25:31,480 So then they have access to find a job or to go to their recovery program because 426 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,790 we've been able to implement the survey. 427 00:25:33,830 --> 00:25:39,225 For example, Some of our liaisons will say, Hey, well, I don't really need that 428 00:25:39,225 --> 00:25:41,385 right now, but I do need a pair of shoes. 429 00:25:41,515 --> 00:25:46,575 Like I do need that, you know, so it's a multi resource output because it's 430 00:25:46,615 --> 00:25:51,124 based on what their needs are and not necessarily, um, what we can just offer. 431 00:25:51,165 --> 00:25:51,554 Right. 432 00:25:51,554 --> 00:25:56,220 And the, and the Great thing about that is that it's able to evolve with who they 433 00:25:56,220 --> 00:25:59,719 are rather than just stereotyping them. 434 00:25:59,719 --> 00:26:01,350 It's like, Oh, well, you're a house person. 435 00:26:01,350 --> 00:26:03,290 So I'm going to give you the thing that I think you need. 436 00:26:03,909 --> 00:26:07,629 And that's what I believe the future money has kind of like brought 437 00:26:07,669 --> 00:26:11,569 to my awareness is that there needs to be a discourse, right? 438 00:26:11,610 --> 00:26:15,739 Because even in the digital input of not even transition, but the input 439 00:26:15,739 --> 00:26:20,860 of that structure into the loose change change, like, yeah, the. 440 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:21,850 process. 441 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,690 It allows for there to be knowledge exchange, right? 442 00:26:26,700 --> 00:26:31,349 So yes, this is the digital landscape that we want you to understand and 443 00:26:31,350 --> 00:26:33,420 the value that can be attached to it. 444 00:26:33,660 --> 00:26:37,359 But also there is a value that these people already come with 445 00:26:37,500 --> 00:26:41,020 that also needs to be implemented into the digital space to make it 446 00:26:41,300 --> 00:26:44,530 more universal to human experience. 447 00:26:44,985 --> 00:26:48,265 Lawil: What type of technologies have you kind of like discovered up until 448 00:26:48,265 --> 00:26:51,795 now that could kind of like potentially be beneficial for your project? 449 00:26:52,375 --> 00:26:56,804 Mia: So it's been very like bare bones when it comes to technology because we're 450 00:26:56,804 --> 00:27:02,675 trying to really focus on the ways we need to integrate those narratives of 451 00:27:02,695 --> 00:27:04,705 past into the technological advancements. 452 00:27:05,104 --> 00:27:09,715 So I guess one of the kind of like bare bones version of what I intend to 453 00:27:09,784 --> 00:27:15,579 eventually do is that now we have Uh, recycling boxes in certain, like, local 454 00:27:15,590 --> 00:27:21,029 businesses, um, so that, because even with some of our liaisons, some of them are 455 00:27:21,029 --> 00:27:23,779 disabled, so they can't go around, right? 456 00:27:23,809 --> 00:27:28,519 But they can decide, hey, I have two or three of our local businesses 457 00:27:28,539 --> 00:27:30,024 that are already sponsoring us. 458 00:27:30,374 --> 00:27:34,794 So I can say I'm going to go here on Tuesdays and I can make sure that 459 00:27:34,794 --> 00:27:38,655 I have transportation or that I'm resting enough to go pick those things 460 00:27:38,655 --> 00:27:40,304 up and then drop them off, right? 461 00:27:40,695 --> 00:27:45,574 And my interpretation of how that can eventually become a technological 462 00:27:45,574 --> 00:27:49,935 transition is that there eventually can be an app gives people access for 463 00:27:49,935 --> 00:27:55,144 those who do have phone accessibility or some type of vending machine experience 464 00:27:55,155 --> 00:27:58,064 so that it's already in a safe space. 465 00:27:58,475 --> 00:28:02,264 That they have access to, that they can like maybe put in some type of digital 466 00:28:02,264 --> 00:28:06,675 code that marks who they are and then there can be a creation of like some 467 00:28:06,675 --> 00:28:11,705 type of card or some type of, yeah, some type of card transition so they can have, 468 00:28:11,745 --> 00:28:16,475 and then they can say, okay, yeah, I want a digital currency or no, I would 469 00:28:16,475 --> 00:28:22,850 prefer to have, Monetary currency, or I would rather this be interpreted to, 470 00:28:23,219 --> 00:28:28,729 uh, the local grocery store and I can use it to buy food or the local shopping 471 00:28:28,740 --> 00:28:30,949 center where I can buy clothes, right? 472 00:28:31,269 --> 00:28:35,319 So that's the, the intention and the goal in which I'm factoring in the 473 00:28:35,319 --> 00:28:38,899 technology, which is why I'm excited about the summit because I want, I know 474 00:28:38,899 --> 00:28:43,429 that there are already technological like structures that are built, but I 475 00:28:43,429 --> 00:28:48,425 don't think they're working in the way In this like resourceful multifaceted 476 00:28:48,425 --> 00:28:50,385 way from this psychotic standpoint. 477 00:28:50,764 --> 00:28:51,215 Yeah. 478 00:28:51,365 --> 00:28:55,955 Hollis: I mean, I hear there's like such subversion in the work and a 479 00:28:55,955 --> 00:29:03,584 type of fashioning not intended or not, um, like self determination. 480 00:29:03,605 --> 00:29:07,235 And what does that look like outside of the bounds of the state? 481 00:29:07,284 --> 00:29:08,225 And what is that? 482 00:29:08,235 --> 00:29:11,345 But also, and what does that look like by cultivating relationships? 483 00:29:11,545 --> 00:29:15,145 that you have done, whether it's your art practice, the organizations that 484 00:29:15,145 --> 00:29:18,865 you're engaged with, breaking out of the bounds of fine art and everything 485 00:29:19,014 --> 00:29:23,614 existing in the theoretical and really like going into a place where it's like 486 00:29:23,615 --> 00:29:26,344 relationship building and community building, which is like personally 487 00:29:26,344 --> 00:29:29,985 what I see as being where hope becomes. 488 00:29:30,540 --> 00:29:36,470 Possible and tangible and actually creating solution based things versus 489 00:29:36,470 --> 00:29:39,750 just kind of the premise or the thought, 490 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:41,030 Mia: um, 491 00:29:41,779 --> 00:29:42,990 Hollis: moving beyond theory. 492 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,309 Mia: I realized even like with the future money support, I was 493 00:29:47,309 --> 00:29:51,450 like, Oh, wait, we're actually helping people and they're healing. 494 00:29:51,460 --> 00:29:56,560 Like one of our liaisons who was amazing, like she would bring like trash bags 495 00:29:57,009 --> 00:29:59,440 full of recycled lottery tickets. 496 00:29:59,470 --> 00:30:00,370 Her name was Joanne. 497 00:30:00,555 --> 00:30:06,115 But she transitioned into a recovery program in Virginia and was like, 498 00:30:06,165 --> 00:30:10,385 the month before, I was like, Hey, just so you know, I won't be here. 499 00:30:10,515 --> 00:30:11,504 And I was like, what do you mean? 500 00:30:11,784 --> 00:30:14,345 And she's like, well, I'm going into a recovery program. 501 00:30:14,345 --> 00:30:17,184 I had some health stuff, but I want to go get something. 502 00:30:17,184 --> 00:30:18,454 I was like, Oh my God, there's some. 503 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,300 amazing, right? 504 00:30:20,350 --> 00:30:23,820 But I don't even think I even thought to the point where no, 505 00:30:23,820 --> 00:30:25,340 we're actually healing people. 506 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,120 So we're going to have to create some type of digital structure or 507 00:30:30,140 --> 00:30:34,889 technological structure that allows us to not only just keep track of them, but 508 00:30:34,890 --> 00:30:38,049 also make sure they still continuously have access to these resources. 509 00:30:38,650 --> 00:30:41,130 Hollis: I feel like we could talk for another couple hours, but we're going 510 00:30:41,130 --> 00:30:45,600 to wind down this episode and just, um, a plug that you're going to be 511 00:30:45,610 --> 00:30:50,820 exhibiting what sounds like kind of like a section of the loose change tapestry. 512 00:30:50,900 --> 00:30:56,759 Mia: It's now 15 feet by 6 feet, which Loyal is looking at me like, 513 00:30:56,830 --> 00:30:58,590 I'm like, and I'm like laughing away. 514 00:30:59,045 --> 00:31:01,705 Cause I've been going back and forth like, should I cut it off? 515 00:31:01,705 --> 00:31:02,005 Should I cut it? 516 00:31:03,375 --> 00:31:04,915 Um, but it works. 517 00:31:04,975 --> 00:31:06,185 It's beautiful. 518 00:31:06,195 --> 00:31:08,975 So me on this flight is going to be something interesting. 519 00:31:09,985 --> 00:31:13,285 Hollis: So you're flying with a 25 foot by six foot leather. 520 00:31:13,285 --> 00:31:15,204 15 feet. 521 00:31:15,204 --> 00:31:15,704 Thank God. 522 00:31:15,765 --> 00:31:16,064 15 feet. 523 00:31:16,104 --> 00:31:16,514 My bad. 524 00:31:16,515 --> 00:31:16,864 My bad. 525 00:31:17,685 --> 00:31:19,565 Mia: But it's getting there for sure. 526 00:31:20,065 --> 00:31:26,655 Um, the goal, the end goal is as well is for the work to evolve to be 40 acres. 527 00:31:26,845 --> 00:31:30,655 Um, because apparently that you know, that's what we were supposed to receive 528 00:31:30,685 --> 00:31:36,755 in our emancipation in our, our freedom, you know, um, so the goal is I think the 529 00:31:36,835 --> 00:31:41,825 first stage I want to at least get it to one acre, um, in the in length and size. 530 00:31:42,115 --> 00:31:47,055 And I've been also working to find, um, like seed space where we can 531 00:31:47,055 --> 00:31:52,200 maybe implant seeds into the work so that once It continues to evolve. 532 00:31:52,250 --> 00:31:57,060 It actually can birth some flowers or things in depending on how we decide 533 00:31:57,060 --> 00:31:58,550 to install it in different ways. 534 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,859 So, yeah, there's a lot of evolution and how expansively thinking about the 535 00:32:03,859 --> 00:32:09,100 gravity of what it will hold and what it will represent, but also how it can then 536 00:32:09,140 --> 00:32:13,750 feed back into the communities in which are helping build the work for sure. 537 00:32:13,810 --> 00:32:14,770 Hollis: Absolutely. 538 00:32:15,180 --> 00:32:15,899 That's so awesome. 539 00:32:15,899 --> 00:32:19,839 Well, we really appreciate your time and the level of thoughtfulness and 540 00:32:19,849 --> 00:32:23,199 engagement that you've had in this project and just sharing with us. 541 00:32:23,620 --> 00:32:26,830 About your journey as an artist and now really as a community 542 00:32:26,830 --> 00:32:29,270 organizer through the medium of art. 543 00:32:29,270 --> 00:32:32,010 Yeah, yeah, for sure. 544 00:32:32,290 --> 00:32:35,500 And I guess like, that's the last question I have for you just to close this out. 545 00:32:35,770 --> 00:32:41,180 I think oftentimes we as artists are constantly fighting to be like. 546 00:32:41,645 --> 00:32:45,345 In the conversation in the room when it comes to issues of 547 00:32:45,835 --> 00:32:50,585 systemic exclusion or inclusion, financial exclusion and inclusion. 548 00:32:50,815 --> 00:32:53,815 And I guess my question is like, what is the message or the thought that 549 00:32:53,815 --> 00:32:57,595 you have for folks who still don't quite understand why it's important 550 00:32:57,615 --> 00:33:02,725 for artists to be integrally involved in creating new systems that are 551 00:33:02,735 --> 00:33:04,505 genuinely inclusive and equitable? 552 00:33:04,515 --> 00:33:07,955 Like what is your take on why it's important to center artists and 553 00:33:07,965 --> 00:33:12,535 creatives as we build out what future. 554 00:33:12,945 --> 00:33:16,585 Mia: I've always said that, uh, artists are world creators. 555 00:33:16,885 --> 00:33:20,995 If you are foreseeing what we should be doing in another 20 556 00:33:21,005 --> 00:33:24,925 years, uh, artists probably already thought about it 50 years ago. 557 00:33:25,365 --> 00:33:29,664 They're probably somebody who has written it down and has a whole 558 00:33:29,665 --> 00:33:31,695 protocol on how you should do it. 559 00:33:31,715 --> 00:33:33,135 And they are usually an artist. 560 00:33:33,815 --> 00:33:36,685 Um, and I think that's because we're not just visionaries, 561 00:33:36,725 --> 00:33:38,485 we're also interpreters, right? 562 00:33:38,495 --> 00:33:42,525 So even the knowledge that I've gained from being in the cohort with Future 563 00:33:42,525 --> 00:33:48,124 Money and even from the practices I've had at MAD and my own practices and 564 00:33:48,124 --> 00:33:52,075 teaching at Parsons and working with like Carnegie Hall, all the different 565 00:33:52,305 --> 00:33:53,595 organizations I've worked with. 566 00:33:54,105 --> 00:33:58,425 They enrich the ways in which I'm thinking about the dynamism of the 567 00:33:58,425 --> 00:34:02,284 communities that we have, but also because I'm an artist, I'm able to 568 00:34:02,285 --> 00:34:06,355 see the little corners of things that nobody's thinking about, right? 569 00:34:06,385 --> 00:34:11,914 So the ways in which I'm able to interpret my vision and the grab the 570 00:34:11,914 --> 00:34:15,935 themes that we're focusing on and the problem solving that needs to happen, 571 00:34:15,935 --> 00:34:19,435 because I think what ends up happening is we're so focused on, Oh yeah, it's. 572 00:34:19,660 --> 00:34:22,840 It's got to be technology or we're so focused on, Oh, it's got to be 573 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,610 art, but you don't realize that all these things overlap anyway. 574 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:29,589 They overlap. 575 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:30,920 It's a melange. 576 00:34:31,350 --> 00:34:32,490 Yeah. 577 00:34:32,630 --> 00:34:37,770 Like we should want it to, and that's what makes it so beautiful and dynamic is when 578 00:34:37,770 --> 00:34:45,300 we are intricately arguing, debating about how these things can kind of birth anew. 579 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,499 So I feel like artists in ourselves, we get a bad rep. 580 00:34:48,720 --> 00:34:52,980 Because we are, yeah, we're expensive in our thought. 581 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,260 But if we're not, then we're already limited, right? 582 00:34:56,260 --> 00:34:58,900 Because if I'm only talking to a finance person about the 583 00:34:58,970 --> 00:35:02,949 future of the world, they're only thinking about it through finance. 584 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,290 It's not about value, right? 585 00:35:05,299 --> 00:35:08,684 Because what we're talking about is the interpretation of value. 586 00:35:09,165 --> 00:35:12,635 And not just the commodification of value. 587 00:35:13,255 --> 00:35:18,365 So yeah, I think artists, as long as we keep doing what we've been doing and not 588 00:35:18,365 --> 00:35:22,154 looking for anybody else to tell us what we're supposed to be doing, it will always 589 00:35:22,154 --> 00:35:24,005 happen because the ideas come from us. 590 00:35:24,345 --> 00:35:25,284 So there's that. 591 00:35:25,335 --> 00:35:26,535 Hollis: That's true. 592 00:35:26,575 --> 00:35:28,655 I really love the way you phrase that. 593 00:35:30,335 --> 00:35:33,335 And I think that's a, that's a really poignant way to end this. 594 00:35:33,875 --> 00:35:37,055 Episode, because I think a lot of what we're talking about, like what 595 00:35:37,055 --> 00:35:41,505 interledger foundation is focused on is this whole point of value and the 596 00:35:41,505 --> 00:35:43,705 intrinsic value of each individual. 597 00:35:43,705 --> 00:35:48,235 And that it's not just like that your net worth defines how valuable you are 598 00:35:48,235 --> 00:35:53,794 in society or how value, you know, that a bank can determine like how valuable a 599 00:35:54,024 --> 00:35:58,855 person is, but being far more expansive about what it means to be valuable. 600 00:35:59,485 --> 00:36:01,975 And respecting and recognizing, even in 601 00:36:01,995 --> 00:36:03,925 Mia: that structure, it changes on a daily basis. 602 00:36:04,395 --> 00:36:04,915 Hollis: That's right. 603 00:36:05,235 --> 00:36:09,585 Mia: Like the euro versus the dollar versus yen, it changes on a regular basis. 604 00:36:09,595 --> 00:36:12,074 So why would I be going? 605 00:36:13,185 --> 00:36:13,705 Hollis: Exactly. 606 00:36:13,935 --> 00:36:14,565 Totally. 607 00:36:14,605 --> 00:36:19,364 Mia: When in certain communities, yeah, certain like a woven cloth is 608 00:36:19,384 --> 00:36:22,824 valuable, just as valuable as a dollar. 609 00:36:22,834 --> 00:36:28,210 So it depends on What artists or what interpretation aspect 610 00:36:28,270 --> 00:36:29,510 you're coming at, for sure. 611 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:30,350 Hollis: That's so real. 612 00:36:30,350 --> 00:36:34,480 But I think just like what I'm left with to reflect on and to feel emboldened 613 00:36:34,490 --> 00:36:41,390 by is that like artists and creatives, they, we reset and redefine what value 614 00:36:41,410 --> 00:36:45,450 means and recognize that like value is not what you have in your bank account 615 00:36:45,470 --> 00:36:49,120 or like value is not the passport that you hold or passport, you know, like 616 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,050 any of these kinds of state defined. 617 00:36:51,735 --> 00:36:53,175 Mechanisms of 618 00:36:54,925 --> 00:36:55,055 devaluing 619 00:36:55,155 --> 00:37:00,175 Hollis: individuals on the margin and like how can like creatives really allow for 620 00:37:00,225 --> 00:37:05,495 a dignity and a value to emerge and to be defined for ourselves and our communities. 621 00:37:05,514 --> 00:37:08,904 So thank you, Mia, so much for our conversation here. 622 00:37:08,905 --> 00:37:10,304 This has been wonderful. 623 00:37:10,504 --> 00:37:10,864 guys! 624 00:37:10,865 --> 00:37:11,704 You did it! 625 00:37:12,074 --> 00:37:12,974 We got it together! 626 00:37:13,134 --> 00:37:16,149 Right on! 627 00:37:16,149 --> 00:37:19,014 Yay! 628 00:37:24,775 --> 00:37:26,585 Lawil: Thank you for listening to this episode. 629 00:37:26,885 --> 00:37:27,115 I'm 630 00:37:27,125 --> 00:37:27,555 Hollis: LaVille. 631 00:37:27,785 --> 00:37:28,215 I'm Hollis. 632 00:37:28,735 --> 00:37:32,575 And of course, make sure to subscribe and like our podcast on Spotify, Apple 633 00:37:32,575 --> 00:37:34,225 Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 634 00:37:35,195 --> 00:37:37,584 Lawil: To learn more about the Interledger Foundation, just 635 00:37:37,584 --> 00:37:39,375 visit our website, interledger. 636 00:37:39,375 --> 00:37:43,275 org, where you can find all published episodes, and of course, more information 637 00:37:43,285 --> 00:37:47,095 on our guests, grant programs, and other Interledger resources.