1 00:00:05,690 --> 00:00:09,240 We talk about earning money as water and swimming in cash. 2 00:00:09,330 --> 00:00:13,280 Uh, the assets can be frozen, fortunes can vaporize. 3 00:00:13,450 --> 00:00:17,349 We talk about a trickle down economy, financial draughts. 4 00:00:17,420 --> 00:00:20,375 It's, this metaphor is already, uh, Everywhere. 5 00:00:21,735 --> 00:00:24,745 You're listening to another episode of the Future Money Podcast presented 6 00:00:24,745 --> 00:00:28,145 by the Intellectual Foundation, where we invite people of all backgrounds 7 00:00:28,175 --> 00:00:31,034 and disciplines to imagine what a financially inclusive future might be. 8 00:00:31,415 --> 00:00:32,374 I'm Hollis Wong Ware. 9 00:00:32,485 --> 00:00:33,035 I'm Labelle Karama. 10 00:00:33,585 --> 00:00:36,414 In this episode, we are in conversation with Carline 11 00:00:36,415 --> 00:00:37,574 Kingsma from Waterworks of Money. 12 00:00:37,705 --> 00:00:39,224 A collective based in the Netherlands. 13 00:00:39,665 --> 00:00:43,114 Waterworks of Money is a project that uses the metaphor of money as water. 14 00:00:43,214 --> 00:00:46,435 This visualization created by artist Carline Kingmeyer in collaboration 15 00:00:46,435 --> 00:00:50,214 with Linde and Thomas Bolle provides a beautiful accessible map of 16 00:00:50,224 --> 00:00:54,075 money and how it flows, or floods, or evaporates within our society. 17 00:00:54,644 --> 00:00:57,724 In this episode, we discuss the role of artists in making consequential 18 00:00:57,724 --> 00:01:01,575 topics such as monetary systems and financial structures more accessible 19 00:01:01,754 --> 00:01:03,295 and engaging to a broader audience. 20 00:01:03,930 --> 00:01:07,390 We explore the necessary themes to spark a larger goal and discuss 21 00:01:07,390 --> 00:01:10,000 the three feature scenarios created by the Waterworks project. 22 00:01:11,649 --> 00:01:18,249 My name is Carline Kimmerer and I'm a cartographer of society, which means 23 00:01:18,250 --> 00:01:22,929 that I make maps, cartographies, but not the traditional maps that 24 00:01:22,929 --> 00:01:29,030 you know, which map out mountain regions or cities or roads and rivers. 25 00:01:29,930 --> 00:01:36,440 I map the invisible structures and the invisible architecture and infrastructures 26 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:43,209 of our society, such as the laws that govern our institutions or the, uh, uh, 27 00:01:43,209 --> 00:01:50,130 or bureaucracies or, um, uh, yeah, other kinds of rules or the flows of money, 28 00:01:50,170 --> 00:01:55,730 for instance, which are also because they're digital, uh, uh, mainly invisible. 29 00:01:56,685 --> 00:02:01,295 Uh, and what I do by mapping all those, uh, architectures is, uh, 30 00:02:01,765 --> 00:02:09,485 trying to, um, show people how these systems work in order to, uh, uh, 31 00:02:09,555 --> 00:02:13,615 make them, uh, definitely in the case of the monetary system and the 32 00:02:13,615 --> 00:02:17,575 financial system, to bring them back to the, uh, arena after public debate. 33 00:02:19,845 --> 00:02:25,084 And I make these maps, uh, always in collaboration with, uh, with others, 34 00:02:25,085 --> 00:02:32,174 with experts, with Uh, with journalists, uh, so these, uh, cooperation teams 35 00:02:32,355 --> 00:02:37,704 are, uh, well, we have the minimum of three, uh, but, uh, it, uh, and these 36 00:02:37,704 --> 00:02:41,834 three, uh, persons, which is also the case in the project that we worked on 37 00:02:41,884 --> 00:02:45,220 for the last, uh, A couple of years. 38 00:02:45,730 --> 00:02:51,710 Um, yeah, those projects, they, uh, um, we do the research together. 39 00:02:52,410 --> 00:02:56,260 And, uh, outside that collaboration of three, there are more 40 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:01,279 alliances, so to say, of all kinds of parties who, um, help us. 41 00:03:01,730 --> 00:03:05,289 navigating through these complex structures of society. 42 00:03:05,929 --> 00:03:08,200 How did you end up in that field? 43 00:03:08,859 --> 00:03:13,530 Was it a passion before and when you were younger, or did you one day research it 44 00:03:13,730 --> 00:03:17,299 and thought, let me start, or let me try? 45 00:03:18,299 --> 00:03:22,149 I think I always, uh, when I was young, I read a lot of science 46 00:03:22,149 --> 00:03:24,820 fiction and I read a lot of utopias. 47 00:03:25,269 --> 00:03:29,915 And the combination of those Two things, and I was always making drawings. 48 00:03:30,565 --> 00:03:34,205 I think there are this aspect of what the laws and rules 49 00:03:34,215 --> 00:03:35,815 are that govern our society. 50 00:03:36,095 --> 00:03:39,114 I think, uh, that fascination already grew quite young. 51 00:03:39,655 --> 00:03:41,715 And then I, uh, became an architect. 52 00:03:42,895 --> 00:03:43,465 Architects are. 53 00:03:43,945 --> 00:03:48,775 Actually, uh, the most disastrous makers of utopia because they make kind 54 00:03:48,775 --> 00:03:55,235 of blueprint utopias, uh, like God, uh, looking at it from above and, uh, 55 00:03:55,265 --> 00:03:57,915 thinking they can create worlds like that. 56 00:03:59,155 --> 00:04:03,435 Uh, and when I was an architect, I, I was using actually the language 57 00:04:03,584 --> 00:04:07,965 of architecture to tell stories about these invisible structures. 58 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,040 So, uh, language is a very strong, architecture is a very strong 59 00:04:12,359 --> 00:04:15,150 language, especially already in metaphors, for instance. 60 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:20,070 So when you look at, uh, a lot of biblical metaphors, such as the Tower 61 00:04:20,070 --> 00:04:22,610 of Babel, they're all, uh, in the end. 62 00:04:23,185 --> 00:04:25,854 conveyed by an architecture. 63 00:04:26,674 --> 00:04:31,025 And we also use it in our language, so there's a threshold, or a door that 64 00:04:31,034 --> 00:04:37,205 opens, or a window of opportunity, and the language in which we talk 65 00:04:37,214 --> 00:04:44,255 about our lives is very much imbued by architecture, architectural metaphors. 66 00:04:44,645 --> 00:04:49,945 And I started researching our system of education and after that, our 67 00:04:49,945 --> 00:04:56,285 healthcare systems and, and then during, uh, all these different projects, it 68 00:04:56,285 --> 00:04:58,755 always somehow came down to money. 69 00:04:59,685 --> 00:05:04,835 Uh, so the systems, uh, for instance, how our educational system functions 70 00:05:04,835 --> 00:05:08,234 or does not function at the moment, and how our healthcare systems, 71 00:05:08,435 --> 00:05:12,805 uh, work, it's very much related to, uh, the architecture of money. 72 00:05:13,355 --> 00:05:16,205 And the architecture of money is a, quite a complex one, our, 73 00:05:16,884 --> 00:05:21,139 our financial, monetary, fiscal system are like, uh, yeah. 74 00:05:21,599 --> 00:05:27,109 All kinds of intertwined, uh, networks, so to say, or, or architectures. 75 00:05:28,340 --> 00:05:32,780 Uh, and so I knew that at one point I had to, uh, address this topic. 76 00:05:33,209 --> 00:05:34,210 What was your first map? 77 00:05:34,879 --> 00:05:39,259 Uh, the first map was a history of the utopian tradition. 78 00:05:39,649 --> 00:05:45,330 Actually very much because I, I studied 42, 43 utopian projects. 79 00:05:46,165 --> 00:05:50,935 And I tried to relate them to, uh, the architecture of knowledge, 80 00:05:51,335 --> 00:05:53,124 which is a one to one link. 81 00:05:53,885 --> 00:05:58,325 So the utopian projects of antiquity, for instance, they all 82 00:05:58,325 --> 00:05:59,885 have this pyramid kind of shape. 83 00:05:59,885 --> 00:06:04,134 So you have philosophers on the top and beneath that, you know, that you have 84 00:06:05,124 --> 00:06:10,465 lawmakers and below that you have the workers and the, and so on and so on. 85 00:06:10,465 --> 00:06:13,364 They, they, uh, this hierarchical structure is the structure of 86 00:06:13,364 --> 00:06:16,554 the pyramids and the architecture has, in that time, has evolved. 87 00:06:16,865 --> 00:06:21,765 very much this linear, uh, structure, uh, the architecture of knowledge has a 88 00:06:21,765 --> 00:06:26,975 linear structure, and then through time you see that these, uh, utopian stories, 89 00:06:26,975 --> 00:06:31,575 they change in In outline, so to say, and these structures of knowledge and 90 00:06:31,575 --> 00:06:34,984 also the structures of how we perceive beauty, which architecture is vital. 91 00:06:35,485 --> 00:06:38,965 They also started to change up until today, where the structure of 92 00:06:38,974 --> 00:06:42,794 knowledge has become a network from a pyramid to a tree to a network. 93 00:06:43,284 --> 00:06:47,645 And you see that these utopian visions actually come along. 94 00:06:48,985 --> 00:06:53,935 So I was, and I was also trying to see how the world that we live in is also in a way 95 00:06:53,935 --> 00:06:58,495 shaped between our Yeah, our fears and our belief and our beliefs or our fears and 96 00:06:58,525 --> 00:07:05,935 our hopes, um, which are often articulated in utopia or dystopian projects, uh, or 97 00:07:05,945 --> 00:07:11,394 hell and heaven or, uh, uh, yeah, however you make this distinction, but the things 98 00:07:11,395 --> 00:07:15,204 that we fear and the things that we hope for and these things that we fear and 99 00:07:15,204 --> 00:07:18,985 the things that we hope for, they're like twin brothers or twin sisters. 100 00:07:19,405 --> 00:07:20,565 They very much look alike. 101 00:07:20,614 --> 00:07:24,594 So, so I, I tried first to make this history. 102 00:07:24,895 --> 00:07:29,675 of Utopia as a sort of base for my, my practice on how to make. 103 00:07:30,605 --> 00:07:39,194 narrative, uh, reflections of our society and the things that we can steer towards. 104 00:07:40,125 --> 00:07:42,024 Yeah, that's, that's wonderful. 105 00:07:42,024 --> 00:07:45,574 I think I find your work to be so interesting because, you 106 00:07:45,575 --> 00:07:48,005 know, coming from an architecture background, you're essentially 107 00:07:48,065 --> 00:07:50,185 trying to map what is unmappable. 108 00:07:51,325 --> 00:07:56,445 We think of maps oftentimes as physical geographies that we're not familiar with, 109 00:07:56,475 --> 00:08:00,514 but really what you're attempting to do is make sense out of what are often. 110 00:08:01,650 --> 00:08:02,210 systems. 111 00:08:02,620 --> 00:08:05,570 Um, and so that's what I found so interesting when I first 112 00:08:05,570 --> 00:08:09,520 encountered the work that you, um, illustrated and brought to life. 113 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,070 The waterworks of money project that, um, was exhibited at 114 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,080 the future money open studios. 115 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:16,729 We missed you at the summit. 116 00:08:16,799 --> 00:08:20,079 Um, yeah. 117 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:20,520 I know. 118 00:08:20,530 --> 00:08:21,100 Well, it's amazing. 119 00:08:21,100 --> 00:08:24,520 You were working, you were working on a, on a, on a greater masterpiece there. 120 00:08:25,070 --> 00:08:28,660 Um, but I found your work to be so fascinating and so did. 121 00:08:28,945 --> 00:08:34,865 Others as well, because the work that you've created and the cartography of the 122 00:08:34,865 --> 00:08:39,985 financial system is so dense, so complex, and yet has a very, as you were saying 123 00:08:39,985 --> 00:08:47,345 before, very clear metaphor utilizing, um, as money through the system. 124 00:08:47,355 --> 00:08:51,085 So I was curious if you could just kind of take us back to the origin of that. 125 00:08:51,145 --> 00:08:53,515 It sounds like it was, it was the natural progression. 126 00:08:53,515 --> 00:08:59,305 You saw whether you were trying to understand utopias and a theoretical 127 00:08:59,305 --> 00:09:03,025 sense, or trying to understand more concrete systems, like the system 128 00:09:03,025 --> 00:09:06,685 of education, everything kind of boiled down to money in the end. 129 00:09:06,685 --> 00:09:08,745 So to illustrate money is. 130 00:09:09,065 --> 00:09:12,705 Totally made sense, but I'm sure it was a very daunting task. 131 00:09:12,715 --> 00:09:17,705 So I'm curious if you can just kind of talk about how, um, how the, how it 132 00:09:17,705 --> 00:09:22,004 started and maybe like a couple of initial challenges that you had when you first 133 00:09:22,004 --> 00:09:24,014 started out with this ambitious project. 134 00:09:24,174 --> 00:09:24,504 Yeah. 135 00:09:24,825 --> 00:09:25,065 Yeah. 136 00:09:25,065 --> 00:09:25,644 Yeah. 137 00:09:25,725 --> 00:09:31,285 Um, well, uh, it already started in 2020 and then I thought, okay, I have 138 00:09:31,285 --> 00:09:33,725 to start this topic, uh, of money. 139 00:09:34,635 --> 00:09:41,045 Uh, and then I started reading, uh, about the topic, but I very soon got lost in 140 00:09:41,045 --> 00:09:47,184 all the literature and all the theoretical schools and all the historical events. 141 00:09:47,184 --> 00:09:52,865 There are so many, there was so much that I I could not organize in my head. 142 00:09:53,844 --> 00:09:57,994 So after half a year, I, I started a more intense, uh, collaboration 143 00:09:57,994 --> 00:10:01,894 with a financial journalist, Thomas Bollen, who writes for follow 144 00:10:01,894 --> 00:10:05,885 them, a Dutch, uh, uh, journalistic platform called follow the money. 145 00:10:06,910 --> 00:10:11,179 And a, uh, professor or lector, New Finance, Daniel van der Linde, 146 00:10:11,180 --> 00:10:16,180 who also started a, a movement within the Netherlands for a public 147 00:10:16,259 --> 00:10:19,149 money system around, uh, 2016. 148 00:10:19,769 --> 00:10:24,399 Uh, and who took that quite far up until the, uh, the moment where it 149 00:10:24,499 --> 00:10:26,300 was also discussed in the parliament. 150 00:10:26,699 --> 00:10:30,829 So these two, uh, people helped me navigate in the beginning. 151 00:10:31,260 --> 00:10:34,069 And we did research, I think, for one and a half years. 152 00:10:34,510 --> 00:10:40,970 Before even starting to draw, talking to multiple banks, pension funds, 153 00:10:40,970 --> 00:10:45,610 all kinds of players in the financial markets, financial regulators, tax 154 00:10:45,610 --> 00:10:51,079 authorities, politicians, all the players within that financial landscape, 155 00:10:51,079 --> 00:10:57,460 so to say, and from there we started mapping out Um, Yeah, flow diagrams. 156 00:10:58,220 --> 00:11:03,290 So with the Watermarks of Money project, uh, there's a clear metaphor that you 157 00:11:03,290 --> 00:11:08,790 use, and you had mentioned it earlier, in terms of the metaphor of water to be 158 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:13,190 money, and to be that which is powering the financial system, and it's seen 159 00:11:13,190 --> 00:11:17,545 in a really elaborate Illustrative way in the work that you created. 160 00:11:17,755 --> 00:11:21,715 So I'm curious if you could talk more about, you know, making the world of 161 00:11:21,715 --> 00:11:25,495 money more understandable and what those leading metaphors were that 162 00:11:25,495 --> 00:11:27,715 you employed in your illustrations. 163 00:11:28,185 --> 00:11:34,475 So we indeed use this metaphor of water, uh, and we, we do that actually because 164 00:11:34,475 --> 00:11:39,785 this metaphor is already, uh, used by all the players within this financial world. 165 00:11:40,145 --> 00:11:41,075 So, um. 166 00:11:41,535 --> 00:11:46,405 We talk about earning money as water and swimming in cash, uh, the assets 167 00:11:46,405 --> 00:11:49,415 can be frozen, fortunes can vaporize. 168 00:11:49,515 --> 00:11:53,284 We talk about a trickle down economy, financial draught. 169 00:11:53,285 --> 00:11:56,155 It's, this metaphor is already everywhere. 170 00:11:56,155 --> 00:11:59,274 And also when it becomes more technical. 171 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:06,480 We still use this, this water metaphor, so we talk about liquidity and this analogy 172 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:12,230 with water is, is further strengthened when we talk about, um, when big financial 173 00:12:12,249 --> 00:12:17,500 institutions collapse, the credit dries up, the liquidity was drained, uh, 174 00:12:18,010 --> 00:12:23,030 we talk about a flow of money, about profit streams, about, about flooded 175 00:12:23,079 --> 00:12:29,415 markets, and And even, yeah, even, so every step it becomes more technical. 176 00:12:29,415 --> 00:12:34,405 So also when we talk about oceans, blue ocean and red ocean, we talk about 177 00:12:34,644 --> 00:12:37,995 ripples and the tides, uh, about waves. 178 00:12:38,785 --> 00:12:43,875 So this metaphor actually, I think, I think it was almost not possible to use 179 00:12:43,935 --> 00:12:50,195 another metaphor, uh, when you truly want to show how money flows through society. 180 00:12:51,655 --> 00:12:52,245 Definitely. 181 00:12:52,314 --> 00:12:53,495 No, it makes sense. 182 00:12:53,495 --> 00:12:57,684 And when you, when you lay out all those examples, it definitely makes sense. 183 00:12:57,704 --> 00:13:01,705 But I think the beauty of the work that you and your collaborators. 184 00:13:02,390 --> 00:13:05,940 brought to life is that you can hear these metaphors, but they're always 185 00:13:05,940 --> 00:13:08,050 used in very like discordant ways. 186 00:13:08,340 --> 00:13:12,340 But then bringing a visualizer to it really does make, again, 187 00:13:12,340 --> 00:13:17,070 this very like complex and kind of by design nonsensical system. 188 00:13:18,250 --> 00:13:21,950 or at least like able to, you know, to, to visualize and to 189 00:13:21,950 --> 00:13:24,380 understand, um, with more clarity. 190 00:13:24,430 --> 00:13:28,249 So I'm curious, like what, what were some of the challenges that you faced 191 00:13:28,250 --> 00:13:30,659 in creating such a massive work? 192 00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:35,169 What felt like the particular pain points that were, that you had to be 193 00:13:35,169 --> 00:13:37,310 creative to navigate your way through? 194 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,579 Well, first of all, I mean a map is always a simplification. 195 00:13:42,060 --> 00:13:44,610 If it's not a simplification, the map would be as big as 196 00:13:44,620 --> 00:13:46,750 society itself, or even bigger. 197 00:13:47,420 --> 00:13:49,359 Uh, so it's always a simplification. 198 00:13:49,359 --> 00:13:54,729 And to make a simplification, which is not a reduction, but is, is somehow 199 00:13:54,800 --> 00:14:00,499 something which has some kind of essence, which is true to, yeah, the 200 00:14:00,499 --> 00:14:03,030 system as we see it in real life. 201 00:14:03,589 --> 00:14:07,079 Yeah, and, and, and on the other hand, the map also is only accepted 202 00:14:07,209 --> 00:14:13,349 when a lot of people agree on that the map is somehow, um, true to 203 00:14:13,359 --> 00:14:15,319 society or to the real situation. 204 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:20,120 And because we made this map in collaboration with so many parties, we 205 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,030 constantly had to iterate the diagrams. 206 00:14:23,250 --> 00:14:27,730 So before there was the map, there were hundreds of diagrams of all 207 00:14:27,730 --> 00:14:32,780 the, uh, the subsystems and they had to come together and every step 208 00:14:32,780 --> 00:14:37,340 of the way we had to reiterate and, and reflect on what we did, uh, with 209 00:14:37,380 --> 00:14:39,249 all the parties that we talked to. 210 00:14:39,330 --> 00:14:42,090 So with, with the bankers, with the scientists, with the, 211 00:14:42,150 --> 00:14:43,399 with the investment funds. 212 00:14:43,449 --> 00:14:48,820 And so you have to be very thorough, which is, uh, yeah, which is a lot 213 00:14:48,820 --> 00:14:50,610 of work and takes a lot of time. 214 00:14:51,060 --> 00:14:55,380 And I think in the end, um, so the work is of course quite. 215 00:14:56,820 --> 00:15:00,490 The premise of the work is that, uh, the growing inequality that we see 216 00:15:00,490 --> 00:15:05,720 in society today, uh, is actually for quite a substantial part created 217 00:15:05,790 --> 00:15:08,830 by the design of our money system. 218 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,629 And that players such as banks and pension funds play a substantial part in that. 219 00:15:14,259 --> 00:15:17,910 But even though this message is quite tough, because we 220 00:15:17,910 --> 00:15:19,310 created this map together. 221 00:15:19,574 --> 00:15:24,265 with all these parties, and because it is a systemic approach, not a psychological 222 00:15:24,504 --> 00:15:28,874 approach, or uh, it's not a story about bad bankers, but about architecture, 223 00:15:29,454 --> 00:15:33,515 uh, I think the story was also accepted by also this, this bitter pill, so to 224 00:15:33,515 --> 00:15:38,824 say, or this, this, this tough story was accepted by all these institutions. 225 00:15:39,535 --> 00:15:41,334 What type of change has it brought along? 226 00:15:41,375 --> 00:15:43,855 I mean, if it's being accepted by all of these institutions? 227 00:15:44,619 --> 00:15:47,660 Or did it bring, is it a dialogue or is it more? 228 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,120 So we, um, we organized. 229 00:15:50,765 --> 00:15:54,935 many workshops and lectures and all those kind of things to actually 230 00:15:54,935 --> 00:15:56,495 measure change is always difficult. 231 00:15:56,495 --> 00:16:01,895 Of course, what I hope is, uh, that we inspired, uh, well, definitely 232 00:16:01,895 --> 00:16:04,085 we brought a subject to the table. 233 00:16:04,125 --> 00:16:08,714 So when you, for instance, at the Rabobank, um, which opened its doors to 234 00:16:08,715 --> 00:16:13,535 us and we could interview everyone within the bank and we did also, um, yeah. 235 00:16:13,585 --> 00:16:18,485 And they also, uh, have the work printed seven by nine meter. 236 00:16:18,710 --> 00:16:23,720 which is the biggest print that we made in the lobby of their main office in Utrecht. 237 00:16:24,670 --> 00:16:31,250 And they, they will publish a paper on inequality and the banking system, 238 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:36,370 which is, um, well, when I started this reach with research, it was still 239 00:16:36,370 --> 00:16:38,049 a very difficult topic to talk about. 240 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,290 And, uh, now they, we did a, uh, we hosted. 241 00:16:42,985 --> 00:16:48,735 Dialogue sessions in September last year, uh, also together with, uh, yeah, 242 00:16:48,735 --> 00:16:52,825 that, that was also part of the grants that, uh, of the Intelligent Fund. 243 00:16:53,355 --> 00:16:55,595 We organized these dialogue sessions with them. 244 00:16:55,615 --> 00:16:59,335 And, uh, after that, there was a research team on, put 245 00:16:59,384 --> 00:17:00,995 by the Rabobank on this topic. 246 00:17:00,995 --> 00:17:05,395 And they worked with eight people on this paper published by Rabo Research. 247 00:17:05,825 --> 00:17:08,055 And I think the start of that research was. 248 00:17:08,550 --> 00:17:10,780 the work that we did and the story that we made. 249 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,480 I'm not sure to what it will lead. 250 00:17:14,150 --> 00:17:17,450 I mean, the improvements that need to be made within these financial 251 00:17:17,450 --> 00:17:22,730 systems are very big and often very political and, uh, and also complex. 252 00:17:22,740 --> 00:17:26,079 So they, they can very often not be done by only one party. 253 00:17:26,650 --> 00:17:27,810 Uh, but it's a problem. 254 00:17:27,819 --> 00:17:32,810 The problem is in the chain, the chain of, of, of, so, uh, 255 00:17:32,850 --> 00:17:34,360 these are very big changes, but. 256 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:39,450 Getting all the parties to the table and, uh, having them see the topic, 257 00:17:39,450 --> 00:17:44,250 acknowledge the problem and research their role in it and possible solutions. 258 00:17:44,730 --> 00:17:49,930 Well, I hope it can be a first step to, uh, making some improvements. 259 00:17:50,625 --> 00:17:53,425 Uh, for us, you are the artist, but I wonder where do you believe 260 00:17:53,425 --> 00:17:55,835 you fit into and what is your role? 261 00:17:56,235 --> 00:17:57,115 Yeah, of course. 262 00:17:57,395 --> 00:17:58,135 That's the thing. 263 00:17:58,135 --> 00:17:59,015 What is your role? 264 00:17:59,245 --> 00:18:06,155 And mine is to, to map out all this expertise and to lay the puzzle and 265 00:18:06,155 --> 00:18:08,184 to let people reflect on the whole. 266 00:18:08,765 --> 00:18:11,575 And when you, when you, yeah, when you look at the whole, the whole 267 00:18:11,575 --> 00:18:14,135 thing, you see certain mechanisms. 268 00:18:14,485 --> 00:18:14,805 Yeah. 269 00:18:14,825 --> 00:18:19,695 Uh, and these mechanisms, which, as I said, run through multiple institutions 270 00:18:20,095 --> 00:18:24,475 and are created by, uh, certain conditions that are determined by also 271 00:18:24,475 --> 00:18:29,305 regulators, and also politicians, and also, uh, I don't know, uh, citizens. 272 00:18:29,635 --> 00:18:33,955 Like, by, by who, it's a whole complex organism, and you have to really zoom 273 00:18:33,955 --> 00:18:36,725 out in order to see those mechanisms. 274 00:18:37,185 --> 00:18:40,544 I truly believe, especially in the, like, throwing in the function of 275 00:18:40,544 --> 00:18:43,385 art, it's the, being the fire starter. 276 00:18:45,125 --> 00:18:48,324 And that's also where I come actually into, I wanted to ask the next 277 00:18:48,325 --> 00:18:51,345 question is, how do you believe that artists can play a role in making, 278 00:18:51,365 --> 00:18:55,375 like, these topics about monetary systems and financial structures 279 00:18:55,415 --> 00:18:57,774 more accessible and more engaging? 280 00:18:57,784 --> 00:19:01,495 Like, how do you think they could start Like if other artists have an 281 00:19:01,495 --> 00:19:05,784 interest in it, to start researching, investigating, um, the dialogue. 282 00:19:06,254 --> 00:19:07,764 Like how would Yeah, that's a good question. 283 00:19:07,784 --> 00:19:10,094 I'm, I, I, I, I'm always wondering. 284 00:19:10,625 --> 00:19:13,875 Yeah, that's a question that I ask myself constantly, of course. 285 00:19:14,545 --> 00:19:16,465 Every artist will do it in a different way. 286 00:19:17,045 --> 00:19:22,504 Uh, some people are quite good in telling these psychological, very zoomed in 287 00:19:22,505 --> 00:19:26,994 stories of, of victims, for instance, which, I mean, these kinds of stories 288 00:19:26,995 --> 00:19:31,520 were always Do well because we are able to feel, feel empathy for, for 289 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,510 these victims and, and from there on start the trigger to change something. 290 00:19:36,050 --> 00:19:39,410 Uh, for me, uh, also with my background as an architect, I try to 291 00:19:39,410 --> 00:19:44,020 focus on something, which is often the more difficult story to tell. 292 00:19:44,290 --> 00:19:45,940 And it's the systemic stories. 293 00:19:46,690 --> 00:19:46,960 Yeah. 294 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,970 And they are of course, for, for a lot of people, they're also the boring 295 00:19:50,970 --> 00:19:54,510 stories if you, especially when you write about those kind of stories. 296 00:19:54,915 --> 00:19:58,804 People will get lost and it will not be very, it will be a bit boring maybe, 297 00:19:58,945 --> 00:20:01,195 or it will become quite technical. 298 00:20:01,544 --> 00:20:05,514 And I hope that by translating it into something which is also 299 00:20:05,514 --> 00:20:08,604 beautiful, like these drawings. 300 00:20:09,415 --> 00:20:19,174 Um, that I, um, yeah, seduce people, entice, um, give this topic 20 minutes 301 00:20:19,235 --> 00:20:25,244 of your time and to watch an animation, which takes you through the map and 302 00:20:25,244 --> 00:20:30,475 that you can see, whoa, this topic that I thought that is something way out of 303 00:20:30,475 --> 00:20:35,085 my scope of, uh, interest, or that is something that it will not influence me 304 00:20:35,095 --> 00:20:37,634 is actually influencing my everyday life. 305 00:20:37,714 --> 00:20:40,735 And it's influencing the world in which I live. 306 00:20:41,389 --> 00:20:42,240 Absolutely. 307 00:20:42,300 --> 00:20:42,580 Yeah. 308 00:20:42,580 --> 00:20:49,419 I mean, I think what you provide in the visualization and the artful explanation 309 00:20:49,479 --> 00:20:55,099 and journey really illustrating the journey of how money moves in our systems. 310 00:20:55,210 --> 00:20:57,120 Um, I think it's both. 311 00:20:58,439 --> 00:21:02,900 It provides accessibility and it also provides inclusion. 312 00:21:02,910 --> 00:21:05,380 Like you're including people that don't have the technical 313 00:21:05,380 --> 00:21:08,350 understanding or might be intimidated. 314 00:21:08,630 --> 00:21:15,389 By the theories and the dryness of the research and the scholarship and um, 315 00:21:15,399 --> 00:21:21,680 the jargon And I think what you do is you include folks who we all participate 316 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:23,500 in the financial system, right? 317 00:21:23,519 --> 00:21:30,699 But so few of us feel confident to even dare to understand it And so yeah, I'm 318 00:21:30,699 --> 00:21:35,079 curious like you've displayed this work like we were fortunate enough to have 319 00:21:35,790 --> 00:21:40,040 Not just the waterworks of money as it's been but also these kind of envisioned 320 00:21:40,050 --> 00:21:44,520 future scenarios the three future scenarios that you each brought to life 321 00:21:44,549 --> 00:21:48,950 kind of forecasting or projecting what could be possible and it kind of reminds 322 00:21:48,950 --> 00:21:54,449 me of the description of Your first work that you were talking about Right. 323 00:21:54,459 --> 00:21:59,830 Um, and so i'm curious like Yeah dystopia So i'm curious. 324 00:21:59,910 --> 00:22:03,780 Yeah, like what the reaction has been like how i'd love to hear about like 325 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:10,040 Any kind of interaction with the piece from folks that aren't otherwise in the 326 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:15,050 conversation like people who are not Economists or people who were this is 327 00:22:15,050 --> 00:22:20,160 not their area of study or expertise What have you seen and experienced 328 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:21,700 when people experience the work? 329 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,389 You're completely right in saying that it's about inclusion because 330 00:22:28,409 --> 00:22:32,510 Um, we, that's, that's, that's totally what we are trying to do. 331 00:22:32,540 --> 00:22:37,670 So make this topic accessible again, not only as a participant in this financial 332 00:22:37,670 --> 00:22:40,629 system, but also as a voting citizen. 333 00:22:41,439 --> 00:22:45,120 So it should also be a topic in the sense that we can collectively 334 00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:50,139 decide this money system in this specific architecture is not. 335 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,490 It's not working for us, it's not inclusive, it's not, uh, uh, uh, 336 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:56,580 contributing to a sustainable economy. 337 00:22:57,210 --> 00:22:59,280 Um, we want something else. 338 00:22:59,490 --> 00:23:03,930 And then you come to the, to the next step, which is maybe even 339 00:23:03,940 --> 00:23:08,410 harder than understanding the current system, which is already hard. 340 00:23:09,179 --> 00:23:14,389 Um, and that's envisioning or being able to imagine something different. 341 00:23:15,390 --> 00:23:20,250 And, as I said already in the introduction, uh, about this first work, 342 00:23:20,250 --> 00:23:26,450 The History of Utopia, uh, envisioning a future scenario, or a future, uh, is, 343 00:23:26,530 --> 00:23:28,480 uh, something, is a tricky business. 344 00:23:29,629 --> 00:23:37,354 Because you, um, always make a, Simplification, of course, uh, of 345 00:23:37,384 --> 00:23:43,584 a very large system which has grown over time, um, yeah, and you are, 346 00:23:43,934 --> 00:23:46,975 you are, um, proposing something new. 347 00:23:47,415 --> 00:23:52,164 So what, yeah, what we decided to do is to come up with three 348 00:23:52,394 --> 00:23:54,405 completely different future scenarios. 349 00:23:54,955 --> 00:23:58,945 Yeah, they are on an ideological scale, they are, uh, completely 350 00:23:59,055 --> 00:23:59,945 different from each other. 351 00:23:59,945 --> 00:24:03,574 They propose three completely different kind of solutions to, so 352 00:24:03,574 --> 00:24:05,094 they also have a different experience. 353 00:24:05,414 --> 00:24:08,364 Uh, analysis of what is wrong in our now. 354 00:24:09,844 --> 00:24:13,814 Yeah, and, and, oh, and what Hollis asked, what I, what I forgot now to, 355 00:24:13,824 --> 00:24:19,624 uh, reflect upon is, we, what we saw in also, by, by presenting these, uh, 356 00:24:19,624 --> 00:24:23,634 different future scenarios, uh, because they're also, they're all, all three 357 00:24:23,634 --> 00:24:27,604 of them are also a bit funny and a bit weird, uh, but they have very different, 358 00:24:28,210 --> 00:24:33,330 Systemic solutions, uh, people responded quite, uh, well, also always with a bit, 359 00:24:33,580 --> 00:24:38,789 a bit laughing and sometimes also, uh, saying that, that, that the solutions 360 00:24:38,790 --> 00:24:42,480 are also quite scary, but then they also came to the conclusion that the system 361 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,560 that we have now is also quite extreme. 362 00:24:44,770 --> 00:24:47,739 So that's also a very beautiful, there's a beautiful conclusion, of course, 363 00:24:47,740 --> 00:24:53,610 uh, uh, we have now a system in which private companies, our banks create. 364 00:24:54,355 --> 00:24:55,915 the substantial part of our money. 365 00:24:55,945 --> 00:25:00,315 That's quite an extreme scenario if you put them as one of the, as 366 00:25:00,435 --> 00:25:04,605 a fourth scenario next to the three scenarios that we also proposed. 367 00:25:05,774 --> 00:25:11,035 So that's already, yeah, it becomes actually a different lens again through 368 00:25:11,035 --> 00:25:13,495 which you can look to our society now. 369 00:25:13,975 --> 00:25:19,429 And it gives you some tools to talk about Your options for the future 370 00:25:19,780 --> 00:25:21,460 does this answer your question? 371 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:28,309 It does and I think what I really enjoyed hearing about what you just shared is the 372 00:25:28,309 --> 00:25:37,090 humor and kind of the ability to I think again like we think of these systems As 373 00:25:37,100 --> 00:25:43,139 so severe And so intellectual and I think that's like, you know back to the earlier 374 00:25:43,139 --> 00:25:47,100 conversation we were having about the the power of bringing an artistic lens to 375 00:25:47,100 --> 00:25:53,845 these dialogues like Being able to have like a full range of like human reaction 376 00:25:53,885 --> 00:26:01,135 to exactly as you said like the extremity like the extreme nature of The financial 377 00:26:01,135 --> 00:26:06,014 system as it is today that we normalize but ultimately when we see it visualized 378 00:26:06,044 --> 00:26:09,145 we recognize like how Extreme it is. 379 00:26:09,485 --> 00:26:13,205 So I think that there's there's something really to be said about 380 00:26:13,205 --> 00:26:15,205 like, how can we kind of infuse? 381 00:26:16,230 --> 00:26:24,620 human understanding into finance period and not pretend like it's just this, you 382 00:26:24,620 --> 00:26:28,430 know, fully objective, empirical, and. 383 00:26:28,785 --> 00:26:33,685 You know, the rightness of finance really actually seeing it for what it is, which 384 00:26:33,685 --> 00:26:35,245 is kind of the absurdity of it all. 385 00:26:35,245 --> 00:26:38,395 And that's kind of what I, what I'm realizing as I experience the waterworks 386 00:26:38,395 --> 00:26:45,405 of money, it does feel absurdist, almost like how deeply complex and then like 387 00:26:45,405 --> 00:26:48,855 when you're seeing, you know, like, oh, the water drains out and then 388 00:26:48,855 --> 00:26:50,505 people are standing there naked or. 389 00:26:51,110 --> 00:26:53,830 You know, like, or they're, or they're drowning, you know, just 390 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,860 there's, there's this kind of, you see it in a more human lens. 391 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,139 And, and I think that is the power of art. 392 00:27:01,150 --> 00:27:03,779 And that's the reason why, you know, for us, it's so important to draw 393 00:27:03,780 --> 00:27:09,109 this connection between creativity and envisioning financial futures is like, we 394 00:27:09,110 --> 00:27:13,010 actually need to show up as people who are experiencing these systems and not just 395 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,790 with our very like analytical left brain. 396 00:27:16,810 --> 00:27:19,280 It's like, what is the actual human cost? 397 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,630 Of participating in the financial system. 398 00:27:22,630 --> 00:27:24,220 And I feel like that's what I'm hearing. 399 00:27:24,220 --> 00:27:27,580 You say is like being able to lead with like humor. 400 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,470 And at least, at the very least, being able to kind of like laugh 401 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,550 at the absurdity of it all actually allows us to start thinking about, 402 00:27:34,550 --> 00:27:37,010 okay, well, what would the system look like that's not so absurd? 403 00:27:37,260 --> 00:27:42,310 And that's very empowering also, being able to look at the absurdity 404 00:27:42,370 --> 00:27:44,700 of what is happening right now. 405 00:27:45,140 --> 00:27:46,999 I mean, that's how all these stories start. 406 00:27:47,050 --> 00:27:49,950 That's actually how the most, how the first Utopia, which is the 407 00:27:49,950 --> 00:27:54,919 one of Thomas More of 1514, which is called Utopia, also starts. 408 00:27:54,930 --> 00:27:57,589 It's a reflection on the absurdity and the absurdity. 409 00:27:57,919 --> 00:28:01,120 injustice of, uh, England of that time. 410 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:06,430 And then he sets off to find the new land, Aotopos, the new, the new 411 00:28:06,430 --> 00:28:08,670 land, and there they start anew. 412 00:28:08,740 --> 00:28:12,800 And that's also how these three utopians that we made, or these three future 413 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,520 scenarios, they also start like, they, they, first they reflect on Yeah, they 414 00:28:17,550 --> 00:28:21,489 make all these crazy holidays, for instance, in our stories, in which they 415 00:28:21,489 --> 00:28:26,849 have to recite, uh, in which there are games, uh, and the one, uh, the winner 416 00:28:26,849 --> 00:28:31,610 is the one who can recite the most pages of Basel III, which they call 417 00:28:31,610 --> 00:28:37,255 Babel III, because it's, This bloated work, which is three times the Bible, 418 00:28:38,145 --> 00:28:42,164 and it's completely unreadable, like Babel comes from, the etymology comes 419 00:28:42,164 --> 00:28:44,274 from Babel, like, not understanding. 420 00:28:45,385 --> 00:28:49,724 There are these jokes in which you, like, they reflect together on how 421 00:28:49,724 --> 00:28:53,985 crazy it was back in the day, which is of course now, that they had 422 00:28:53,985 --> 00:28:55,915 this well known failed experiment. 423 00:28:56,230 --> 00:29:01,270 Which was called, uh, uh, the Euro, which was a megalomaniac part, I don't 424 00:29:01,270 --> 00:29:06,900 know, and the whatever it takes, uh, policies that came with it or, and 425 00:29:06,949 --> 00:29:11,670 that's of course only one scenario and another scenario reflects on the 426 00:29:11,670 --> 00:29:13,470 now in a completely different light. 427 00:29:16,129 --> 00:29:20,449 Um, we made one with Janos Varoufakis, I think that's my, 428 00:29:20,570 --> 00:29:21,580 I think that's my favorite. 429 00:29:22,485 --> 00:29:27,335 Yeah, and in, in that one actually, because he, in his proposal, he, 430 00:29:27,405 --> 00:29:32,915 um, he says that shares are non tradable, uh, which, which sort of 431 00:29:33,024 --> 00:29:35,365 makes a ruin of the, the stock market. 432 00:29:35,915 --> 00:29:40,244 And, uh, and the stock market becomes this, uh, is a sort of central 433 00:29:40,475 --> 00:29:46,185 link within this completely grown out of hand, uh, financial system. 434 00:29:47,020 --> 00:29:53,130 And you see in that map in the back, the ruin of this financial landscape of the, 435 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,819 which was like, uh, or like the 80 percent has become a ruin because we don't need 436 00:29:58,379 --> 00:30:03,280 such a big financial landscape, which is only extracting from our real economy. 437 00:30:03,649 --> 00:30:06,629 And then they, you can make a Sunday afternoon walk through the 438 00:30:06,630 --> 00:30:11,340 park and it is, it's, it's a huge biodiversity park because this financial 439 00:30:11,340 --> 00:30:14,230 landscape was for multiple years. 440 00:30:14,505 --> 00:30:15,855 flooded with liquidity. 441 00:30:16,945 --> 00:30:22,545 I mean, there's there are all these kind of Yeah, I think it's really funny. 442 00:30:24,075 --> 00:30:27,335 And in another one, I mean, they have this holiday, which is called 443 00:30:27,375 --> 00:30:29,045 the end of central banking day. 444 00:30:29,465 --> 00:30:35,815 Uh, and they are, uh, um, they are, they are, um, walking in the streets, 445 00:30:35,844 --> 00:30:40,174 all dressed up as central bankers with a boring suit and a gray suit, 446 00:30:40,264 --> 00:30:42,284 gray suit and a, and a, and a tie. 447 00:30:42,324 --> 00:30:45,705 And, and they are, um, dragging this huge. 448 00:30:46,090 --> 00:30:49,300 balloon, which has, which, which looks like Alan Greenspan. 449 00:30:49,770 --> 00:30:53,190 Uh, and yeah, I mean, there are all these small things, which 450 00:30:53,190 --> 00:30:56,860 are of course a bit absurd, but then they have a quite serious. 451 00:30:56,909 --> 00:30:57,549 Definitely. 452 00:30:57,550 --> 00:30:57,850 Yeah. 453 00:30:57,850 --> 00:30:59,990 I think it's the ability to comment, right? 454 00:31:00,010 --> 00:31:03,874 Again, like, I think it's so difficult for those of us who are not. 455 00:31:04,295 --> 00:31:10,035 Studied economists to feel like we even have the ability to understand 456 00:31:10,035 --> 00:31:14,155 our financial systems that we operate within, let alone comment 457 00:31:14,155 --> 00:31:15,785 on them or even critique them. 458 00:31:16,225 --> 00:31:20,635 Um, and I think that that's, you know, the beauty in what we were just talking 459 00:31:20,645 --> 00:31:22,445 about earlier, like in terms of. 460 00:31:22,890 --> 00:31:27,160 The ability for this work to be an act of inclusion itself. 461 00:31:27,190 --> 00:31:31,120 And so for us, like the future money project is really, it's 462 00:31:31,130 --> 00:31:32,790 all about financial inclusion. 463 00:31:33,100 --> 00:31:36,890 And if we're creating financial systems in the future that 464 00:31:36,890 --> 00:31:38,519 are not leaving people behind. 465 00:31:38,790 --> 00:31:44,520 That are rejecting this idea that economic, um, you know, disparity is 466 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,990 essential for progress and growth, right? 467 00:31:47,300 --> 00:31:53,370 We're thinking about how do we create financial systems that genuinely respect 468 00:31:53,509 --> 00:31:56,830 and seek to bring along everybody. 469 00:31:57,230 --> 00:31:59,779 Um, so I'm curious, like from your perspective. 470 00:32:00,125 --> 00:32:06,035 As a cartographer, as somebody who's really invested years into making this 471 00:32:06,045 --> 00:32:12,464 system of maybe not completely sensical, at least like visually understandable. 472 00:32:12,775 --> 00:32:17,095 Um, what is your vision for a financially inclusive future? 473 00:32:17,885 --> 00:32:19,285 I think it's very problematic. 474 00:32:19,375 --> 00:32:25,850 That's that there are all these mechanisms which are highly, uh, unfair and, uh, And, 475 00:32:25,890 --> 00:32:28,470 and, and contribute to growing inequality. 476 00:32:28,810 --> 00:32:33,410 So I think we should look for a, for a system in which that 477 00:32:33,410 --> 00:32:34,600 is not happening anymore. 478 00:32:35,009 --> 00:32:37,189 In which we don't create these mountains of debt. 479 00:32:37,910 --> 00:32:41,730 In which it's not easy for the rich people to become even more richer. 480 00:32:41,740 --> 00:32:45,909 In which we do not tax work more than wealth. 481 00:32:46,119 --> 00:32:49,620 There are so many injustices and there are so many solutions. 482 00:32:50,310 --> 00:32:56,810 I find it difficult to, in a short time, sketch the perfect, uh, future scenario. 483 00:32:57,210 --> 00:33:00,060 It's not about kind of like finding perfection in it. 484 00:33:00,060 --> 00:33:03,799 It's more about if you would like lie on your sofa, you would dream 485 00:33:03,799 --> 00:33:05,719 about what the future would be. 486 00:33:07,569 --> 00:33:08,429 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 487 00:33:08,509 --> 00:33:08,839 Okay. 488 00:33:09,249 --> 00:33:09,539 Yeah. 489 00:33:09,539 --> 00:33:16,945 No, maybe, uh, starting from what I see as a central problem, um, Which is, uh, 490 00:33:17,045 --> 00:33:22,705 that it's mostly commercial, uh, uh, parties now, uh, commercial banks who 491 00:33:22,705 --> 00:33:27,215 create the money and also allocate the money and also determine who have access 492 00:33:27,425 --> 00:33:31,584 to this, uh, money system, even to, or even to a bank account or to a loan. 493 00:33:32,294 --> 00:33:33,934 Uh, I think that's very problematic. 494 00:33:34,335 --> 00:33:36,655 Because for a long time we were all convinced that the 495 00:33:36,655 --> 00:33:38,005 market could solve anything. 496 00:33:38,545 --> 00:33:42,780 Uh, and now, now it turns out that it's Yeah, well, not, not true. 497 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:48,590 And, um, uh, these commercial parties, they have mainly, 498 00:33:48,690 --> 00:33:50,380 uh, a financial interest. 499 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:56,550 They mainly want to see financial returns and, uh, they create money 500 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,300 for projects which are, which don't, uh, yeah, which have, um, 501 00:34:02,615 --> 00:34:07,075 financial gains and not so much societal or ecological gains. 502 00:34:08,075 --> 00:34:15,224 And I think, yeah, I think that rights to create and allocate money should not lay 503 00:34:15,224 --> 00:34:17,704 in the hands of only commercial parties. 504 00:34:17,754 --> 00:34:22,695 I think that's Digital Europe could be a solution to that, but not how it is, 505 00:34:22,995 --> 00:34:25,395 uh, yeah, not the design as it is today. 506 00:34:26,445 --> 00:34:31,275 And then there are multiple solutions to that problem, I think. 507 00:34:32,105 --> 00:34:36,624 And one of them is to create a public money system next to this 508 00:34:36,965 --> 00:34:39,825 private money, money system. 509 00:34:40,885 --> 00:34:45,025 Another one is to, I don't know, to set up different kind of rules 510 00:34:45,025 --> 00:34:50,484 to Uh, do more credit guidance, uh, so that money flows to things that. 511 00:34:50,895 --> 00:34:54,955 society also benefits from, and not only to, uh, things that 512 00:34:54,955 --> 00:34:57,035 are commercially, uh, working. 513 00:34:57,805 --> 00:34:59,625 That, that should be one of the key. 514 00:34:59,625 --> 00:35:03,425 And, and, and also within this system, it's not only the allocation that is 515 00:35:03,425 --> 00:35:07,935 wrong, but it's also, of course, this banking sector is very unstable and, 516 00:35:08,405 --> 00:35:14,390 uh, is completely backed and held alive by, uh, the lifelines of the, uh. 517 00:35:15,870 --> 00:35:18,020 Yeah, it's unfair and problematic as well. 518 00:35:18,020 --> 00:35:21,810 Yeah, yeah, yeah, there are constantly these private gains and public costs. 519 00:35:21,810 --> 00:35:28,979 Well, I think that's so obviously unfair, whether you are a socialist or a liberal. 520 00:35:29,980 --> 00:35:33,590 doesn't matter what kind of ideological spectrum you're where 521 00:35:33,590 --> 00:35:36,640 you are at the ideological scale. 522 00:35:37,170 --> 00:35:41,799 Uh, I think for every one that's, if you truly understand that you, 523 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,949 you can agree that that's not fair. 524 00:35:44,470 --> 00:35:45,270 I completely agree. 525 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,549 Thank you so much for answering the next question. 526 00:35:47,709 --> 00:35:50,550 It's a very difficult question because we ask people to three 527 00:35:50,710 --> 00:35:52,210 and then it's like, but no, 528 00:35:54,570 --> 00:35:57,270 it's a, yeah, it's a, but thank you so much for answering this one. 529 00:35:58,065 --> 00:36:03,735 I'm wondering if you want to just share any work, obviously you are, you 530 00:36:03,735 --> 00:36:08,315 just had a baby so that's some, that's some new work that you are developing 531 00:36:08,315 --> 00:36:13,325 currently, but I'm wondering, um, I'm wondering if you want to share, um, 532 00:36:13,334 --> 00:36:18,225 what's next for you, um, what other, what other systems you're hoping 533 00:36:18,235 --> 00:36:20,835 to, to, uh, map out in the future? 534 00:36:22,045 --> 00:36:27,310 Well, we're still, um, Staying quite close to this topic, I 535 00:36:27,310 --> 00:36:30,550 think we're still finishing also some products at the moment. 536 00:36:30,550 --> 00:36:33,329 They are almost done on the future scenarios. 537 00:36:33,329 --> 00:36:40,400 We reiterated them over the last months and now we made these audio recordings 538 00:36:40,460 --> 00:36:45,750 and we still have to turn some of them into videos and they become again a 539 00:36:45,750 --> 00:36:50,810 talking product to discuss this, uh, the architecture of the financial system. 540 00:36:51,570 --> 00:36:56,530 And I think the next steps, which are also, of course, um, we had a lot of 541 00:36:56,530 --> 00:36:58,320 conversations over the last weeks. 542 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,840 Well, Martijn also in Costa Rica, for instance, at the summit, 543 00:37:03,209 --> 00:37:08,020 and there, there were some also multiple new ideas to work on. 544 00:37:08,350 --> 00:37:13,940 And one of them was the architecture of the law that created the rules 545 00:37:13,990 --> 00:37:16,750 for the economy and the financial system that we have today. 546 00:37:16,810 --> 00:37:20,049 So sort of the scaffolding of the system that we have. 547 00:37:20,685 --> 00:37:25,525 how the law, um, facilitates this architecture and, uh, 548 00:37:25,555 --> 00:37:28,515 also increases inequality. 549 00:37:29,095 --> 00:37:33,295 So I think that could be a story which is completely intertwined with this story 550 00:37:33,295 --> 00:37:38,085 that we already made, with which, yeah, absolutely additional layer in the map. 551 00:37:38,444 --> 00:37:39,275 That's great. 552 00:37:39,444 --> 00:37:43,995 Well, we're excited to stay tuned to the work of your collective. 553 00:37:44,115 --> 00:37:49,594 Um, and yeah, just, we saw, we got to see firsthand how 554 00:37:49,594 --> 00:37:51,634 impactful the waterworks of money. 555 00:37:51,970 --> 00:37:55,310 Work is and then how can people follow along with your work? 556 00:37:55,310 --> 00:37:57,970 Like if they either want to experience waterworks of money or 557 00:37:57,970 --> 00:38:02,180 if they want to stay tuned for your next work Um, yeah, good question. 558 00:38:02,180 --> 00:38:04,177 Good that you bring it up. 559 00:38:04,177 --> 00:38:05,260 Uh, We have a website. 560 00:38:05,270 --> 00:38:12,085 It's called the waterwork waterworks of money And, uh, there's also at the bottom, 561 00:38:12,255 --> 00:38:18,615 uh, a list for a mailing list in which if we make a new drawing and if we make 562 00:38:18,615 --> 00:38:21,475 a new story, you will get a notification. 563 00:38:21,844 --> 00:38:24,505 And then the future scenarios, where can they be seen? 564 00:38:25,544 --> 00:38:30,445 Um, they, um, they will also be shared on that platform. 565 00:38:30,445 --> 00:38:31,465 They are already there. 566 00:38:31,940 --> 00:38:36,070 Uh, the short versions that we did the reiteration after Costa Rica, 567 00:38:36,490 --> 00:38:40,300 and they will be posted as soon as they are ready, which will be 568 00:38:42,450 --> 00:38:42,939 very soon. 569 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:47,790 Thank you, Caroline. 570 00:38:47,819 --> 00:38:49,619 Really appreciate your time. 571 00:38:49,970 --> 00:38:53,269 Thank you so much for being part of the Future Money podcast and being 572 00:38:53,269 --> 00:38:54,740 part of the Future Money cohort. 573 00:38:54,769 --> 00:38:56,894 Thank you for this conversation. 574 00:38:57,305 --> 00:38:57,875 Thank you. 575 00:39:02,595 --> 00:39:05,115 Thank you for tuning in to the Future Money podcast. 576 00:39:05,165 --> 00:39:07,395 We hope you will enjoy another one of our episodes. 577 00:39:07,395 --> 00:39:11,795 Make sure to subscribe and like the podcast on Spotify, Apple Music, or 578 00:39:11,795 --> 00:39:13,445 whenever you listen to your pods.