1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,530 Ana: It shows the ideological context of the books that they share, all of 2 00:00:08,530 --> 00:00:14,289 them, even if some of them are more, as Felipe told us, like, more, you know, 3 00:00:14,429 --> 00:00:17,619 accurate in the financial way of thinking. 4 00:00:17,620 --> 00:00:22,970 But in the ideological part, they are all the same. 5 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:28,630 They think the world divided between rich and not rich. 6 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:35,499 And, uh, if you want to get in the part of the rich, you have to do three, four, 7 00:00:35,499 --> 00:00:38,390 five things, you know, like priorities. 8 00:00:39,350 --> 00:00:44,239 And, uh, if you make a summary, it's, uh, feel rich. 9 00:00:45,055 --> 00:00:49,245 have debts, dress like a rich person, do all the stuff and 10 00:00:49,545 --> 00:00:50,695 probably you're going to be rich. 11 00:00:55,695 --> 00:00:58,625 Hollis: You are listening to another episode of the Future Money Podcast 12 00:00:58,665 --> 00:01:02,525 presented by the Interledger Foundation, where we invite people of all backgrounds 13 00:01:02,525 --> 00:01:05,855 and disciplines to imagine what a financially inclusive future might be. 14 00:01:06,334 --> 00:01:06,925 I'm Hollis 15 00:01:06,934 --> 00:01:07,415 Lawil: Wong Ware. 16 00:01:07,884 --> 00:01:09,039 And I'm Lobo Karama. 17 00:01:09,039 --> 00:01:12,199 Today, we're in conversation with Felipe Bruges, Ana Rodriguez, or 18 00:01:12,300 --> 00:01:15,619 Juan Carlos León, a collective of artists, researchers, and urban 19 00:01:15,619 --> 00:01:17,410 designers based in Mexico City. 20 00:01:17,699 --> 00:01:20,309 Hollis: In this episode, we will delve into their work, Resimulate. 21 00:01:20,750 --> 00:01:24,570 This piece explores the psychology and philosophies of pop culture economics. 22 00:01:24,675 --> 00:01:28,435 to generate individual wealth, popular and self help business literature and 23 00:01:28,435 --> 00:01:32,455 various worldwide political policies and explore the tension and creates within 24 00:01:32,455 --> 00:01:34,585 economic systems that reinforce disparity. 25 00:01:35,255 --> 00:01:38,975 Lawil: We simulate employees, interactive computational simulations 26 00:01:38,984 --> 00:01:43,634 of economic models to inform 3d printed sculptures fabricated with clay. 27 00:01:44,795 --> 00:01:46,815 So welcome to the future money podcast. 28 00:01:46,855 --> 00:01:48,795 Uh, Juan Carlos, Anna Felipe. 29 00:01:49,350 --> 00:01:51,050 We're very happy to have you here today. 30 00:01:51,110 --> 00:01:52,860 Uh, let's start with introducing yourself. 31 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,210 Felipe: So I'm Felipe Brugues. 32 00:01:55,210 --> 00:01:58,119 I'm a researcher and a professor here in Mexico City. 33 00:01:58,670 --> 00:02:04,879 I study things related to economics, uh, finance, and in general 34 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,789 economic development focused in Latin American countries like 35 00:02:08,969 --> 00:02:11,039 Ecuador, Colombia, and Mexico. 36 00:02:18,899 --> 00:02:20,390 Chris: I am Juan Carlos León. 37 00:02:20,839 --> 00:02:25,260 I am a visual artist who has resided in Mexico, um, well, almost five years now. 38 00:02:25,799 --> 00:02:30,759 My work has to do with, um, the generation of projects that review from the, the 39 00:02:30,759 --> 00:02:35,209 technical environment and the dynamics of technology, but at the thematic level. 40 00:02:35,935 --> 00:02:41,475 It explores the process of exploitation, research into materialities, and 41 00:02:41,475 --> 00:02:45,225 how these are linked to both social dynamics and artistic experience. 42 00:02:45,774 --> 00:02:48,555 Well, yes, my career has been set more in Latin America. 43 00:02:48,904 --> 00:02:54,225 I have exhibited, or my work has been presented in Brazil, Colombia, Mexico, 44 00:02:54,385 --> 00:02:56,765 well, also Spain and the United States. 45 00:02:57,105 --> 00:02:58,445 Well, that's kind of my job. 46 00:02:58,795 --> 00:03:01,095 And Anna, I've known her for a long time. 47 00:03:01,165 --> 00:03:02,365 And here, Anna. 48 00:03:02,795 --> 00:03:07,545 Ana: Hello, my name is Ana Rodriguez, art curator and researcher. 49 00:03:07,745 --> 00:03:11,475 I work in art, culture and urban studies. 50 00:03:12,275 --> 00:03:19,245 Actually, I am part of a group of consult, consultancy in those things, 51 00:03:19,325 --> 00:03:22,615 culture, urban studies, public policies. 52 00:03:23,084 --> 00:03:30,074 It's called Urban Front and we work from there to try to help local 53 00:03:30,114 --> 00:03:32,324 governments in their public policies. 54 00:03:33,494 --> 00:03:38,475 In this case, I am working as a curator with, uh, Felipe and Juan Carlos. 55 00:03:39,255 --> 00:03:41,835 And, uh, it's been very nice, very nice. 56 00:03:41,865 --> 00:03:46,575 I, I know Juan Carlos since a long time, 15 years perhaps. 57 00:03:46,904 --> 00:03:54,224 I know all his work, his artwork, and also his interests, uh, about, 58 00:03:54,284 --> 00:03:56,265 uh, economics and, and data. 59 00:03:56,715 --> 00:03:57,775 and processing data. 60 00:03:58,364 --> 00:04:02,545 And this is how I met Felipe that is part of this team. 61 00:04:02,624 --> 00:04:11,465 And we just try to cross our knowledges and practices to get, uh, resimulate. 62 00:04:12,234 --> 00:04:13,514 Hollis: Thank you so much for sharing. 63 00:04:13,514 --> 00:04:16,905 And we're so excited to have you here on this podcast. 64 00:04:16,915 --> 00:04:21,565 And we were thrilled to have you as part of the future money cohort and 65 00:04:21,565 --> 00:04:24,385 to see your work, um, be displayed at. 66 00:04:24,965 --> 00:04:28,875 Um, the Interledger Summit in Costa Rica, um, Felipe and Ana were there. 67 00:04:28,955 --> 00:04:30,295 Juan Carlos, we missed you. 68 00:04:30,625 --> 00:04:32,085 Lowell and I would love to hear more. 69 00:04:32,495 --> 00:04:35,755 Um, I think you said, um, Ana and Juan Carlos, you've 70 00:04:35,755 --> 00:04:37,185 known each other for a while. 71 00:04:37,444 --> 00:04:41,655 So I'm curious how this collaboration, because Three of you come from three 72 00:04:41,705 --> 00:04:46,035 pretty, pretty different worlds intersecting, but research, art 73 00:04:46,545 --> 00:04:49,554 curation, and really urban planning. 74 00:04:49,924 --> 00:04:53,834 I'm curious how you all came together to create this project 75 00:04:53,834 --> 00:04:55,445 and where that idea was born. 76 00:05:00,479 --> 00:05:02,789 Chris: I think it all started with an invitation from Anna. 77 00:05:03,770 --> 00:05:07,729 I had already been working on various technological art projects 78 00:05:07,729 --> 00:05:12,679 or related to culture, and Anna, we started to think about a project. 79 00:05:13,595 --> 00:05:15,935 I had a friendly relationship here with Philippe. 80 00:05:16,115 --> 00:05:18,505 We had good conversations about artistic practice. 81 00:05:18,895 --> 00:05:23,034 I think it is very complex and to find professionals in various disciplines who 82 00:05:23,034 --> 00:05:25,764 can provide ideas and converse about them. 83 00:05:26,165 --> 00:05:30,374 I think Philippe is sensitive to that, apart from he has been developing his 84 00:05:30,375 --> 00:05:35,395 artistic practice in a very particular way in, in, in the sound area. 85 00:05:35,735 --> 00:05:37,905 He also has experience with other projects. 86 00:05:38,125 --> 00:05:40,035 So I think we started to have dialogue. 87 00:05:40,035 --> 00:05:43,495 And I think the summit fits perfectly with our experience. 88 00:05:43,805 --> 00:05:47,934 And that is how we began thinking about the future of the economy of financial 89 00:05:47,935 --> 00:05:52,254 inclusion, each one from our spectrums of how we understand it, but also 90 00:05:52,254 --> 00:05:54,185 from trying to find common reality. 91 00:05:54,385 --> 00:05:57,455 So that's how the collaboration began with Anna and with Philippe. 92 00:05:58,425 --> 00:06:00,595 I don't know if you want to contribute anything more here. 93 00:06:00,935 --> 00:06:06,215 Felipe: So then I met Anna through through the project, and so on 94 00:06:06,215 --> 00:06:07,715 Carlos is our connecting point. 95 00:06:08,195 --> 00:06:13,955 And when I, I think I didn't I didn't know on Carlos art, too long ago, I 96 00:06:14,094 --> 00:06:18,544 went to a gallery, and I saw something that looked like a, like an economics. 97 00:06:19,190 --> 00:06:19,770 Diagram. 98 00:06:19,969 --> 00:06:22,130 And I was like, what is this? 99 00:06:22,130 --> 00:06:26,409 And then it turned out to be that it was like some study that Foncarlo had 100 00:06:26,409 --> 00:06:31,859 done many, many years ago about kind of like, I think he used to study not 101 00:06:31,859 --> 00:06:35,929 that much anymore, but a lot about how oil processes and exploitation used 102 00:06:35,939 --> 00:06:40,879 to work in terms of exploitation of resources in Ecuador and Latin America. 103 00:06:41,455 --> 00:06:44,155 And that was very, very nice to see someone doing 104 00:06:44,155 --> 00:06:45,265 something related to economics. 105 00:06:45,804 --> 00:06:48,995 When I met him here, when I moved here, I actually met him here. 106 00:06:49,325 --> 00:06:50,515 He changed what he was doing. 107 00:06:50,525 --> 00:06:53,735 He was no longer doing data related stuff. 108 00:06:54,465 --> 00:06:58,115 Uh, actually, like the works that he's currently working on 109 00:06:58,144 --> 00:06:59,715 are not related to this at all. 110 00:06:59,994 --> 00:07:03,545 But at some point we started talking about doing maybe something that 111 00:07:03,745 --> 00:07:08,190 intersects, even though it's not Some of his old work that intersects kind of 112 00:07:08,230 --> 00:07:13,710 what I do with data analysis and what he does with the data analysis as well. 113 00:07:14,179 --> 00:07:19,240 And with Anna, we met through the project, but it was really nice to also see how 114 00:07:19,570 --> 00:07:23,959 the way that she would think about how to even conceive the project was very 115 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:25,680 rigorous as if we were doing research. 116 00:07:25,980 --> 00:07:29,870 So we had like these really nice classes where Anna would like We 117 00:07:29,870 --> 00:07:32,730 were like, okay, let's think about what is the definition of data. 118 00:07:33,050 --> 00:07:36,630 And let's, let's go through like philosophical discussion about what 119 00:07:36,700 --> 00:07:40,550 data representation actually means in terms of politics and stuff like that. 120 00:07:40,810 --> 00:07:44,259 So it turns out to be that like the methodology we all shared 121 00:07:44,589 --> 00:07:48,029 had a lot of like commonalities that could be complimentary. 122 00:07:48,730 --> 00:07:50,970 Hollis: Felipe, I love this idea of. 123 00:07:51,619 --> 00:07:55,199 Yeah, just kind of taking something that can be very like dry and 124 00:07:55,199 --> 00:08:00,840 analytical and then thinking about like what kind of impact it can have 125 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:04,789 like philosophically but also in a real way and then showing up as art. 126 00:08:05,020 --> 00:08:09,685 For Anna, I'm curious like, entering into this collaboration, meeting Felipe for 127 00:08:09,685 --> 00:08:14,355 the first time, like what was motivating you, um, to be a part of this project? 128 00:08:14,755 --> 00:08:20,734 Ana: So for me, it was great because, um, I've been working with data, uh, 129 00:08:20,734 --> 00:08:27,544 with a lot of researchers, but, uh, it was really the first time I'm inside a 130 00:08:27,544 --> 00:08:33,515 process where I can put like questions on the table that are normally, you 131 00:08:33,515 --> 00:08:38,205 know, when you do research, very, In a very rigorous manner, you have 132 00:08:38,255 --> 00:08:41,055 to do this, like research questions. 133 00:08:41,954 --> 00:08:47,785 And, but normally in art processes, most of the time you are, um, making, 134 00:08:48,015 --> 00:08:52,654 making these part, like an obvious part that we don't need that part, then we 135 00:08:52,654 --> 00:08:57,354 don't need these time of thinking and researching and reading and sharing 136 00:08:57,395 --> 00:08:59,664 concepts and discussing about concepts. 137 00:09:00,324 --> 00:09:06,995 So, um, what it was great for me is that they were, uh, both of them, Felipe and 138 00:09:06,995 --> 00:09:13,254 Juan Carlos open to have this kind of discussion, uh, to have this kind of, um, 139 00:09:13,405 --> 00:09:18,204 you know, making like a, a deep processes that is part of the creation process. 140 00:09:18,994 --> 00:09:25,915 So, um, this was really nice because in a conceptual way or philosophical way, 141 00:09:26,324 --> 00:09:31,704 we put some things on the table that we needed to be together to have like common 142 00:09:31,714 --> 00:09:37,104 questions about, for example, that data is something that we need to redefine. 143 00:09:37,620 --> 00:09:43,600 that, uh, is a problem in, um, uh, research, even if it is, uh, scientific 144 00:09:43,750 --> 00:09:51,150 or very, you know, like very, um, hard science, even in hard science, 145 00:09:51,189 --> 00:09:56,829 there's a problem about how to process data, uh, in, I don't know, medicine 146 00:09:56,900 --> 00:09:59,329 or, or economics or financial. 147 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:04,790 But also that was why we were able to play with data. 148 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:13,345 And in the same time, these game needed to be very settled on, uh, good base so 149 00:10:13,345 --> 00:10:19,945 we can, you know, uh, exploit and, uh, explore different ways and different 150 00:10:19,945 --> 00:10:26,205 questions that could bring us to our first need or desire in the, in the 151 00:10:26,205 --> 00:10:33,265 process that was working with these common understanding of what is financial 152 00:10:33,605 --> 00:10:37,255 knowledge and self financial aid. 153 00:10:37,785 --> 00:10:43,165 And to do that, We were, we were going to play the game, but by 154 00:10:43,505 --> 00:10:48,114 knowing very well the rules of that game and understanding how these 155 00:10:48,635 --> 00:10:53,635 epistemological questions are, were going to be put in the base of our work. 156 00:10:53,975 --> 00:10:59,235 So, um, to have an economist that is researching and teaching in Mexico. 157 00:10:59,595 --> 00:11:05,705 Me going from Quito to Mexico, Juan Carlos got, we, three of us are moving 158 00:11:05,735 --> 00:11:07,984 between Ecuador and, and Mexico city. 159 00:11:07,985 --> 00:11:14,105 And then it was like a nice way to, to, I don't know, to do something together 160 00:11:14,555 --> 00:11:17,834 with a very interesting, you know, result. 161 00:11:17,885 --> 00:11:23,735 And also with a perspective of future that was, uh, also. 162 00:11:24,205 --> 00:11:25,605 something interesting. 163 00:11:26,015 --> 00:11:31,375 There was a work, a piece of art that was going to get out of this discussion, 164 00:11:31,415 --> 00:11:36,505 but also like a, like a future thinking about data and how to represent, 165 00:11:36,515 --> 00:11:40,604 like, you know, physical object, these, uh, these kinds of questions. 166 00:11:40,684 --> 00:11:45,864 So it was really nice to have an economist, an artist working. 167 00:11:45,904 --> 00:11:48,384 And I'm like, I'm not really a curator here. 168 00:11:48,424 --> 00:11:52,584 I'm, I'm like a, like a bridge, you know, like an, like a connector. 169 00:11:53,075 --> 00:12:00,885 of ideas and, uh, not only ideas, I mean, in a very symbolic or ethereous 170 00:12:00,905 --> 00:12:06,554 way, but in a very practical manner of representing things also in the space, you 171 00:12:06,564 --> 00:12:13,214 know, like in the gallery, in the room, in the mediation of the senses it can take. 172 00:12:13,305 --> 00:12:13,485 So, 173 00:12:14,245 --> 00:12:17,185 Lawil: The formation of your collective sounds so very natural. 174 00:12:17,195 --> 00:12:21,205 Was there a difference between the process and the entire creation of the project 175 00:12:21,205 --> 00:12:26,554 Juan Carlos: Resimulate? 176 00:12:26,815 --> 00:12:29,434 Chris: This has been a similar process, very organic. 177 00:12:29,445 --> 00:12:31,584 It has been like just a methodology. 178 00:12:31,594 --> 00:12:34,795 It surpasses the work or comes from the work. 179 00:12:35,375 --> 00:12:37,955 Rather, it's a building around exploration. 180 00:12:38,090 --> 00:12:42,260 Not only the exploration in terms of the technical level, uh, which is 181 00:12:42,260 --> 00:12:46,389 fundamental part of, because in the end, as Anna said, it ends in, in an 182 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,840 exhibition process, it ends in a gallery. 183 00:12:49,060 --> 00:12:50,179 It is an object. 184 00:12:50,179 --> 00:12:54,749 It's this shape, but this is also like all the sides of the information that 185 00:12:54,749 --> 00:12:58,790 we're going to measure the data, but there's also a part where you have to. 186 00:12:59,379 --> 00:13:05,259 mediated a lot, which is this speculative part that has to do with self help and 187 00:13:05,259 --> 00:13:09,050 with all these texts, which serves to structure the revision of the data. 188 00:13:09,579 --> 00:13:13,409 I think we have been finding dynamics of how to use this data. 189 00:13:13,430 --> 00:13:14,869 We continue to structure it. 190 00:13:15,099 --> 00:13:18,829 I think that the last time with Philippe and with the experience with the 191 00:13:18,829 --> 00:13:22,469 printer and now the experience with the printer these days, the situation 192 00:13:22,469 --> 00:13:27,289 of the data, and again, we are going to rethink, but always under the line, 193 00:13:27,319 --> 00:13:29,499 which is the line that I think unites us. 194 00:13:30,285 --> 00:13:34,345 I'm going to repeat myself where the philosophical part that Anna mentioned 195 00:13:34,345 --> 00:13:39,165 unites us with the data experience by Philippe, which is speculation in 196 00:13:39,165 --> 00:13:43,194 terms of the experience and of the text that we are using, the types of 197 00:13:43,195 --> 00:13:47,604 profiling that we are using for the data, which is very speculative and also 198 00:13:47,604 --> 00:13:49,835 to imagine possibilities of the future. 199 00:13:50,125 --> 00:13:54,795 But also to enable us to review realities, the data is being worked on. 200 00:13:55,305 --> 00:13:58,135 Felipe: For me, the one thing that is strikingly different is that 201 00:13:58,975 --> 00:14:03,405 when I'm thinking about a research project, I do have a thesis that I 202 00:14:03,405 --> 00:14:06,385 want to prove or somehow support. 203 00:14:06,995 --> 00:14:10,169 And the way that I was approaching this is through the thesis. 204 00:14:10,620 --> 00:14:15,390 And I, I was trying to be flexible and allow the, the, whatever conclusion that 205 00:14:15,390 --> 00:14:19,929 it be like the simulations didn't have anything pre programmed to do anything. 206 00:14:20,460 --> 00:14:25,719 It was just what the data was telling us through iterations of lives in this 207 00:14:25,749 --> 00:14:27,550 thing and it would be as it would be. 208 00:14:27,969 --> 00:14:32,360 So we didn't have any prior of what should be the answer, but I thought that 209 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:37,599 there should be some answer and trying to then link this into how to translate. 210 00:14:37,930 --> 00:14:41,590 These type of simulations into artwork. 211 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:47,219 I feel that that's kind of a place that we still need to even further 212 00:14:47,349 --> 00:14:53,209 explore in a way that like the artwork doesn't become just this didactic thing 213 00:14:53,209 --> 00:14:57,279 of like, let me teach you something in a way that is like, like a school, 214 00:14:57,569 --> 00:15:01,089 but somehow that it transcends that and like brings up something that 215 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:02,920 couldn't be seen without the artwork. 216 00:15:03,505 --> 00:15:06,925 And I think that's the part where the methodologies are 217 00:15:06,945 --> 00:15:08,925 kind of all in the in conflict. 218 00:15:09,385 --> 00:15:09,405 Um, 219 00:15:11,505 --> 00:15:14,055 and I think that's kind of where we haven't resolved it yet. 220 00:15:14,064 --> 00:15:18,264 And, and that's maybe that's why we haven't, at least I don't have a correct, 221 00:15:19,105 --> 00:15:20,354 kind of fully fledged answer for this. 222 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,420 Ana: Perhaps there's something that is interesting in these, 223 00:15:24,569 --> 00:15:26,319 uh, methodological part. 224 00:15:26,850 --> 00:15:33,389 That is, there are like, um, questions about, I'm opening my 225 00:15:33,389 --> 00:15:37,560 notes because I have like a, you know, like notes from the process. 226 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,544 And one of the questions we were talking about in the beginning was, About the, 227 00:15:42,574 --> 00:15:50,425 the, the, the place that data has in, uh, in philosophy now, for example, 228 00:15:50,884 --> 00:15:59,685 when you talk about, um, um, IA, you can think a lot of processing data by, 229 00:15:59,764 --> 00:16:02,564 uh, artificial intelligence, right? 230 00:16:02,914 --> 00:16:05,974 So we were thinking about how this IA can. 231 00:16:06,555 --> 00:16:10,725 take the place of the human, but only in a partial way because 232 00:16:10,725 --> 00:16:12,265 of this conscience problem. 233 00:16:12,715 --> 00:16:18,855 And when it is related to art, and I think also to politics, uh, there's 234 00:16:18,855 --> 00:16:24,375 the question about the relation, uh, between imagination and conscience. 235 00:16:24,954 --> 00:16:31,020 So, uh, For me, and I was telling them, when you do all the way like in a 236 00:16:31,250 --> 00:16:36,479 very West philosophical tradition that puts data in the place that occupies 237 00:16:36,479 --> 00:16:42,469 now very important and data producing data by artificial intelligence, you 238 00:16:42,469 --> 00:16:48,520 also can say from this same place and tradition that you can put these, uh, 239 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,689 in, in kind of, uh, open question. 240 00:16:52,665 --> 00:16:56,265 that has these issues. 241 00:16:56,285 --> 00:17:00,675 For example, the time that we are living, that is a very hard time, let's 242 00:17:00,675 --> 00:17:06,204 say, this is a catastrophic time, put us in the way to make those questions. 243 00:17:06,785 --> 00:17:14,665 Also put us in this particular project in the, in the condition of thinking 244 00:17:14,675 --> 00:17:23,619 about the way of how imagination is going to reshape our concept of data and I 245 00:17:23,619 --> 00:17:29,820 think this is the relation between one, uh, like rigorous methodological way of 246 00:17:29,850 --> 00:17:35,570 processing data and a very artistic and political way of doing this processing. 247 00:17:36,079 --> 00:17:42,009 So it's a place of how we put this imagination path in the method. 248 00:17:43,025 --> 00:17:45,055 So you're questioning the ontology. 249 00:17:45,475 --> 00:17:45,885 Yes. 250 00:17:46,254 --> 00:17:53,274 One of the articles we shared, uh, that I found was, uh, based on Virilio 251 00:17:53,314 --> 00:17:58,734 thinking about these kind of things and, uh, research made, uh, you 252 00:17:58,734 --> 00:18:03,764 know, asking a survey in different kind of, of, uh, ways of using data. 253 00:18:04,175 --> 00:18:10,775 And all the scientists were saying that, that They pass 80, 70 or 80 percent of 254 00:18:10,775 --> 00:18:17,155 their time processing data that in the final moment is not really processed. 255 00:18:17,235 --> 00:18:22,374 There's a subjective part of this processing and in the last part of their 256 00:18:22,375 --> 00:18:29,560 work, they are saying, Our questions or our first hypotheses are the same and 257 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:35,370 data finally, it's only illustrating in a lot of cases what we already knew 258 00:18:36,389 --> 00:18:38,679 and this way of having those answers. 259 00:18:39,379 --> 00:18:44,600 tons of data now are not as useful as we thought. 260 00:18:44,790 --> 00:18:51,490 It's a lot of time put on this that we need to to contest or to 261 00:18:51,500 --> 00:18:55,900 have new questions about how we process and how we produce data. 262 00:18:57,439 --> 00:19:01,010 So we were reading about that and that was a very important 263 00:19:01,020 --> 00:19:03,030 part of the of the reflection. 264 00:19:03,595 --> 00:19:08,854 Because, uh, you cannot only play with data, saying that you are in 265 00:19:08,854 --> 00:19:13,824 an artistic process, so you have the right to play with no rules. 266 00:19:14,185 --> 00:19:18,684 This was a game with rules, because we needed to think about rules 267 00:19:18,735 --> 00:19:22,764 and how to change these rules, or this kind of thinking about data. 268 00:19:23,795 --> 00:19:27,465 Talking to economists or to financial experts. 269 00:19:27,905 --> 00:19:32,875 That was our really nice part in Costa Rica because we had all this feedback 270 00:19:33,355 --> 00:19:38,695 coming from this kind of, of thinking that is not only, oh, those are artists that 271 00:19:38,704 --> 00:19:41,754 are playing their game in their field. 272 00:19:42,135 --> 00:19:47,505 We were trying to have some kind of of dialogue in this sense. 273 00:19:47,595 --> 00:19:50,595 So this was important also because of that. 274 00:19:51,074 --> 00:19:51,614 Hollis: I love that. 275 00:19:51,645 --> 00:19:55,064 'cause it sounds like the whole process started, as Juan Carlos 276 00:19:55,070 --> 00:19:56,564 said, with dialogue, right? 277 00:19:56,564 --> 00:20:02,105 With conversation with problematizing, how things usually are. 278 00:20:02,679 --> 00:20:05,509 And I think like what you were saying, Felipe, is that data often 279 00:20:05,509 --> 00:20:10,409 is used to prove the thesis is we have a story and then we use data. 280 00:20:11,090 --> 00:20:14,120 Get rid of all the data that doesn't help us make our point. 281 00:20:14,540 --> 00:20:16,510 And here's all the data that helps us make our point. 282 00:20:16,810 --> 00:20:20,090 And what I heard with, um, what Juan Carlos said, and what all of you are 283 00:20:20,090 --> 00:20:25,774 saying is that, you know, Oftentimes there's this kind of, um, this 284 00:20:25,965 --> 00:20:28,014 false sense of certainty with data. 285 00:20:28,034 --> 00:20:30,024 Like, Oh, this is the way things are. 286 00:20:30,024 --> 00:20:31,264 And data is King. 287 00:20:31,514 --> 00:20:34,345 And even what you were saying on it, that there's, there's some sort of 288 00:20:34,355 --> 00:20:40,655 merit in a dehumanized way of presenting fact finding versus acknowledging and 289 00:20:40,655 --> 00:20:43,274 embracing there is fiction in all of this. 290 00:20:43,315 --> 00:20:44,645 And how are we using data? 291 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,990 not just to create other fictions, but also to think about simulations 292 00:20:49,990 --> 00:20:54,509 and speculations, as Juan Carlos was saying, um, and to think and to ask 293 00:20:54,509 --> 00:20:56,820 questions rather than to prove points. 294 00:20:57,170 --> 00:21:01,069 Um, and I think before we continue, so I have a question for you, Juan 295 00:21:01,069 --> 00:21:05,420 Carlos, and for all of you, um, I'd love for you to explain the experience 296 00:21:05,445 --> 00:21:09,045 Resimulate for those who didn't have the opportunity to see the art in person. 297 00:21:09,435 --> 00:21:12,725 Lowell and I had the opportunity to experience it in person in Costa Rica, 298 00:21:12,755 --> 00:21:16,955 um, but for those who have yet to have that opportunity, could you explain what 299 00:21:16,975 --> 00:21:20,774 is Resimulate, what is the installation, um, and what was it like for the 300 00:21:20,774 --> 00:21:22,384 viewer to see and understand this work? 301 00:21:23,110 --> 00:21:30,739 Juan Carlos: Well, 302 00:21:30,740 --> 00:21:34,550 Chris: it's good that you had the material experience there in Costa Rica. 303 00:21:34,579 --> 00:21:35,340 I didn't have it. 304 00:21:35,590 --> 00:21:37,810 Rather, we were doing remote work as well. 305 00:21:37,930 --> 00:21:42,879 Ana and Felipe's experience, well, they were very good at taking on the challenge 306 00:21:42,899 --> 00:21:44,869 of setting up such a complex space. 307 00:21:45,139 --> 00:21:48,679 Like the video hotel space, or the hotel room, or whatever. 308 00:21:48,679 --> 00:21:52,815 It That's on, that's on one hand, but the artistic material experience of 309 00:21:52,815 --> 00:21:57,085 how this data is going to be displayed, it's like how it's being planned. 310 00:21:57,105 --> 00:21:59,065 It's going to have another experience. 311 00:21:59,405 --> 00:22:03,864 This was like, it was really like a very small taste, like a small 312 00:22:03,864 --> 00:22:08,155 experience of how we are using the 3d printer and how we are using the 313 00:22:08,165 --> 00:22:12,155 matter and how we are interested in the viewer can reach it to it. 314 00:22:12,830 --> 00:22:17,510 We just, um, with Felipe and Ana and, and after the trip to Costa Rica, we 315 00:22:17,510 --> 00:22:21,379 met and we had a little feedback on how the viewer would approach the data. 316 00:22:21,805 --> 00:22:25,515 And hey, what are we missing precisely within the artistic experience? 317 00:22:25,745 --> 00:22:26,935 Understand the data. 318 00:22:27,265 --> 00:22:30,655 It's like, I think the levels of planning, the artistic experience 319 00:22:30,655 --> 00:22:33,604 have varied a little, which is preparing us for the future. 320 00:22:33,935 --> 00:22:37,475 We're thinking about the shape of these empty ceramic towers and 321 00:22:37,475 --> 00:22:39,034 what they will look like in space. 322 00:22:39,365 --> 00:22:41,135 And what we try is fair. 323 00:22:41,175 --> 00:22:44,554 And that is part of the artistic, uh, experience, uh, 324 00:22:44,575 --> 00:22:45,855 from the aesthetic experience. 325 00:22:46,115 --> 00:22:47,284 And it's about building. 326 00:22:47,844 --> 00:22:50,594 How to generate that sensitivity in the viewer. 327 00:22:50,854 --> 00:22:52,014 How can we do that? 328 00:22:52,254 --> 00:22:55,735 That the viewer not only sees an object, but also is able 329 00:22:55,735 --> 00:22:57,324 to understand that dynamic. 330 00:22:57,364 --> 00:23:00,504 And I think we are building, I think it is part of the next challenge 331 00:23:00,504 --> 00:23:02,314 due to these artistic experiences. 332 00:23:03,165 --> 00:23:05,454 Hollis: Um, and Felipe, Ana would love to know if there's anything 333 00:23:05,454 --> 00:23:09,385 you'd like to add on in terms of like the experience of the piece. 334 00:23:09,685 --> 00:23:14,885 It was more than just the, um, even just the vessels of the 3D 335 00:23:14,885 --> 00:23:16,235 printing, and I'll probably ask that. 336 00:23:16,590 --> 00:23:19,900 Um, Juan Carlos, a follow up question about the materialism of it, but 337 00:23:20,190 --> 00:23:24,060 curious, Philippe and Ana, like, what was intended with the presentation of 338 00:23:24,060 --> 00:23:29,480 the installation beyond, um, the initial data visualization with the 3D printer? 339 00:23:30,135 --> 00:23:30,535 Felipe: Yes. 340 00:23:30,545 --> 00:23:37,435 So in, in our initial idea of kind of a proposal, we, we wanted to even 341 00:23:37,435 --> 00:23:43,094 have two, two 3d printers kind of battling against each other where 342 00:23:43,094 --> 00:23:47,075 we would, we would explore different economic systems against each other. 343 00:23:47,085 --> 00:23:49,405 Uh, and that was not going to be possible. 344 00:23:49,435 --> 00:23:54,605 So we had to pivot what we can do for the first exhibition and everything 345 00:23:54,765 --> 00:24:01,580 because Like the process I think has been extremely like thorough there's been like 346 00:24:02,330 --> 00:24:09,760 Thorough discussion, thorough research, uh, like thorough experimentation with 347 00:24:09,790 --> 00:24:15,909 the materials that, um, By the time that we had, we decided that it was 348 00:24:15,959 --> 00:24:19,229 going to be better to have some of like proof of concept type of thing 349 00:24:19,229 --> 00:24:24,499 of like, okay, we want to discuss, something related to financial inclusion. 350 00:24:24,499 --> 00:24:29,540 We want to discuss something related to these self help books, uh, using 351 00:24:29,540 --> 00:24:37,159 data in a way that is somehow poetic, but also somehow still rigorous in the 352 00:24:37,159 --> 00:24:43,555 sense that like, we don't lose Both sides and the 3d printing of objects 353 00:24:43,555 --> 00:24:45,885 allow us to kind of have control, right? 354 00:24:45,885 --> 00:24:48,235 Like machines have minute control over everything. 355 00:24:48,585 --> 00:24:50,814 We can control them through code. 356 00:24:51,254 --> 00:24:54,375 We can let the code talk by itself, and we can also try to 357 00:24:54,835 --> 00:24:56,645 let the machine talk by itself. 358 00:24:57,305 --> 00:24:59,529 Um, Or the materials. 359 00:24:59,930 --> 00:25:04,539 So we ended up creating these vessels that would be 3D representations 360 00:25:04,539 --> 00:25:06,209 of these complex simulations. 361 00:25:06,269 --> 00:25:11,949 And in the exhibition, we decided to have some reading guides that would 362 00:25:12,300 --> 00:25:17,735 allow people to Be able to decode these objects if they wanted to do so. 363 00:25:17,735 --> 00:25:23,695 Um, and we also decided to showcase kind of like the, through a 364 00:25:23,705 --> 00:25:28,294 video, what was the, the process of this, of this creation. 365 00:25:28,524 --> 00:25:32,764 So I think that was what we were doing as Juan Carlos said, this was like 366 00:25:33,094 --> 00:25:34,625 literally just a proof of concept. 367 00:25:35,205 --> 00:25:40,185 Uh, after it, like all of us had a lot of takeaways of where we can go. 368 00:25:40,955 --> 00:25:46,305 Um, so we're, we're excited about next steps on how to kind of keep pushing those 369 00:25:46,305 --> 00:25:51,425 boundaries of what is feasible in terms of like translating this digital realm 370 00:25:51,775 --> 00:25:56,994 that is not even a true representation as I was mentioning of, of reality, uh, 371 00:25:57,034 --> 00:26:03,034 and these speculations about futures in a way that it's, allows for the sensibility 372 00:26:03,374 --> 00:26:07,065 of the viewer to be kind of like taken. 373 00:26:08,774 --> 00:26:13,985 Ana: I wanted to add something about the setting up that was I love 374 00:26:14,065 --> 00:26:20,685 the setting up and it was amazing how these, uh, space, this room in 375 00:26:20,685 --> 00:26:23,125 the hotel, that is not a gallery. 376 00:26:23,125 --> 00:26:30,195 And it was a challenge to do that and how, and, and it's doing that because 377 00:26:30,205 --> 00:26:35,765 that's what I love because that was that space with this white light completely 378 00:26:35,845 --> 00:26:40,975 open and with this carpet and two days. 379 00:26:41,500 --> 00:26:44,530 after it was completely transformed. 380 00:26:45,330 --> 00:26:50,350 And, um, you know, the black, uh, curtains and, and all the stuff 381 00:26:50,390 --> 00:26:55,400 and the lightning, the, the drama, the, the, the, the dramatic part we 382 00:26:56,030 --> 00:26:59,310 uh, arrived, uh, was really nice. 383 00:26:59,340 --> 00:27:01,390 I was very happy with the setting up. 384 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:07,259 It was a challenge for all of us, but, uh, what happened with the space was, was 385 00:27:07,290 --> 00:27:13,970 really interesting because, uh, those, this couple of, of, for us, of totems 386 00:27:14,100 --> 00:27:16,720 illuminated like flying in the space. 387 00:27:17,260 --> 00:27:21,220 in this very dramatic space, because it was also nice at that moment that 388 00:27:21,220 --> 00:27:26,639 it was not a white space, but a like room, like a dark room, you know, where, 389 00:27:26,770 --> 00:27:28,920 where these images were appearing. 390 00:27:29,490 --> 00:27:33,090 And the video was like telling the story with sound. 391 00:27:33,219 --> 00:27:36,360 The image was very important in the video, but I think the sound. 392 00:27:36,955 --> 00:27:41,025 was much more important in that case because it was the, like the 393 00:27:41,065 --> 00:27:45,865 context of these totems flying and, and the others on the table. 394 00:27:46,244 --> 00:27:53,355 And I think that finally what we could do, uh, was, was very interesting to see in, 395 00:27:53,364 --> 00:27:59,865 in this eye regime we were criticizing, you were like very, uh, uh, appealed by 396 00:27:59,885 --> 00:28:03,819 this image, but also then the mediation. 397 00:28:04,550 --> 00:28:06,630 the room could, uh, you know, offer. 398 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:07,970 That was really interesting. 399 00:28:08,030 --> 00:28:13,260 So I, I think this transformation from, from the beginning of the 400 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:20,369 setting up to the end was, was really like, uh, you know, like this miracle 401 00:28:20,410 --> 00:28:22,270 of the setting up of an artwork. 402 00:28:22,795 --> 00:28:22,805 I 403 00:28:22,945 --> 00:28:25,455 Hollis: think it all turned out very beautifully, so I do have 404 00:28:25,455 --> 00:28:26,695 a question for Juan Carlos. 405 00:28:26,765 --> 00:28:32,695 How do you choose the material of ceramics or clay, uh, to pair with 3D printing? 406 00:28:32,705 --> 00:28:35,944 They seem like two very different materials to bring together and almost, 407 00:28:36,165 --> 00:28:38,764 um, like irreverently comically so. 408 00:28:39,074 --> 00:28:43,174 Um, so I'm curious, had you created art prior to this project incorporating 409 00:28:43,174 --> 00:28:44,504 these two materials together? 410 00:28:44,794 --> 00:28:48,065 And what was it like to bring these two materials together for Resimulate? 411 00:28:54,925 --> 00:28:57,685 Chris: I have been working with data for some time now in a very 412 00:28:57,685 --> 00:29:02,185 empirical way at certain levels, um, and been been very expert at that. 413 00:29:02,545 --> 00:29:06,715 I worked with robotic arms in 2018 that printed data with, in this 414 00:29:06,715 --> 00:29:10,915 case it was with a type of clay or a type of soil, which after 415 00:29:10,915 --> 00:29:12,774 printing the data came out, plants. 416 00:29:13,254 --> 00:29:17,745 We have worked with a substrate very similar to the 3D printer, and I, 417 00:29:17,815 --> 00:29:22,384 now I think about that exercise, or that translation, or representation 418 00:29:22,385 --> 00:29:26,475 of that data, uh, also kind of asked us for something very similar. 419 00:29:26,855 --> 00:29:28,955 We can work on data translation. 420 00:29:28,975 --> 00:29:32,735 Well, in this case, we would have ample, stronger data, and, and we 421 00:29:32,745 --> 00:29:34,345 set ourselves up for that challenge. 422 00:29:34,735 --> 00:29:38,645 So yes, I have worked with data and printing systems, but not specifically 423 00:29:38,645 --> 00:29:40,044 with a professional printer. 424 00:29:40,550 --> 00:29:43,820 Everything before was rather low tech, and this was already 425 00:29:43,820 --> 00:29:45,370 like another level experience. 426 00:29:46,035 --> 00:29:50,565 So yes, I like to work with various systems or media that allow for 427 00:29:50,565 --> 00:29:52,445 the proper translation of data. 428 00:29:52,985 --> 00:29:57,565 We also wanted this experience of data translation, uh, to have 429 00:29:57,565 --> 00:29:59,475 certain levels of conservation. 430 00:29:59,585 --> 00:30:03,585 It was like another challenge we discussed, uh, initially. 431 00:30:03,930 --> 00:30:08,150 It's not like the sporadic action of seeing the information and then, 432 00:30:08,450 --> 00:30:09,800 and then can it be maintained? 433 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:16,180 And, and is there, there was a decided to go towards a 3D printer made of ceramics 434 00:30:16,190 --> 00:30:20,070 so that we could just put it in the oven and, and preserve it, these pieces. 435 00:30:20,410 --> 00:30:23,810 So it was like, how are we going to preserve those experiences? 436 00:30:24,140 --> 00:30:25,910 3D printer. 437 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,370 Hollis: I'm curious, Felipe, if you have anything more to add about kind of like 438 00:30:29,370 --> 00:30:31,630 the symbolism behind the material as well. 439 00:30:32,105 --> 00:30:37,505 Felipe: I think, especially when, when looking at the video and when we work with 440 00:30:37,535 --> 00:30:43,155 data, generally you're going to tell maybe like the average of something, right? 441 00:30:43,175 --> 00:30:46,195 Like you measure a hundred people and you say, what's the average of 442 00:30:46,195 --> 00:30:50,875 this group of maybe you're going to say, okay, what is the top 1%? 443 00:30:51,475 --> 00:30:54,415 Or you're gonna, you're gonna give statistics which are not gonna 444 00:30:54,415 --> 00:30:56,755 show the story of an individual. 445 00:30:56,765 --> 00:30:59,995 You're gonna, you're gonna share an aggregate statistic that somehow 446 00:30:59,995 --> 00:31:04,625 represents distributions, but it's not gonna be telling the underlying story. 447 00:31:04,805 --> 00:31:07,585 And that's kind of what's different from when you do anthropology. 448 00:31:07,635 --> 00:31:10,295 And when you do anthropology, you're gonna do ethnography and actually 449 00:31:10,395 --> 00:31:13,355 gonna tell little stories that are actually gonna have a lot of meaning, 450 00:31:13,365 --> 00:31:15,165 but maybe are not generalizable. 451 00:31:15,550 --> 00:31:16,420 in the same way. 452 00:31:17,060 --> 00:31:23,560 And I think by doing, um, the 3d printing, we were trying to be able 453 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:29,840 to bridge those two things, be able to tell print one line, be one person. 454 00:31:30,350 --> 00:31:33,010 It's something that generally you wouldn't be able to do if you're doing it. 455 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,410 Maybe if you're doing it by hand, maybe you can tell it, but like, would you 456 00:31:36,410 --> 00:31:40,120 be able to tell all the salts, the subtle differences in different stuff? 457 00:31:40,750 --> 00:31:43,280 So I think like the, the medium of doing 3d printing. 458 00:31:43,825 --> 00:31:48,515 allow us to be able to kind of break the concept of statistics in a way that 459 00:31:48,695 --> 00:31:52,925 still we can do big data like our data set collects 10 million observations 460 00:31:52,935 --> 00:31:58,015 we can print 10 million stories but in a way that it still kind of like 461 00:31:58,055 --> 00:32:00,435 talks to the idea of an individual. 462 00:32:01,015 --> 00:32:04,425 And still, it's also very funny because these people, these 463 00:32:04,425 --> 00:32:05,565 are not the story of people. 464 00:32:05,575 --> 00:32:08,565 We're telling the stories of simulated futures for these peoples. 465 00:32:09,165 --> 00:32:13,495 And then it gets kind of funny because it seems that the individual is losing 466 00:32:13,615 --> 00:32:18,025 all their agency over what to do and the machine is just pushing them over 467 00:32:18,025 --> 00:32:19,755 and creating the stories for them. 468 00:32:20,255 --> 00:32:23,775 So I think there's a lot of like, and that goes into kind of a 469 00:32:23,775 --> 00:32:25,055 lot of discussions that we have. 470 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:30,760 about kind of what is the role of capitalism and even and kind of like 471 00:32:30,790 --> 00:32:35,610 jump maybe jumping ahead the the idea of thinking about self help books into 472 00:32:35,610 --> 00:32:40,100 like how can we hack the system how can we create something that we are in 473 00:32:40,100 --> 00:32:44,290 a capitalist system let's not try to create an alternative system let's try 474 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:49,480 to let individuals hack this system and I think that that kind of like balances 475 00:32:49,530 --> 00:32:53,365 and like talks directly to the use of the 3d printer because basically the 476 00:32:53,365 --> 00:32:58,025 system is just creating these stories for you and the agency even if you take 477 00:32:58,175 --> 00:33:02,765 the most capitalistic guide the stories are going to be limited in what is the 478 00:33:02,785 --> 00:33:08,475 agency that a human has within this whole economic structure and I think it's like 479 00:33:08,475 --> 00:33:13,010 a nice parallelism between The system of capitalism and a 3D printing system 480 00:33:13,210 --> 00:33:16,320 that is trying to create these individual stories, but it's somehow hacked. 481 00:33:16,790 --> 00:33:20,450 And so I think there's a lot of narratives on also something that 482 00:33:20,450 --> 00:33:24,740 Juan Carlos just said about trying to think about making data hard. 483 00:33:25,485 --> 00:33:29,035 Whereas data tends to be in these clouds that are not tangible. 484 00:33:29,325 --> 00:33:32,425 So I think there's also some nice discussions that we could have 485 00:33:32,425 --> 00:33:34,815 related to, to, to that contrast. 486 00:33:35,165 --> 00:33:39,545 So I think the medium is, is extremely interesting because you can go multiple 487 00:33:39,555 --> 00:33:41,385 ways into why it's actually relevant. 488 00:33:41,595 --> 00:33:45,925 Hollis: I know, I, I really hear all of that and I think there's both kind 489 00:33:45,925 --> 00:33:48,995 of a lot of humor and critique kind of. 490 00:33:49,455 --> 00:33:51,715 Inherently within the medium. 491 00:33:52,105 --> 00:33:56,145 Um, and I think this was a question that we will and I wanted to ask. 492 00:33:56,145 --> 00:33:58,505 And I think we've a keyed up perfectly. 493 00:33:58,505 --> 00:34:02,285 And I'm curious on if you could respond, but curious about just 494 00:34:02,315 --> 00:34:05,705 the theme you entered into with this notion of of self help. 495 00:34:05,755 --> 00:34:06,125 Right? 496 00:34:06,185 --> 00:34:14,195 Um, I'll tell you that like of navigating these very complex capitalist financial 497 00:34:14,195 --> 00:34:20,375 systems and that one individual's choices can determine one's fate. 498 00:34:20,945 --> 00:34:25,195 And I'm curious, like, obviously there was a level of like critique 499 00:34:25,205 --> 00:34:29,235 and questioning all inherent in the beginning of the process. 500 00:34:29,545 --> 00:34:32,875 So I'm curious, like what you all learned and on a, like, maybe you 501 00:34:32,875 --> 00:34:37,695 personally learned through doing this data visualization into art? 502 00:34:38,180 --> 00:34:42,420 Um, or speculative, um, data generation into art. 503 00:34:42,780 --> 00:34:48,840 Like what learnings you had about this notion of hacking the systems 504 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,150 that are through a type of self help? 505 00:34:52,740 --> 00:34:58,110 Ana: Yes, it was like two parts of, of this for us, this problem. 506 00:34:58,570 --> 00:35:04,490 One was our like anecdotic personal reading about what Felipe, because Felipe 507 00:35:04,490 --> 00:35:10,100 did the reading, you know, like the deep reading of the four volumes of self help. 508 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,970 There was a very impressive work, you know, to read all these. 509 00:35:16,285 --> 00:35:22,045 books and take notes and do like a presentation and all the systematization 510 00:35:22,075 --> 00:35:24,315 of the information was very interesting. 511 00:35:24,955 --> 00:35:31,135 Uh, we were, it's normally you will think that we are losing time, but in 512 00:35:31,135 --> 00:35:38,775 the same time we were getting deep in the question and this had for me at least two, 513 00:35:38,855 --> 00:35:41,915 uh, let's say paths that were opening. 514 00:35:42,700 --> 00:35:47,670 The first one was like very anecdotic and personal, and I learned that 515 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:52,950 the only thing that was interesting, and we agreed, three of us, was 516 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,210 like, we need to make savings. 517 00:35:56,220 --> 00:36:02,760 Like, you know, the common thing between what they are saying 518 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:07,840 in self financial self help, it was like you need to do saving. 519 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:13,030 There's a lot much more that can change the way of defining savings 520 00:36:13,490 --> 00:36:18,230 in each case, but, um, they were saying you have to spend, you have 521 00:36:18,230 --> 00:36:20,830 to use a credit card, you have to. 522 00:36:21,490 --> 00:36:23,050 Dress like a rich person. 523 00:36:23,050 --> 00:36:25,300 To be rich, you have to feel rich to be rich. 524 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,010 Uh, you know, you have to take huge depths because then you are going 525 00:36:30,010 --> 00:36:31,570 to get rich and all the stuff. 526 00:36:31,810 --> 00:36:35,860 Lawil: What was the most absurd thing you guys, like you have read in these books? 527 00:36:35,950 --> 00:36:40,540 Felipe: Oh, there was, there was this quote that, uh, one of them is, is 528 00:36:40,540 --> 00:36:44,050 trying to convince you that you need to see it to be able to pull it off. 529 00:36:44,050 --> 00:36:46,060 Like you have to really believe in money. 530 00:36:46,470 --> 00:36:49,770 Like a, a lot of the narrative is like, you have to be money. 531 00:36:49,830 --> 00:36:50,490 It's like this. 532 00:36:50,890 --> 00:36:52,670 Tottenham thing about money. 533 00:36:53,330 --> 00:36:58,170 Uh, and one of the books it had like the most ridiculous thing saying 534 00:36:58,550 --> 00:37:01,860 because it's first inaccurate, but it's also completely racist. 535 00:37:02,500 --> 00:37:03,830 And this was written like three years ago. 536 00:37:05,510 --> 00:37:08,730 Um, but basically it was saying like, when Columbus arrived to 537 00:37:08,730 --> 00:37:12,800 the Americas, the indigenous people didn't see them in boats. 538 00:37:13,660 --> 00:37:16,640 They thought they were walking on water because they had 539 00:37:16,650 --> 00:37:18,460 never seen these things happen. 540 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,530 So they, because they had never imagined it to be happening, then their own 541 00:37:22,530 --> 00:37:25,470 explanation that is that they were like gods or something like that. 542 00:37:25,510 --> 00:37:26,890 And that, that was on the book. 543 00:37:27,350 --> 00:37:29,260 And I was like, first, that's completely inaccurate. 544 00:37:29,260 --> 00:37:32,625 Like, Indigenous populations are extremely good navigators. 545 00:37:32,625 --> 00:37:34,375 They went to like Easter Islands. 546 00:37:34,655 --> 00:37:35,985 They knew how to trade. 547 00:37:36,665 --> 00:37:40,695 So there were some very outrageous and, and misogynistic and 548 00:37:40,695 --> 00:37:42,715 racist ideas in these books. 549 00:37:43,295 --> 00:37:44,965 I'm sorry for interrupting Ana, but that was like. 550 00:37:45,365 --> 00:37:48,185 Ana: No, no, it's because I think this is important because. 551 00:37:48,245 --> 00:37:48,635 It is. 552 00:37:48,635 --> 00:37:56,060 It shows the ideological In context of the books that they share, all 553 00:37:56,060 --> 00:38:00,430 of them, even if the, the, some of them are more, as Philippe told us, 554 00:38:00,430 --> 00:38:06,070 like more, you know, accurate in the financial way of saying things. 555 00:38:06,450 --> 00:38:10,680 But in the ideological part are they are all the same. 556 00:38:11,090 --> 00:38:12,260 They think the world. 557 00:38:13,405 --> 00:38:16,325 between reach and not reach. 558 00:38:16,925 --> 00:38:23,145 And, uh, if you want to get in the part of the reach, you have to do three, four, 559 00:38:23,145 --> 00:38:26,125 five things, you know, like priorities. 560 00:38:27,005 --> 00:38:30,545 And if you make a summary, it's. 561 00:38:30,845 --> 00:38:36,935 Uh, feel rich, have debts, dress like a rich person, do all the stuff and 562 00:38:37,185 --> 00:38:38,445 probably you're going to be rich. 563 00:38:39,055 --> 00:38:43,505 And they are hoping you buy those books so they can get rich. 564 00:38:43,785 --> 00:38:51,235 Uh, so in the personal part for me, it was like, okay, I need to start doing savings. 565 00:38:52,890 --> 00:38:58,060 This is, this was my, my personal learning experience. 566 00:38:59,050 --> 00:39:00,040 It's time for me. 567 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,680 I'm, I'm, I'm old enough to do that. 568 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:09,960 And if Felipe, that is not, you know, a financial expert in these ideological 569 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,820 contexts is saying, yeah, perhaps this is the only thing we can share. 570 00:39:13,900 --> 00:39:14,750 I would say, okay. 571 00:39:15,475 --> 00:39:21,395 Opening like a saving account and in the, let's say in the collective, uh, 572 00:39:21,395 --> 00:39:27,905 more reflexive part of the, of the work, what, what we expected happened 573 00:39:28,375 --> 00:39:34,125 that it was like a very neoliberal, ultra capitalist, uh, way of saying 574 00:39:34,130 --> 00:39:36,705 things that is very, is shared. 575 00:39:36,975 --> 00:39:40,665 I, I think most of the people that is buying and sharing this 576 00:39:40,665 --> 00:39:43,770 kind of, of advices and are. 577 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:51,330 Uh, most of all, not sharing a condition of richness or other related 578 00:39:51,380 --> 00:39:57,840 to financial conditions, but an ideological, uh, way of seeing the world 579 00:39:58,460 --> 00:40:01,980 and their expectations and desires. 580 00:40:02,570 --> 00:40:11,570 And it talks also a lot about inequalities and The, the very hard work we have in, 581 00:40:11,570 --> 00:40:18,290 in a critical way of artists, of thinkers about the, the different state of the 582 00:40:18,290 --> 00:40:24,630 world or, or, or, or a transformation path that it's very hard for us to compete 583 00:40:24,630 --> 00:40:32,610 with these kind of, it's a huge, uh, machine of putting these kind of ideas. 584 00:40:33,155 --> 00:40:33,975 in the air. 585 00:40:34,575 --> 00:40:40,915 And, uh, even if we, if we laugh when we read these kind of things, then when 586 00:40:40,915 --> 00:40:43,690 we see the reality, it's How do you say? 587 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:46,510 Oh, angst. 588 00:40:46,510 --> 00:40:47,680 Yeah, angst. 589 00:40:47,740 --> 00:40:48,130 Yeah. 590 00:40:48,460 --> 00:40:48,910 Yeah. 591 00:40:48,910 --> 00:40:49,960 It's the time. 592 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:50,410 Yeah. 593 00:40:50,410 --> 00:40:56,780 That and so, yeah, I think this is, this was very important part because I think 594 00:40:56,780 --> 00:41:03,870 we share, even if we have differences in our political, uh, views, we share 595 00:41:03,870 --> 00:41:06,860 some critical point of view about. 596 00:41:07,130 --> 00:41:12,460 ultra capitalistic and neoliberal paths and these things in here. 597 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,400 We share that, this critical view of that, and this was very important. 598 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,020 Hollis: Felipe, Juan Carlos, anything else you'd like to add? 599 00:41:19,020 --> 00:41:25,939 Juan Carlos: I think that 600 00:41:26,020 --> 00:41:29,640 Chris: another important part of this is like these self help books. 601 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:34,690 I know because it's being taught as valid information all the time. 602 00:41:35,010 --> 00:41:38,980 So part of this work is deciding what to do with the data management 603 00:41:38,980 --> 00:41:42,740 through this methodology and using self help experience as part of that. 604 00:41:43,210 --> 00:41:46,470 To what extent, how to use real information and how 605 00:41:46,470 --> 00:41:48,320 did, how do we verify it? 606 00:41:48,550 --> 00:41:51,945 So, And that was part of the experience that we wanted to 607 00:41:51,945 --> 00:41:53,685 seek in the data analysis. 608 00:41:54,065 --> 00:41:56,425 We did not want to do data analysis. 609 00:41:56,755 --> 00:42:00,765 That would lead us into what I should say, um, have a normal 610 00:42:00,765 --> 00:42:02,305 investigation of finances. 611 00:42:02,675 --> 00:42:08,615 Rather, just to work in the speculative spectrum, and on absolute truths that 612 00:42:08,615 --> 00:42:13,705 show us the day to day how we are going to become a millionaire or how 613 00:42:13,705 --> 00:42:17,135 we're going to grow a rapidly economy. 614 00:42:17,165 --> 00:42:22,675 No, and these traps have more to do with a series of false gurus about the economy. 615 00:42:22,965 --> 00:42:26,615 So that was something our, our interest at the time we were discussing 616 00:42:26,625 --> 00:42:28,185 how we are going to use this data. 617 00:42:28,485 --> 00:42:31,845 What was going to be the information that we're going to show? 618 00:42:32,275 --> 00:42:35,565 I think to be clear that our way of connecting everything was going to 619 00:42:35,575 --> 00:42:38,895 be, and it's going to be contradictory to this experience of self help. 620 00:42:39,545 --> 00:42:42,405 Hollis: I think we want to move to the last question that we 621 00:42:42,585 --> 00:42:46,335 are asking all of the artists as part of the future money cohort. 622 00:42:46,775 --> 00:42:51,225 Um, and it was really the, the initial prompt and inspiration for 623 00:42:51,235 --> 00:42:55,975 this project, which is envisioning a future of financial inclusion. 624 00:42:56,385 --> 00:43:02,125 Um, and so we're curious for each of you, what did financial inclusion 625 00:43:02,155 --> 00:43:08,350 mean to you through the process of, of This project and what is your vision 626 00:43:08,370 --> 00:43:10,230 for a financially inclusive future? 627 00:43:16,125 --> 00:43:19,295 Chris: I think it goes hand in hand a little with what I was saying about 628 00:43:19,295 --> 00:43:21,285 how speculative all this can be. 629 00:43:21,585 --> 00:43:25,825 I believe that the idea of financial inclusion, well, we wanted to work 630 00:43:25,825 --> 00:43:30,000 from the, from the Fictional from the speculative experience, but it was also 631 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:34,570 like reviewing the data And figures of ecuador and seeing exactly how the 632 00:43:34,570 --> 00:43:40,430 data continues to resonate For me, I think it was very decisive How the 633 00:43:40,430 --> 00:43:44,310 economies are working in a country like ecuador and now thinking about the 634 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:49,900 context and how this is developing Also a very harsh economic reality related 635 00:43:49,900 --> 00:43:54,980 to economic activity Acclimation of inequality that is prominent in Ecuador. 636 00:43:55,350 --> 00:43:58,910 So for me, I believe that part of working on that idea of financial 637 00:43:58,910 --> 00:44:02,850 inclusion was a little bit of working on how we debunk these myths about 638 00:44:02,850 --> 00:44:04,670 self help and financial management. 639 00:44:04,990 --> 00:44:06,200 It was a bit about that. 640 00:44:06,580 --> 00:44:09,800 How do we work with ideas constantly implanted in us? 641 00:44:09,910 --> 00:44:13,300 But how do we make them verifiable with current information? 642 00:44:13,300 --> 00:44:17,790 I, I, I think, I think I still, it's still within the data management. 643 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:22,920 It continues to show us despite using the ideas of self help or trying to make 644 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:27,370 schemes that these, these figures of this supposed formulas of, of sauces. 645 00:44:27,370 --> 00:44:30,470 Well, it, it continues to give us very chilling data about the 646 00:44:30,470 --> 00:44:32,380 inequity in a country like Ecuador. 647 00:44:32,580 --> 00:44:35,930 I think it applies to, to in, in many contexts. 648 00:44:36,690 --> 00:44:43,920 Felipe: I share a lot of what Carlos is mentioning in the sense that, well, in my 649 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:49,910 research, I don't do directly financial inclusion, but I read a lot of research, 650 00:44:49,950 --> 00:44:55,670 academic research and financial inclusion, and there's a lot of little policies that 651 00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,110 can be done to try to improve things. 652 00:44:58,670 --> 00:44:59,950 Um, but like. 653 00:45:00,925 --> 00:45:06,105 I'm overly generally a skeptic about the possibility of financial inclusion, 654 00:45:06,665 --> 00:45:15,065 uh, doing either these micro policies that NGOs or states can try to do, uh, 655 00:45:15,115 --> 00:45:20,785 or these self determination actions that individuals can do in the sense 656 00:45:20,795 --> 00:45:26,295 that, like, I think the nice thing about following the hyper capitalistic 657 00:45:26,295 --> 00:45:29,545 agenda in the simulations is that they were saying, like, if this doesn't 658 00:45:29,575 --> 00:45:31,655 work, then what, what can work? 659 00:45:31,695 --> 00:45:31,975 Right? 660 00:45:32,015 --> 00:45:39,195 And something that was kind of maybe a little bit disappointing is that, okay. 661 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,030 I would have been happy if these hypercapitalistic 662 00:45:42,030 --> 00:45:43,040 solutions would have worked. 663 00:45:43,570 --> 00:45:49,040 That actually would have been somehow a positive note, but kind of like 664 00:45:49,070 --> 00:45:53,200 overall there's not much that can be done and that's kind of like the 665 00:45:53,220 --> 00:45:55,320 very dark thing from it in that. 666 00:45:55,970 --> 00:46:00,900 Piecewise policies or individual policies will not necessarily be radically life 667 00:46:00,900 --> 00:46:02,960 changing for the majority of population. 668 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,070 And that's kind of what is a little bit saddening. 669 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:12,030 So in terms of future financial inclusion, uh, yeah, perhaps it's 670 00:46:12,170 --> 00:46:17,800 rethinking about the way that the system is structured, but coming from my own 671 00:46:17,850 --> 00:46:23,010 research agenda, politics wise, that's extremely, extremely hard to change. 672 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:24,980 And that also makes it then. 673 00:46:26,700 --> 00:46:29,480 kind of nihilistic view on what is the possibilities of 674 00:46:29,550 --> 00:46:30,760 future financial inclusion. 675 00:46:31,170 --> 00:46:31,470 Yeah. 676 00:46:31,470 --> 00:46:32,520 Sorry for leaving on a sad note. 677 00:46:33,890 --> 00:46:34,990 Hollis: Gotta keep it real. 678 00:46:35,070 --> 00:46:39,090 I'm curious, um, Ana, if you have any kind of reflections that compliment 679 00:46:39,100 --> 00:46:41,000 what Juan Carlos and Felipe shared. 680 00:46:41,410 --> 00:46:48,910 Ana: I wanted to say that we like start with this phrase, how to get rich 681 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,380 and stop worrying about the future. 682 00:46:52,220 --> 00:46:54,790 It was like this humoristic statement. 683 00:46:55,670 --> 00:47:02,390 And I would say that we were talking all the things we were reflecting, I would say 684 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:08,000 how to get out of the imperative of being rich and stop worrying about the future. 685 00:47:08,790 --> 00:47:16,660 So it helps me to relate, um, to show the relationship between accumulation, 686 00:47:16,850 --> 00:47:19,120 extraction, climate change. 687 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,460 war and the worry of getting rich. 688 00:47:23,780 --> 00:47:30,220 Let's inverse the phrase to say something, something about the future as getting rich 689 00:47:30,780 --> 00:47:38,250 means in this financial health aid, how to get rich and be rich for the consuming. 690 00:47:39,250 --> 00:47:44,160 So I would say perhaps thinking about other examples we learned 691 00:47:44,170 --> 00:47:51,300 in, in Costa Rica in San Jose, uh, microfinancing, for example, how to. 692 00:47:51,745 --> 00:47:57,475 Put together other kind of simulations of data, perhaps less humoristic, 693 00:47:57,555 --> 00:48:03,015 but more pedagogical and showing what seems not that obvious as 694 00:48:03,015 --> 00:48:05,435 for example, alternative finance. 695 00:48:06,095 --> 00:48:10,105 So for example, the Mexico example was very nice. 696 00:48:10,795 --> 00:48:16,305 Perhaps it's a challenge for us now to think about financial inclusion in a 697 00:48:16,305 --> 00:48:22,495 way of other examples of showing data about microfinancing in a way that is. 698 00:48:23,550 --> 00:48:30,540 where imagination and visual proposal can do the difference, you know, 699 00:48:30,580 --> 00:48:35,830 can create this fiction that we can think real for the future, something 700 00:48:35,830 --> 00:48:37,860 like that, something around that. 701 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:40,850 Hollis: I think that's beautiful. 702 00:48:40,850 --> 00:48:44,570 And I think, yeah, leading, I totally understand Felipe, what you're saying 703 00:48:44,590 --> 00:48:50,550 about, it's easy to be nihilistic when you look at how difficult and entrenched 704 00:48:50,905 --> 00:48:57,115 Systems change, like it feels very impossible, um, and the data proves 705 00:48:57,115 --> 00:49:02,365 that, but then maybe reconceptualizing data to be what is possible, what, 706 00:49:02,465 --> 00:49:07,105 how can we utilize our imagination to envision new ways and whether that's 707 00:49:07,115 --> 00:49:09,475 microfinance, very interpersonal, right? 708 00:49:09,885 --> 00:49:14,695 Or building things through community instead of like the larger systems. 709 00:49:15,285 --> 00:49:21,555 Yeah, I think I'm so thankful for each of you for your work in this project 710 00:49:21,555 --> 00:49:24,105 and showing up to discuss it today. 711 00:49:24,675 --> 00:49:25,305 Lawil: Absolutely. 712 00:49:25,305 --> 00:49:28,155 Thank you so much for being on the future money podcast. 713 00:49:28,425 --> 00:49:30,015 I do have one more question. 714 00:49:30,405 --> 00:49:32,145 What are your future plans for re simulate? 715 00:49:34,185 --> 00:49:40,674 Juan Carlos: I think that now the, the 716 00:49:40,855 --> 00:49:45,095 Chris: objective is, uh, to, to complete the entire experience on, on the material 717 00:49:45,095 --> 00:49:49,585 level, uh, which is obviously we will communicate with you and invite you. 718 00:49:49,585 --> 00:49:52,395 Uh, that's like our first, like our big objective. 719 00:49:52,395 --> 00:49:54,085 And I think this experience can. 720 00:49:54,390 --> 00:49:58,370 Consolidates a dynamic that I particularly liked like I liked working with Anna 721 00:49:58,370 --> 00:50:02,920 again now that the experience with the sleep And I think this is definitely to be 722 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,920 continued with more and I'm going forward and and and visiting new experiences. 723 00:50:07,290 --> 00:50:08,440 Felipe: Yeah Same. 724 00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:14,405 I think it was A great experience to kind of get the ball rolling. 725 00:50:14,425 --> 00:50:17,945 I don't think this is the end of the role of the road at all. 726 00:50:18,475 --> 00:50:21,555 And yeah, we even haven't finished this project yet. 727 00:50:21,555 --> 00:50:27,205 So that's, that's kind of going to be important this year. 728 00:50:27,635 --> 00:50:30,295 And, um, I do. 729 00:50:30,335 --> 00:50:35,735 I enjoyed a lot the work of multiple practices and methodologies. 730 00:50:36,185 --> 00:50:38,295 I like the interdisciplinarity of the project. 731 00:50:38,705 --> 00:50:43,515 I also like being able to present the work in a way that was kind 732 00:50:43,515 --> 00:50:45,545 of like, Okay, let's show it. 733 00:50:45,545 --> 00:50:46,535 Let's get feedback. 734 00:50:47,105 --> 00:50:49,265 And let's talk to people that are experts. 735 00:50:49,940 --> 00:50:54,530 And also try to extrapolate what are non experts going to reach from this. 736 00:50:54,860 --> 00:50:59,530 So I think even like the going to Costa Rica on how to think about 737 00:50:59,570 --> 00:51:04,600 the material representation and discussion of the artwork through the 738 00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:09,460 mediation that Ana was leading during like, uh, one of the opening nights. 739 00:51:09,850 --> 00:51:14,700 I think all of that is, is like just, Opening more roads 740 00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:16,440 about where we can go from now. 741 00:51:16,940 --> 00:51:17,450 So, yeah. 742 00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:18,830 Hollis: Thank you. 743 00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,680 Any last words, Ana, for you in terms of your hopes for the future 744 00:51:22,690 --> 00:51:24,160 realization of this project? 745 00:51:24,710 --> 00:51:30,370 Ana: I will be in Mexico City next week, so I hope we can plan this exhibition. 746 00:51:31,780 --> 00:51:33,270 Then, let's continue. 747 00:51:33,850 --> 00:51:34,650 We need to show this. 748 00:51:35,770 --> 00:51:36,580 different ways. 749 00:51:37,450 --> 00:51:38,620 And I think it's going to, 750 00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:40,960 Hollis: yeah, to get better and better. 751 00:51:41,450 --> 00:51:42,340 It's really exciting. 752 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:47,510 I can't wait to see this next chapter unfold for the story of Resimulate. 753 00:52:03,190 --> 00:52:05,960 Thanks so much for tuning into this episode of the Future Money Podcast. 754 00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:08,740 Lawil: We hope you will enjoy another one of our episodes. 755 00:52:08,740 --> 00:52:13,140 Make sure to subscribe and like the podcast on Spotify, Apple Music, or 756 00:52:13,140 --> 00:52:14,550 whenever you listen to your pods. 757 00:52:15,180 --> 00:52:17,910 Hollis: And if you're so inclined, we would appreciate a rating and a review. 758 00:52:18,180 --> 00:52:18,950 Thanks so much.