1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,780 Lawil: You are listening to another episode of the future money podcast 2 00:00:07,830 --> 00:00:11,510 presented by the Intelligent Foundation, where we invite people of all backgrounds 3 00:00:11,559 --> 00:00:15,059 and disciplines to imagine what a financially inclusive future might be. 4 00:00:15,630 --> 00:00:19,160 I'm Nawil Karama, and today our newest host, Sabine Scheller, will 5 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:20,730 interview two very special guests. 6 00:00:21,210 --> 00:00:24,620 In this episode, I am in conversation with the creators of the Intellectual 7 00:00:24,620 --> 00:00:27,030 Protocol, Stefan Thomas and Evan Schwarz. 8 00:00:27,630 --> 00:00:30,800 Their conversation covers a variety of topics and reflection. 9 00:00:31,100 --> 00:00:34,760 We dive into their early days and the challenges they've faced in creating 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,619 a universal payment system and a role of ILP in enhancing efficiency. 11 00:00:38,975 --> 00:00:42,474 They dive into smart contracts, decentralization, and a need 12 00:00:42,474 --> 00:00:45,695 for a universal payment network that connects different ledgers. 13 00:00:46,085 --> 00:00:49,875 The conversation highlights the successes and the mistakes made along the way. 14 00:00:50,214 --> 00:00:53,414 And of course, the ongoing work to improve and integrate technologies. 15 00:00:54,055 --> 00:00:57,214 We hope you enjoy another episode of the Future Money Podcast. 16 00:01:02,754 --> 00:01:04,394 Sabine: Welcome to the Future Money Podcast. 17 00:01:04,614 --> 00:01:05,825 Today, we have. 18 00:01:06,025 --> 00:01:10,385 Two guests with us, we have Stefan Thomas and we have Evan Schwartz, the 19 00:01:10,875 --> 00:01:13,065 co creators of the Interledger Protocol. 20 00:01:13,605 --> 00:01:18,855 And for the very little chance that people haven't heard about you 21 00:01:18,905 --> 00:01:22,424 ever before, do you maybe want to introduce yourself real quick and 22 00:01:22,425 --> 00:01:23,595 tell us a little bit about yourself? 23 00:01:23,820 --> 00:01:24,030 Stefan: Yeah. 24 00:01:24,030 --> 00:01:25,190 My name is Stefan Thomas. 25 00:01:25,270 --> 00:01:31,280 I kind of grew up loving writing code and, um, worked as a freelancer, 26 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,100 a web developer for a long time. 27 00:01:33,549 --> 00:01:39,979 And then I got into Bitcoin back in 2010 and got really fascinated 28 00:01:39,979 --> 00:01:44,650 by the idea of You know, you could write code that moves money around. 29 00:01:44,870 --> 00:01:47,890 And that has been my obsession ever since. 30 00:01:48,460 --> 00:01:52,490 I think the thing that got me very excited about Bitcoin at the beginning 31 00:01:52,490 --> 00:01:56,520 was the idea that you could send money to people internationally very easily. 32 00:01:56,959 --> 00:01:59,890 As a freelancer, I knew that there was a lot of friction there. 33 00:01:59,929 --> 00:02:02,679 Working with people in other countries was always very difficult. 34 00:02:02,689 --> 00:02:04,740 Just getting them paid and getting the money there. 35 00:02:04,740 --> 00:02:08,329 So Bitcoin didn't fully live up to that by itself. 36 00:02:08,329 --> 00:02:10,030 I think it's a great foundation. 37 00:02:10,310 --> 00:02:15,210 But I ended up joining Ripple, uh, working on XOP Ledger, um, working on 38 00:02:15,220 --> 00:02:19,100 other blockchain technologies as the chief technology officer at Ripple. 39 00:02:19,889 --> 00:02:23,789 And as part of that also created a research team, which Evan 40 00:02:23,790 --> 00:02:26,849 was a part of and he'll tell you his perspective on that. 41 00:02:27,260 --> 00:02:30,759 And yeah, during that time researching things and trying to 42 00:02:30,759 --> 00:02:33,629 figure out like what are some of the missing ingredients to take. 43 00:02:34,010 --> 00:02:39,030 Blockchain technology and other existing financial technology and kind of bring 44 00:02:39,030 --> 00:02:42,300 it up to the, to the level that we'd like to see where everything feels 45 00:02:42,300 --> 00:02:45,800 really frictionless, um, that led to the development of Intellidger. 46 00:02:46,210 --> 00:02:51,629 And so nowadays I am the chairperson of the Intellidger foundation and I kind 47 00:02:51,630 --> 00:02:55,319 of work full time on open source code. 48 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:57,920 I work on a project called Dasi, which we'll probably get into later. 49 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,580 And I'm just trying to get Interledger out there into the world. 50 00:03:01,959 --> 00:03:03,410 Evan: And my name is Evan Schwartz. 51 00:03:03,500 --> 00:03:07,089 I've worked as a software engineer for the past 10 plus years. 52 00:03:07,100 --> 00:03:10,239 I've worked on a couple of different open source projects in 53 00:03:10,239 --> 00:03:12,520 general, like open source things. 54 00:03:12,859 --> 00:03:17,079 I've always wanted to be an inventor and that's kind of the thing I love doing. 55 00:03:17,079 --> 00:03:21,379 So like coming up with new ideas for things that included working 56 00:03:21,379 --> 00:03:24,500 with Stefan on Interledger and some other things after that. 57 00:03:24,990 --> 00:03:27,680 Sabine: So Evan, I know you guys met at Ripple. 58 00:03:27,690 --> 00:03:32,920 Did you have any other prior experience with payments and 59 00:03:32,950 --> 00:03:34,990 financial products, stuff like that? 60 00:03:34,990 --> 00:03:37,420 Or how did you, how did you end up in that space? 61 00:03:38,050 --> 00:03:40,770 Evan: I had no, no prior experience whatsoever. 62 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,700 I was just out of college and looking for jobs. 63 00:03:45,050 --> 00:03:49,555 And Got introduced to ripple, to be honest, was not particularly 64 00:03:49,555 --> 00:03:53,345 interested, but was like, you know, I need interview practice and so 65 00:03:53,345 --> 00:03:54,994 I'll, I'll take the interview anyway. 66 00:03:55,245 --> 00:03:59,604 And then read up on it seemed kind of interesting and then met up with 67 00:03:59,604 --> 00:04:01,785 Stefan for an in person interview. 68 00:04:01,895 --> 00:04:05,225 We ended up talking for an hour and a half and I was like, wow, this seems crazy. 69 00:04:05,225 --> 00:04:08,805 This is like a 14 person company talking about connecting the global 70 00:04:08,815 --> 00:04:12,705 financial system more like that seems nuts, but also very interesting. 71 00:04:12,995 --> 00:04:14,275 And that was kind of how. 72 00:04:14,450 --> 00:04:15,760 How we started working together. 73 00:04:16,230 --> 00:04:17,659 Stefan: This is a long time ago now. 74 00:04:17,670 --> 00:04:20,870 What was your knowledge about blockchain at the time? 75 00:04:20,870 --> 00:04:23,000 Were you interested in it at all or didn't care? 76 00:04:23,169 --> 00:04:24,409 Evan: No, I didn't know anything about it. 77 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:30,179 I had never heard of it before being put in touch with, with you and had 78 00:04:30,179 --> 00:04:33,219 no particular interest and was just like, Oh, okay, let me, let me, let me. 79 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:34,060 Find out about this. 80 00:04:34,060 --> 00:04:39,140 And then your interview style at the time was just explaining Ripple's technology. 81 00:04:39,180 --> 00:04:42,560 And then I think judging people based on the questions that they were asking. 82 00:04:42,770 --> 00:04:43,860 And I didn't know anything. 83 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,400 So I was very happy to just ask lots of questions and that worked out well. 84 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:47,800 Stefan: Yeah. 85 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:48,660 I was like, lock the door. 86 00:04:48,660 --> 00:04:49,870 This, this person's not leaving. 87 00:04:50,380 --> 00:04:53,700 Sabine: But Intellidger wasn't something that you already had in 88 00:04:53,700 --> 00:04:55,350 your mind at that time, Stefan? 89 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:57,400 Stefan: I think maybe like. 90 00:04:57,755 --> 00:05:03,715 The, the sort of seeds were in the lack of scalability in existing ledgers. 91 00:05:03,765 --> 00:05:06,355 Like I already knew that we're going to need something. 92 00:05:06,700 --> 00:05:10,860 Because if you think about how a blockchain works, you know, you have a 93 00:05:10,860 --> 00:05:14,690 ledger and it's so distributed across lots of different computers all over the world, 94 00:05:15,220 --> 00:05:19,710 but every transaction that happens has to be recorded by all of those computers. 95 00:05:19,730 --> 00:05:22,790 And so as more and more people try to transact, eventually. 96 00:05:23,315 --> 00:05:26,164 The math just doesn't math and, you know, you're just doing too 97 00:05:26,164 --> 00:05:27,655 much work for each transaction. 98 00:05:28,055 --> 00:05:32,755 And so, you know, in the traditional finance world, a traditional payments 99 00:05:32,755 --> 00:05:37,115 world, the way that you often deal with that scalability issue is with netting. 100 00:05:37,125 --> 00:05:40,695 So, like, if you make a credit card transaction, there isn't like 101 00:05:40,695 --> 00:05:44,195 an international bank wire that one to one corresponds to your 102 00:05:44,195 --> 00:05:45,455 credit card transaction, right? 103 00:05:45,455 --> 00:05:48,445 Like, The way that works is that the banks will add up all the 104 00:05:48,445 --> 00:05:52,305 transactions and then send one big transfer to, to net it all up. 105 00:05:52,305 --> 00:05:56,115 And so I always thought it would be something like that happening for 106 00:05:56,645 --> 00:05:58,024 these newer technologies as well. 107 00:05:58,025 --> 00:05:59,735 I just didn't know exactly what it would look like. 108 00:05:59,985 --> 00:06:04,934 Evan: I think the other kernel of an idea that contributed to it a lot was 109 00:06:05,474 --> 00:06:09,115 when I joined Ripple, the company's whole mission was about connecting 110 00:06:09,175 --> 00:06:10,765 the global financial system more. 111 00:06:11,104 --> 00:06:16,335 And the idea was, like, if you can get everyone onto one ledger that 112 00:06:16,335 --> 00:06:20,674 supports multiple currencies and atomic transactions between them, then you 113 00:06:20,674 --> 00:06:22,724 could have global interoperability. 114 00:06:22,775 --> 00:06:26,504 And that idea, I think, was kind of in the, in the zeitgeist at 115 00:06:26,504 --> 00:06:29,155 the time, to some extent, though maybe a little bit before its time. 116 00:06:29,700 --> 00:06:36,050 And I remember at some point, Stefan saying, I don't know if it's going 117 00:06:36,050 --> 00:06:39,650 to be possible to get everyone on one ledger because like there was 118 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:44,319 the like Bitcoin sort of started off the whole blockchain thing. 119 00:06:44,689 --> 00:06:48,119 But then a lot of other people came out with with different blockchains 120 00:06:48,210 --> 00:06:49,730 with slightly different features. 121 00:06:49,955 --> 00:06:53,615 And I think like one of the things that I always give a lot of credit to Stefan 122 00:06:53,645 --> 00:06:58,015 for was like the company's whole mission was like, let's get, let's connect 123 00:06:58,015 --> 00:06:59,664 the entire world's financial system. 124 00:06:59,674 --> 00:07:01,515 Let's connect everybody to this one ledger. 125 00:07:01,805 --> 00:07:04,844 And I think the way that I remember Stefan looking at it was like, 126 00:07:04,844 --> 00:07:06,264 Oh, what if that's not possible? 127 00:07:06,945 --> 00:07:11,164 Is there a way to achieve this vision in a different way? 128 00:07:11,634 --> 00:07:13,824 Uh, and I think that was the current, that was one of the 129 00:07:13,834 --> 00:07:15,054 kernels that kind of kicked off. 130 00:07:17,215 --> 00:07:20,395 Stefan: I remember having a lot of anxiety about sharing that 131 00:07:20,735 --> 00:07:21,975 thought with my colleagues. 132 00:07:21,975 --> 00:07:25,055 Like the very first person I told was Monica Long, who was at the 133 00:07:25,065 --> 00:07:26,435 time our head of communications. 134 00:07:26,984 --> 00:07:30,424 And I basically just like took her into a meeting room and I was like, 135 00:07:31,125 --> 00:07:35,255 so this is going to sound a little weird because you know, our whole thing 136 00:07:35,264 --> 00:07:41,370 is that we want everybody to connect through the XRP ledger, but, you What 137 00:07:41,370 --> 00:07:44,250 if there were multiple ledgers and we had to think about how to connect 138 00:07:44,250 --> 00:07:48,180 them all together and like, what if we changed our view and, and the XRP ledger 139 00:07:48,180 --> 00:07:49,380 is just one of many, many ledgers. 140 00:07:50,324 --> 00:07:55,715 And that seemed initially very like counter to the company's goals 141 00:07:55,715 --> 00:07:58,934 and took us a long time to kind of figure out how it all fits together. 142 00:07:59,314 --> 00:08:03,525 But I think looking back, you know, even with the original vision, you 143 00:08:03,534 --> 00:08:05,354 still have to deal with legacy ledgers. 144 00:08:05,354 --> 00:08:09,444 You still have to deal with bank internal ledgers and companies, internal ledgers. 145 00:08:09,444 --> 00:08:13,275 So the world has many, many ledgers and you need a way to get across them. 146 00:08:13,284 --> 00:08:16,255 So that, you know, that was sort of inevitable, but yeah, it was 147 00:08:16,255 --> 00:08:17,305 very scary at the beginning. 148 00:08:17,750 --> 00:08:22,080 Sabine: We've already talked a little bit about blockchain inspiring it, but 149 00:08:22,110 --> 00:08:24,520 it not being the greatest solution. 150 00:08:24,530 --> 00:08:28,700 So you came up with Intellidger for, um, the more non technical audience. 151 00:08:28,700 --> 00:08:31,700 Can you briefly describe how Intellidger works? 152 00:08:31,709 --> 00:08:35,880 And I know this is a challenge, but I have full confidence since you pitched it at 153 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,450 Ripple that you will be able to do that. 154 00:08:38,700 --> 00:08:39,560 Stefan: Well, who are you asking? 155 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:40,130 Are you asking me? 156 00:08:40,130 --> 00:08:40,630 Are you asking Evan? 157 00:08:40,830 --> 00:08:41,150 Sabine: Uh, 158 00:08:41,350 --> 00:08:43,370 Stefan: cause I think you might get slightly different explanation. 159 00:08:44,010 --> 00:08:44,500 Sabine: Hmm. 160 00:08:44,850 --> 00:08:46,020 I'm asking Evan this time. 161 00:08:46,340 --> 00:08:46,740 Evan: All right. 162 00:08:47,260 --> 00:08:52,079 Interledger is about routing money across different payment networks. 163 00:08:52,090 --> 00:08:55,049 So there's lots of different payment networks in the world. 164 00:08:55,319 --> 00:08:58,449 And the idea is to come up with a really, really simple way. 165 00:08:58,964 --> 00:09:03,135 Of sending money across them so that you and I could be on different payment 166 00:09:03,135 --> 00:09:06,805 networks and still send money to one another I think that's the simplest way 167 00:09:06,834 --> 00:09:12,414 that I can put it It's also worth adding that we in thinking about the design for 168 00:09:12,425 --> 00:09:16,484 how to actually do that We took a lot of inspiration from the design of the 169 00:09:16,484 --> 00:09:20,475 internet, which is also why the names are somewhat similar But the internet 170 00:09:20,475 --> 00:09:25,235 is also about routing Packets of data, not money across independent networks. 171 00:09:25,245 --> 00:09:29,055 So I'm on a different internet service provider than you guys are. 172 00:09:29,375 --> 00:09:33,145 And that's fine because the internet just makes the connection 173 00:09:33,155 --> 00:09:34,154 happen in the background. 174 00:09:34,395 --> 00:09:36,744 And that's kind of the hope with interledger is that we could be 175 00:09:36,744 --> 00:09:40,805 on completely different payment providers and still be able to 176 00:09:40,805 --> 00:09:42,154 send money between one another. 177 00:09:42,384 --> 00:09:42,654 Stefan: Yeah. 178 00:09:42,654 --> 00:09:45,785 I mean, like we could talk for hours on this, you know, different 179 00:09:45,785 --> 00:09:47,025 ways to explain intelligent. 180 00:09:47,035 --> 00:09:49,675 I'd say maybe a couple of thoughts, like one. 181 00:09:50,300 --> 00:09:53,439 If, if we're just talking about what's the goal of interledger, 182 00:09:53,579 --> 00:09:54,750 that's like one side of it. 183 00:09:54,750 --> 00:09:54,990 Right. 184 00:09:55,020 --> 00:10:00,370 Which is, I would say just making money move very efficiently and, you know, 185 00:10:00,370 --> 00:10:05,009 getting to a point where, you know, communication has become so ingrained 186 00:10:05,009 --> 00:10:08,440 and effortless, you know, you don't think about like, Oh, you know, we're 187 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,110 gonna have to write a letter and I'm gonna have to take it to the post office. 188 00:10:11,110 --> 00:10:14,290 Like you just type whatever you want to send to somebody and you send it. 189 00:10:14,660 --> 00:10:16,030 Within seconds, they can read it. 190 00:10:16,765 --> 00:10:20,175 And we haven't quite reached that level yet with, with payments, even though 191 00:10:20,375 --> 00:10:22,045 they're also just bits and bytes. 192 00:10:22,045 --> 00:10:25,484 And so IntelliJ is essentially trying to, to catch payments up to 193 00:10:25,485 --> 00:10:27,295 the same level that the data is at. 194 00:10:28,185 --> 00:10:29,544 So that's, that's one side of it. 195 00:10:29,854 --> 00:10:33,075 And then when you talk about the technology, I think Evan kind of already 196 00:10:33,095 --> 00:10:37,325 covered, like it's very much inspired by some of the key ideas behind the internet. 197 00:10:37,735 --> 00:10:41,625 One of them I would highlight is this idea of just it being an 198 00:10:41,625 --> 00:10:43,775 abstraction layer, it's just an API. 199 00:10:43,795 --> 00:10:44,945 Like you're, you are. 200 00:10:45,205 --> 00:10:47,085 Building applications for interledger. 201 00:10:47,964 --> 00:10:51,165 And you don't know if they're eventually going to run on some blockchain or 202 00:10:51,295 --> 00:10:54,295 they're going to run on some bank ledger, they're going to run on some other system. 203 00:10:54,555 --> 00:10:55,264 It doesn't matter. 204 00:10:55,264 --> 00:10:58,194 You're programming your application for interledger, and that means 205 00:10:58,194 --> 00:10:59,375 it's going to run everywhere. 206 00:10:59,564 --> 00:11:03,394 So it's kind of like, um, connecting all the different solutions together. 207 00:11:03,875 --> 00:11:06,895 And then I think the other thing, which is maybe getting a little too into 208 00:11:06,895 --> 00:11:10,795 the weeds, uh, at this stage of the conversation, but I'll mention it briefly, 209 00:11:10,795 --> 00:11:12,555 which is the end to end principle. 210 00:11:12,564 --> 00:11:13,825 So the internet. 211 00:11:14,090 --> 00:11:19,030 Kind of was competing it at the time when it was being developed with other, 212 00:11:19,060 --> 00:11:22,349 lots of other network interoperability standards, because people realize, 213 00:11:22,349 --> 00:11:25,040 okay, we have all these networks, but you know, kind of would be nice 214 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:26,300 if they were all connected together. 215 00:11:26,650 --> 00:11:29,850 So there were a bunch of different efforts along those lines, but I 216 00:11:29,870 --> 00:11:33,970 think one thing that really helped the internet win and become the standard 217 00:11:33,970 --> 00:11:37,370 that we all use today was that it was able to be much more simple. 218 00:11:37,410 --> 00:11:40,470 And the reason it was able to be much more simple is because. 219 00:11:40,900 --> 00:11:45,050 It realized that there are a lot of features that you can 220 00:11:45,050 --> 00:11:49,390 provide on the network level, like reliability, checksums, you 221 00:11:49,390 --> 00:11:50,650 know, also the things like that. 222 00:11:51,180 --> 00:11:55,430 But if you actually skip all of those and you make a deliberately 223 00:11:55,480 --> 00:12:00,599 unreliable core network, that core networks ends up being very simple. 224 00:12:00,989 --> 00:12:04,210 And then what you do is you treat all those. 225 00:12:04,635 --> 00:12:07,185 Issues or you handle all those issues at the end points. 226 00:12:07,195 --> 00:12:10,865 So when I send a packet over the internet, I don't know if it's going to get there. 227 00:12:10,865 --> 00:12:11,305 Maybe not. 228 00:12:11,325 --> 00:12:13,175 Maybe it will, maybe it won't, maybe it'll take a while. 229 00:12:13,175 --> 00:12:14,444 Maybe it'll get there tomorrow. 230 00:12:14,444 --> 00:12:15,165 Like, I don't know. 231 00:12:15,589 --> 00:12:19,770 But I will handle those different failure modes and you kind of have 232 00:12:19,770 --> 00:12:24,009 to do that anyway, because whatever reliability mechanism you implement 233 00:12:24,010 --> 00:12:25,500 on the network layer could fail. 234 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,449 And so you don't really lose anything by doing it this way, but you gain 235 00:12:29,459 --> 00:12:32,660 a lot of simplicity or like you lose a lot of complexity in that sense. 236 00:12:32,660 --> 00:12:32,839 Right. 237 00:12:32,839 --> 00:12:36,599 So we tried to take that same architectural approach with Intellidger. 238 00:12:36,969 --> 00:12:39,630 And if anything, you know, I mean, first of all, credit to Evan, 239 00:12:39,630 --> 00:12:42,020 because he was the first one to kind of think in that direction. 240 00:12:42,030 --> 00:12:44,920 And that ended up being, I would say the key breakthrough is like. 241 00:12:45,380 --> 00:12:48,100 Really using the internet as the foundation. 242 00:12:48,569 --> 00:12:52,930 Um, for the design and we've been surprised again and again, how 243 00:12:52,930 --> 00:12:55,349 well it actually translates over. 244 00:12:55,369 --> 00:12:58,900 Like there've been so many things where I was like, surely payments are different. 245 00:12:58,910 --> 00:13:00,619 Money's different in this way or that way. 246 00:13:01,350 --> 00:13:03,640 And it ended up being like, no, actually we can just do what 247 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:04,580 the internet does, you know? 248 00:13:04,580 --> 00:13:06,010 So it was very interesting. 249 00:13:06,390 --> 00:13:09,719 Sabine: We are in version four of the Intelligent Protocol right 250 00:13:09,750 --> 00:13:13,500 now, and I'm assuming we made it simpler from one to four. 251 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:14,360 Is that correct? 252 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:14,719 Stefan: Yes. 253 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:15,939 I would say much simpler. 254 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:17,339 Sabine: Can we make it even simpler? 255 00:13:17,729 --> 00:13:18,279 Do you have ideas? 256 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:18,580 Yes. 257 00:13:18,954 --> 00:13:23,324 Stefan: Um, there are actually a few things I am thinking about. 258 00:13:23,354 --> 00:13:26,334 I don't know if we should talk about this here, but it's kind of interesting 259 00:13:26,334 --> 00:13:32,199 cause like the internet went through its own sort of revision with IPv4 to IPv6. 260 00:13:32,199 --> 00:13:36,665 So for those who don't know what follow network technology, um, IPv4 261 00:13:36,665 --> 00:13:40,955 was the original version of the internet that ended up being popular. 262 00:13:41,344 --> 00:13:43,954 I think a lot of internet traffic, I don't know what the numbers are, but, 263 00:13:44,135 --> 00:13:47,555 uh, probably the majority of internet traffic is still using IPv4 today. 264 00:13:47,555 --> 00:13:47,604 Okay. 265 00:13:48,175 --> 00:13:51,944 But there was sort of one big issue with IPv4 was that it was meant 266 00:13:51,954 --> 00:13:54,665 as a sort of a testing version. 267 00:13:54,665 --> 00:13:57,765 It wasn't really meant to be the thing that then takes off because 268 00:13:57,795 --> 00:13:59,835 it had a limited address space. 269 00:14:00,285 --> 00:14:04,045 When I say limited, it's like 4 billion, a little over 4 billion addresses. 270 00:14:04,045 --> 00:14:05,355 So it's, it's not that limited. 271 00:14:05,790 --> 00:14:08,610 But when you're trying to connect the whole world, like it 272 00:14:08,650 --> 00:14:10,000 does start to become an issue. 273 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,150 And with the number of devices that are trying to connect today, it's 274 00:14:13,150 --> 00:14:14,300 definitely become a bottleneck. 275 00:14:14,790 --> 00:14:16,250 And so that was the main driving force. 276 00:14:16,250 --> 00:14:19,970 But of course, when you're doing a revision to the core protocols, you 277 00:14:20,109 --> 00:14:22,189 try to make some other improvements. 278 00:14:22,209 --> 00:14:23,890 You cut some stuff you didn't end up needing. 279 00:14:23,899 --> 00:14:25,620 You add some stuff that was missing. 280 00:14:26,020 --> 00:14:29,110 And so there's a new version of the internet protocol called IPV6. 281 00:14:29,970 --> 00:14:32,990 And people are trying to roll it out and have been for many 282 00:14:32,990 --> 00:14:34,130 decades, several decades. 283 00:14:34,650 --> 00:14:35,190 And. 284 00:14:35,699 --> 00:14:40,529 We're sort of in a similar spot, I think, where like, you know, there is IPV4. 285 00:14:40,739 --> 00:14:41,519 It works great. 286 00:14:41,859 --> 00:14:44,739 It has all the things you need, but we're always thinking about like, 287 00:14:44,739 --> 00:14:46,820 what are some tweaks we could do here? 288 00:14:46,820 --> 00:14:48,360 Some, some things we could clean up. 289 00:14:48,819 --> 00:14:54,819 Um, I think one thing that is sort of a mistake that, that I 290 00:14:54,819 --> 00:14:59,239 pushed for at the time was the date format in the Intellidger 291 00:14:59,239 --> 00:15:01,520 packet is sort of a textual format. 292 00:15:02,260 --> 00:15:04,500 I'm not going to go through all the reasons why I thought that was a good 293 00:15:04,500 --> 00:15:09,020 idea, but I think like, Today, even when I'm writing my own implementations of it, 294 00:15:09,020 --> 00:15:13,600 I'm like, I wish it just, just a number, just like a lot of network protocols do 295 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:18,880 just use a, an integer, um, so kind of wish it was that there is a congestion 296 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:23,649 control mechanism in the internet protocol called explicit congestion notification. 297 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:29,310 CN again, it could get very technical here, but basically it allows the 298 00:15:29,310 --> 00:15:33,170 network to detect when congestion is about to happen without actually 299 00:15:33,170 --> 00:15:34,480 having to drop any packets. 300 00:15:34,490 --> 00:15:35,729 So it increases efficiency. 301 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,730 The internet was able to implement it because they had some bits 302 00:15:39,819 --> 00:15:43,390 available that they could sneak in and make these the ECN bits. 303 00:15:43,810 --> 00:15:47,630 We don't really have any spot for that in the intellectual protocol format. 304 00:15:47,630 --> 00:15:49,990 So yeah, we might make some tweaks and stuff. 305 00:15:49,990 --> 00:15:53,080 That's actually one of the conversations I'm very excited to have at the 306 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,020 summit in Cape town later this year. 307 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:56,949 Sabine: Likewise, Evan, do you have ideas? 308 00:15:57,170 --> 00:15:57,970 Stefan: Uh, no, 309 00:15:57,970 --> 00:15:58,939 Evan: I think it's good at this. 310 00:15:59,670 --> 00:16:04,430 Um, no, in all seriousness, I mean, the approach that we took with the 311 00:16:04,430 --> 00:16:07,740 different versions was we, we had this idea, like, we don't know what 312 00:16:07,740 --> 00:16:11,050 the final version will look like, but we'll know it when we see it. 313 00:16:11,405 --> 00:16:15,225 And I very distinctly remember when we had that feeling and it sort of gave 314 00:16:15,225 --> 00:16:19,375 us all goosebumps at the time because we had spent so much time poring 315 00:16:19,375 --> 00:16:21,675 over, like, how much can we remove? 316 00:16:21,775 --> 00:16:24,014 Do we really need this aspect? 317 00:16:24,014 --> 00:16:27,635 And we had a couple of different protocols that were part of 318 00:16:27,665 --> 00:16:29,735 what we called ILP at the time. 319 00:16:30,115 --> 00:16:34,005 We had a couple more fields in the packet. 320 00:16:34,015 --> 00:16:36,205 We debated, do we need a packet format? 321 00:16:36,225 --> 00:16:40,545 I was the proponent of not until convinced that it was a better idea to have a 322 00:16:40,545 --> 00:16:46,264 specific format and we like really poured over every aspect of it to try to see, 323 00:16:46,264 --> 00:16:48,134 is there anything we can rip out of here? 324 00:16:48,155 --> 00:16:53,730 And when we got to the What we considered at the time the final version, or I think 325 00:16:53,740 --> 00:16:58,790 still sort of do, or I still do, let's say, uh, we had that feeling of there's 326 00:16:58,790 --> 00:17:03,640 nothing left to take out for the thing that Stefan mentioned, I would be curious 327 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:08,989 whether, like, that extra bit would be possible to add in a non breaking way so 328 00:17:09,010 --> 00:17:11,300 that, like, maybe there's a version 4. 329 00:17:11,349 --> 00:17:15,940 1, but Ideally, not a five or not a five for a long time, because 330 00:17:15,940 --> 00:17:19,849 I think there's a lot of value in maintaining interoperability 331 00:17:19,849 --> 00:17:21,390 and not making breaking changes. 332 00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:23,400 Stefan: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. 333 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,560 I think it's for protocol designers. 334 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,929 It's always very tempting to make breaking changes because you 335 00:17:28,929 --> 00:17:30,580 always see the next shiny object. 336 00:17:31,129 --> 00:17:36,309 But especially when you're trying to get the new protocols off the ground, that 337 00:17:36,309 --> 00:17:38,280 can be a big problem if you can't see. 338 00:17:38,770 --> 00:17:39,510 Kill the momentum, 339 00:17:39,990 --> 00:17:42,920 Sabine: I'm not going to lie, I am a fan of that current version as 340 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:47,220 is, but I mean, there's the, the intellectual protocol itself, but then 341 00:17:47,220 --> 00:17:48,760 there's also the intellectual stack. 342 00:17:48,780 --> 00:17:52,920 So we have multiple protocols that all together define kind of what intellectual 343 00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:55,449 is and you design all of them. 344 00:17:55,450 --> 00:17:57,319 So maybe this one is for Evan. 345 00:17:57,319 --> 00:17:58,759 What's your favorite one in there? 346 00:17:58,969 --> 00:18:00,740 What do you think is the most rounded? 347 00:18:01,255 --> 00:18:03,075 Evan: Definitely ILP itself. 348 00:18:03,205 --> 00:18:07,715 So the the idea of the stack is similar to the internet There's there's different 349 00:18:07,725 --> 00:18:11,805 layers of of the internet stack different people draw the lines in different places 350 00:18:11,824 --> 00:18:17,335 But roughly you have you have networking which on the internet that's technologies 351 00:18:17,335 --> 00:18:21,595 like Ethernet you have internet working Which is the internet protocol? 352 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,980 And that the only job of the internet protocol is just saying, 353 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,180 I have this packet of data. 354 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:27,629 Can you get it over there? 355 00:18:27,850 --> 00:18:31,340 And it defines what over there means, but it doesn't tell you anything 356 00:18:31,340 --> 00:18:35,010 about how to get over there, how fast you need to get it there. 357 00:18:35,020 --> 00:18:38,459 How like it's just like a way of saying over there. 358 00:18:38,850 --> 00:18:41,389 And then on top of that, you build all of the reliability 359 00:18:41,389 --> 00:18:42,969 stuff that Stefan had mentioned. 360 00:18:43,270 --> 00:18:47,760 All of the web and all those technologies are higher level and the whole idea with 361 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:52,989 the end to end principle that Stefan mentioned is that by trying to simplify 362 00:18:52,989 --> 00:18:56,659 the core as much as possible, you make it so that we don't really have to 363 00:18:56,669 --> 00:19:02,539 agree on that much across the entire thing, and that allows it to evolve on 364 00:19:02,550 --> 00:19:04,469 the higher levels and the lower levels. 365 00:19:04,479 --> 00:19:09,399 So the technologies that the Internet was built on have changed Many, many times. 366 00:19:09,399 --> 00:19:12,730 And there's been a lot of innovation on the networking layer. 367 00:19:12,770 --> 00:19:15,720 And there's also been new protocols that have been built on top of it. 368 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,100 And that's one of the things that's, that's really, really cool. 369 00:19:18,409 --> 00:19:22,350 Interledger tries to take that same approach so we can have new, 370 00:19:22,459 --> 00:19:26,739 new ledger technologies that it's built on and then new application 371 00:19:26,790 --> 00:19:28,260 protocols that are built on top of it. 372 00:19:28,260 --> 00:19:31,820 But the idea is that the interledger protocol should stay the same 373 00:19:31,830 --> 00:19:34,120 because it's just trying to define. 374 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,570 Can you get this money over there and similar to the Internet, it's defining 375 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:44,859 how you address things and how you say over there, but not saying how 376 00:19:44,860 --> 00:19:46,700 you get there or anything like that. 377 00:19:46,750 --> 00:19:50,199 Stefan: Well, I'll have a different answer because I just worked on a pre 378 00:19:50,199 --> 00:19:52,240 implementation of the stream protocol. 379 00:19:52,629 --> 00:19:55,740 So we're talking about the end to end principle, trying to get all that 380 00:19:55,740 --> 00:19:59,880 complexity out of the ILP intelligent protocol and moving at one layer up. 381 00:20:00,190 --> 00:20:02,220 Well, that layer up is the stream protocol. 382 00:20:02,590 --> 00:20:08,060 And so I think a lot of the credit for why IntelliJ is so simple actually belongs to 383 00:20:08,060 --> 00:20:12,030 the stream protocol because that's, what's allowing IntelliJ to be more simple. 384 00:20:12,470 --> 00:20:15,799 And, um, you know, Evan was the one who developed a lot of stream 385 00:20:15,799 --> 00:20:17,789 and designed it and implemented it. 386 00:20:18,060 --> 00:20:21,320 And I hadn't even really looked at the implementation back then. 387 00:20:21,580 --> 00:20:25,800 And so over the last couple of months, when I was re implementing it, Just to 388 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,850 kind of learn it better, I really got a much deeper appreciation for all the 389 00:20:29,860 --> 00:20:31,440 thought and design that went into it. 390 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,490 So my, my answer would be the stream protocol. 391 00:20:33,629 --> 00:20:33,970 I love it. 392 00:20:33,970 --> 00:20:34,560 It's really cool. 393 00:20:34,975 --> 00:20:39,375 Evan: Well, I will repass that credit onto the QUIC protocol designers because 394 00:20:39,754 --> 00:20:45,224 QUIC is a newer version of kind of replacement of TCP, which is kind of 395 00:20:45,225 --> 00:20:47,004 an important protocol on the Internet. 396 00:20:47,235 --> 00:20:52,305 Um, and QUIC is a newer version that adds a lot more fancy features, and that's 397 00:20:52,374 --> 00:20:57,315 based on a lot of years of people using TCP and finding all the problems with it. 398 00:20:57,625 --> 00:21:00,175 And so QUIC was a really well designed protocol, and we were 399 00:21:00,175 --> 00:21:01,305 kind of like, okay, great. 400 00:21:01,635 --> 00:21:03,175 If we want to design. 401 00:21:03,730 --> 00:21:08,220 Transport layer protocol for interledger can we take inspiration not from the 402 00:21:08,260 --> 00:21:12,190 original version of the Internet's transport protocol, but also from what 403 00:21:12,190 --> 00:21:14,080 they learned in the subsequent decades. 404 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:18,689 And so a lot of the time spent developing stream was basically like 405 00:21:18,869 --> 00:21:22,000 I had the RFC for a quick open on one. 406 00:21:22,159 --> 00:21:25,879 In one tab and then a parallel one was like writing, okay, 407 00:21:26,159 --> 00:21:27,909 that seems relevant for us too. 408 00:21:27,909 --> 00:21:28,179 Great. 409 00:21:28,179 --> 00:21:29,230 Let's copy that idea. 410 00:21:29,230 --> 00:21:30,340 Oh, great, great, great. 411 00:21:30,409 --> 00:21:34,359 And that was, that was a great jumping off point to build that protocol. 412 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:37,060 So most of that credit belongs to the quick authors. 413 00:21:37,550 --> 00:21:40,399 Sabine: Stefan, you've mentioned Darcy now twice. 414 00:21:40,410 --> 00:21:42,850 You've mentioned it early on and now you said you've been 415 00:21:42,850 --> 00:21:44,100 working on a re implementation. 416 00:21:44,110 --> 00:21:48,190 Do you want to tell us a little more about Darcy and what your goal is with Darcy? 417 00:21:48,459 --> 00:21:50,229 Stefan: Yeah, I would say that. 418 00:21:51,385 --> 00:21:54,125 It's interesting to think that we've been working on this now for 10 419 00:21:54,135 --> 00:21:55,825 years, like a little over 10 years. 420 00:21:56,375 --> 00:22:00,114 And if you'd asked me like, where would, where are we going to be in 10 421 00:22:00,125 --> 00:22:04,960 years, like 10 years ago, I probably would have said that the adoption 422 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:06,830 would be further along than it is. 423 00:22:06,870 --> 00:22:07,220 Right. 424 00:22:07,550 --> 00:22:11,560 And so I think that, you know, I, I will say that I'm personally made a 425 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,939 lot of mistakes in terms of like the strategies to pursue and how to drive 426 00:22:14,939 --> 00:22:19,009 adoption and some of the decisions along the way, but thankfully those 427 00:22:19,010 --> 00:22:21,799 are all, you know, transitory, right? 428 00:22:21,819 --> 00:22:26,319 Like you, you make a mistake in the strategy for adoption, you learn from 429 00:22:26,319 --> 00:22:27,790 it, you try a different approach. 430 00:22:28,210 --> 00:22:32,509 The parts I'm much more happy with is this, how the actual protocols 431 00:22:32,510 --> 00:22:33,550 are designed and everything. 432 00:22:34,020 --> 00:22:38,050 But in the vein of like how, what's a better strategy, the best success 433 00:22:38,050 --> 00:22:43,920 that we've had with Intellidger were probably in 2019 when we had sort of a 434 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:48,390 community network built around Codius and Intellidger and people could run their own 435 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,010 Intellidger nodes and things like that. 436 00:22:50,550 --> 00:22:53,190 And I remember that time as being very dynamic. 437 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,970 Like this was the time where, you know, somebody made a dashboard for 438 00:22:56,990 --> 00:23:00,650 seeing the status of the Codius network that we had no idea this was coming. 439 00:23:00,650 --> 00:23:03,690 We don't know, I think we still don't know who built it or just, I don't know. 440 00:23:04,170 --> 00:23:06,310 Um, and it just sort of popped up and it was amazing. 441 00:23:06,710 --> 00:23:14,159 And I really regret that at the time we sort of said like, okay, we have to move 442 00:23:14,219 --> 00:23:18,620 towards like more regulated institutions and working with these like, you know, 443 00:23:18,750 --> 00:23:20,240 traditional financial institutions. 444 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,810 And so the community network kind of needs to take a step back and we stopped 445 00:23:23,810 --> 00:23:26,960 supporting it and we kind of actively discouraged people from doing that. 446 00:23:27,459 --> 00:23:30,959 And I think it was a huge mistake because for a community to grow 447 00:23:30,959 --> 00:23:33,889 and thrive, like people need to be able to actually do something. 448 00:23:34,324 --> 00:23:36,485 Um, and participate and, and so on. 449 00:23:36,975 --> 00:23:41,545 And so I wanted to bring some of that spirit back to the project. 450 00:23:41,605 --> 00:23:46,104 And, you know, we are living in these amazing times where there are all 451 00:23:46,104 --> 00:23:49,884 these blockchains and you can just, you know, write some code and it'll connect 452 00:23:49,885 --> 00:23:51,624 up and you generate a private key. 453 00:23:51,624 --> 00:23:53,355 And so suddenly you can send money around. 454 00:23:53,365 --> 00:23:57,475 And so I was very interested in bringing that feeling back. 455 00:23:57,935 --> 00:24:00,665 Dossi is a peer to peer implementation of Intellecture. 456 00:24:00,775 --> 00:24:01,945 So rather than. 457 00:24:02,405 --> 00:24:05,305 It's being meant to be run by centralized organizations. 458 00:24:05,305 --> 00:24:08,345 It's sort of something that you just download, you run it, and it does stuff. 459 00:24:08,395 --> 00:24:09,505 It does intellectual stuff. 460 00:24:10,045 --> 00:24:12,095 Um, it speaks all the intellectual protocols. 461 00:24:12,500 --> 00:24:16,520 From the bottom of the stack all the way up to stream, uh, and even open 462 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,320 payments, which we haven't mentioned yet, but that's sort of a, how to 463 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,399 negotiate a payment, like how much should I pay that sort of thing. 464 00:24:22,890 --> 00:24:28,530 And, um, it's my hope that, uh, people try it out and play around with it and 465 00:24:28,730 --> 00:24:33,530 learn about intellectual that way and hopefully drive the adoption forward. 466 00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:41,540 Ayesha: Hey there listeners, you're tuned into the future money podcast, 467 00:24:41,939 --> 00:24:45,320 where we explore everything related to digital financial inclusion. 468 00:24:45,659 --> 00:24:49,749 I'm Aisha Ware, program manager at the Intellectual Foundation, and 469 00:24:49,750 --> 00:24:51,419 we've got something exciting for you. 470 00:24:51,870 --> 00:24:56,185 But before we dive back into the episode, I wanted to share a project I was 471 00:24:56,185 --> 00:25:01,255 involved in collaboration with Carolyn Malachi and students at Howard University 472 00:25:01,395 --> 00:25:03,245 audio advanced production course. 473 00:25:03,805 --> 00:25:07,085 The course is a capstone for seniors in the audio sequence. 474 00:25:07,574 --> 00:25:11,015 It is designed to challenge students to develop long form audio 475 00:25:11,015 --> 00:25:15,645 productions, including podcasts, audio books, film scores, and more. 476 00:25:16,170 --> 00:25:19,660 Through this project, students created interstitials about Interledger 477 00:25:19,660 --> 00:25:20,970 for our Future Money podcast. 478 00:25:21,580 --> 00:25:26,620 Here is a sample from Shamari Hall, a 2023 graduate of Howard University. 479 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:27,599 Stay tuned. 480 00:25:28,580 --> 00:25:30,160 Shomari: Welcome to the Interledger Summit. 481 00:25:30,729 --> 00:25:34,369 Join us as we bring together innovators, regulators, and advocates 482 00:25:34,369 --> 00:25:38,100 for financial inclusion to shape the future of digital financial services. 483 00:25:38,820 --> 00:25:40,340 Hear from change makers. 484 00:25:40,615 --> 00:25:44,334 Problem solvers and visionaries who are working to create a more equitable and 485 00:25:44,415 --> 00:25:45,945 connected world through Interledger. 486 00:25:46,465 --> 00:25:49,904 Don't miss the chance to network, discuss ideas, and to be a part 487 00:25:49,905 --> 00:25:52,874 of a movement that's transforming financial services for everyone. 488 00:25:53,664 --> 00:25:54,855 Visit interledger. 489 00:25:54,885 --> 00:25:58,964 org slash summit to learn more and explore how digital finance 490 00:25:59,165 --> 00:26:01,085 Can benefit everyone, every way. 491 00:26:06,255 --> 00:26:08,255 Ayesha: Thanks for listening to Shamari sample. 492 00:26:08,715 --> 00:26:12,605 We hope you enjoy the rest of the episode with Stefan Thomas and Evan Schwartz. 493 00:26:17,024 --> 00:26:19,634 Sabine: Well, now that you've mentioned Codius, I have to ask you 494 00:26:19,634 --> 00:26:21,584 to explain Codius to the audience. 495 00:26:21,935 --> 00:26:25,605 Stefan: Well, Codius is an interesting one because in some ways it's the 496 00:26:25,615 --> 00:26:31,974 sort of missing link between, um, the blockchain era and like when we 497 00:26:31,974 --> 00:26:33,285 were working on blockchain a lot. 498 00:26:33,709 --> 00:26:37,840 And the Intellidger era, basically, you know, I was very 499 00:26:37,860 --> 00:26:39,230 interested in smart contracts. 500 00:26:39,270 --> 00:26:42,800 Um, I helped start the Swiss meetup group for Bitcoin, which was one 501 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,800 of the groups that like really dove deep on smart contracts. 502 00:26:46,139 --> 00:26:50,329 When I was working for Ripple early on, I was working on, uh, 503 00:26:50,339 --> 00:26:51,969 general purpose smart contracts. 504 00:26:51,969 --> 00:26:56,720 So Bitcoin had this sort of very minimal, uh, stack based 505 00:26:56,790 --> 00:26:58,310 scripting language built in. 506 00:26:58,915 --> 00:27:01,524 So we were thinking about like, what would it look like if you built 507 00:27:01,524 --> 00:27:04,225 like a general purpose programming language into a blockchain? 508 00:27:04,774 --> 00:27:07,324 And, you know, somebody was crashing on my couch at the time 509 00:27:07,324 --> 00:27:10,625 was Vitalik, so he clearly got somewhat inspired by that work. 510 00:27:11,095 --> 00:27:14,965 And so, you know, that sort of evolved over time and I think that got to a 511 00:27:14,965 --> 00:27:19,615 point where I was like, okay, why are we even trying to build all the logic 512 00:27:19,675 --> 00:27:22,754 into, into the blockchain itself anyway? 513 00:27:22,754 --> 00:27:26,375 Like the, a blockchain is this sort of thing where, as 514 00:27:26,375 --> 00:27:27,455 I mentioned at the beginning. 515 00:27:27,885 --> 00:27:30,075 You're running everything many, many times. 516 00:27:30,105 --> 00:27:32,885 And so it's very computationally expensive already. 517 00:27:33,235 --> 00:27:37,034 So why are you doing all of your logic on that layer? 518 00:27:37,514 --> 00:27:43,075 The way we do it in most software architecture is we have a database 519 00:27:43,184 --> 00:27:47,114 and then we have our business logic separate from that, you know, you 520 00:27:47,114 --> 00:27:48,274 have a separate layer for that. 521 00:27:48,695 --> 00:27:52,215 And so, you know, we started to think about like, okay, you know, this 522 00:27:52,215 --> 00:27:55,465 was Evan and I back in the day as well, you know, thinking about like, 523 00:27:55,465 --> 00:27:58,485 okay, so we have the blockchain, which is kind of our data layer. 524 00:27:58,940 --> 00:28:03,090 Well, what would a decentralized business logic layer look like? 525 00:28:03,150 --> 00:28:04,820 And that became the Codeus project. 526 00:28:04,820 --> 00:28:09,590 And the basic idea is just, okay, you have these stateless systems, so they are 527 00:28:09,590 --> 00:28:14,850 not databases and all they do is they run your code, but you can have many of them. 528 00:28:15,445 --> 00:28:19,285 And they then might make transactions against the blockchain. 529 00:28:19,295 --> 00:28:21,985 They might query some traditional API, et cetera. 530 00:28:22,145 --> 00:28:25,004 It's, it's actually kind of a pretty simple idea. 531 00:28:25,004 --> 00:28:27,604 You just have this like group of nodes that does stuff for you. 532 00:28:27,964 --> 00:28:30,695 And that way you implement smart contracts in a more flexible way. 533 00:28:31,434 --> 00:28:34,505 But the problem we ran into very quickly was, okay. 534 00:28:35,014 --> 00:28:39,175 So we have this very neutral smart contracts layer, you know, the 535 00:28:39,175 --> 00:28:42,425 smart contracts layer, that's not tied to any particular blockchain. 536 00:28:42,435 --> 00:28:43,935 You could use it with any blockchain. 537 00:28:43,935 --> 00:28:45,455 You could use it across blockchains. 538 00:28:45,875 --> 00:28:49,794 You could use it across non blockchain systems, but you kind 539 00:28:49,794 --> 00:28:55,185 of have to pay these hosts that are running the code for you and. 540 00:28:55,834 --> 00:28:58,215 You could pay them with a credit card or something like that. 541 00:28:58,215 --> 00:28:59,414 But that seems very clunky. 542 00:28:59,414 --> 00:29:02,885 Like you're trying to pay a hundred different hosts with a hundred different 543 00:29:02,885 --> 00:29:04,915 credit card payments of 12 cents. 544 00:29:04,915 --> 00:29:06,245 Like that seems very inefficient. 545 00:29:06,654 --> 00:29:10,725 And so I think that was partly what prompted the need for the efficiency that 546 00:29:10,735 --> 00:29:12,225 that intellectual brings to the table. 547 00:29:12,235 --> 00:29:12,504 So. 548 00:29:12,935 --> 00:29:16,824 I think Codius has always been this sort of idea that everyone's 549 00:29:16,824 --> 00:29:17,814 still very interested in. 550 00:29:17,824 --> 00:29:22,834 It still seems like a very good idea, but it's taken a bit of a backseat compared 551 00:29:22,834 --> 00:29:26,575 to IntelliJ because IntelliJ seems like the thing that you need to enable it. 552 00:29:27,094 --> 00:29:31,715 Currently, there is a bit of work going on on Codius here at Coil. 553 00:29:32,074 --> 00:29:33,774 You know, we haven't shut down entirely. 554 00:29:34,034 --> 00:29:36,094 We've, you know, spun down quite a lot, but we still have 555 00:29:36,094 --> 00:29:37,364 some, some things going on. 556 00:29:37,364 --> 00:29:38,414 And one of those things is. 557 00:29:40,014 --> 00:29:42,774 So I don't want to say too much yet because it's obviously 558 00:29:43,215 --> 00:29:44,455 still very early days. 559 00:29:44,764 --> 00:29:45,475 Sabine: Very exciting. 560 00:29:45,485 --> 00:29:47,665 Codeus is what got me hooked on Interledger. 561 00:29:48,215 --> 00:29:53,924 Evan, any other project going on around Interledger early on that I 562 00:29:53,925 --> 00:29:56,415 don't know about, is there anything else that you experimented with? 563 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,190 Evan: I think one of the coolest parts about interledger is that neutrality 564 00:30:01,210 --> 00:30:04,460 point, which is kind of what, what Stefan was mentioning is like why you 565 00:30:04,470 --> 00:30:05,810 need something like that for codies. 566 00:30:05,819 --> 00:30:07,610 He mentioned the efficiency. 567 00:30:07,859 --> 00:30:09,809 I think the other important point is the neutrality. 568 00:30:09,809 --> 00:30:11,950 Like you're not picking one. 569 00:30:12,465 --> 00:30:17,645 Blockchain, which, you know, then all the initial people that got in on that early 570 00:30:17,645 --> 00:30:21,575 get super rich and you're not picking like one company's technology, you're 571 00:30:21,575 --> 00:30:23,315 picking kind of a more neutral standard. 572 00:30:23,315 --> 00:30:27,574 And so, um, like one of the toy experiments that that I had done back 573 00:30:27,574 --> 00:30:31,175 in the really back in the day was like integrating it with torrenting 574 00:30:31,805 --> 00:30:36,355 with the idea that torrents are an efficient way of downloading media files 575 00:30:36,355 --> 00:30:37,885 and other and other types of files. 576 00:30:38,425 --> 00:30:42,355 But the two problems with it is you have both an unfairness about like the actual 577 00:30:42,385 --> 00:30:46,525 torrent network, but then also the content creators don't get paid, which is why it's 578 00:30:46,525 --> 00:30:48,795 historically been associated with piracy. 579 00:30:49,195 --> 00:30:53,085 And with something like interledger, you could actually have the original content 580 00:30:53,085 --> 00:30:56,695 creators get paid along with the people that are, that are helping torrent. 581 00:30:56,805 --> 00:31:00,795 And so that was something that we had played with as well, which relies on that 582 00:31:00,995 --> 00:31:04,355 neutrality and the currency agnosticism. 583 00:31:04,625 --> 00:31:06,845 That was another example of something that we played with. 584 00:31:07,585 --> 00:31:11,595 Stefan: It's actually really interesting hearing you talk about torrenting, because 585 00:31:12,005 --> 00:31:16,675 it sort of reminds me about like how the world has moved in a certain direction. 586 00:31:16,685 --> 00:31:21,194 Like, you know, so many of the ways that we interact with digital services 587 00:31:21,195 --> 00:31:22,935 today is very, very centralized. 588 00:31:22,955 --> 00:31:28,225 You have these gigantic companies, they have gigantic social media networks, 589 00:31:28,245 --> 00:31:31,195 you know, I don't have to list all the names, but you know, the usual suspects. 590 00:31:31,745 --> 00:31:35,235 And, you know, when, when Evan and I, when we were growing up, like, you 591 00:31:35,235 --> 00:31:38,255 know, there was the web, you know, and there were lots of different websites 592 00:31:38,275 --> 00:31:39,965 and obviously that still exists. 593 00:31:39,975 --> 00:31:47,144 It's just really outshined at the moment by these very large hubs that sort of have 594 00:31:47,175 --> 00:31:49,525 taken over the mass of, of internet use. 595 00:31:50,180 --> 00:31:53,120 And, um, it's kind of interesting that that is happening at the same 596 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:59,290 time as some of these decentralization technologies, you know, making progress. 597 00:31:59,290 --> 00:32:03,990 And there's so many projects like, uh, Blue Sky and Nostr and, and 598 00:32:03,990 --> 00:32:07,420 Mastodon, all these different things that are trying to distribute these. 599 00:32:07,879 --> 00:32:13,700 And I really wonder, like, what is the missing piece that really makes it flip 600 00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:18,170 over and, and makes those services more attractive than the very centralized ones. 601 00:32:18,585 --> 00:32:21,825 I think one of the things that you can certainly speculate 602 00:32:21,885 --> 00:32:23,805 might be part of that is. 603 00:32:24,305 --> 00:32:26,895 The ability to create business models. 604 00:32:26,895 --> 00:32:32,165 Cause like, if I can, you know, be on one social media network where I get 605 00:32:32,165 --> 00:32:36,675 paid ad revenue and I can make money, but then I'm on a decentralized version 606 00:32:36,675 --> 00:32:38,385 of that, but I don't get any ad revenue. 607 00:32:38,385 --> 00:32:39,264 I don't get any money. 608 00:32:39,295 --> 00:32:43,325 Then obviously I'm going to go with the, the mainstream thing that pays me. 609 00:32:43,325 --> 00:32:43,555 Right. 610 00:32:44,105 --> 00:32:48,925 And so I always wanted there to be like an alternative where you 611 00:32:48,925 --> 00:32:52,795 could make a living by creating content, by publishing content. 612 00:32:53,260 --> 00:32:59,380 But still not be below one of these, you know, centralized platforms or be 613 00:32:59,380 --> 00:33:00,930 beholden to a centralized platforms. 614 00:33:00,930 --> 00:33:05,380 And I think that that's still very much like people are looking for that solution. 615 00:33:05,390 --> 00:33:07,320 It's just, nobody has quite got the recipe, right? 616 00:33:07,830 --> 00:33:11,860 I think for us, like the, the part that we're focused on as the IntelliJ 617 00:33:11,870 --> 00:33:15,290 community is like, let's make sure IntelliJ is the best protocol for that. 618 00:33:15,710 --> 00:33:19,110 And then when somebody wants to get the recipe, right, they, they reach 619 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:20,940 for IntelliJ to solve that problem. 620 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:26,160 Sabine: Since you mentioned the web and online, so how do you see a universal 621 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:31,550 payments network like Intellidger building more equitable opportunities online? 622 00:33:31,700 --> 00:33:35,569 Evan: One of the things I always found super exciting Intellidger 623 00:33:35,569 --> 00:33:36,620 is that it's hard to say. 624 00:33:36,700 --> 00:33:42,930 Um, because I think when the internet was, was rolling out, it was not 625 00:33:42,980 --> 00:33:47,360 obvious how widespread it would become and how ubiquitous it would become. 626 00:33:47,860 --> 00:33:49,960 And I think that's sort of the. 627 00:33:50,455 --> 00:33:54,465 Potential which is both like very interesting and also to be honest a 628 00:33:54,465 --> 00:33:58,015 little bit scary with something like interledger where I think it has the 629 00:33:58,015 --> 00:34:00,835 potential to Be everywhere in a sense. 630 00:34:00,885 --> 00:34:06,524 Um, and the the idea of making it such that there's like one universal payment 631 00:34:06,605 --> 00:34:13,615 Network or internetwork such that anyone can pay anyone for anything basically it 632 00:34:14,095 --> 00:34:18,844 Would make it possible to include that in a lot more places So stefano mentioned, 633 00:34:18,965 --> 00:34:23,544 uh the web and obviously like way more of society and life is being hooked up to 634 00:34:23,544 --> 00:34:29,105 the internet and The payment experience is kind of clunky still and so you that does 635 00:34:29,175 --> 00:34:34,895 push towards centralization with Services that can hold on to your credit card 636 00:34:34,905 --> 00:34:39,885 details and then charge you little amounts every once in a while So with interledger, 637 00:34:40,285 --> 00:34:44,934 you could have payment experiences that are much more Seamless that are hooked 638 00:34:44,935 --> 00:34:49,494 up to a lot more places so that that could be ranging from like paying for 639 00:34:49,544 --> 00:34:56,145 transit in different countries to Uh, consuming content or any, any type of 640 00:34:56,225 --> 00:35:00,575 business transaction that you do instead of this discussion around like, Oh, what 641 00:35:00,575 --> 00:35:02,435 payment network should we use for this? 642 00:35:02,675 --> 00:35:05,715 You just say, here's the money and then it's done. 643 00:35:06,125 --> 00:35:09,144 That's a little bit of a vague answer, but it, I do think it's 644 00:35:09,145 --> 00:35:12,704 a little bit hard to predict how something like that would work. 645 00:35:12,975 --> 00:35:16,205 Roll out or like what kind of applications people would end up with? 646 00:35:16,235 --> 00:35:20,095 Because I think a lot of the most exciting applications of the internet were things 647 00:35:20,095 --> 00:35:24,515 that probably would have been very difficult to foresee before it started 648 00:35:24,925 --> 00:35:25,555 Stefan: rolling out. 649 00:35:25,824 --> 00:35:26,124 Wow. 650 00:35:26,125 --> 00:35:27,295 That's a deep topic. 651 00:35:27,295 --> 00:35:33,985 I mean, you know, I started a startup coil, um, in 2018, which was 652 00:35:34,125 --> 00:35:37,095 essentially built around that question. 653 00:35:37,495 --> 00:35:38,665 And so. 654 00:35:39,135 --> 00:35:43,035 I would say that over the years, we've learned a lot in terms of like how the 655 00:35:43,735 --> 00:35:46,135 ecosystem of the web actually works. 656 00:35:46,705 --> 00:35:51,084 I think one of the things that you would hear a lot, and also that we thought 657 00:35:51,084 --> 00:35:54,855 about a lot when going into it was this idea that like, can we get rid of ads? 658 00:35:54,855 --> 00:35:59,874 Cause ads seem kind of annoying and they seem kind of a distraction, but 659 00:36:01,045 --> 00:36:08,864 the issue is that what ads really do is they sort of solve in a very elegant 660 00:36:08,864 --> 00:36:11,215 or seamless way, the problem that like. 661 00:36:11,755 --> 00:36:15,375 You're getting this like small amount of value from consuming content. 662 00:36:15,980 --> 00:36:20,290 And there's also a lot of value in companies trying to get 663 00:36:20,290 --> 00:36:21,510 their product out there, right? 664 00:36:21,510 --> 00:36:24,540 Like you'd say you're an inventor, you know, Evan says he's an inventor 665 00:36:24,810 --> 00:36:25,740 and he's invented lots of things. 666 00:36:26,109 --> 00:36:28,130 How does he get people to use his inventions? 667 00:36:28,130 --> 00:36:28,270 Right? 668 00:36:28,290 --> 00:36:29,729 Like he's got to market it somewhere. 669 00:36:29,729 --> 00:36:31,019 He's got to advertise it somewhere. 670 00:36:31,019 --> 00:36:31,299 Right. 671 00:36:31,700 --> 00:36:35,470 And so that is a very important function to fulfill. 672 00:36:35,630 --> 00:36:36,950 And so you can't just get rid of ads. 673 00:36:36,950 --> 00:36:40,750 They create a lot of value on both sides, not just in the things that they fund, 674 00:36:40,750 --> 00:36:46,065 but also in the things that they market, you know, And so I think that if I had 675 00:36:46,075 --> 00:36:52,974 to make a prediction on how something like IntelliJ could help in the future is 676 00:36:52,984 --> 00:37:00,475 maybe creating a bit more flexibility in terms of maybe I want to consume ads from 677 00:37:00,765 --> 00:37:06,075 this source, and then I want to take the money that I made from consuming those ads 678 00:37:06,365 --> 00:37:09,825 and then use that to pay for the content that I'm consuming from that source. 679 00:37:09,855 --> 00:37:11,065 And it doesn't have to be. 680 00:37:11,395 --> 00:37:13,775 All linked together, because I think that's where a lot 681 00:37:13,775 --> 00:37:15,255 of the friction comes from. 682 00:37:15,255 --> 00:37:19,225 You have advertisers that don't want to advertise on YouTube because 683 00:37:19,245 --> 00:37:24,494 their beautiful new product is going to be next to a not so nice video. 684 00:37:24,755 --> 00:37:28,305 And so then YouTube cracks down on what you can say in your videos. 685 00:37:28,605 --> 00:37:31,305 And so then everyone is upset because, you know, their particular 686 00:37:31,305 --> 00:37:35,265 community, that type of discourse is okay, but it might not be brand safe. 687 00:37:35,265 --> 00:37:37,485 And so then they complain that they're being censored. 688 00:37:37,825 --> 00:37:40,624 And so there's like all these different things that create friction when 689 00:37:40,624 --> 00:37:44,485 you put the content and the, the ads very tightly coupled together. 690 00:37:44,860 --> 00:37:47,950 Not to mention the centralization that you get where it's like, if you're a 691 00:37:47,950 --> 00:37:50,950 content creator and you get kicked off of YouTube, it's not like there's an 692 00:37:50,980 --> 00:37:55,260 equally large long form video sharing website that you can go to instead. 693 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,759 It's sort of like, you know, you're going to a much smaller platform 694 00:37:58,759 --> 00:38:04,390 from there, you know, and so I think that the biggest opportunity is to 695 00:38:04,770 --> 00:38:09,700 make it so that there can be lots of little hubs and they're all kind of. 696 00:38:10,135 --> 00:38:14,345 Working together in the sense that like, if I, if there's one hub over here that 697 00:38:14,345 --> 00:38:18,805 has very relevant ads, and I really like watching their ads, I can somehow 698 00:38:18,805 --> 00:38:23,735 hook that into my client and then go consume the content from over here. 699 00:38:23,745 --> 00:38:26,704 And everyone's kind of happy that that's, that's sort of the vision. 700 00:38:27,685 --> 00:38:30,005 I think there, I glossed over a lot of the complexity. 701 00:38:30,005 --> 00:38:34,115 So there's still a lot of work to be done before we can see that, uh, realized. 702 00:38:34,615 --> 00:38:39,715 Sabine: And then maybe moving even broader outside of online to the real world. 703 00:38:40,115 --> 00:38:41,054 Evan, what do you think? 704 00:38:41,054 --> 00:38:46,214 How will Interledger impact, uh, individuals or the society in large? 705 00:38:46,324 --> 00:38:50,075 Evan: I'm excited about playing around with Dossi some more, and that's not, 706 00:38:50,135 --> 00:38:54,804 that's not quite the deep discussion, but I think actually going from, you know, 707 00:38:55,225 --> 00:39:00,835 Lots of discussions to being able to just spin it up and use it is quite exciting, 708 00:39:00,845 --> 00:39:05,455 because I think as Stefan was mentioning before, the community kind of needs that 709 00:39:05,485 --> 00:39:11,455 dynamism of actually using it and building things and being able to, like, make, 710 00:39:11,514 --> 00:39:13,355 make it real, not just talk about it. 711 00:39:13,544 --> 00:39:14,955 Stefan: Yeah, I agree with that. 712 00:39:15,015 --> 00:39:19,595 I think the, the nature of predictions is that you're going to be wrong anyway. 713 00:39:19,635 --> 00:39:20,865 So it's like, why not? 714 00:39:21,275 --> 00:39:25,975 I think the, the best thing you can do is you can look at past experiences and you 715 00:39:25,975 --> 00:39:30,315 can try to find general principles that seem to apply across different categories. 716 00:39:30,345 --> 00:39:34,085 And like one of those general principles for me is that when you 717 00:39:34,094 --> 00:39:38,884 have a system that, you know, is very important, it's very central, such as 718 00:39:38,905 --> 00:39:42,475 the communication system in the case of the internet and the payments, 719 00:39:42,665 --> 00:39:45,245 the world of payments and economic exchange in the case of Intellidger, 720 00:39:45,645 --> 00:39:46,805 when you have a system like that. 721 00:39:47,265 --> 00:39:51,245 And there are inherent transaction costs, there's sort of a floor, like, you 722 00:39:51,245 --> 00:39:56,314 know, anytime you do anything, you pay this much, you know, then whenever you 723 00:39:56,315 --> 00:40:01,365 lower that floor, it's not just lowering the cost of the transactions that are 724 00:40:01,385 --> 00:40:04,504 currently happening or the things that are currently happening, so those get 725 00:40:04,504 --> 00:40:09,455 cheaper, sure, but then what happens is that there is You know, a hundred times, 726 00:40:09,485 --> 00:40:13,385 a thousand times more transactions that weren't happening because it's just 727 00:40:13,395 --> 00:40:15,475 wasn't worth it for those use cases. 728 00:40:15,725 --> 00:40:18,714 And so with the internet, it's like the amount of data being transmitted 729 00:40:18,715 --> 00:40:21,264 has gone up millions of times. 730 00:40:21,264 --> 00:40:24,675 You know, I don't know how many orders of magnitude, but many orders of magnitude. 731 00:40:24,954 --> 00:40:29,195 And then in the case of, um, trading, for example, when, when we went from, 732 00:40:29,215 --> 00:40:33,435 you know, people calling their broker on the phone to, you know, automated 733 00:40:33,605 --> 00:40:37,724 algorithmic trading, the amount of trades went up by orders of magnitude. 734 00:40:38,020 --> 00:40:42,240 And so you can sort of expect that something similar might happen with, 735 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:43,630 with something like Intellidger. 736 00:40:44,060 --> 00:40:47,760 And then once you have that, then you kind of work backwards and you say 737 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:54,119 like, okay, well, you know, clearly it's not going to be a person swiping 738 00:40:54,119 --> 00:40:58,160 a credit card for each one of those 10, 000 more transactions, because then 739 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,690 you would be spending your entire day just swiping your card over and over. 740 00:41:00,690 --> 00:41:02,290 So that's clearly not what it would be, right? 741 00:41:02,655 --> 00:41:04,725 So it'd have to be something more automated. 742 00:41:04,755 --> 00:41:10,565 So maybe you have like different systems and protocols where like your devices 743 00:41:10,565 --> 00:41:12,044 are making payments to each other. 744 00:41:12,430 --> 00:41:15,320 You know, like you're traveling and you need internet access and you don't 745 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,430 have any relationship with a local provider, but your phone has some money. 746 00:41:18,430 --> 00:41:21,520 And so it just goes out and buys a internet connection from somebody. 747 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,769 And maybe not even a long running subscription, just like as long as 748 00:41:25,769 --> 00:41:28,670 you need it while you need it, it just pays a little bit, things of 749 00:41:28,670 --> 00:41:30,949 that nature, um, might be unlocked. 750 00:41:30,969 --> 00:41:31,899 I think one. 751 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:37,810 Thing that while being a buzzword right now, I think is very relevant here is, 752 00:41:37,850 --> 00:41:44,180 is sort of AI and computers having more dynamic things that they can do, right? 753 00:41:44,190 --> 00:41:46,860 Like previously you had some, it's very rigid algorithms where like some 754 00:41:46,860 --> 00:41:49,869 programmer would go and build things in a certain way, and then it would, 755 00:41:49,969 --> 00:41:51,399 if you could write executed like that. 756 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,480 But that is really opening up with a lot more possibility today. 757 00:41:55,890 --> 00:42:00,379 And so I could see a lot of payments being made by some kind 758 00:42:00,379 --> 00:42:03,065 of, you know, AI type actors. 759 00:42:03,065 --> 00:42:06,605 Like, I don't really like the term AI cause it's for reasons that like, it's 760 00:42:06,605 --> 00:42:09,495 not really artificial and it's really just a different kind of intelligence. 761 00:42:10,045 --> 00:42:14,925 But I like the idea that like, we would have this vibrant marketplace 762 00:42:14,925 --> 00:42:16,925 of, of computers paying each other. 763 00:42:16,955 --> 00:42:19,854 That's, that's, um, something I think would happen. 764 00:42:20,315 --> 00:42:24,384 There was actually a tweet recently by, I think it was Andrej Karpathy, who's a 765 00:42:24,625 --> 00:42:28,764 well known person in the AI space, that a lot of people sent me because it was 766 00:42:29,354 --> 00:42:32,895 something to the effect of like, if you could lower the transaction costs, then 767 00:42:32,905 --> 00:42:36,645 the volume would explode, which I, he's pointing to that exact same principle. 768 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,570 Sabine: Well, thank you both for taking a stab at those very deep questions. 769 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:45,470 What kind of other deep discussions are you looking forward to at the summit 770 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:47,110 that is happening end of October? 771 00:42:47,740 --> 00:42:50,830 Stefan: Yeah, just wait until I start telling you about like liquidity 772 00:42:50,830 --> 00:42:51,899 management, stuff like that. 773 00:42:51,900 --> 00:42:53,489 It'll be a deep discussion to the show. 774 00:42:53,489 --> 00:42:53,939 Trust me, 775 00:42:54,089 --> 00:42:56,269 Sabine: Evan, that sounds like you really want to hack. 776 00:42:56,309 --> 00:42:59,070 So you should also join us for the hackathon that is happening 777 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:00,424 the week and before the summit. 778 00:43:03,585 --> 00:43:07,825 Stefan: There's one more thing I'm looking forward to talking about is IL DCP. 779 00:43:08,305 --> 00:43:12,695 I think it's one of the protocols that's gotten the least amount of love relative 780 00:43:12,695 --> 00:43:15,144 to what it could be just to explain. 781 00:43:15,145 --> 00:43:19,615 So IL DCP is the Intellidger Dynamic Configuration Protocol. 782 00:43:19,975 --> 00:43:23,405 What it's used for is if you are connecting. 783 00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,300 Like you, you, you spin up some Intellidger enable software. 784 00:43:28,380 --> 00:43:29,970 Then you say, here's your Intellidger connection. 785 00:43:31,070 --> 00:43:33,710 It would be nice if you didn't have to also tell it like, and 786 00:43:33,730 --> 00:43:35,230 you should use this currency. 787 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:39,200 And this is the amount of units per currency that, that are expressed. 788 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,900 And this is your address and a bunch of other things. 789 00:43:42,140 --> 00:43:44,140 If it could just detect all of that automatically. 790 00:43:44,140 --> 00:43:47,540 And so that's what ILDCP is meant for right now. 791 00:43:47,540 --> 00:43:51,290 It really does only information about the currency and your address. 792 00:43:51,695 --> 00:43:55,315 But there is a lot of other stuff that it could communicate. 793 00:43:55,325 --> 00:43:58,885 One of the things I ran into recently was the maximum size that 794 00:43:58,885 --> 00:44:00,325 an intellectual packet could be. 795 00:44:00,545 --> 00:44:02,684 That could be something that I'll, DCP tells you. 796 00:44:03,074 --> 00:44:06,625 It could be, like, what is the nature of the relationship between you 797 00:44:06,625 --> 00:44:07,955 and the person you're connected to? 798 00:44:07,984 --> 00:44:09,355 Are they sort of your provider? 799 00:44:09,365 --> 00:44:10,824 Are they an equal peer? 800 00:44:10,845 --> 00:44:11,725 Are they a client? 801 00:44:12,190 --> 00:44:13,850 Um, so you can sort of figure that out. 802 00:44:14,020 --> 00:44:17,540 So there's a lot of stuff like that, that I think could make intelliJ a lot more 803 00:44:17,770 --> 00:44:21,719 frictionless to use and set up and kind of, you know, make everything kind of 804 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:23,819 feel a bit more automatic and magical. 805 00:44:24,020 --> 00:44:25,290 If we implement it to all of that. 806 00:44:25,900 --> 00:44:26,540 Sabine: Fun story. 807 00:44:26,570 --> 00:44:30,320 ILDCP was actually deprecated by mistake for a little 808 00:44:30,330 --> 00:44:31,950 while, and then we revived it. 809 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,110 So in the GitHub repo, it was gone. 810 00:44:34,110 --> 00:44:34,999 And 811 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,260 Stefan: I think that proves my point about like ILDCP has not 812 00:44:38,260 --> 00:44:39,660 received the love that it deserves. 813 00:44:39,660 --> 00:44:41,310 It is such an essential protocol. 814 00:44:41,715 --> 00:44:43,275 And has so much potential. 815 00:44:43,575 --> 00:44:43,905 Sabine: Yes. 816 00:44:43,935 --> 00:44:47,795 And I'm very much looking forward to talking about ILDCP and all the other 817 00:44:48,245 --> 00:44:53,535 protocols at the summit and the hackathon the week before and the, like, then 818 00:44:53,535 --> 00:44:57,264 there's a week in between, so we get a lot of time to talk about all those things. 819 00:44:57,624 --> 00:45:00,964 But I also want to thank you already for talking to me today. 820 00:45:00,965 --> 00:45:02,355 This was so much fun. 821 00:45:02,745 --> 00:45:03,755 Um, I learned a lot. 822 00:45:03,940 --> 00:45:06,180 I'm very much looking forward to seeing you soon. 823 00:45:06,500 --> 00:45:08,000 Stefan: What are we wrapping up already? 824 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:08,250 Okay. 825 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:09,450 Well, it was a lot of fun. 826 00:45:09,450 --> 00:45:09,950 Thank you. 827 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:11,370 for hosting. 828 00:45:11,370 --> 00:45:14,819 Hey, 829 00:45:14,820 --> 00:45:15,879 Ayesha: it's Aisha again. 830 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,969 We wanted to remind you that we are nearing the intellectual summit. 831 00:45:19,290 --> 00:45:22,549 Join the open payments movement where a global community of change 832 00:45:22,549 --> 00:45:25,649 makers is re imagining the future of digital financial systems. 833 00:45:25,650 --> 00:45:31,110 Our official summit will kick off on October 26th with a dynamic schedule of 834 00:45:31,110 --> 00:45:33,370 inspiring speakers and engaging sessions. 835 00:45:33,810 --> 00:45:37,770 We also welcome you to our pre summit activities, including a community open 836 00:45:37,770 --> 00:45:43,630 house on October 25th and an ILP hackathon on October 19th and October 20th. 837 00:45:44,650 --> 00:45:47,090 Lawil: If you're unable to attend the summit, but you would still love 838 00:45:47,090 --> 00:45:50,190 to follow our sessions, then you can find the Interledger Summits live 839 00:45:50,190 --> 00:45:54,590 stream and previous recordings on the Interledger Foundation's YouTube channel. 840 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,360 For more information, follow the link in the episode description. 841 00:45:58,879 --> 00:46:01,490 And as always, thank you for tuning in to another episode 842 00:46:01,490 --> 00:46:02,260 of the Future Money Podcast. 843 00:46:03,270 --> 00:46:07,380 We'd love for you to like and subscribe wherever you listen to your pods.