1 00:00:01,870 --> 00:00:08,370 Esther: I grew up in not the wealthiest of places, but I have seen how 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:15,610 communities have been able to support each other through collaborative 3 00:00:16,309 --> 00:00:18,490 mechanisms that they create. 4 00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:24,350 And this is something called village banking in Zambia or Chilimbas. 5 00:00:25,220 --> 00:00:31,980 So, village banking is where you put money together with a group of trusted friends. 6 00:00:31,980 --> 00:00:35,720 You come together and put money towards savings. 7 00:00:35,900 --> 00:00:38,379 So, each month you're depositing something. 8 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:40,859 So, there are different concepts. 9 00:00:40,870 --> 00:00:42,819 Some of them are profit making. 10 00:00:42,879 --> 00:00:44,560 Others are simply for savings. 11 00:00:45,140 --> 00:00:49,980 And there are others which are more geared towards ceremonies, uh, 12 00:00:50,010 --> 00:00:53,430 like births, funerals, marriages. 13 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:59,420 So it's really a communal way of supporting each other and it's 14 00:00:59,429 --> 00:01:07,184 centered on trust and it's centered on decentralization and it's also Focused on 15 00:01:07,235 --> 00:01:10,565 a bottom up approach where everyone wins. 16 00:01:13,574 --> 00:01:17,124 Lawil: Welcome to the Future Money Podcast presented by the Intellectual Foundation, 17 00:01:17,134 --> 00:01:20,994 where we invite people of all backgrounds and disciplines to imagine what a 18 00:01:20,994 --> 00:01:22,675 financial inclusive future might be. 19 00:01:22,985 --> 00:01:25,904 I'm Nawal Karama, the Program Officer of the Intellectual Foundation. 20 00:01:26,220 --> 00:01:28,690 Hollis: I'm Hollis Wong Ware, a community ambassador with 21 00:01:28,690 --> 00:01:29,850 the Interledger Foundation. 22 00:01:30,420 --> 00:01:31,160 This season 23 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,420 Lawil: we're focusing on the creative arts and in this episode we are 24 00:01:34,420 --> 00:01:36,210 in conversation with Esther Mwema. 25 00:01:36,579 --> 00:01:39,889 Hollis: She will be sharing about her project Sekula Sonke, Living 26 00:01:39,900 --> 00:01:43,660 Archives of Afrofuturist Village Banking, which she created together 27 00:01:43,660 --> 00:01:48,010 with John Adam Chen in three different communities in Zambia and South Africa. 28 00:01:48,010 --> 00:01:50,990 We will discuss with Esther how this artwork shaped her vision 29 00:01:50,990 --> 00:01:52,480 of a financial inclusive future. 30 00:01:52,945 --> 00:01:55,825 Her pathway towards becoming an artist and how moving around the 31 00:01:55,825 --> 00:01:57,405 world has influenced her today. 32 00:02:00,475 --> 00:02:02,935 Lawil: Hey Esther, welcome to the future money podcast. 33 00:02:02,945 --> 00:02:08,475 So we're so glad to have you So one of the first questions I wanted to 34 00:02:08,475 --> 00:02:14,314 ask you is about Your presence in the tech sector and the fact that your 35 00:02:14,314 --> 00:02:18,695 first job was at an internet cafe Could you tell us more about your entry 36 00:02:18,695 --> 00:02:19,385 Esther: into this field? 37 00:02:19,920 --> 00:02:26,690 It was a very funny experience because there was no real job description. 38 00:02:26,690 --> 00:02:28,750 I was just like managing the place. 39 00:02:29,424 --> 00:02:35,965 I was sweeping, I was being a typist, and also considering at that time, uh, 40 00:02:36,005 --> 00:02:43,795 that was like 2010, 2011, the internet wasn't as widespread in the small town 41 00:02:43,795 --> 00:02:45,095 that I was living in at that time. 42 00:02:45,095 --> 00:02:46,825 I was in Zambia. 43 00:02:47,414 --> 00:02:52,325 And so a lot of people would come to internet cafes to get their 44 00:02:52,335 --> 00:02:54,925 work typed, to, to go online. 45 00:02:55,355 --> 00:02:59,244 And so I think I was one of the earliest people to actually have a. 46 00:02:59,490 --> 00:03:03,040 Facebook account because that was when Facebook was becoming popular. 47 00:03:03,470 --> 00:03:08,970 And I'll see that the internet cafe either typing someone's, uh, assignments or 48 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:15,460 dissertation and managing the different computers and I'll be on Facebook 49 00:03:15,500 --> 00:03:17,189 making friends all over the world. 50 00:03:17,219 --> 00:03:18,450 So, you know, it was a time. 51 00:03:19,100 --> 00:03:19,540 That's so 52 00:03:19,540 --> 00:03:20,020 Hollis: cool. 53 00:03:20,049 --> 00:03:27,714 And yeah, I think early days, I'm sure it felt just Like sky's the limit in terms 54 00:03:27,714 --> 00:03:31,924 of the Internet, but I'm curious how, like that initial experience working at the 55 00:03:31,924 --> 00:03:36,125 Internet cafe, learning about the web and kind of being at a hub, like a physical 56 00:03:36,125 --> 00:03:40,774 hub of your community, how that kind of led towards your interest in and passion 57 00:03:40,775 --> 00:03:46,154 for Internet governance and understanding Internet inequity, especially given 58 00:03:46,164 --> 00:03:47,975 all the places that you've studied and 59 00:03:47,975 --> 00:03:48,385 Esther: lived. 60 00:03:48,725 --> 00:03:53,845 Yeah, I think the immigrant experience is quite crucial. 61 00:03:54,495 --> 00:04:01,855 To my journey because you're looking for routedness and so having had access to 62 00:04:01,855 --> 00:04:08,205 the Internet at that time, I was exposed to different ideas to different people 63 00:04:08,215 --> 00:04:14,565 from different communities and one of the most important topics to me at that 64 00:04:14,595 --> 00:04:22,824 time and still today was about safety of girls and so because I had time and 65 00:04:22,824 --> 00:04:25,655 I Not a lot of commitments at that age. 66 00:04:25,695 --> 00:04:30,565 I started a blog called Safety First for Girls, and I was writing about 67 00:04:31,125 --> 00:04:38,005 understanding why the world works the way it does, but from a context of feminism, 68 00:04:38,035 --> 00:04:40,434 from a context of gender equality. 69 00:04:40,834 --> 00:04:45,475 And that was also at the time when feminism was not viewed in the way that 70 00:04:45,475 --> 00:04:50,495 it is today, where it's more accepted and people can easily identify as that. 71 00:04:50,885 --> 00:04:56,265 So using the Internet as a platform to share my thoughts, I was able to connect 72 00:04:56,555 --> 00:05:02,685 with other young girls from across the globe, and that's how I decided, oh, I 73 00:05:02,685 --> 00:05:08,224 don't want to be the face behind this work, but to just put it as a name where I 74 00:05:08,255 --> 00:05:14,424 hold a space and different girls can share their safety experiences, safety tips, and 75 00:05:14,424 --> 00:05:21,825 that's how it came to be that I started engaging online and building communities 76 00:05:21,865 --> 00:05:33,295 online and offline and this work built up when I studied my BA in journalism and 77 00:05:33,325 --> 00:05:39,045 from then on I have had the opportunity to apply for different experiences. 78 00:05:39,545 --> 00:05:46,375 Um, I would have to say it's It was a very challenging time in thinking about career 79 00:05:46,794 --> 00:05:52,205 and also thinking about my place in the world in terms of what I was supposed to 80 00:05:52,205 --> 00:06:00,614 do, it was easy to to choose a role that perhaps I'll just work at a TV station or 81 00:06:00,614 --> 00:06:02,774 at a radio station, all which are good. 82 00:06:03,145 --> 00:06:08,385 But I didn't feel like that encompassed my entire expression, 83 00:06:08,425 --> 00:06:09,785 what I wanted to express. 84 00:06:10,305 --> 00:06:14,645 And that's how I started my journey in using the internet. 85 00:06:14,765 --> 00:06:16,485 But there is more to that, of course. 86 00:06:17,260 --> 00:06:21,270 Hollis: Obviously, like the Internet has transformed several lifetimes 87 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:26,269 since the, you know, couple of decades that we've grown up with it as well. 88 00:06:26,559 --> 00:06:31,949 Do you remember kind of a moment where that intersection of the Internet and 89 00:06:31,989 --> 00:06:36,729 equity was really like highlighted to you or what made you interested 90 00:06:37,049 --> 00:06:39,409 in a type of activism in that space? 91 00:06:39,710 --> 00:06:40,179 Esther: Yeah. 92 00:06:40,229 --> 00:06:43,219 So I was going through different things. 93 00:06:43,219 --> 00:06:45,270 I worked for advertising firms. 94 00:06:45,270 --> 00:06:48,309 I worked for real estate firms in copywriting. 95 00:06:48,749 --> 00:06:54,729 Uh, but at some point I got, I saw an opportunity to learn about the history 96 00:06:54,729 --> 00:06:56,749 and futures of internet governance. 97 00:06:57,405 --> 00:07:01,615 Through Internet Society, and that was the first time that I actually 98 00:07:01,705 --> 00:07:03,765 heard the term Internet Governance. 99 00:07:03,805 --> 00:07:06,165 And I was like, Oh, what does this mean? 100 00:07:06,665 --> 00:07:11,385 And through that fellowship, I was able to attend the 4th Internet 101 00:07:11,385 --> 00:07:13,394 Governance Forum in Geneva, Switzerland. 102 00:07:14,309 --> 00:07:21,169 And that really opened my eyes to the disparities, to the difference between 103 00:07:21,169 --> 00:07:27,980 what happens at the grassroots level and at the high level, because we, um, when 104 00:07:27,980 --> 00:07:32,595 I say we, I'll say that the fellows from Who were selected by Internet Society 105 00:07:32,595 --> 00:07:40,025 were one of the few young people to attend that global forum, and this was 106 00:07:40,035 --> 00:07:45,915 through that experience that I and other young people decided to co create another 107 00:07:45,915 --> 00:07:48,415 organization called Digital Grassroots. 108 00:07:48,854 --> 00:07:52,805 We decided to get more young people and create pathways for young 109 00:07:52,985 --> 00:07:57,454 people in marginalized communities to engage in Internet governance. 110 00:07:57,990 --> 00:08:04,060 And looking back, obviously, starting two organizations, I'm like, oh, that is 111 00:08:04,150 --> 00:08:11,529 a lot of my childhood gone trying to do advocacy work, but at the same time, I 112 00:08:11,570 --> 00:08:18,709 recognize the importance of being there in the room when people are talking about. 113 00:08:19,335 --> 00:08:25,615 What our digital future looks like, and that's really when I started, um, 114 00:08:25,735 --> 00:08:33,404 understanding the role that I can play as an individual and also by collaborating 115 00:08:33,414 --> 00:08:36,364 with other young people through this. 116 00:08:36,534 --> 00:08:37,395 experience. 117 00:08:37,414 --> 00:08:42,924 I was also able to get a fellowship to study my master's at the 118 00:08:43,115 --> 00:08:44,265 London School of Economics. 119 00:08:44,665 --> 00:08:49,424 And my main focus of study was technology and justice. 120 00:08:49,860 --> 00:08:55,890 Because, um, there is a big gap that we don't really talk about when 121 00:08:55,890 --> 00:08:57,840 it comes to the digital ecosystem. 122 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:04,080 So my journey as a digital inequalities practitioner started in that way, and 123 00:09:04,140 --> 00:09:10,729 throughout that experience, I had always used art as a way of expressing myself. 124 00:09:11,380 --> 00:09:12,310 Could you tell us more 125 00:09:12,310 --> 00:09:15,219 Lawil: about your experience and of course your focus on digital 126 00:09:15,219 --> 00:09:15,729 Esther: inequality? 127 00:09:17,300 --> 00:09:20,840 When you grew up in Zambia and you're trying to receive money. 128 00:09:21,689 --> 00:09:22,709 For your work. 129 00:09:22,770 --> 00:09:24,890 It's difficult. 130 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:29,100 Even today, you could have a paypal account, but you would not be able 131 00:09:29,100 --> 00:09:36,160 to receive money simply because you're in Zambia and as an open 132 00:09:36,169 --> 00:09:38,149 internet leader for democracy. 133 00:09:38,505 --> 00:09:45,325 Through my work, I believe that we all need to have autonomy and the initial 134 00:09:45,325 --> 00:09:52,344 design of the internet was built to be open, interoperable, and this is 135 00:09:52,384 --> 00:09:58,915 something that is not really reflected in payment systems because it's really 136 00:09:59,195 --> 00:10:05,795 exclusionary and I really experienced that in see in running a global platform. 137 00:10:06,055 --> 00:10:12,204 organization that is based from Africa in terms of receiving grants, in terms 138 00:10:12,204 --> 00:10:17,965 of paying people, in terms of the trust that we are able to receive that is 139 00:10:17,994 --> 00:10:23,684 given to others simply based on where they're located or their nationality. 140 00:10:24,024 --> 00:10:24,834 So this also 141 00:10:24,834 --> 00:10:30,005 Lawil: makes me curious as to what role art played into your focus on digital 142 00:10:30,005 --> 00:10:30,765 Esther: inequality. 143 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:38,010 I've been doing art for the longest time and what really helped me was 144 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:44,610 recently I got an opportunity to like the dream job with the United Nations, 145 00:10:44,669 --> 00:10:52,799 UN Women, and it was a time to learn, as well as to find myself and see 146 00:10:54,059 --> 00:10:56,040 who do I want to be in the world. 147 00:10:56,050 --> 00:11:00,660 Do I have to give up a part of myself in order to succeed? 148 00:11:01,170 --> 00:11:05,680 career wise, or is there a way to combine what I love? 149 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:12,150 And so actually this, this year, I set out to say I want to do art and technology. 150 00:11:12,150 --> 00:11:18,725 I don't want them to be separate, but I want them to be combined and Opportunities 151 00:11:18,725 --> 00:11:24,175 like the Future Money grant helped me to do that because I was able to combine 152 00:11:24,185 --> 00:11:30,115 my technology and art, and I also was able to get another opportunity with 153 00:11:30,125 --> 00:11:33,314 the SeaChange Creative, um, R& D Lab. 154 00:11:34,150 --> 00:11:38,850 Where I was able to work with Digital Grassroots, my organization, to digitize 155 00:11:38,850 --> 00:11:40,630 our digital rights monopoly game. 156 00:11:41,050 --> 00:11:45,619 So, we are demystifying digital literacy, so that was exciting, 157 00:11:45,699 --> 00:11:51,650 and also an opportunity to be a Prince Claus Speed Award grantee. 158 00:11:52,590 --> 00:11:54,980 And so I was like, well, I guess. 159 00:11:55,455 --> 00:11:56,944 This is the right way to go. 160 00:11:57,525 --> 00:11:57,685 I 161 00:11:57,685 --> 00:11:58,645 Hollis: love that. 162 00:11:58,765 --> 00:12:01,165 Big congratulations for all those accolades. 163 00:12:01,165 --> 00:12:03,584 And I think that's a very relatable sentiment. 164 00:12:03,584 --> 00:12:08,755 I know Lowell and I both really feel that is just the, um, external 165 00:12:08,755 --> 00:12:13,784 pressure to compartmentalize yourself under the auspices of achievement 166 00:12:13,814 --> 00:12:19,535 or, um, making yourself almost more intelligible because sometimes it feels. 167 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:24,510 It's chaotic, both internally and externally to be both a practicing 168 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,529 artist and somebody who's working in the spaces of whether it's tech 169 00:12:28,539 --> 00:12:32,230 policy, equity, financial innovation. 170 00:12:32,610 --> 00:12:36,279 And yeah, I mean, to that end, I would love to shift towards 171 00:12:36,279 --> 00:12:39,680 talking about the project that you and your collaborator developed. 172 00:12:40,735 --> 00:12:44,615 As part of the future money grant and would love for you to share with our 173 00:12:44,615 --> 00:12:49,155 audience what the origin and initial thoughts of that project were, and then 174 00:12:49,175 --> 00:12:50,364 we can talk about what it looks like 175 00:12:50,365 --> 00:12:50,904 Esther: in practice. 176 00:12:51,324 --> 00:12:53,634 Yeah, that is exciting. 177 00:12:53,635 --> 00:12:59,915 Actually, I had a great opportunity to collaborate with john out of 10 on supply. 178 00:12:59,944 --> 00:13:04,505 So, okay, which means we grow together, leaving archives called afrofuturist. 179 00:13:06,065 --> 00:13:07,515 I grew up in. 180 00:13:07,930 --> 00:13:13,689 not the wealthiest of places, but I have seen how communities have been 181 00:13:13,709 --> 00:13:22,439 able to support each other through collaborative mechanisms that they create. 182 00:13:22,999 --> 00:13:28,794 And this is something called village banking in Zambia or Chilimbas. 183 00:13:29,065 --> 00:13:35,095 So village banking is where you put money together with a group of 184 00:13:35,115 --> 00:13:39,635 trusted friends to come together and put money towards savings. 185 00:13:39,785 --> 00:13:44,705 So each month you're depositing something, so there are different concepts. 186 00:13:44,745 --> 00:13:49,885 Some of them are profit making, others are simply for savings, and there are others 187 00:13:49,885 --> 00:13:57,485 which are more geared towards ceremonies like births, funerals, marriages. 188 00:13:57,910 --> 00:14:03,329 So it's really a communal way of supporting each other and it's 189 00:14:03,339 --> 00:14:11,099 centered on trust and it's centered on decentralization and it's also focused on 190 00:14:11,149 --> 00:14:14,520 a bottom up approach where everyone wins. 191 00:14:14,579 --> 00:14:20,140 It's open in that way and being able to collaborate with John Adams who 192 00:14:20,370 --> 00:14:25,519 has had experience in South Africa has lived there, studied there. 193 00:14:25,959 --> 00:14:31,670 We were able to think about village banking as an Afrofuturist concept. 194 00:14:32,300 --> 00:14:38,520 What does it look like when our financial systems are modeled on practices that 195 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:45,610 we've had for centuries, practices we've had pre colonial times, and so that was 196 00:14:45,610 --> 00:14:51,709 really the essence, but before we could imagine, we had to build those archives, 197 00:14:51,770 --> 00:14:58,810 and that was the essence of creating living archives of village banking, and so 198 00:14:58,810 --> 00:15:07,080 we had to Perspectives from rural township and urban setups just to collect stories. 199 00:15:07,180 --> 00:15:12,000 And what was really fascinating, and it wasn't really intentional 200 00:15:12,030 --> 00:15:19,229 in that sense, was that this was a predominantly women led initiative. 201 00:15:19,879 --> 00:15:23,850 All the groups we reach out to were predominantly led by women, and 202 00:15:23,850 --> 00:15:25,760 I think all of them were women. 203 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:30,060 And so it's not like we set out only to We've reached out to women, 204 00:15:30,060 --> 00:15:33,930 but it's like, we just wanted to know who's practicing this and how 205 00:15:33,949 --> 00:15:35,980 has it benefited their communities. 206 00:15:36,459 --> 00:15:41,889 And I really loved our approach, given that we wanted it to 207 00:15:41,889 --> 00:15:43,349 be centered on the community. 208 00:15:43,359 --> 00:15:48,139 It's really easy to create an art piece where you know the concept, so you just 209 00:15:48,395 --> 00:15:51,045 make the art based on what you know. 210 00:15:51,055 --> 00:15:55,135 But for us, it was about bringing the communities as co creators. 211 00:15:55,485 --> 00:15:57,895 And that's where the music comes in. 212 00:15:57,905 --> 00:16:00,945 That's where the constitution comes in. 213 00:16:01,555 --> 00:16:05,615 Hollis: What do you feel like springing from the realization of 214 00:16:05,655 --> 00:16:09,515 this project and its installation at the Interledger Summit? 215 00:16:09,555 --> 00:16:12,975 Um, I mean, just so that folks Um, who haven't seen it. 216 00:16:12,975 --> 00:16:17,365 I can just paint a picture like you essentially created a round table, 217 00:16:17,395 --> 00:16:23,365 um, with a tapestry hanging down and, um, it was like a really warm. 218 00:16:23,365 --> 00:16:28,115 It was like we were coming to the table, like almost to come to eat or to hang out 219 00:16:28,125 --> 00:16:32,985 or to have conversation and you featured, um, the audio of these conversations 220 00:16:32,985 --> 00:16:34,955 paired with photographs on tablets. 221 00:16:35,479 --> 00:16:39,999 Um, and I also witnessed that you and John had many conversations 222 00:16:39,999 --> 00:16:42,719 with interledger summit attendees. 223 00:16:43,150 --> 00:16:47,770 Um, and I'm curious what was kind of sparked there that you might 224 00:16:47,799 --> 00:16:49,170 understand as being like, Oh, okay. 225 00:16:49,170 --> 00:16:52,770 This was a conversation maybe I didn't anticipate, or this gave me 226 00:16:52,779 --> 00:16:57,160 an idea for how to either deepen this art piece or something else 227 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:58,420 I'd like to explore in my next 228 00:16:58,420 --> 00:16:58,719 Esther: work. 229 00:17:00,134 --> 00:17:03,925 As with every exhibition, you only know if it's the message 230 00:17:03,925 --> 00:17:05,785 is clear until you put it up. 231 00:17:06,224 --> 00:17:12,194 Many of the conversations we had was just the feeling of being at home. 232 00:17:12,625 --> 00:17:16,775 Someone saw the artwork and said, Oh, that reminds me of my grandmother. 233 00:17:17,304 --> 00:17:20,974 And others came in and said, Oh, this place looks similar to 234 00:17:20,974 --> 00:17:22,694 what we use in our community. 235 00:17:22,764 --> 00:17:28,254 And it just shows the interconnectedness of the global majority. 236 00:17:28,595 --> 00:17:31,855 Because some of the things that I thought was unique to Zambia or 237 00:17:31,855 --> 00:17:37,445 unique to South Africa actually had resonance for people who have never 238 00:17:37,445 --> 00:17:39,635 been in that part of the world. 239 00:17:39,865 --> 00:17:45,615 And it showed that we have a similar concept when we think about wealth, 240 00:17:45,654 --> 00:17:48,214 when we think about well being. 241 00:17:48,484 --> 00:17:53,134 And that's what really those conversations were about, creating. 242 00:17:53,725 --> 00:17:59,895 a healing space because most of village banking is about ceremonies and so 243 00:17:59,925 --> 00:18:06,165 this is a place where we come together to think to talk to share and that's 244 00:18:06,165 --> 00:18:11,464 why that table was there where people are coming sort of to have a meal to 245 00:18:11,465 --> 00:18:18,354 listen to stories and that's that's how we lived um a sort of um centeredness. 246 00:18:19,405 --> 00:18:24,895 And rootedness, uh, where you're rooted in your community, you're centered on 247 00:18:24,895 --> 00:18:31,054 the stories that have carried us from generations to generations, stories of 248 00:18:31,055 --> 00:18:38,905 resilience, um, stories of empowerment and stories of feminism in a culture where we. 249 00:18:39,415 --> 00:18:41,415 It's highly patriarchal. 250 00:18:41,755 --> 00:18:44,945 So that was very powerful. 251 00:18:45,004 --> 00:18:50,854 Um, part of the experience for us was also learning that there is need for 252 00:18:50,854 --> 00:18:55,024 different village banks in different communities to communicate with each 253 00:18:55,024 --> 00:18:59,534 other because we have similar concepts. 254 00:18:59,534 --> 00:19:00,634 But if we're not. 255 00:19:00,930 --> 00:19:05,430 Communicating, then those nodes, I'm putting it in quotes, the 256 00:19:05,750 --> 00:19:09,260 nodes, the intelligent nodes, those nodes are not communicating. 257 00:19:09,279 --> 00:19:13,170 There needs to be that communication and that trust built to show that 258 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:20,970 this system has been supporting our communities and Also, recognizing what 259 00:19:20,970 --> 00:19:26,170 the shortfalls of that is, it's not always a happy story when trust is 260 00:19:26,180 --> 00:19:32,669 broken and money is lost, um, there is no reinforcement or how can we support 261 00:19:32,670 --> 00:19:35,670 our communities when that happens. 262 00:19:35,965 --> 00:19:40,344 So that knowledge exchange for us is something that came up that needs to be 263 00:19:40,344 --> 00:19:46,454 done and also importantly is creating the virtual exhibition because we 264 00:19:46,454 --> 00:19:52,284 want it to be accessible to everyone and make sure that even those who, 265 00:19:52,285 --> 00:19:57,889 who, Cannot see it, are able to read the transcript and also read the 266 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:02,840 constitution, which I thought showed democracy in a very interesting way. 267 00:20:03,110 --> 00:20:07,499 Each village bank creates their own constitution and governs themselves. 268 00:20:07,539 --> 00:20:08,719 So self governance. 269 00:20:09,329 --> 00:20:10,010 How was it for the 270 00:20:10,010 --> 00:20:12,299 Lawil: community to participate within your art project? 271 00:20:12,299 --> 00:20:15,430 Because it reminds me of something I saw from an African architect. 272 00:20:15,430 --> 00:20:19,389 I believe he's from Mali and he built buildings within, uh, with his village. 273 00:20:19,919 --> 00:20:24,370 So he saw how that type of agency, kind of like changed how they 274 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:29,300 viewed his profession, but then also how they participated within 275 00:20:29,310 --> 00:20:31,460 the build of certain structures. 276 00:20:31,540 --> 00:20:33,970 Like even children helped moving bricks because they were like, 277 00:20:33,970 --> 00:20:36,840 now I have agency within this structure that we just put down. 278 00:20:37,250 --> 00:20:40,340 I'm kind of curious if kind of like you had the same experience 279 00:20:40,389 --> 00:20:41,289 while working with these 280 00:20:41,289 --> 00:20:41,659 Esther: communities. 281 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:49,130 I love to, my practice always takes an African feminist and colonial approach. 282 00:20:49,140 --> 00:20:55,030 So it can be very easy to fall into an extractive practice 283 00:20:55,050 --> 00:20:56,419 where you say, I'm the artist. 284 00:20:56,879 --> 00:20:58,129 I know what I'm doing. 285 00:20:58,580 --> 00:21:02,750 And so give me your existence and I'll present it. 286 00:21:03,290 --> 00:21:08,939 Um, and so taking a decolonial approach in this project was really 287 00:21:08,970 --> 00:21:11,850 about stepping back as an artist. 288 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:13,179 And listening. 289 00:21:13,490 --> 00:21:19,889 So I knew that we had to exhibit something and we wanted to tell 290 00:21:19,929 --> 00:21:22,060 stories and to create an archive. 291 00:21:22,429 --> 00:21:27,770 But it was really a discipline to not decide on behalf of the 292 00:21:27,770 --> 00:21:31,020 communities what that would be. 293 00:21:31,419 --> 00:21:35,370 And so when we're reaching out to people in our communities, it 294 00:21:35,370 --> 00:21:37,270 was really tell us your stories. 295 00:21:37,270 --> 00:21:39,179 You're inviting us into your homes. 296 00:21:39,179 --> 00:21:40,219 You're inviting us. 297 00:21:40,700 --> 00:21:44,929 into the practice you have created, something that has 298 00:21:44,929 --> 00:21:46,639 been sustaining your community. 299 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,000 And so that's how we went about it. 300 00:21:49,459 --> 00:21:51,980 But this method takes time. 301 00:21:52,190 --> 00:21:56,590 And as I always mentioned, it takes trust because they have to trust you as well, 302 00:21:56,590 --> 00:22:02,420 to invite you into their, their homes and to share how they do village banking, 303 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,640 because it's also finance and people. 304 00:22:04,970 --> 00:22:08,050 Sometimes I'm not the most comfortable talking about money. 305 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,780 So that's how we we set out to do it. 306 00:22:10,780 --> 00:22:15,660 It actually took a lot more time to get the meetings. 307 00:22:15,950 --> 00:22:22,320 Because we wanted it to be really a safe space on a free open space for sharing. 308 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:31,189 Um, John Adam went to Kylie child where he has roots there and we were 309 00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:36,550 able to get stories from the township setting and I was able to get stories 310 00:22:36,550 --> 00:22:42,855 from Lusaka, Zambia, where I grew up and one of my grandmother's allies and 311 00:22:42,875 --> 00:22:47,805 friends from the fellowship I was in was able to invite us to the Eastern 312 00:22:47,845 --> 00:22:54,304 Cape, Kiskamaho, and connect us to her community simply because she heard of it. 313 00:22:54,764 --> 00:22:58,864 And it was really amazing because that took a different approach than I 314 00:22:58,865 --> 00:23:05,485 expected because it was focused on she is a healer and she heals through music 315 00:23:05,605 --> 00:23:08,225 and using using the Calabash as well. 316 00:23:08,505 --> 00:23:14,665 So getting that connection to How people see wealth As a cultural 317 00:23:14,705 --> 00:23:23,175 context was really a stroke of luck and also just meant to be and 318 00:23:23,175 --> 00:23:25,094 their community was very welcoming. 319 00:23:25,394 --> 00:23:31,324 So part of our exhibition included the music that was sang as we were 320 00:23:31,774 --> 00:23:33,954 being welcomed into the space. 321 00:23:34,374 --> 00:23:37,745 The prayers that were put in as before they shared. 322 00:23:38,025 --> 00:23:39,035 Food with us. 323 00:23:39,425 --> 00:23:43,985 And also the objects that were part of the setup 324 00:23:44,375 --> 00:23:44,985 Hollis: there. 325 00:23:45,375 --> 00:23:45,955 I love that. 326 00:23:45,975 --> 00:23:48,705 And yeah, I'd love for you to just talk about that a little bit more. 327 00:23:49,315 --> 00:23:56,805 About how your own personal understanding of what wealth means and how to define 328 00:23:56,805 --> 00:24:01,704 wealth was transformed through this project and also to kind of like expound 329 00:24:01,705 --> 00:24:06,860 on the metaphor of the calabash and like the significance of Of the gourd 330 00:24:06,870 --> 00:24:12,120 and also what you see it representing within this, this model of village 331 00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:16,820 Esther: banking, having grown up in this system and understanding village banking. 332 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:23,479 For me, it was about how can we ensure that what happens? 333 00:24:24,149 --> 00:24:30,030 are in our local communities is presented in a way that has agency and 334 00:24:30,060 --> 00:24:38,020 autonomy because many times when people come into our communities they have a 335 00:24:38,139 --> 00:24:47,629 preset mind on who we are and how to present it Usually presented as people 336 00:24:47,629 --> 00:24:54,249 who need saving or people who are not technologically advanced, when ultimately 337 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,079 technology is about making life easier. 338 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,499 It's about solving a certain problem. 339 00:24:59,909 --> 00:25:06,065 And so for me, um, being part of this, it made me realize that, well, It's 340 00:25:06,075 --> 00:25:08,845 in our context is not individual. 341 00:25:08,875 --> 00:25:10,805 It's not about my savings alone. 342 00:25:11,205 --> 00:25:14,125 It's about our community growing together. 343 00:25:14,425 --> 00:25:16,084 And that's why we called it sequel. 344 00:25:16,084 --> 00:25:19,245 A song came, which is supposed to for group together. 345 00:25:19,245 --> 00:25:29,914 So participating in that sense, um, and encountering the color brush or. 346 00:25:30,935 --> 00:25:38,035 The calabash seed helped me to learn about the qualities of resilience 347 00:25:38,585 --> 00:25:44,334 because village banking is something that has been part of our generations. 348 00:25:44,334 --> 00:25:49,654 1 of the oldest people was close, who we interviewed was close to 80 and was 349 00:25:49,705 --> 00:25:55,504 talking about their grandmother practicing village banking or in South Africa. 350 00:25:55,504 --> 00:25:55,814 It's called. 351 00:25:56,495 --> 00:25:59,285 stock files, and there are different names for it. 352 00:25:59,765 --> 00:26:08,065 So it shows that even during times of oppression and suppression, we created 353 00:26:08,085 --> 00:26:18,485 systems that could be replicated in our communities and still have Long longevity 354 00:26:18,804 --> 00:26:22,024 and still be inclusive in that way. 355 00:26:22,354 --> 00:26:25,215 So I think that was the most amazing part of it. 356 00:26:25,254 --> 00:26:31,725 And it made me imagine what would it be if village, if those village banking between 357 00:26:31,774 --> 00:26:38,334 our countries in Africa with our financial systems look different because our 358 00:26:38,334 --> 00:26:41,135 countries are right now heavily in debt. 359 00:26:41,924 --> 00:26:45,855 And that shapes the policies. 360 00:26:46,415 --> 00:26:50,004 And that shapes the quality of health care, the quality 361 00:26:50,004 --> 00:26:52,574 of food, the quality of life. 362 00:26:52,575 --> 00:26:55,774 It shapes the life expectancy. 363 00:26:56,124 --> 00:27:01,084 So for me, it was not just seeing money as a currency, but seeing 364 00:27:01,084 --> 00:27:03,584 it as a system, a way of life. 365 00:27:05,134 --> 00:27:05,204 I 366 00:27:05,205 --> 00:27:07,175 Lawil: also find it, cause I thought it was interesting that you 367 00:27:07,175 --> 00:27:10,905 mentioned the fact that you keep on mentioning how important agency is. 368 00:27:11,514 --> 00:27:14,855 I always feel like within our society, or let's say modern society. 369 00:27:15,645 --> 00:27:20,075 And especially if you look at, uh, African countries or other regions in 370 00:27:20,075 --> 00:27:26,385 the global south, that's the savior complex, or what is it, modern society 371 00:27:26,385 --> 00:27:31,844 drives the savior complex because we can't understand previous animistic cultures 372 00:27:31,845 --> 00:27:36,045 that were on like European soil or Western 373 00:27:36,045 --> 00:27:36,784 Esther: soil. 374 00:27:37,065 --> 00:27:39,955 And it's also, it's a very large contra into. 375 00:27:40,564 --> 00:27:42,205 Lawil: Experience like experiencing 376 00:27:42,254 --> 00:27:43,575 Esther: life as well. 377 00:27:44,544 --> 00:27:49,254 Yeah, it's very true because the reason these archives are important 378 00:27:49,274 --> 00:27:55,995 is that it's easy to forget that these qualities that we look for in 379 00:27:56,034 --> 00:28:03,615 technology of openness, decentralization, inclusivity have always existed. 380 00:28:04,745 --> 00:28:11,065 They have been refined in our own way, in a way that fits the way of life that is. 381 00:28:11,645 --> 00:28:16,605 Uh, respectful to other humans, but also respectful to the 382 00:28:16,605 --> 00:28:18,865 environment that we live in. 383 00:28:19,305 --> 00:28:21,575 And so it's really all connected. 384 00:28:21,905 --> 00:28:28,844 And I really saw this project as enlightening and seeing the 385 00:28:28,845 --> 00:28:34,615 openness that people had to share, even when they will be perceived 386 00:28:34,655 --> 00:28:37,935 as poor in our economic terms. 387 00:28:38,074 --> 00:28:40,554 So yeah, it was, it was enlightening. 388 00:28:41,020 --> 00:28:44,560 Do you believe like village banking could kind of like change the 389 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:45,740 Lawil: epistemic 390 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:47,270 Esther: culture or knowledge base? 391 00:28:48,284 --> 00:28:53,344 It exists in many parts of the world, and one thing that the Open Studio 392 00:28:53,344 --> 00:29:00,185 at the Intellectual Summit opened for me is that it exists in not only in 393 00:29:00,185 --> 00:29:05,245 Southern Africa, it exists in West Africa, it exists in India, and even 394 00:29:05,254 --> 00:29:09,965 in the Western world, it exists as GoFundMe, though that's a different, 395 00:29:09,965 --> 00:29:16,664 different style, but it is crowdsourced financing in that sense, right. 396 00:29:16,845 --> 00:29:22,514 Um, so these systems have existed for a long time, but it's really about 397 00:29:22,544 --> 00:29:28,234 giving them the credit that they deserve, uh, and not thinking that we 398 00:29:28,234 --> 00:29:34,234 need to create new things or create payment systems based on things that 399 00:29:34,234 --> 00:29:40,025 do not exist or based on Silicon Valley's dream of what the world is. 400 00:29:40,125 --> 00:29:42,715 And this project was very important. 401 00:29:42,984 --> 00:29:49,615 These archives are important because They are reminding us of what is and they're 402 00:29:49,635 --> 00:29:56,305 giving us an opportunity to imagine what could be an imagination, I think, is one 403 00:29:56,305 --> 00:30:02,415 of the most powerful tools in shaping the future because our current economic 404 00:30:02,415 --> 00:30:09,455 system is based on something that was decided in 1944 by some countries who 405 00:30:09,455 --> 00:30:11,625 decided, let's make the World Bank. 406 00:30:11,655 --> 00:30:12,745 Let's make the IMF. 407 00:30:13,145 --> 00:30:15,014 And since then, we've been a global economy. 408 00:30:15,205 --> 00:30:20,375 Trying to our countries have been trying to recover economically, but 409 00:30:20,375 --> 00:30:25,855 it's like fighting a battle that you're not going to win because it 410 00:30:25,855 --> 00:30:28,285 was never built with us in mind. 411 00:30:28,755 --> 00:30:34,995 And so really, this project, the aim is to start our thinking because what 412 00:30:34,995 --> 00:30:37,185 we imagine is what is going to be. 413 00:30:37,455 --> 00:30:42,195 And if we don't imagine as being economically independent as. 414 00:30:42,645 --> 00:30:47,685 Country or if we don't imagine that we can have financial systems that are open 415 00:30:48,135 --> 00:30:50,525 and inclusive, then it would not happen. 416 00:30:51,075 --> 00:30:52,205 Hollis: I think that's so beautiful. 417 00:30:52,205 --> 00:30:57,575 And I completely agree with you that we have to be able to imagine what is 418 00:30:57,575 --> 00:30:59,255 possible for it to come into being. 419 00:30:59,255 --> 00:31:01,045 And I think that's like really the beauty of all of the 420 00:31:01,045 --> 00:31:02,745 projects of the future money. 421 00:31:03,305 --> 00:31:08,865 Open studios was these initial seeds of possibility and what can they inspire 422 00:31:08,865 --> 00:31:10,405 in conversation with technologists. 423 00:31:10,405 --> 00:31:15,795 So I am curious, like whether it was at the interledger summit or otherwise, if 424 00:31:15,815 --> 00:31:18,099 you had any initial seeds of like, Yeah. 425 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:19,940 Oh, what could this look like in practice? 426 00:31:19,940 --> 00:31:22,700 Like, what would this model village banking look like? 427 00:31:22,700 --> 00:31:25,380 Obviously, like you cited the ways in which we see it 428 00:31:25,420 --> 00:31:26,730 kind of pop up organically. 429 00:31:26,730 --> 00:31:27,730 Like I, so true. 430 00:31:27,730 --> 00:31:32,460 Like GoFundMe is not only a type of like collective crowdsourcing, but 431 00:31:32,460 --> 00:31:35,290 it's often filling in systemic gaps. 432 00:31:35,290 --> 00:31:35,550 Right. 433 00:31:35,550 --> 00:31:37,470 So at least pretty consistently. 434 00:31:37,810 --> 00:31:41,840 And so, yeah, I just curious about like what came to you in terms of like the 435 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:47,150 interaction between the digital and the more kind of like analog in person. 436 00:31:47,535 --> 00:31:48,875 tangible community building. 437 00:31:49,185 --> 00:31:53,354 Esther: I think what I appreciated about the method that we took, that 438 00:31:53,354 --> 00:31:59,383 Jonathan and I took to do this project is that we went in with a blank slate. 439 00:31:59,383 --> 00:32:04,348 Of course, we did research on what exists in what do people say about 440 00:32:04,348 --> 00:32:08,958 village banking, but we also went very open to learn from the communities. 441 00:32:08,958 --> 00:32:10,732 And I'll share two stories. 442 00:32:10,732 --> 00:32:17,240 The first one is from, um, Professor from Zekas, which is an accountancy 443 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:21,980 university in Lusaka, Zambia, and this professor called Prudence. 444 00:32:22,815 --> 00:32:29,275 She is working on using village banking and adopting machine learning for 445 00:32:29,315 --> 00:32:36,645 village banking to see its viability and also trying to, she has a prototype 446 00:32:36,665 --> 00:32:43,445 to build a tool for village banking and see how can people use technology 447 00:32:43,665 --> 00:32:46,765 to do village banking and what that. 448 00:32:47,530 --> 00:32:51,900 opened for me is that solutions are being made. 449 00:32:51,940 --> 00:32:53,850 They're being prototyped on the ground. 450 00:32:53,860 --> 00:32:57,810 People are using technology, uh, shaped by our own ecosystems. 451 00:32:57,810 --> 00:33:04,420 And the opportunity that I had to speak with her to learn about her research and 452 00:33:04,420 --> 00:33:11,925 her practice really showed me that art Always reflects what is being practiced. 453 00:33:12,355 --> 00:33:16,955 So even though it could be in its early stages, it means that the idea 454 00:33:16,975 --> 00:33:21,745 is already out there and it's just waiting to be captured and implemented. 455 00:33:22,095 --> 00:33:24,265 So that was one of the stories. 456 00:33:24,315 --> 00:33:30,405 And the second story was also with my colleague who is a healer and she uses 457 00:33:30,465 --> 00:33:32,965 healing to bring her community together. 458 00:33:33,385 --> 00:33:34,915 And a lot of the. 459 00:33:35,145 --> 00:33:39,795 community she brings together, also practice village banking, and it was 460 00:33:39,805 --> 00:33:47,185 seeing how she uses music as a tool and uses the calabash as a tool to create 461 00:33:47,225 --> 00:33:53,845 music, uh, to bring healing, how it connects us to our past and shows that 462 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:58,420 Wealth is not only tangible things. 463 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,210 It's also the intangible things. 464 00:34:00,620 --> 00:34:02,780 It's reminding us of our culture. 465 00:34:02,790 --> 00:34:10,010 It's reminding us that we don't have to rely on different systems for things like 466 00:34:10,020 --> 00:34:15,040 healing and mental health when we actually have those systems in our culture. 467 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:21,390 So filling in those systemic gaps in unconventional ways, it already exists. 468 00:34:21,450 --> 00:34:22,620 It just needs. 469 00:34:23,235 --> 00:34:28,735 Visibility, uh, and it needs to go into the mainstream narrative as 470 00:34:28,735 --> 00:34:31,155 well, because it is just as valid. 471 00:34:31,975 --> 00:34:33,235 Hollis: Yeah, absolutely. 472 00:34:33,465 --> 00:34:37,715 So I'm curious, based on this project, what's next for you? 473 00:34:37,715 --> 00:34:41,845 And how are you thinking about transmuting this experience into future work? 474 00:34:42,825 --> 00:34:44,765 Esther: Yeah, that is a good question. 475 00:34:44,935 --> 00:34:48,265 In terms of the next step for this project, obviously, the 476 00:34:48,265 --> 00:34:50,845 virtual exhibition is a big one. 477 00:34:51,305 --> 00:34:58,505 And part of our Our commitment was also writing a long form article that, uh, 478 00:34:58,535 --> 00:35:05,545 expands on these ideas and just shares more deeply what the lessons were. 479 00:35:06,055 --> 00:35:09,265 So that's something that we're going to be doing. 480 00:35:09,675 --> 00:35:14,705 And for us, it's always also going back to the communities and telling them, this 481 00:35:14,765 --> 00:35:17,855 is the work that you co created with us. 482 00:35:18,235 --> 00:35:20,375 And this is how you can replicate it. 483 00:35:21,020 --> 00:35:26,070 So editing the photos, putting them together, sending them back to the 484 00:35:26,070 --> 00:35:32,930 communities and obviously always collaborating with the community liaisons 485 00:35:32,930 --> 00:35:38,770 that we work with, who were amazing with translations are amazing with. 486 00:35:39,485 --> 00:35:43,865 Bringing the community together in one space, the village 487 00:35:43,875 --> 00:35:45,575 banks groups that we work with. 488 00:35:46,055 --> 00:35:49,135 They have existed for many years. 489 00:35:49,195 --> 00:35:54,355 So I believe those to be existing for many years going forward. 490 00:35:54,685 --> 00:35:58,955 So thinking about what comes next is always about going back to the 491 00:35:58,955 --> 00:36:06,645 community and seeing support looks like for them and also seeing how 492 00:36:06,685 --> 00:36:09,175 that can build into what we think of. 493 00:36:10,700 --> 00:36:17,020 open payment systems from an Afrofuturist perspective or Afrocentric perspective. 494 00:36:18,180 --> 00:36:18,360 You 495 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,000 Hollis: know, as we come to the close of this conversation, I would love to 496 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:28,150 hear any final thoughts you have about financial inclusion and thinking about. 497 00:36:28,630 --> 00:36:33,670 The communities that were part of your piece, the conversations that 498 00:36:33,670 --> 00:36:35,310 you had, the possibilities there. 499 00:36:35,310 --> 00:36:40,020 And what is your vision for a financially equitable future? 500 00:36:41,050 --> 00:36:47,030 Esther: A lot of the people we work with are somewhere in between formal 501 00:36:47,060 --> 00:36:54,440 and informal and formal engagements of interactions and informal methods 502 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,380 of interactions with their banks. 503 00:36:56,790 --> 00:36:59,050 So it's really thinking. 504 00:36:59,450 --> 00:37:07,340 How does financial inclusion connect to the wider open Internet principles 505 00:37:07,340 --> 00:37:14,640 in terms of accessibility, in terms of security, privacy and security, 506 00:37:14,990 --> 00:37:21,350 and in terms of freedom, freedom to be forgotten or permission to be forgotten, 507 00:37:21,810 --> 00:37:27,230 a lot of our financial identity is tied to our history in the Western 508 00:37:27,230 --> 00:37:31,285 world, it could be credit scores, Um, in our part of the world, this 509 00:37:31,295 --> 00:37:34,535 could be credit bureaus or, or banks. 510 00:37:35,125 --> 00:37:39,295 So it's thinking about what does financial freedom and financial 511 00:37:39,405 --> 00:37:42,305 inclusion look like without surveillance? 512 00:37:42,655 --> 00:37:47,785 What does it look like in a democratic sense where I get to choose where 513 00:37:47,785 --> 00:37:50,455 I keep my money and where it goes? 514 00:37:50,795 --> 00:37:55,845 And also thinking about is a future possible where the amount of 515 00:37:55,855 --> 00:37:59,925 money you have does not equal to. 516 00:38:00,405 --> 00:38:07,135 Having your basic needs met and how can technology make that possible? 517 00:38:07,535 --> 00:38:10,915 People talk about a universal basic income. 518 00:38:11,035 --> 00:38:17,515 Uh, and my view on that is money is not the problem because money exists. 519 00:38:19,050 --> 00:38:24,140 There's enough money to solve hunger right now, but it hasn't solved it. 520 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,960 So it's really about thinking about how are we as human beings supposed to meet 521 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:33,560 the needs of the ones who are not in the. 522 00:38:33,950 --> 00:38:35,720 Formal system. 523 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:42,110 Uh, immigrants are persons with different abilities or simply 524 00:38:42,240 --> 00:38:44,390 people who have been left out. 525 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:48,650 We're not in education or in schools or do not have their certificate. 526 00:38:49,255 --> 00:38:51,625 Uh, that's really what inclusion looks like. 527 00:38:51,645 --> 00:38:56,385 We could create an open system that works if you have a phone, but 528 00:38:56,425 --> 00:38:58,355 not everyone is able to have that. 529 00:38:58,375 --> 00:39:02,785 So maybe changing the system, what would that look like? 530 00:39:02,855 --> 00:39:05,775 And can we start that imagination now? 531 00:39:05,775 --> 00:39:09,555 So at least maybe in 10 or 15 years, we could have something different. 532 00:39:10,195 --> 00:39:11,335 I'd be excited for that. 533 00:39:12,135 --> 00:39:12,915 Yeah, me as well. 534 00:39:12,915 --> 00:39:15,285 Lawil: I can't wait to be honest for that to happen. 535 00:39:15,795 --> 00:39:18,465 And that's kind of like how we continue and how new models are 536 00:39:18,465 --> 00:39:22,735 created, but we're still doing the same thing over and over and over again. 537 00:39:23,315 --> 00:39:23,675 Yeah. 538 00:39:23,935 --> 00:39:25,715 For a couple of generations, you just get 539 00:39:25,725 --> 00:39:26,425 Esther: tired of it. 540 00:39:26,705 --> 00:39:27,105 Yeah. 541 00:39:27,105 --> 00:39:30,175 And the poor get poorer and the rich get richer and it 542 00:39:30,175 --> 00:39:32,585 just brings more social ills. 543 00:39:33,255 --> 00:39:34,965 It does very much. 544 00:39:35,305 --> 00:39:35,655 Yeah. 545 00:39:35,655 --> 00:39:41,340 But I think the change is happening and to see like the intellectual foundation 546 00:39:41,340 --> 00:39:49,040 what you're doing is already a big sign that things are changing, people's 547 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:55,825 minds are changing, and it's just about getting it into the main narrative. 548 00:39:55,865 --> 00:40:01,175 So, um, one thing I realized it's in life when, when things are changing, there's 549 00:40:01,175 --> 00:40:06,265 always a pushback because people are very comfortable with the status quo and 550 00:40:06,265 --> 00:40:09,855 saying, well, I, the risk is too high. 551 00:40:09,915 --> 00:40:13,415 Maybe we should continue as we are, but really. 552 00:40:14,100 --> 00:40:18,790 We, we are doing that push right now and just having this conversation 553 00:40:18,850 --> 00:40:20,860 is a push in that direction. 554 00:40:20,950 --> 00:40:22,120 And I'm hopeful. 555 00:40:22,570 --> 00:40:25,520 Hollis: Thank you, Esther, so much for all of your thoughtful work. 556 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,860 And thank you also for modeling what it looks like to not. 557 00:40:29,180 --> 00:40:33,510 Restrict or mute or compartmentalized parts of yourself and your 558 00:40:33,870 --> 00:40:38,510 curiosity and your imagination and your desire for innovation. 559 00:40:38,570 --> 00:40:43,520 And I think it's really inspiring to see you move forward in a space where 560 00:40:43,610 --> 00:40:48,590 you feel empowered by both your arts practice and your tech policy and equity 561 00:40:48,590 --> 00:40:49,020 Esther: lens. 562 00:40:49,270 --> 00:40:53,710 Thank you to Intelleger and to all of you who are working hard to make this 563 00:40:53,710 --> 00:40:56,300 possible because it's about also getting. 564 00:40:56,540 --> 00:41:02,130 people to agree to hosting a space like this, a space where imagination 565 00:41:02,130 --> 00:41:05,420 is possible and where trust is given. 566 00:41:05,530 --> 00:41:11,280 And I felt a lot of trust in this space and I really am grateful so much for this. 567 00:41:14,575 --> 00:41:15,005 We did it. 568 00:41:16,095 --> 00:41:16,275 We 569 00:41:16,275 --> 00:41:16,565 Hollis: did it. 570 00:41:16,785 --> 00:41:17,135 You're right. 571 00:41:17,165 --> 00:41:17,305 We 572 00:41:17,305 --> 00:41:17,405 Esther: did it. 573 00:41:17,715 --> 00:41:18,065 Yeah. 574 00:41:18,325 --> 00:41:18,355 Okay. 575 00:41:18,775 --> 00:41:19,475 Thank you. 576 00:41:19,485 --> 00:41:19,975 Amazing. 577 00:41:20,245 --> 00:41:20,505 Hollis: Awesome. 578 00:41:20,995 --> 00:41:22,525 Thank you both so much. 579 00:41:22,525 --> 00:41:23,255 This was great. 580 00:41:26,375 --> 00:41:28,675 Lawil: To learn more about the Interledger Foundation, visit our 581 00:41:28,675 --> 00:41:30,305 website where you can find all of 582 00:41:30,345 --> 00:41:31,395 Esther: the published episodes 583 00:41:31,535 --> 00:41:34,295 Hollis: and more information on our guests, grant programs, and 584 00:41:34,295 --> 00:41:36,055 our resources at interledger. 585 00:41:36,535 --> 00:41:36,775 org. 586 00:41:37,625 --> 00:41:37,945 Thank 587 00:41:37,945 --> 00:41:38,825 Lawil: you for listening.